The SF Question

[Bricklayer]

What has Cousins done to deserve an extension? Three years of loafing up and down the floor, complaining about everything, yelling at coaches, and who knows what else behind closed doors, and yes showing great talent in spurts(not even close to enough to forgive the other stuff). Giving someone like that an extension, let alone a max extension would be the dumbest move ever. Let Cousins prove himself this season and reward him if he changes, if its the same old thing Vivek will ship his butt out of here. I'll be the first to say good riddance if he doesn't change.

Stop being idiotic about this. He's a max player. The most talented center in the game. Your feelings toward his attitude are irrelevant to the fact that no player his size can do what he can do. You get these players once every one or two decades.

Follow this logic if you please, as I often see you ignore these sorts of arguments when convenient:

1) somebody is going to pay DeMarcus Cousins max money next summer
2) therefore it is pointless to haggle over money, because he has no reason to accept less than max
3) if we pay him the max now, we both dramatically increase the likelihood of him being happy and focused during the season, and take out of play the possibility he will look elsewhere next summer if we have another failed season
4) because the max contract does not kick in until after this upcoming season, it does not cost us a penny to just do it now
5) because other teams would pay Cousins the max next summer, there is NO question we would be able to move his contract if need be, so again we have no reason not to simply wrap the deal up. At worst we have a trade asset.
6) so in short, if DeMarcus Cousins is playing for this team after next season it will be for the max. If DeMarcus Cousins is not playing for this team after next season he will be playing for somebody else at the max, and you absolutely need to get something in return for him. To lose a talent of that level for nothing would be epically stupid. Accordingly, there is absolutely no advantage to not signing him to a max deal now so that you assure yourself of one of those two outcomes.

and MWP is irrelevant compared to Cousins. Completely. You sign him if it is good for your future with Cousins. you don't sign him if he's not.

 

[HndsmCelt]

What has Cousins done to deserve an extension? Three years of loafing up and down the floor, complaining about everything, yelling at coaches, and who knows what else behind closed doors, and yes showing great talent in spurts(not even close to enough to forgive the other stuff). Giving someone like that an extension, let alone a max extension would be the dumbest move ever. Let Cousins prove himself this season and reward him if he changes, if its the same old thing Vivek will ship his butt out of here. I'll be the first to say good riddance if he doesn't change.

No worries at this rate if we offered him a Max extension he will likely pass unless it comes with a trade out of here.

 

[jcwkings]

Stop being idiotic about this. He's a max player. The most talented center in the game. Your feelings toward his attitude are irrelevant to the fact that no player his size can do what he can do. You get these players once every one or two decades.

Follow this logic if you please, as I often see you ignore these sorts of arguments when convenient:

1) somebody is going to pay DeMarcus Cousins max money next summer
2) therefore it is pointless to haggle over money, because he has no reason to accept less than max
3) if we pay him the max now, we both dramatically increase the likelihood of him being happy and focused during the season, and take out of play the possibility he will look elsewhere next summer if we have another failed season
4) because the max contract does not kick in until after this upcoming season, it does not cost us a penny to just do it now
5) because other teams would pay Cousins the max next summer, there is NO question we would be able to move his contract if need be, so again we have no reason not to simply wrap the deal up. At worst we have a trade asset.
6) so in short, if DeMarcus Cousins is playing for this team after next season it will be for the max. If DeMarcus Cousins is not playing for this team after next season he will be playing for somebody else at the max, and you absolutely need to get something in return for him. To lose a talent of that level for nothing would be epically stupid. Accordingly, there is absolutely no advantage to not signing him to a max deal now so that you assure yourself of one of those two outcomes.

and MWP is irrelevant compared to Cousins. Completely. You sign him if it is good for your future with Cousins. you don't sign him if he's not.

At this point he is nothing but a raw talent. His low post game is very raw, he doesn't even have a go to post move yet. His finishing inside is below average for a 7'0 center(look at his FG%'s), and he gets blocked more than any center in the league. His defense is mediocre at best, hes is lazy in transition defense and defense in general. He is a great offensive rebounder that knows how to use his big frame, and his mid range jumpshot is decent(needs to get more consistent). He is a hacker defensively that gets in foul trouble more often than not, yet seems like he doesn't even realize he is hacking!

