[Game] Kings @ Warriors 28 DEC 2015, 22:30 ET/19:30 PT

[hrdboild]

Because when we had the GOAT 9-6 coach along with HOF center Cousins and elite 2nd option Rudy we were sub 500. Yet IT without all these kings legends has actually gone onto actually leading a team to winning records since he's been there.

I think there's some nuance to the arguments you're referencing that you've overlooked. I could try to explain why but I get the impression from the specific hyperboles that you're employing that you've already made up your mind and may in fact view anyone who holds a different opinion than yours with disdain so what would be the point?

For what it's worth, I'm still glad IT is gone. I'm still mad both Tyreke and Coach Malone are gone. I'd be surprised if Boston manages to hold onto their playoff spot by the end of the season, but that is a well-coached team. And since we're talking about the impact of coaching, look at Omri Casspi. Two years ago he's on the fringes of the NBA. Now playing for his fourth head coach he's emerged as a deadeye shooter and a player other teams have to plan for. On most teams he never even gets the opportunity.

 

[KingMilz]

I think there's some nuance to the arguments you're referencing that you've overlooked. I could try to explain why but I get the impression from the specific hyperboles that you're employing that you've already made up your mind and may in fact view anyone who holds a different opinion than yours with disdain so what would be the point?

For what it's worth, I'm still glad IT is gone. I'm still mad both Tyreke and Coach Malone are gone. I'd be surprised if Boston manages to hold onto their playoff spot by the end of the season, but that is a well-coached team. And since we're talking about the impact of coaching, look at Omri Casspi. Two years ago he's on the fringes of the NBA. Now playing for his fourth head coach he's emerged as a deadeye shooter and a player other teams have to plan for. On most teams he never even gets the opportunity.

Casspi improvement is a direct result of hard work and realizing he had to change his game, Karl just gave him a bit more confidence cause he fit in his system well. I'm just bored of excuses at this point and hearing how great certain players are when in there enitre careers have never backed it up.

 

[hrdboild]

What we're seeing with Casspi (in my opinion) is the serendipitous pairing of a player who knows exactly who he is and a coach who's picked out a role for him that is suited to his strengths. All players should be so lucky. Casspi seems like a great guy and a hard worker. I don't want to take any credit from him for making the adjustments he needed to make to stay in the league. In fact it's important that he recognized the need for the adjustments and made them on his own. The same thing happened for Hassan Whiteside last season in Miami. Some players figure it out on their own. Part of being a winning organization is finding those players who haven't figured it out and guiding them along. You can't just leave it up to the players and hope you get lucky.

I'm equally fed up with the excuses, I just don't think we're a winning team unless our coach and franchise player are on the same page. And it's a lot easier to change one of those pieces than the other. Teams rarely trade franchise players and our draft situation is now thoroughly f'ed. Also, from watching the games this season, I think the coaching is a much bigger problem than any individual player. On one side you've got Casspi and Rondo who fit the roles chosen for them. On the other there's DeMarcus, Rudy, Belinelli, Collison, and McLemore who are flailing. It's more bad than good and I haven't seen a lot of adjustments.

 

[KingMilz]

What we're seeing with Casspi (in my opinion) is the serendipitous pairing of a player who knows exactly who he is and a coach who's picked out a role for him that is suited to his strengths. All players should be so lucky. Casspi seems like a great guy and a hard worker. I don't want to take any credit from him for making the adjustments he needed to make to stay in the league. In fact it's important that he recognized the need for the adjustments and made them on his own. The same thing happened for Hassan Whiteside last season in Miami. Some players figure it out on their own. Part of being a winning organization is finding those players who haven't figured it out and guiding them along. I'm equally fed up with the excuses, I just don't think we're a winning team unless our coach and franchise player are on the same page. And it's a lot easier to change one of those pieces than the other. Teams rarely trade franchise players and our draft situation is now thoroughly f'ed.

I agree with that, if we fired Karl tomorrow I would not care but at some point we have to look at what could be the core of the problem which COULD be our 'franchise player' (I've yet to see proof he actually is). Something is clearly not working and we literally have everything in our favor outside of what we control going for us to be a 500. Team and make the playoffs.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Because when we had the GOAT 9-6 coach along with HOF center Cousins and elite 2nd option Rudy we were sub 500. Yet IT without all these kings legends has actually gone onto actually leading a team to winning records since he's been there.

