Alright, we got the 8th pick, options...

I wonder if Cleveland know that busts such as Kwame Brown and Olowokandi were taken with the first overall pick. If so, they might just trade it to us for McCallum, since Ray has played in the NBA.


EDIT: Here's an interesting breakdown of Smart and Wiggins in their 3 match-ups against each other. Smart will likely be gone by 8, unfortunately. Main reason I like him is his defense which is just elite in pretty much every defensive category.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article...rcus-Smart-Head-to-Head-Matchup-Analysis-4553

Video can't be embedded but is available at that link.
 
Last edited:
Dime Dropper said:
So, basically, ignore any points put to you. Like always. There's a shock.
Click to expand...

I haven't avoided your posts. I respond to some; not to others.

First, I guess you haven't read Glenn's posts over the past season. What, you have him on ignore or something? And it's not certainly not just him; a scan through IT subject matter would easily tell you that. Yeah, you could be wrong about "nobody's" anti-IT. Safe bet on that. Talk about revisionist history.

Second, your comment:

"Comparing Jimmer's athleticism to Smart's is about par for the course for your level of posting. We'll see if Smart is quick enough next season. I fully expect you to admit that you're wrong when it happens. It's not common knowledge by the way, Smart doesn't look as quick as he is because he's huge, but he gets wherever he wants. He's not Westbrook but he's above average for an NBA PG. We'll wait and see. I think he's plenty quick and will be one of the most overall athletic PGs in the NBA."

This is why I don't respond to all your posts. It's ridiculous. The point is not that Jimmer Quickness = Smart Quickness. The point is that Jimmer was overated in his quickness and ballhandling, and now Smart is being overated in his quickness, athleticism, and the faith that his jump shot is going to inevitably get better. The key word is, overated. Smart is overated in my view just like Jimmer was overated in my view. You're misreading of comparisons is so typical and that's why I don't respond.
 
Listening to all these comments, picks and moves leads me to believe PDA has all kinds of ways to go to get what he wants. Trading the pick or not trading the pick he can get tha good vet he needs, maybe move a contract, get some young talent to age, upgrade our SG void, improve defense, get another shooter, improve ball handling and moving the ball, make a significant improvement in our win/loss performance, make it a better job for Malone, keep our Cuz and teammates happy, sell more season tickets and take a big step towards fielding an exciting team for the opening of the new arena. Good luck PDA.
 
Kingster said:
I haven't avoided your posts. I respond to some; not to others.

First, I guess you haven't read Glenn's posts over the past season. What, you have him on ignore or something? And it's not certainly not just him; a scan through IT subject matter would easily tell you that. Yeah, you could be wrong about "nobody's" anti-IT. Safe bet on that. Talk about revisionist history.
Click to expand...

I don't even bother with IT threads for the most part because they're usually full of nonsense. I haven't noticed Glenn but maybe he does have something personal against IT, no idea. There's certainly not a large part of the board that is "Anti-IT" though as you put it. There is, however, a large part of the board who don't completely ignore his shortcomings, as you do. But that's another discussion.

Second, your comment:

"Comparing Jimmer's athleticism to Smart's is about par for the course for your level of posting. We'll see if Smart is quick enough next season. I fully expect you to admit that you're wrong when it happens. It's not common knowledge by the way, Smart doesn't look as quick as he is because he's huge, but he gets wherever he wants. He's not Westbrook but he's above average for an NBA PG. We'll wait and see. I think he's plenty quick and will be one of the most overall athletic PGs in the NBA."

This is why I don't respond to all your posts. It's ridiculous. The point is not that Jimmer Quickness = Smart Quickness. The point is that Jimmer was overated in his quickness and ballhandling, and now Smart is being overated in his quickness, athleticism, and the faith that his jump shot is going to inevitably get better. The key word is, overated. Smart is overated in my view just like Jimmer was overated in my view. You're misreading of comparisons is so typical and that's why I don't respond.
Click to expand...

No, you don't respond when someone points out how bizarre your logic is. You still haven't answered my point re Schroeder and what he did in the past season to warrant being worth the 8th pick. You came back with some weird point about him having played in the NBA, while none of the players in the draft have, which is just weird. You run from any posts that point out that you're wrong, and continue on in your blissful ignorance.