Name me a player with that many holes in his game that got a max contract. Thats not even taking into account the attitude, pouting, yelling at coaches, lockeroom stuff we don't h even hear about. If we see clear improvement on his weaknesses, we see him trying hard every night on both ends, respects our coach than yes you give him a max deal. However DMC will be on a short leash, whether you like it or not his future here is up in the air this year.

 

[Kingsfan23]

At this point he is nothing but a raw talent. His low post game is very raw, he doesn't even have a go to post move yet. His finishing inside is below average for a 7'0 center(look at his FG%'s), and he gets blocked more than any center in the league. His defense is mediocre at best, hes is lazy in transition defense and defense in general. He is a great offensive rebounder that knows how to use his big frame, and his mid range jumpshot is decent(needs to get more consistent). He is a hacker defensively that gets in foul trouble more often than not, yet seems like he doesn't even realize he is hacking!

Name me a player with that many holes in his game that got a max contract. Thats not even taking into account the attitude, pouting, yelling at coaches, lockeroom stuff we don't h even hear about. If we see clear improvement on his weaknesses, we see him trying hard every night on both ends, respects our coach than yes you give him a max deal. However DMC will be on a short leash, whether you like it or not his future here is up in the air this year.

+1, the entirety. Cousins to me isn't even solidly a very good player. He doesn't play D, wildly inconsistent, lack of developed post-game, doesn't run the floor.. I don't see it yet. This is a big year for him. You earn the max by being an all-star caliber player who plays both ends of the floor and leads the team.

 

[steelevt]

Why aren't the kings in any rumors for sf since iggy? Ak47 is there for the taking. Just being mentioned would be nice. Everyone knows we need one...right?

 

[sdballer]

+1, the entirety. Cousins to me isn't even solidly a very good player. He doesn't play D, wildly inconsistent, lack of developed post-game, doesn't run the floor.. I don't see it yet. This is a big year for him. You earn the max by being an all-star caliber player who plays both ends of the floor and leads the team.

This nonsense keeps getting repeated on here. Cousins max is around 13-15 million/year. Look around the league at the salaries for starting bigs. Teams are regularly paying guys like McGee, Jordan etc only a couple million under that. For someone with Cruz's current game plus potential you pay him slightly more than the other young, deficient bigs around the league.

On a related note, I find it comical how so many of the same posters that poke holes in our young prospects games have routinely overlooked them and shouted down others when it come to recent signings or potential signings. For instance, cuz isn't worth 13m, evans isnt worth 11 but Ellis is worth 12? What?

 

[spudfan]

At this point he is nothing but a raw talent. His low post game is very raw, he doesn't even have a go to post move yet. His finishing inside is below average for a 7'0 center(look at his FG%'s), and he gets blocked more than any center in the league. His defense is mediocre at best, hes is lazy in transition defense and defense in general. He is a great offensive rebounder that knows how to use his big frame, and his mid range jumpshot is decent(needs to get more consistent). He is a hacker defensively that gets in foul trouble more often than not, yet seems like he doesn't even realize he is hacking!

Name me a player with that many holes in his game that got a max contract. Thats not even taking into account the attitude, pouting, yelling at coaches, lockeroom stuff we don't h even hear about. If we see clear improvement on his weaknesses, we see him trying hard every night on both ends, respects our coach than yes you give him a max deal. However DMC will be on a short leash, whether you like it or not his future here is up in the air this year.

Hmm?

Also of interest to you might be some things Cousins is better at than a center who just got a max contract and is most likely playing at his ceiling...

