I was way more perturbed with Grant than any of the forum members. Uncalled for from our broadcasting crew. Doesn't mean he has to be a homer but the remainder of the broadcast he wouldn't let it go and today it's the same. I'm more frustrated with us giving up 20 3 pointers made than Cuz getting kicked out. Also, interesting in that Sean Cunningham on twitter thought that the first tech on Cuz was BS and of course, we all know what happened afterwards. Not excusing how Cuz handled it but the last thing we need is Grant Napear whipping everyone into a frenzy and turning on Cousins. I think it's sick.
[Game] Kings @ Warriors 28 DEC 2015, 22:30 ET/19:30 PT
- Thread starter Mr. S£im Citrus
- Start date
Shaqfuey
Bench
The problem with your argument is it assumes that the Kings play a man down if Cousins is traded. A trade yields additional players that may actually improve that percentage.
You could make a case that his poor shot selection, on-again, off-again defensive effort, and lack of hustle actually is a big contributer to Kings losses.
Shaqfuey
Bench
I think it's clear that Napear doesn't care for Cuz. He, like many, are tired of losing and tired of his antics.
My big disappointment is Divac and his constant need to cover for Cousins. He seems to have blinders on like the dopey owner.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Unless Vlade knows about the play of big men in the NBA than you and therefor values Boogie more than you do.
Well, I'm reasonably sure that Kevin Durant, Stephen Curry, LeBron James, Blake Griffin, Anthony Davis, Paul George and Andre Drummond are not on the trading block. Which means that anybody we'd conceivably get back in a trade for DeMarcus Cousins is as close to "playing a man down" as makes no odds.
K
KingMilz
Guest
What if the Knicks offered us Zinger + filler (not Melo) would you consider it?
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Because you KNOW Porzingis is going to become a superstar?
Do you KNOW it?
Because there is the thing -- if you trade DeMarcus Cousins for a non-superstar you have just done the very stupidest thing in the long history of stupid that is Sacramento. You have just committed the unforgiveable NBA sin. you have just made the move people are still talking about 30 years hence in game thread themes on "Great ****ups in Kings History".
I happen to like Zinger a whole lot. I do think he has what it takes. I also think there is a long way to go and I think he's 7'3", which is a great height to have feet problems.
He;'s one of a very VERY small group of kids who if we HAD to trade Cousins, we should be looking up. But that's the relationship. If Cousins demands out and we have to desperately save the day, you try to get Zinger and KAT, and get rejected on both fronts. But you try.
But only an idiot initiates that conversation. Bird in the bush. BIRD IN THE BUSH.
we have a Top 20 all time center on our team. He's 25, just entering his prime. If I were an owner and my GM came to me trying to trade that piece I'd castrate him on the spot and kick his ass right out the door. Toss his junk out after him.
Yeah, you love to repeat yourself over and over again about how bad we have been without Cousins but the real question is how much better/worse would we be without Cousins but with the players we would get in return for him. Last I checked, when you trade a "HOF" player you'll get a pretty good haul back.
Also, how good have we been WITH Cousins? I doubt he's cracked a .400 winning percentage in the games he's played.
Good for him. At least somebody in the organization has the balls to say that to him. This babying act with him obviously doesn't work.
Using Brick's number of 7-35 in games without Cousins over the past three years, that would make us 62-91 over the past three years (not his career) with Cousins, which comes out to a .405 winning percentage.
Sluggah
All-Star
ugh, you, with your facts. incorrigible!
K
KingMilz
Guest
If your talking about fantasy hoops than yeah Cousins is a superstar and top 20 center of all time but if your talking actual reality I don't see it. I don't see what currently makes him a superstar, Kevin Love was more a superstar on a Wolves team that went like 500. In the West when the West was STACKED. Even past prime Dirk missing 20 something games in a stacked West with OJ Mayo as the 2nd best player got to 40 wins.
Sadly in team sports the only numbers that matter are wins and losses not some per 36minute crap or anything else for that matter.
Even Andre Miller in his 76ers days put up more of a impact on wins/losses in a weak conference like we are in now with a worse team based on talent.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Past prime Dirk, 2012:
Mavs Record without: 13-16 .448 37 win pace
Mavs Record with: 28-25 .528 43 win pace
Andre Miller of course notoriously never missed games, so his impact on winning is impossible to track in games. Best we can do is his on/off +/-:
via bballreference:
07-08 -7.0 regular season, -25.1 playoffs
08-09 +4.4 regular season, -26.8 playoffs
Are there any other heroes you'd like to throw out who you think were running around adding more than 250 points/19 games to their team's win percentage by themselves? I could save you a lot of time you know.