Re Smart and the point you just made, I really struggle to see how anyone is overrating his athleticism and quickness given that very few have actually advocated drafting him based on those qualities. His strength is undeniable though. It's not "faith" that he'll develop a solid jumpshot. "Faith" is belief without evidence. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Smart is an extremely hard worker. Plenty, plenty of players have developed solid jumpers after coming into the league. Even if he doesn't, he offers so much else that he'll still be a good player. Of course you wouldn't be able to acknowledge that since all you value is points. Saying Smart is overrated like Jimmer was overrated still makes no sense given that their games aren't even close to being similar. It's like someone who isn't a fan of Embiid saying Embiid is overrated just like Jimmer was, ie flat out stupid. Anyway, you don't have to be a fan of Smart. My problem is that you admittedly haven't even watched him play much, and your fear of him is borne out of a misplaced fear of Tyreke. It's pretty obvious.
 
Dime Dropper said:
EDIT: Here's an interesting breakdown of Smart and Wiggins in their 3 match-ups against each other. Smart will likely be gone by 8, unfortunately. Main reason I like him is his defense which is just elite in pretty much every defensive category.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article...rcus-Smart-Head-to-Head-Matchup-Analysis-4553

Video can't be embedded but is available at that link.
Click to expand...


That was basically the main reason I wanted Smart. We have all these people here asking for more Defense and when his name is brought up people hate the idea of drafting him. The way I see it is that we get a new PG and a guy that can play defense. I would think the rest of the fans here would be happy with that since most of the arguments in the last year were about how much they want to replace IT at PG and how much they wanted a defensive player. Don't get the thought process here sometimes. A lot of flip flopping. Killing two birds with one stone is all good in my book. Replace IT and replace the worst defender on the team.

But yah, I don't think Smart will be available with our pick. We will probably have a chance at Vonleh or Gordon.
 
Gary said:
That was basically the main reason I wanted Smart. We have all these people here asking for more Defense and when his name is brought up people hate the idea of drafting him. The way I see it is that we get a new PG and a guy that can play defense. I would think the rest of the fans here would be happy with that since most of the arguments in the last year were about how much they want to replace IT at PG and how much they wanted a defensive player. Don't get the thought process here sometimes. A lot of flip flopping. Killing two birds with one stone is all good in my book. Replace IT and replace the worst defender on the team.

But yah, I don't think Smart will be available with our pick. We will probably have a chance at Vonleh or Gordon.
Click to expand...

He's not a good shooter though, so apparently he's not a good player. Shooting from the PG position is clearly what wins championships, not defense, leadership, physicality, getting to the rim etc.. o_O

I do get that some don't want another rookie at PG. It's a fair point, but I really don't think we're in a position to get anyone better. A vet won't be better just because he's a vet, he has to actually be better. Smart will be a big upgrade on IT.
 
Gary said:
That was basically the main reason I wanted Smart. We have all these people here asking for more Defense and when his name is brought up people hate the idea of drafting him. The way I see it is that we get a new PG and a guy that can play defense. I would think the rest of the fans here would be happy with that since most of the arguments in the last year were about how much they want to replace IT at PG and how much they wanted a defensive player. Don't get the thought process here sometimes. A lot of flip flopping. Killing two birds with one stone is all good in my book. Replace IT and replace the worst defender on the team.

But yah, I don't think Smart will be available with our pick. We will probably have a chance at Vonleh or Gordon.
Click to expand...
.... and maybe some people are like me and not sure they want Smart at all or think our first fix-it priority is elsewhere. I don't regard myself as uh-understandable.
 
Not sure which thread to post it in, and don't want to create a whole new one.. but I have a question for the distraught among us who are so unhappy with #8:

Who do you think is going at #7 that we are so bummed to miss out on?

I am not the superfan who knows all, but this draft sure looks 8 deep to me. I remember when we missed Noah by one freaking spot and got Hawes... is this draft looking the same?

It really seems to me that #8 is virtually every bit as good as #7 - but I want to understand it better. Are people afraid we will end up "stuck with Gordon"?

If we had dropped to #9 I think we would have reason to be bummed - pick 9 in a draft that is 8 deep. But we have #8. Seems like a good player, or a good trade piece.
 