Fouls (per game):
Howard: 3.8
Cousins: 3.6

Free throw %:
Howard: 49.2%
Cousins: 73.6%

Assists (per game):
Howard: 1.4
Cousins: 2.7

Assists to turnover:
Howard: .48
Cousins: .89

Steals (per game):
Howard: 1.11
Cousins: 1.46

Charges drawn:
Howard: 5
Cousins: 18

For all of the raw talent and holes in his game he possesses he seems to be better than a center that received a max contract in many areas. That's not even taking into account the "attitude, pouting, yelling at coaches, lockeroom stuff we don't hear about" that goes along with Dwight Howard. I guess Cousins needs to "respect his coaches, try hard on both ends every night" much like Dwight does so he too can get a max deal like Howard.

PS. We saw how NO ONE wanted the cancerous destroyer , Dwight during this free agency. Poor guy had a hard time finding someone to take him.

 

[HndsmCelt]

"Boom" And Spudfan drops the mike and walks out of the thread!

 

[Bricklayer]

+1, the entirety. Cousins to me isn't even solidly a very good player. He doesn't play D, wildly inconsistent, lack of developed post-game, doesn't run the floor.. I don't see it yet. This is a big year for him. You earn the max by being an all-star caliber player who plays both ends of the floor and leads the team.

No.

You earn the max by being near 7' and being able to walk and chew gum. Just talk to Roy Hibbert or Tyson Chandler. And when you are a youjng big with franchise potential, its not even a serious question.

 

[jcwkings]

so your comparing a multiple time defensive player of the year who pretty much single handed took his team to the NBA finals, to Cousins who plays on one side of the floor(and only if he is getting his touches) on a 25 win team. C'mon is this a joke?, are you guys serious? This is just the most delusional bunch of fans i've ever seen, i mean its incredible. BTW Howard was a model citizen up until he wanted to leave Orlando. Cousins has been a cancer since he was drafted. Still i find you trying to compare Cousins to Howard mind boggling.

Oh and btw you chart shows that he was blocked 102 times, second in the league only to Monroe at 120. So i guess my dumb assumption was off by one player, i'll take it.

 

[Kingsfan23]

This nonsense keeps getting repeated on here. Cousins max is around 13-15 million/year. Look around the league at the salaries for starting bigs. Teams are regularly paying guys like McGee, Jordan etc only a couple million under that. For someone with Cruz's current game plus potential you pay him slightly more than the other young, deficient bigs around the league.

On a related note, I find it comical how so many of the same posters that poke holes in our young prospects games have routinely overlooked them and shouted down others when it come to recent signings or potential signings. For instance, cuz isn't worth 13m, evans isnt worth 11 but Ellis is worth 12? What?

Its all good sdballer. To me its about risk. Considering we can match his offer next summer, and offer more years the year after that, I just feel, with the state of Cuz current game on/off the floor, there is bigger risk in attaching ourselves to him for the next 6 (?) years immovably than there is not being able to retain him and/or get value back for him. Its all opinion, we'll see what the FO believes.

 

[thedofd]

Why aren't the kings in any rumors for sf since iggy? Ak47 is there for the taking. Just being mentioned would be nice. Everyone knows we need one...right?

I don't understand that, either. Then again, haven't seen a lot of chatter about him in general. Maybe there's an issue that we're not aware of. Clearly he's older and not a star by any means, and he's certainly not the great 3-point shooter the front office seems to covet. But he brings some defense and size, and my impression is that he's a "fit in" kind of guy. If the Kings had AK47 backed up by Salmons, they'd at least be in the middle of the pack, small-forward wise, in the league. I'm hoping like heck they have a trade for SF in place to shed one of their small guards and an excess power forward (I favor Deng, if the price is reasonable). If that's not the case, AK47 seems like a pretty good option, given the options.

 

[AaronPDX]

Hmm?

Also of interest to you might be some things Cousins is better at than a center who just got a max contract and is most likely playing at his ceiling...