So, you don't think that there's a difference between the 2015 version of George Karl and Brad Stevens?

 

[New Era]

I remember Omri's rookie year and how frustrating it was watching him at times because he really played with a lot of selfishness. If he missed a couple of shots in a row he would then start forcing even more shots and it would really screw around with the team's chemistry. Look at how far he's come now. Sure, he looks for his shot but it comes much more in the flow of things and he's all about that team now. He's made the necessary adjustments to take his game to the next level.

Something like this needs to happen for Cuz as well. When he watches film sessions and sees how ridiculous he acts when obvious fouls are called on him does he take responsibility for it or is it more excuses? What's that old saying? "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." I'm not suggesting Cuz is insane but maybe he is when it comes to the mental aspect of playing basketball. It's never going to change until he takes personal responsibility and realizes that HE is the problem and not the refs, not the coaches, and not his teammates.

 

[pshn80]

Indeed, but that had little to do with being kicked out.

This isn't about that anyway. People are frequently dumb and emotional about things, as bad as Cousins himself. Cousins actions after picking up his 5th foul of the game might have nudged the results in this one single game 5% one way or there other, but that's about it. If he gets tossed with only 1 foul, then that's inexcusable, maybe he carries us home. But he was already just about out of this game. I was frankly more concerned where his head was before the event than after.

Its just an excuse for people to grind old axes, Grant included

This old axe needs a lot of grinding. The one-foul, five-foul view of this or any DQ is thin and irrelevant. He didn't cause the loss but he could have been there for us. Joins n the fight to win regardless of results. So what should the team do about this repeated AWOL? I jus don't know.

 

[kupman]

He tossed himself from a game he was almost out of anyway.

He tossed himself from his first game of the year.

It just was not a terribly significant event. It's not even the first, nor certainly the ugliest, ejection of the year for us.

In essence he decided to quit for the night because things were not going his way? This, despite the fact that we were still very much in the game and could have used him down the stretch.

Lovely.

I really hope that you are wrong on this one. If you are not wrong my concerns are even greater than my concern that DMC is still unable to manage stress and frustrtion well on the the court to the team's detriment.

 

[Kingston Jamaica]

It's all over, guys.

Come on, man! Nothing is over and it's going to be very good in the end. You can't go into this kind of mourning based on one game against GSW. That is outright ridiculous. The team has to get together and decide that it was a poor show professionally and change the disc. That's all. The one thing that makes me a bit disappointed was Omri's great night. If a couple of other players would have had a good night as well, who knows how it would have ended. I was also pleased to see that there are guys on the bench that can come in, like Quincy.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Come on, man! Nothing is over and it's going to be very good in the end. You can't go into this kind of mourning based on one game against GSW. That is outright ridiculous...

On the plus side, we only have one more game against Golden State, and they have been the only team that we've played so far that we haven't really belonged on the court with.

 

[Bricklayer]

This old axe needs a lot of grinding. The one-foul, five-foul view of this or any DQ is thin and irrelevant. He didn't cause the loss but he could have been there for us. Joins n the fight to win regardless of results. So what should the team do about this repeated AWOL? I jus don't know.

Um..I certainly do.

Nothing.

Nudge me when he has one of these events that actually costs us a game. Until that time, its a SMH and next game.

 

[steelevt]

Um..I certainly do.

Nothing.

Nudge me when he has one of these events that actually costs us a game. Until that time, its a SMH and next game.

Technically some of these "events" did cost us some games. Considering we are like 2-100 without him . Though not directly costing us a game, based on the past, we need the big fella on the court to stand a chance.

 

[VladFather]

Um..I certainly do.

Nothing.

Nudge me when he has one of these events that actually costs us a game. Until that time, its a SMH and next game.

There was no reason for him to be so angry this time, he fouled Curry, it was a good call. He quit on his team by getting ejected in a close game, and could be suspended for the next game. This team isn't good enough to have that crap going on, I don't blame him for being frustrated with how this season has gone and how he's being utilized, but something needs to change. I don't see this team as currently being utilized on the cusp of turning it around, regardless of what the players say.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Cousins might be suspended for what should be a gimme game on Wednesday:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14457530/demarcus-cousins-sacramento-kings-facing-nba-discipline

I hope I won't have to give Brick a nudge.

 

[Bricklayer]

Technically some of these "events" did cost us some games. Considering we are like 2-100 without him . Though not directly costing us a game, based on the past, we need the big fella on the court to stand a chance.