John Galt said:
Not sure which thread to post it in, and don't want to create a whole new one.. but I have a question for the distraught among us who are so unhappy with #8:

Who do you think is going at #7 that we are so bummed to miss out on?

I am not the superfan who knows all, but this draft sure looks 8 deep to me. I remember when we missed Noah by one freaking spot and got Hawes... is this draft looking the same?

It really seems to me that #8 is virtually every bit as good as #7 - but I want to understand it better. Are people afraid we will end up "stuck with Gordon"?

If we had dropped to #9 I think we would have reason to be bummed - pick 9 in a draft that is 8 deep. But we have #8. Seems like a good player, or a good trade piece.
Click to expand...

I [clearly] want Smart, and I feel his floor is to the Lakers at 7. But then he may not have gotten to us at 7, anyway. I still want to keep the pick until I see whose on the board, and even if Smart is gone we can get a good player. People are very mixed on Gordon/Vonleh.
 
Anybody think the Suns would be willing to trade us Eric Bledsoe for the 8th pick? He happens to be one of Demarcus Cousins' closest friends and old college teammate.
 
Dime Dropper said:
He's not a good shooter though, so apparently he's not a good player. Shooting from the PG position is clearly what wins championships, not defense, leadership, physicality, getting to the rim etc.. o_O

I do get that some don't want another rookie at PG. It's a fair point, but I really don't think we're in a position to get anyone better. A vet won't be better just because he's a vet, he has to actually be better. Smart will be a big upgrade on IT.
Click to expand...

Smart didn't even average 5apg in college and we want to plug him into the worst passing team in the league?

We have to remember that we have almost no shooters, no passers and no defenders. We most likely aren't going to get a 2 way player at #8. Stauskas can shoot but he's a terrible defender. Smart can defend but he's a terrible shooter. Draft either guy and we're only fixing half a problem for 1 single position.

I think the only thing we can hope for is for PDA to trade our pick along with one or two of our players for a pick in the late teens and a veteran who can fill a need on the team, whether it's shooting, passing or defense. We need to get most of the current roster out of here and bring in guys who compliment each other. This team is basically a really bad hand of poker. We we're holding a 2, 5, 8, 10 and an Ace (Cousins). Throw the other 4 cards back and hope you get dealt a good hand. There's no sense in just giving the 2 back when you're holding a hand like that.
 
Dime Dropper said:
I don't even bother with IT threads for the most part because they're usually full of nonsense. I haven't noticed Glenn but maybe he does have something personal against IT, no idea. There's certainly not a large part of the board that is "Anti-IT" though as you put it. There is, however, a large part of the board who don't completely ignore his shortcomings, as you do. But that's another discussion.

No, you don't respond when someone points out how bizarre your logic is. You still haven't answered my point re Schroeder and what he did in the past season to warrant being worth the 8th pick. You came back with some weird point about him having played in the NBA, while none of the players in the draft have, which is just weird. You run from any posts that point out that you're wrong, and continue on in your blissful ignorance.

Re Smart and the point you just made, I really struggle to see how anyone is overrating his athleticism and quickness given that very few have actually advocated drafting him based on those qualities. His strength is undeniable though. It's not "faith" that he'll develop a solid jumpshot. "Faith" is belief without evidence. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Smart is an extremely hard worker. Plenty, plenty of players have developed solid jumpers after coming into the league. Even if he doesn't, he offers so much else that he'll still be a good player. Of course you wouldn't be able to acknowledge that since all you value is points. Saying Smart is overrated like Jimmer was overrated still makes no sense given that their games aren't even close to being similar. It's like someone who isn't a fan of Embiid saying Embiid is overrated just like Jimmer was, ie flat out stupid. Anyway, you don't have to be a fan of Smart. My problem is that you admittedly haven't even watched him play much, and your fear of him is borne out of a misplaced fear of Tyreke. It's pretty obvious.
Click to expand...