Fouls (per game):
Howard: 3.8
Cousins: 3.6

Free throw %:
Howard: 49.2%
Cousins: 73.6%

Assists (per game):
Howard: 1.4
Cousins: 2.7

Assists to turnover:
Howard: .48
Cousins: .89

Steals (per game):
Howard: 1.11
Cousins: 1.46

Charges drawn:
Howard: 5
Cousins: 18

For all of the raw talent and holes in his game he possesses he seems to be better than a center that received a max contract in many areas. That's not even taking into account the "attitude, pouting, yelling at coaches, lockeroom stuff we don't hear about" that goes along with Dwight Howard. I guess Cousins needs to "respect his coaches, try hard on both ends every night" much like Dwight does so he too can get a max deal like Howard.

PS. We saw how NO ONE wanted the cancerous destroyer , Dwight during this free agency. Poor guy had a hard time finding someone to take him.

And.......BAM!!! Stats never lie.

+1

 

[sdballer]

so your comparing a multiple time defensive player of the year who pretty much single handed took his team to the NBA finals, to Cousins who plays on one side of the floor(and only if he is getting his touches) on a 25 win team. C'mon is this a joke?, are you guys serious? This is just the most delusional bunch of fans i've ever seen, i mean its incredible. BTW Howard was a model citizen up until he wanted to leave Orlando. Cousins has been a cancer since he was drafted. Still i find you trying to compare Cousins to Howard mind boggling.

Oh and btw you chart shows that he was blocked 102 times, second in the league only to Monroe at 120. So i guess my dumb assumption was off by one player, i'll take it.

Almost every starting center in the league not on a rookie deal is making 10-15m/year. That includes great ones, good ones and young ones that suck. For all of the development cousins needs in his game and his maturity there is no excuse to potentially lose him over a million or two.

And to you again, how can you even scoff at paying the same kind of salary to cousins that you think Ellis deserves.

 

[jcwkings]

No.

You earn the max by being near 7' and being able to walk and chew gum. Just talk to Roy Hibbert or Tyson Chandler. And when you are a youjng big with franchise potential, its not even a serious question.

Tyson Chandler is a defensive player of the year, a pro's pro, and a good leader. Roy Hibbert started off as a big project, but the kid worked his tail off so much that the Pacers rewarded him(and justly, potential perennial DPOY there). Again what has Cousins done to improve his game since he was rookie? I'll take a Roy Hibbert for Cousins swap in a heartbeat.

 

[jcwkings]

And.......BAM!!! Stats never lie.

+1

DPOY awards

Dwight:3
Cousins: 0

NBA Finals appearances
Dwight: 1
Cousins: 0 (has never won more than 28 games in one season)

I don't even want to mention team winning % because it will get more embarassing. Wow i can't even believe i have to post this, its absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Padrino]

Tyson Chandler is a defensive player of the year, a pro's pro, and a good leader. Roy Hibbert started off as a big project, but the kid worked his tail off so much that the Pacers rewarded him(and justly, potential perennial DPOY there). Again what has Cousins done to improve his game since he was rookie? I'll take a Roy Hibbert for Cousins swap in a heartbeat.

well, for starters, he's increased his field goal percentage every season, increased his free throw percentage every season, and decreased his fouls per game every season. that's tangible improvement from his rookie year onward. now you come back with some silly emotional response in a misguided attempt to invalidate cousins' potential...

 

[sdballer]

DPOY awards

Dwight:3
Cousins: 0

NBA Finals appearances
Dwight: 1
Cousins: 0 (has never won more than 28 games in one season)

Dwight made one playoff appearance in the weak eastern conference the first 3 seasons.

 

[The_Jamal]

Hmm?

Also of interest to you might be some things Cousins is better at than a center who just got a max contract and is most likely playing at his ceiling...

Fouls (per game):
Howard: 3.8
Cousins: 3.6

Free throw %:
Howard: 49.2%
Cousins: 73.6%

Assists (per game):
Howard: 1.4
Cousins: 2.7

Assists to turnover:
Howard: .48
Cousins: .89

Steals (per game):
Howard: 1.11
Cousins: 1.46

Charges drawn:
Howard: 5
Cousins: 18

For all of the raw talent and holes in his game he possesses he seems to be better than a center that received a max contract in many areas. That's not even taking into account the "attitude, pouting, yelling at coaches, lockeroom stuff we don't hear about" that goes along with Dwight Howard. I guess Cousins needs to "respect his coaches, try hard on both ends every night" much like Dwight does so he too can get a max deal like Howard.