I am sure they did.

Then is not now.

 

[LPKingsFan]

I'm curious why people think he could be suspended? Getting tossed =/= suspended, unless you decided to gay slur a ref of course. Not leave in timely fashion?

You'll have to ask Vlade. From the article I just posted:

Sacramento Kings general manager Vlade Divac said Monday night that he expects DeMarcus Cousins to be suspended by the league after his latest outburst at referees.

 

[Bricklayer]

You'll have to ask Vlade. From the article I just posted:

Vlade would be in a far better position to assess than any of us, so I'll take his word for it.

 

[JoseCousins]

Cuz needs to change his on court demeanor or he needs to go to a place where he wins instantly...won't happen in sacramento

 

[SLAB]

It's been a day and I'm over it and back firmly with Cuz. When it happened I was on the "ZOMG UNACCEPTABLE" train, and while it certainly was a stupid temper tantrum... The Kings weren't winning the game anyways. It's done, hopefully he learned something (probably not) let's move on and beat the 76ers tomorrow.

As for Omri. His growth as a player is astounding. I never thought he would be above a Cisco Garcia type player that came off the bench and give a shot of energy while making boneheaded mistakes while playing 150 mph... Well, he still makes the mistakes but 95% of the time he more than makes up for them. I'm so glad to see him flourishing on this team!

 

[KingMilz]

So, you don't think that there's a difference between the 2015 version of George Karl and Brad Stevens?

In all honesty the only two coaches I feel like I can tell are good are Rick Carlise and Pop, it's hard for me to say how good Stevens is but he's done a good job so far. The key difference is the Celtics have players who love to compete and we have three and two are deep bench players and Casspi.

 

[pshn80]

Um..I certainly do.

Nothing.

Nudge me when he has one of these events that actually costs us a game. Until that time, its a SMH and next game.

Nudge. Using your words "we don't win without him", we have been without him often enough thru njury, illness, foul trouble, suspension, that I think it fair to say he has cost us games. Throw in the fact that som games or significant parts of games he has played in, he has been "absent". It is not insignificant. What should the team do? Maybe "Nothing" is the right answer. Maybe starting Kofs for five games is a useful alternatives. I don't have the answer.

 

[enigma99a]

This is the NBA, not kiddie league.

Have a HOF talent, or hopefully more than one, or you might as well not even play come spring. Isaiah Thomas is "leading" (well, chucking) an 8th seeded Boston team that will get squished like a bug when things get serious. That's the fate of all " heart and professionalism" nonsense in this sport. You can do heart and professionalism in hockey, not basketball. Basketball is the most predictable and individualistic of all the sports -- one player can dominate games. A team built correctly around said player can dominate the league.

Oh, and the whole line is nonsense anyway when applied to Cousins. Complete nonsense unless you can explain how the team wins far far less games without the cancer than with. In fact almost can't win a game without the cancer. There is no answer there for you btw, just a feeble excuse. Its better to just try to ignore it and hope I quit bringing it up like the other people who are just as wrong on this issue as you are. There is a fatal hole in your logic on this one.

You are wrong about Cousins impact on this team.

Just wrong. His positives quite obviously, and statistically irrefutably, far outweigh his negatives. People can cry about his relationship with refs all they want. It still is just a footnote to his impact on the scoreboard. If it seems like any more to somebody, then that says a lot more about that person than it does about Cousins. Its been a minor impediment at best for some time now. Before tonight, no ejections, playing more minutes than he ever has, not been a significant issue.

Calling BS on that man. If its just one player that matters how come the team is under .500? And if Cousins is so good how come the team has sucked the last several seasons when he was the man? Yes without a doubt one good player in the NBA can change a team, but Cousins isn't the guy. You look at all the greats and none of them had the same attitude that he has

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

In all honesty the only two coaches I feel like I can tell are good are Rick Carlise and Pop, it's hard for me to say how good Stevens is but he's done a good job so far. The key difference is the Celtics have players who love to compete and we have three and two are deep bench players and Casspi.

:: shrugs ::

I tend to feel like that drive to compete can largely be a reflection of coaching, YMMV.

 

[Bricklayer]

Calling BS on that man. If its just one player that matters how come the team is under .500? And if Cousins is so good how come the team has sucked the last several seasons when he was the man? Yes without a doubt one good player in the NBA can change a team, but Cousins isn't the guy. You look at all the greats and none of them had the same attitude that he has

Ignoring the last statement for a moment -- I'm assuming you are too young to have seen Charles Barkley play, and its hardly relevant anyway as a large percentage of great players are jerks of one sort or the other -- I get tired of having to throw this out again and again.