Dirk came back and bumped those Mavs by .80 percentage points/6 games. That's a good number, very respectable.
Dump him on the 2015-16 Kings with that impact and here's where we are:
Kings w/o: .143 win % = 11.7 win pace
Kings w/ 'Dirk" .143 + .80 = .223 win % = 18.3 win pace
Kings 1-7 w/o + .223x23= 5-18 w/Dirk = 6-25 record
Which would be sweet. We should totally aim for that rather than keep around this nasty Boogie character making us respectable.
The biases of people on this issue are blinding them to realities.
Oh and P.S. Love couldn't defend, so he was only half a star, but his impact was chronically underrated by people too. What wins that franchise had were due to him.
You said,
then said,
.
You said,
or we
Brick, Cousins demanded a trade already, and right now, Vlade is rallying around his guy.
Really? We haven't won a single season over 30 games WITH Cousins. How is he not making us lose?
he's winning us 30 games every year. Amazing accomplishment compared to Hakeem, Shaq, and Duncan.
I can bring up fancy stats too. But winning 29 out of 82 games almost every year is laughable........
The last time a team traded their disgruntled star, who's not even as talented as Cousins, they got back a franchise player in Andrew Wiggins.. A year after Andrew Wiggins, they're looking like a team who could capitalize on 8th seed since the Kings refuse to.
Let's not act like we won't get anything for Cousins if we decided to trade him.
Let's not act like we won't get anything for Cousins if we decided to trade him.
K
KingMilz
Guest
The 76ers with prior to Miller and Iverson quitting on the team were 5-19 and the biggest mess in the NBA at the time Miller made them a roughly a 8th seed (500. team) for the next two years after that....So regardless of the worst stat in the history of basketball which is +/- theres no question by simplying adding him they were
better. They played the #1 seed in the playoffs off course they were going to lose those stats would not look good.
Using +/- really? If they were better with him off the floor according to +/- why were they 5 -19? I can't belevie anyone would use that stat to justify anything.
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Boogie_Fever
G-League
They only reason that was even made possible is because Lebron wouldn't even go to back home unless they could get Kevin Love. Minnesota knew that and demanded the world for him. We'll get pennies for Demarcus. We'll contiue to lose for another decade till we are able to start drafting properly again. 7-35 without Cuz on the floor. No Thank you. You guys always do this. Run good players out of town. Did it to C-Webb. Did it to Peja. Did it to Reke. Did it to IT. Doing it to DMC. Kings fans do not deserve a good team since all we do is run our talent out of town.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Dude, that is embarrassing.
Post after post after post I have demonstrated EXACTLY how Cousins is not only not making us lose, but is in fact making a very bad team win a ton of games it would not without him.
And you keep coming back to the same point.
This is approaching not wanting to eat your peas and carrots level now. The numbers are all right there. The Kings win far FAR more games with Cousins than without. More than half their wins each season are directly attributable to his presence. Getting stuck on some primitive 'but we only won 29!!!" treadmill is just unworthy of any thinking fan once they can see behind the numbers, which we can. We only won 29!!! But without Cousins we would have only won 14!!! Hence Cousins = making a massive positive difference to our winning, year after year after year.
KingsFanGER
Starter
Cousins gets a lot of heat right now. I personally think it's a bit too much.
There are some valid points made by those, who are frustrated with DMC.
His arguing with officials sometimes causes him to not get back on D in time. His decision making leaves a lot to be desired and gets worse in crunchtime, where he tends to force things too much.
But I think painting DMC as a player with no post game (a year ago we were all raving about his great footwork), as a bad defender (I know this point is mainly about the occasions, where he is not running back) and as the reason this team loses, looks like an emotional overreaction, because the hopes were so high prior to this season.
DMC hasn't played a good season so far. He is making too many mistakes, has played through a major shooting slump and injuries and was asked to adjust his playstyle to fit the vision of the coach (or his own vision) and the strengths and weaknesses of the team. But this team is still in reach of the 8th seed. So basically this season isn't over yet.