PS. We saw how NO ONE wanted the cancerous destroyer , Dwight during this free agency. Poor guy had a hard time finding someone to take him.

Very interesting numbers. Especially Cousins %AST on his baskets. That is disastrously low.

But lezbihonest here. All those numbers u just posted of Cousins being better than Howard really don't mean much for a C. They are "fluff" numbers

 

[Padrino]

Very interesting numbers. Especially Cousins %AST on his baskets. That is disastrously low.

But lezbihonest here. All those numbers u just posted of Cousins being better than Howard really don't mean much for a C. They are "fluff" numbers

in a league with an ever-tightening rule book, i would hardly call free throw percentage a "fluff number," particularly for a high usage big man who spends all of his time being hounded in the paint. just ask the lakers and the magic how much they wish dwight howard worked on that "fluff" aspect of his game...

 

[sdballer]

Why are we even discussing Howard vs cousins. In terms of salary it's cousins vs practically every starting center in the league.

 

[jcwkings]

well, for starters, he's increased his field goal percentage every season, increased his free throw percentage every season, and decreased his fouls per game every season. that's tangible improvement from his rookie year onward. now you come back with some silly emotional response in a misguided attempt to invalidate cousins' potential...

So he went from shooting .43% to .46%, this is a center we're talking about right, not a Monta Ellis type volume chucker? Also in my analysis of his game i said he has a good midrange jumper which equates to free throws. I've never said he doesn't have potential, but when you see a complete project like Hibbert transform himself from pretty much a stiff as a rookie, to a DPOY contender and franchise center, you wonder what Cousins could be if he had that kind of motor and dedication to improvement, instead of dedication to yelling at coaches and refs.

 

[The_Jamal]

in a league with an ever-tightening rule book, i would hardly call free throw percentage a "fluff number," particularly for a high usage big man who spends all of his time being hounded in the paint. just ask the lakers and the magic how much they wish dwight howard worked on that "fluff" aspect of his game...

Ok? So Cousins is better at FT's. Doesn't make him near Dwight yet.

 

[Padrino]

Ok? So Cousins is better at FT's. Doesn't make him near Dwight yet.

did i say so? you made a faulty claim. that's all i was pointing out. beyond it, i'd argue that cousins' assist numbers are not "fluff," either, as any good center must be able to effectively pass out of the low block (shaq averaged 3-4 apg in his prime). and while charges taken probably errs much closer to "fluff," it strikes me as a good first step in the direction of consistent defensive effort for a ground-bound big man like DMC...

the fact is that demarcus cousins' per 36 numbers project out to 20/10/3, and while he's not in the same league as howard, defensively, a 20/10/3 center is always going to earn the max in the nba. always. if cousins can stay in good shape, and if he can keep his foul troubles under control, then i fully expect him to grow into those 20/10/3 numbers, if not surpass them...

 

[The_Jamal]

did i say so? you made a faulty claim. that's all i was pointing out. beyond it, i'd argue that cousins' assist numbers are not "fluff," either, as any good center must be able to effectively pass out of the low block (shaq averaged 3-4 apg in his prime). and while charges taken probably errs much closer to "fluff," it strikes me as a good first step in the direction of consistent defensive effort for a ground-bound big man like DMC...

the fact is that demarcus cousins' per 36 numbers project out to 20/10/3, and while he's not in the same league as howard, defensively, a 20/10/3 center is always going to earn the max in the nba. always. if cousins can stay in good shape, and if he can keep his foul troubles under control, then i fully expect him to grow into those 20/10/3 numbers, if not surpass them...

Cool the attack jets bud. I agree lol. Cousins is an easy max guy with how inflated the bigs market is.

Just saying FT's and ASt numbers for a C are completely secondary to what you want from that position. Are they nice to have? Of course. But I'm not going to go sign DeMarcus because "Damn! That kid can shoot free throws!"