Nobody can deny this, so people who don't want to understand its import just read right over it in the most ridiculously selective fashion:

Last 3 years (since Vivek took over) Kings record without DeMarcus Cousins:

7-35

That tells you everything, or should. Outside of the Sixers pranking the league, the Kings without Cousins have been the very worst team in the NBA. As I said, it gets tiresome after a while having to point out the same thing again and again and again. And yet here we go again. The worst. A 14 win pace. And we win more than twice as much when we DO have Cousins. Which is an enormous +/- effect.

I'm only going to chase down so many of these numbers, but please understand the implications here.

Kings w/0 Cousins 13-15: 7-35 = .167
Spurs w/o Duncan 00-05: 20-17 .540
Rockets w/o Hakeem 90-96: 23-27 .460
Lakers w/o Shaq 96-04: 58-52 .527

Is there perhaps something that jumps out just a tiny bit, just a little, about the respective records of the teams of those great bigs in their primes? Something that makes you look at the ridiculous number next to Cousins name in a different light? Something that makes you realize that without Duncan the Spurs are a 44 win team, without Hakeem the Rockets are a 38 win team, without Shaq the Lakers are a 43 win team? And THEN you add on the great big on top of the already .500 team, and everybody gushes about what a great winner he is for adding 15 more wins to his team's total?

And then along comes DeMarcus, stuck with a sad sack 14 win a year team, and he adds 19 wins...but HE'S the loser?

You want to take a guess what I think would happen if you traded Cousins off someplace that had a .500 supporting cast in place without him? Uh huh. Kings fans better pray that one day is with us.

 

[Ugolino]

Ignoring the last statement for a moment -- I'm assuming you are too young to have seen Charles Barkley play, and its hardly relevant anyway as a large percentage of great players are assholes of one sort or the other -- I get tired of having to throw this out again and again.

Nobody can deny this, so people who don't want to understand its import just read right over it in the most ridiculously selective fashion:

Last 3 years (since Vivek took over) Kings record without DeMarcus Cousins:

7-35

That tells you everything, or should. Outside of the Sixers pranking the league, the Kings without Cousins have been the very worst team in the NBA. As I said, it gets tiresome after a while having to point out the same thing again and again and again. And yet here we go again. The worst. A 14 win pace. And we win more than twice as much when we DO have Cousins. Which is an enormous +/- effect.

I'm only going to chase down so many of these numbers, but please understand the implications here.

Kings w/0 Cousins 13-15: 7-35 = .167
Spurs w/o Duncan 00-05: 20-17 .540
Rockets w/o Hakeem 90-96: 23-27 .460
Lakers w/o Shaq 96-04: 58-52 .527

Is there perhaps something that jumps out just a tiny bit, just a little, about the respective records of the teams of those great bigs in their primes? Something that makes you look at the ridiculous number next to Cousins name in a different light? Something that makes you realize that without Duncan the Spurs are a 44 win team, without Hakeem the Rockets are a 38 win team, without Shaq the Lakers are a 43 win team? And THEN you add on the great big on top of the already .500 team, and everybody gushes about what a great winner he is for adding 15 more wins to his team's total?

And then along comes DeMarcus, stuck with a sad sack 14 win a year team, and he adds 19 wins...but HE'S the loser?

You want to take a guess what I think would happen if you traded Cousins off someplace that had a .500 supporting cast in place without him? Uh huh. Kings fans better pray that one day is with us.

Agreed, hell, even if we had just a LITTLE defense....

 

[bajaden]

:: shrugs ::

I tend to feel like that drive to compete can largely be a reflection of coaching, YMMV.

I don't think a coach is or should be the inspiration of a players drive or desire to compete. However, I do think a coach can be responsible for Killing that drive. But for that matter, other players on your team can do that as well. Both things can be contagious. Personally, when I played, I didn't need anyone to light a fire under me. That doesn't mean I didn't get discouraged at times. I do think certainly tries to inspire his team, but at the NBA level, that shouldn't be an issue. Obviously it is in some cases. If I was the GM, and I had a player that couldn't get up to play a game on a regular basis, he would be playing for someone else fairly soon.