The main problems of this team are on the defensive end. And while he could be doing a better job when defending the pick&roll DMC is not responsible for our perimeter defense.
The lack of good wing defense was clear as day before the season. But somehow Vlade was unable to adress this weakness.
And in a combination with the strange defensive schemes, this is haunting us now.
There are some valid points made by those, who are frustrated with DMC.
His arguing with officials sometimes causes him to not get back on D in time. His decision making leaves a lot to be desired and gets worse in crunchtime, where he tends to force things too much.
But I think painting DMC as a player with no post game (a year ago we were all raving about his great footwork), as a bad defender (I know this point is mainly about the occasions, where he is not running back) and as the reason this team loses, looks like an emotional overreaction, because the hopes were so high prior to this season.
DMC hasn't played a good season so far. He is making too many mistakes, has played through a major shooting slump and injuries and was asked to adjust his playstyle to fit the vision of the coach (or his own vision) and the strengths and weaknesses of the team. But this team is still in reach of the 8th seed. So basically this season isn't over yet.
The main problems of this team are on the defensive end. And while he could be doing a better job when defending the pick&roll DMC is not responsible for our perimeter defense.
The lack of good wing defense was clear as day before the season. But somehow Vlade was unable to adress this weakness.
And in a combination with the strange defensive schemes, this is haunting us now.
Livinthedream
All-Star
I'm not going to complain about anyone's defense on this team until the actual scheme changes. One that doesn't, by design, take players out of position, or put them on the wrong end of a mismatch. Karl would take Tony Allen and have him switch off his man to guard the post anyways. So what good is an elite wing defender in this system?
KingsFanGER
Starter
For a 6'6 to 6'8 strong, athletic wing there aren't a lot of missmatches in todays league. Those kind of players are the foundation of a defense, that wants to switch a lot. Sadly we only have Casspi and Gay and to a lesser extent Anderson on this roster and none of them is a particuarly good defender. This has caused Karl to abandon most of the switching we saw earlier in the season.
But the main problem remains. We have no physical and aggressive defenders.
Rondo is trying to play defense more with his smarts than with his physical tools and is gambling a lot because of it. Ben is trying, but only gets limited minutes and gets overpowered occasionally. DC is our best on ball defender, but is matched up with bigger guards half the time.
Those 3 are our best perimeter defenders (minus WCS, who is injured and a rookie). And this is pretty telling in a league, where most teams are built to punish you from the outside.
I certainly agree with you, that Karl plays his part regarding our defense. But building a playoff team without any full sized upper echolon perimeter defenders is still a risky thing to do.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I haven't said anything on this subject so far. I thought I'd wait 24 yours and see if the bile in my mouth was gone, but it's still there. As I watched the Warriors game, one thing sort of leaped out at me. The Warriors looked like they were having fun, and the Kings didn't. Even when the Warriors were missing all their shots, and we looked like world beaters for a spell, the Warriors still looked like they were having fun. While we were scowling, they were laughing. In short, they're a happy team. They don't care who makes the basket. They look like a team, and we don't. Oh there are times when we will for maybe a quarter, but then, why stay with something that's working. As Karl said, there's a little too much me on this team and not enough we.
I was upset when Cuz got three quick fouls in the first quarter. But you'd think, that a player of his caliber, a player that's as important to the team as he is, all the while knowing that he's the only player available to play center because WCS and Koufos wern't available, would try and play smart. That he wouldn't take stupid risks that could get him another foul. But no, silly me for thinking that. He quickly went out and picked up two quick fouls which would have sent him back to the bench. And then he did the one thing I have a serious time excusing. He QUIT! Cousins, the player that wants to be the leader of the team, quit on the team. Now you all can go ahead and make up excuses for that, and pretend it doesn't matter, but it matters to me. I can't stand quitters, and make no mistake, he didn't want to sit on the bench for another quarter.
I have a news flash for Mr. DeMarcus Cousins, your no leader, and your not a role model, and I'm done with you. I have gone from being his biggest advocate to caring less if he ever plays another game for the Kings. The end doesn't always justify the means. Character matters to me, and Cousins needs a huge doze of it. This how I feel right now. I'm angry and fed up. I'm tired of hearing about Cousins. I'll tell you one thing for sure. Patting him on the butt, and telling him it's alright, everything is going to be OK isn't going to change a damm thing. Who knows, maybe in a day or two, I'll feel different about everything. I think I'm getting too old for this crap.