 

[Padrino]

Cool the attack jets bud. I agree lol. Cousins is an easy max guy with how inflated the bigs market is.

Just saying FT's and ASt numbers for a C are completely secondary to what you want from that position. Are they nice to have? Of course. But I'm not going to go sign DeMarcus because "Damn! That kid can shoot free throws!"

of course not. but a potential 20 ppg center becomes considerably more valuable when he can shoot free throws. you're not gonna see a hack-a-DMC strategy employed anytime soon, and that's absolutely worth noting when dominant big men of their respective generations like shaq and dwight have been notoriously inept from the free throw line...

 

[ParniValjak]

Hmm?

Also of interest to you might be some things Cousins is better at than a center who just got a max contract and is most likely playing at his ceiling...

Fouls (per game):
Howard: 3.8
Cousins: 3.6

Free throw %:
Howard: 49.2%
Cousins: 73.6%

Assists (per game):
Howard: 1.4
Cousins: 2.7

Assists to turnover:
Howard: .48
Cousins: .89

Steals (per game):
Howard: 1.11
Cousins: 1.46

Charges drawn:
Howard: 5
Cousins: 18

For all of the raw talent and holes in his game he possesses he seems to be better than a center that received a max contract in many areas. That's not even taking into account the "attitude, pouting, yelling at coaches, lockeroom stuff we don't hear about" that goes along with Dwight Howard. I guess Cousins needs to "respect his coaches, try hard on both ends every night" much like Dwight does so he too can get a max deal like Howard.

PS. We saw how NO ONE wanted the cancerous destroyer , Dwight during this free agency. Poor guy had a hard time finding someone to take him.

Oh he got TOLD!!!

 

[jalfa]

What has Cousins done to deserve an extension?

he put up 17/10 as a 23 year old. care to name anybody fitting those criteria that hasn't gotten a max out of it? like, in the history of the league?

 

[KingsFanGER]

You are really comparing DMC with D.Howard or Hibbert? Those guys are true Centers, that play underneath the basket or on the low block all the time. DMC was used in the high post the majority of possessions. Looks pretty natural to me, that his FG% is lower then Howards.
DMC is more of a PF/C and will never reach 55-60 FG% if he keeps his style of play.
But there is no PF/C in the whole league, that is as talented as DMC. This guy can shoot, put the ball on the floor, pass, post and has the body control to perform great spin moves and even freaking euro-step-moves. How is a 23old kid, that is capable of doing things no other big is able to do not worth the max?
On top of that DMC is not a weak defender. He just has no clue of team defense and reacts way too slow, when help-defense is needed. Of course he has to improve in this area, but this is nothing a good coach can't turn around in 1-2 seasons.
DMC worst case scenario is a bigger, more athletic Z. Randolph and this would still be still a heck of a basketball-player.

 

[Section 101]

You are really comparing DMC with D.Howard or Hibbert? Those guys are true Centers, that play underneath the basket or on the low block all the time. DMC was used in the high post the majority of possessions. Looks pretty natural to me, that his FG% is lower then Howards.
DMC is more of a PF/C and will never reach 55-60 FG% if he keeps his style of play.
But there is no PF/C in the whole league, that is as talented as DMC. This guy can shoot, put the ball on the floor, pass, post and has the body control to perform great spin moves and even freaking euro-step-moves. How is a 23old kid, that is capable of doing things no other big is able to do not worth the max?
On top of that DMC is not a weak defender. He just has no clue of team defense and reacts way too slow, when help-defense is needed. Of course he has to improve in this area, but this is nothing a good coach can't turn around in 1-2 seasons.
DMC worst case scenario is a bigger, more athletic Z. Randolph and this would still be still a heck of a basketball-player.

As I have pointed out on several occasions, Cuz is the lowest assisted center in the league. He gets about 25% of his baskets from assists. Howard gets around 65% of his baskets from assists. If Cuz got a few more easy assisted baskets his FG% will shoot up.