Another bunch of BS. It's a good thing to read first and assert second. I don't ignore his shortcomings. I just don't overweight them. There is a distinction.
I like Schroeder better than Ennis or Smart, who haven't stepped a foot in the NBA. He has tons more quickness than either one of them, which I do weight heavily in my analysis of a player. Unlike Smart, he doesn't have a broken shot, which makes it easier to improve upon. Unlike Ennis, he puts pressure on the opponent, both defensively and offensively. I've watched Smart enough to know I don't want him. His mediocre quickness is going to be exposed a lot more in the NBA, imo. At best, it will take him years to get to be a good NBA shooter. I'd rather not wait that long.

By the way, the games of two players don't have to be similar at all to say they are both overated. It just means that the two players are being overhyped. Period. Logically, you must understand that.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Of course you don't; you've put all your hope in the draft, all year. Why would you change your mind now?

I'll put my faith in being able to trade the pick for a real NBA player, over continuing to wish for whatever prospect to be a star.
Click to expand...

When have i done that?

And sorry i'd rather have a potential star than whatever mediocre aging veteran we can get with this draft pick trade.
 
Agent23 said:
Anybody think the Suns would be willing to trade us Eric Bledsoe for the 8th pick? He happens to be one of Demarcus Cousins' closest friends and old college teammate.
Click to expand...

It would have to be a sign and trade I'd think. Bledsoe is a RFA. I'd make this trade in a heartbeat if Bledsoe signed like a 5yr/50-60 million or something, I like Bledsoe a lot.

EDIT: We'd have to involve more players too to make salary match. I don't think Phoenix would go for it. They love Bledsoe.
 
Dreadnought said:
It would have to be a sign and trade I'd think. Bledsoe is a RFA. I'd make this trade in a heartbeat if Bledsoe signed like a 5yr/50-60 million or something, I like Bledsoe a lot.

EDIT: We'd have to involve more players too to make salary match. I don't think Phoenix would go for it. They love Bledsoe.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Bledsoe has played well as a starter this season. I think he'd be an excellent addition. Though here's the thing, if Rudy Gay opts in, then re-signing IT would put us into luxury tax according to bleacher (not a great source, I know). So how far into the luxury tax would signing Bledsoe at 50 to 60 million put the team?
 
ESP47 said:
Smart didn't even average 5apg in college and we want to plug him into the worst passing team in the league?

We have to remember that we have almost no shooters, no passers and no defenders. We most likely aren't going to get a 2 way player at #8. Stauskas can shoot but he's a terrible defender. Smart can defend but he's a terrible shooter. Draft either guy and we're only fixing half a problem for 1 single position.

I think the only thing we can hope for is for PDA to trade our pick along with one or two of our players for a pick in the late teens and a veteran who can fill a need on the team, whether it's shooting, passing or defense. We need to get most of the current roster out of here and bring in guys who compliment each other. This team is basically a really bad hand of poker. We we're holding a 2, 5, 8, 10 and an Ace (Cousins). Throw the other 4 cards back and hope you get dealt a good hand. There's no sense in just giving the 2 back when you're holding a hand like that.
Click to expand...

That's an argument that comes up every year in relation to PGs and people never learn. It's not about the numbers. 4.8apg is actually pretty good for a college PG. Here are the assist numbers that some current NBA PGs had in college and what their highest assist average in the NBA has been (in brackets):

Jeff Teague: 3.5 (7.2)
Derrick Rose: 4.7 (7.7)
Jrue Holiday: 3.7 (8)
R. Westbrook: 4.3 (8.2)
D. Lillard: 4.0 (6.5)
R. Rondo: 4.9 (11.7)
K. Lowry: 3.7 (7.4)

The list goes on. Only one of those guys averaged more assists than Smart in college - Rondo, and it was by 0.1 apg. Smart is a good passer and has good vision. I'd be surprised if he doesn't average over 7apg in the NBA.
 
Dime Dropper said:
That's an argument that comes up every year in relation to PGs and people never learn. It's not about the numbers. 4.8apg is actually pretty good for a college PG. Here are the assist numbers that some current NBA PGs had in college and what their highest assist average in the NBA has been (in brackets):

Jeff Teague: 3.5 (7.2)
Derrick Rose: 4.7 (7.7)
Jrue Holiday: 3.7 (8)
R. Westbrook: 4.3 (8.2)
D. Lillard: 4.0 (6.5)
R. Rondo: 4.9 (11.7)
K. Lowry: 3.7 (7.4)

The list goes on. Only one of those guys averaged more assists than Smart in college - Rondo, and it was by 0.1 apg. Smart is a good passer and has good vision. I'd be surprised if he doesn't average over 7apg in the NBA.
Click to expand...

great post.

i'd have no problem with us grabbing Smart. I saw that he completed some agility test or something like that at the combine faster than Westbrook and Chris Paul!
 