I was upset when Cuz got three quick fouls in the first quarter. But you'd think, that a player of his caliber, a player that's as important to the team as he is, all the while knowing that he's the only player available to play center because WCS and Koufos wern't available, would try and play smart. That he wouldn't take stupid risks that could get him another foul. But no, silly me for thinking that. He quickly went out and picked up two quick fouls which would have sent him back to the bench. And then he did the one thing I have a serious time excusing. He QUIT! Cousins, the player that wants to be the leader of the team, quit on the team. Now you all can go ahead and make up excuses for that, and pretend it doesn't matter, but it matters to me. I can't stand quitters, and make no mistake, he didn't want to sit on the bench for another quarter.
I have a news flash for Mr. DeMarcus Cousins, your no leader, and your not a role model, and I'm done with you. I have gone from being his biggest advocate to caring less if he ever plays another game for the Kings. The end doesn't always justify the means. Character matters to me, and Cousins needs a huge doze of it. This how I feel right now. I'm angry and fed up. I'm tired of hearing about Cousins. I'll tell you one thing for sure. Patting him on the butt, and telling him it's alright, everything is going to be OK isn't going to change a damm thing. Who knows, maybe in a day or two, I'll feel different about everything. I think I'm getting too old for this crap.
K
KingMilz
Guest
Wow did not see that coming at all
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I think fans doing the anti-Cuz stomp right now are kind of embarrassing themselves in the same way they claim Cousins embarrasses himself. Hello pots, might want to check your image in the mirror next to the kettle's. Or was I missing the point where emotionally flipping out and quitting was a thing much to be despised?
BTW, I am going to open a new front in this little dustup.
Demarcus Cousins got royally screwed in that game. Now that doesn't mean I don't think fouls could have been called on at least three of them. But it does mean that fouls VERY rarely are called at that rate on a star of that caliber, and it was the refs decisions to do so that effectively killed our chances at the upset.
Oh excuses! Excuses!
Now let me demonstrate to you just how rare what happened in that game was.
I ran a search on basketballreference with the following criteria: Give me every game played by a HOFer since 1985-86 (earliest year they have minutes numbers sorted) in which they played 12 or fewer minutes and picked up at least 5 fouls.
The search turned up a grand total of 9 instances in the last 30 years. 9 total times. And more amazingly, not one single time in 30 years, until yesterday, had it EVER happened to a HOFer in his prime. Last night may have been the very first time (I say may because I had no way to sort for the future HOFs still in the league).
The 9 results consisted of 7 old centers well beyond their prime, reduced to immobile pillars:
Walton at 32
Sampson at 29 (while with us ironically)
Sabonis at 38
Ewing at 38
Mourning at 35
Mourning at 37
Mutombo at 39
and then two kids in their rookie/sophomore seasons:
Stockton at 22
Pippen at 23
Now Cousins is prone to rage at the machine anyway. But that is some pretty potent provocation. For better or worse, and I have never been one of those entirely convinced its for the worse, NBA refs traditionally avoid benching star level players on ticky tack calls. They want them out there making plays to excite the fans, and deciding the game on the court. Not last night. Last night our two best players played 12 minutes and 17 minutes. Despite all the shrieking, its been the better part of a year since Cousins was last ejected (last season Feb. 26 I think). It took a rather extraordinary set of circumstances to get him to go there again.
BTW, I am going to open a new front in this little dustup.
Demarcus Cousins got royally screwed in that game. Now that doesn't mean I don't think fouls could have been called on at least three of them. But it does mean that fouls VERY rarely are called at that rate on a star of that caliber, and it was the refs decisions to do so that effectively killed our chances at the upset.
Oh excuses! Excuses!
Now let me demonstrate to you just how rare what happened in that game was.
I ran a search on basketballreference with the following criteria: Give me every game played by a HOFer since 1985-86 (earliest year they have minutes numbers sorted) in which they played 12 or fewer minutes and picked up at least 5 fouls.
The search turned up a grand total of 9 instances in the last 30 years. 9 total times. And more amazingly, not one single time in 30 years, until yesterday, had it EVER happened to a HOFer in his prime. Last night may have been the very first time (I say may because I had no way to sort for the future HOFs still in the league).
The 9 results consisted of 7 old centers well beyond their prime, reduced to immobile pillars:
Walton at 32
Sampson at 29 (while with us ironically)
Sabonis at 38
Ewing at 38
Mourning at 35
Mourning at 37
Mutombo at 39
and then two kids in their rookie/sophomore seasons:
Stockton at 22
Pippen at 23
Now Cousins is prone to rage at the machine anyway. But that is some pretty potent provocation. For better or worse, and I have never been one of those entirely convinced its for the worse, NBA refs traditionally avoid benching star level players on ticky tack calls. They want them out there making plays to excite the fans, and deciding the game on the court. Not last night. Last night our two best players played 12 minutes and 17 minutes. Despite all the shrieking, its been the better part of a year since Cousins was last ejected (last season Feb. 26 I think). It took a rather extraordinary set of circumstances to get him to go there again.
I've quoted this one, but this is about all of your posts.
Your point is that because we are going from a 29 win pace to 14 wins pace without him he makes a massive positive difference, this point is somewhat flawed:
1. It seems like you look at things as if the difference between a 15 win team to 25 win team is the same as the difference between a 45 win team and a 55 win team- and I disagree.
If you look at the 76ers last season- a team actively trying to lose (from a FO standpoint) they got 18 wins, Orlando that didn't even aimed for the playoffs got 25 wins, out west you can see Denver with 30 wins. If you play in the NBA you are going to win some games, 29 wins is not an achievement- almost every team that tries (again mostly from a FO standpoint) can hit that mark or neer it.
Cuz was the difference between really bad to just bad- that's not huge.
2. We run a very Cousins-centric system (and you are a fan of it), in which he was always top 4 in usage league wide the last 3 years, as opposed to more balanced teams, and because of that the team take a much bigger hit when he is not there.
If the Spurs can still manage a good number of wins without Duncan- that doesn't mean he is not important, it says more about the Spurs than about him.
3. To illustrate the first two points I looked for players with similar affects on their teams, it wasn't hard to find, all I needed was to think of teams that played bad and pick a player who was big part of that team:
Kevin Love (2010-11, 2011-12) in Minnesota:
w/o him 2-18- .100 8 wins pace
with him 41-87- .320 26 wins pace
18 wins difference!
MCW (2013-14) for the 76ers:
w/o him 1-11- .083 6 wins pace
with him 18-52- .257 21 wins pace
15 wins difference!
Anderson Varejao (2011-12) for the Cavs:
w/o him 11-30- .268 22 wins pace
with him 10-15- .400 33 wins pace
11 wins difference!
Ty Lawson (2013-14, 2014-15)
w/o him 8-19- .296 24 wins pace
with him 58-79- .423 35 wins pace
11 wins difference!
Nick Young (2014-15) for the Lakers:
w/o him 9-31- .225 18 wins pace
with him 12-30- .286 24 wins pace
6 wins difference (meaning Swaggy P= Dirk)!
I'm not saying that Cousins doesn't have a impact, I'm saying that you don't have to be a great player to be the difference between a really bad team to a bad team, and since Cousins never won over 29 wins in a season he has yet to prove he can make the same impact on a winning team.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
No one is going to change minds, folks. Cousins is here and the decision about his future does not rest on this forum's shoulders. I understand people enjoy the debate. I sure hope there is enjoyment involved. If anyone thinks they are going to change anyone else's minds, they are deluded. I doubt if any one's mind has been changed in the history of this forum. I am not exactly an outsider when it comes to my opinions as to Cousins but I hope people have noticed a change in Cousins. I notice so many responses that seem to be referring to a guy who played years ago. Change does not occur quickly but it is occurring. The simple stat of the amount of fouls he accumulates early in games has dropped except for this last game. He is NOT being ejected at an awful rate. Check the records.
It bothers me a great deal when people claim to know what is going on in Cousins mind and what effect he has on the team. If people actually know, they have a skill I never attained. It is difficult enough to learn these factors in a face to face situation. Nobody here has that much access.
It bothers me a great deal when people claim to know what is going on in Cousins mind and what effect he has on the team. If people actually know, they have a skill I never attained. It is difficult enough to learn these factors in a face to face situation. Nobody here has that much access.
Frankly, I don't like Porzingis that much. I'm not interested in anything having to do with Carmelo Anthony.
How is us being much better since Cousins cursed the coach out evidence of an issue?
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