Yeah, I was guilty of pointing that agility result out, too, but I'm not sure how useful it is, considering other speedsters like Nene, Cody Zeller, Matt Barnes, and Marcus Thornton also had better agility results. See here.
 
It's all guesswork and prognostication. When I watched Smart play I saw a guy who I think will have trouble sticking in a starting lineup. I don't think he's got the skillset to play PG or the size to play SG. But then I didn't think Westbrook did either and he's made it work (and I would have picked Westbrook top 3 anyway because it was clear he could score and he's a hell of a defender). I made this point a little while ago, I forget where now but it was somewhere on this board, that projecting talent isn't just about overall skill level it's also about skillsets. Players like Paul George and Kawhi Leonard are succeeding because they were drafted by teams who put them in a position to succeed. The teams that passed on them either didn't believe in their talent or didn't have a spot for them. If there's another DeMarcus Cousins in the draft this year, obviously you have to bet on that talent but where would he fit on our team? One of them would have to go right? And at that point you're trying to measure how much better new DeMarcus is to justify losing old DeMarcus. Because that would be inevitable. That's why it's important I think to consider a lot of factors beyond just college stats or measurements. Factors such as what style of game the coach wants to play, what type of players you already have and what roles -- in an ideal offense or an ideal defense -- are not currently being filled.

And in that regard, I think Smart has potential but I'm shaky on whether he can realize it with this team. I like his defensive intensity, I don't like how he runs the offense. And I think he's going to have trouble scoring in the NBA in the same ways that he's scoring in college. There are other defenders in the draft. There are other PGs in the draft and we have a lot of needs that are not currently being filled. If there weren't all these mock drafts about telling us who we are supposed to pick at our range in the draft, it'd be easier to look past the conventional wisdom "BPA" picks and start actually looking at who we really need on this team and how we can get it. If we can't get what we need in the draft, trade the pick. If we can utilize our position in the top 10 to fill multiple needs, even better. If there's somebody who would really help us in the top 7, how much are we willing to give up to make that player a part of our team? There's a whole lot more that goes into this decision than just "who is the BPA at #8".
 
Last edited:
HereWeVivek said:
When have i done that?

And sorry i'd rather have a potential star than whatever mediocre aging veteran we can get with this draft pick trade.
Click to expand...
What logic convinces you that anybody we could pick in the draft could be a "potential star," but any established veteran we could get in exchange for the pick would be "mediocre"?
 
Dreadnought said:
It would have to be a sign and trade I'd think. Bledsoe is a RFA. I'd make this trade in a heartbeat if Bledsoe signed like a 5yr/50-60 million or something, I like Bledsoe a lot.

EDIT: We'd have to involve more players too to make salary match. I don't think Phoenix would go for it. They love Bledsoe.
Click to expand...

A guy can only dream. I was already daydreaming about acquiring Eric Bledsoe last year from the Clippers. Would have given up the 7th pick last year for him. Would give McLemore and the 8th for him this year if it weren't for him being a RFA.
 
Dave was on twitter tonight talking about an Asik swap. Got me thinking that we could be what allows Houston to land Love.

Taking two seconds on the trade machine, Asik and T.Jones to Kings, Love to Houston, Parsons, Thompson and Terry to Minni + a boat load of draft picks, including our #8 this year (through Houston to add to the Love deal)

Asik is a good piece, Jones is a good piece. They are both good defenders, but different kinds of defenders. Asik for the big post guys, Jones for the athletic 4's and weakside shot blocking.
 
Agent23 said:
Anybody think the Suns would be willing to trade us Eric Bledsoe for the 8th pick? He happens to be one of Demarcus Cousins' closest friends and old college teammate.
Click to expand...
Would love to have/get Bledsoe but I just don't see us being able to acquire him.
 
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