 

[206Fan]

Ignoring the last statement for a moment -- I'm assuming you are too young to have seen Charles Barkley play, and its hardly relevant anyway as a large percentage of great players are jerks of one sort or the other -- I get tired of having to throw this out again and again.

Nobody can deny this, so people who don't want to understand its import just read right over it in the most ridiculously selective fashion:

Last 3 years (since Vivek took over) Kings record without DeMarcus Cousins:

7-35

That tells you everything, or should. Outside of the Sixers pranking the league, the Kings without Cousins have been the very worst team in the NBA. As I said, it gets tiresome after a while having to point out the same thing again and again and again. And yet here we go again. The worst. A 14 win pace. And we win more than twice as much when we DO have Cousins. Which is an enormous +/- effect.

I'm only going to chase down so many of these numbers, but please understand the implications here.

Kings w/0 Cousins 13-15: 7-35 = .167
Spurs w/o Duncan 00-05: 20-17 .540
Rockets w/o Hakeem 90-96: 23-27 .460
Lakers w/o Shaq 96-04: 58-52 .527

Is there perhaps something that jumps out just a tiny bit, just a little, about the respective records of the teams of those great bigs in their primes? Something that makes you look at the ridiculous number next to Cousins name in a different light? Something that makes you realize that without Duncan the Spurs are a 44 win team, without Hakeem the Rockets are a 38 win team, without Shaq the Lakers are a 43 win team? And THEN you add on the great big on top of the already .500 team, and everybody gushes about what a great winner he is for adding 15 more wins to his team's total?

And then along comes DeMarcus, stuck with a sad sack 14 win a year team, and he adds 19 wins...but HE'S the loser?

You want to take a guess what I think would happen if you traded Cousins off someplace that had a .500 supporting cast in place without him? Uh huh. Kings fans better pray that one day is with us.

Brick, didn't you say in on the other thread that we were going to lose to the Warriors regardless if Cuz was ejected or not? Couldn't that some logic be applied to records without him? Someone can make the argument that we would've lost the game vs. a tough opponent with or without Cuz too?

It's pretty easy for the Spurs to go above .500 when they had future HOFs in Parker and Ginoboli...

Rockets had a few scrubs named Otis Thorp, Clyde Drexler, and a fat guy named Charles Barkley too.

Maybe one day the Kings can have an all-time great in Kobe Bryant.

Yes the Kings have had a crap roster, but those teams all had amazing players...poor comparison.

You act like if we got rid of Cousins, we'd get absolutely 0 in return. What if his replacement was a star? If we didn't have Cousins, we would most likely have another player in place of him.

 

[Bricklayer]

Brick, didn't you say in on the other thread that we were going to lose to the Warriors regardless if Cuz was ejected or not? Couldn't that some logic be applied to records without him? Someone can make the argument that we would've lost the game vs. a tough opponent with or without Cuz too?

It's pretty easy for the Spurs to go above .500 when they had future HOFs in Parker and Ginoboli...

Rockets had a few scrubs named Otis Thorp, Clyde Drexler, and a fat guy named Charles Barkley too.

Maybe one day the Kings can have an all-time great in Kobe Bryant.

Yes the Kings have had a poopoo roster, but those teams all had amazing players...poor comparison.

You act like if we got rid of Cousins, we'd get absolutely 0 in return. What if his replacement was a star? If we didn't have Cousins, we would most likely have another player in place of him.

The logic of your post is highly confused.

My point was exactly that the Spurs had Manu and Tony (although not for the whole period).

My point throughout has been precisely that Cousins is adding just as many wins as any great big in history that people like to fawn over, but that people get lost because of the overall team record. They can't separate the team suck from Cousins. That is until you actually take Cousins out of the equation, and then you see the way things truly are.

I can literally think of no other star of this magnitude who has had to endure such an incompetent organization supporting cast for so long. Sure, it happens for a year or two, but inevitably either the franchise rallies around its guy, or the guy demands out and goes off to win elsewhere.

I think Vlade is a step ahead of the fanbase in this realization. Therefore I think in the long run it will work out. But many fans are lost and poisoned by various dipcraps, and so I will continue throwing these numbers down as often as is necessary for the poison to be leeched. Cousins isn't making us lose. Cousins is making us win the same way all truly great bigs do. Its the rest of the team that has been a complete disaster for years. There's synergy now between Rondo and Cuz, Casspi and Cuz. The rest is very fuzzy.

 

[fansinceday1]

The logic of your post is highly confused.

My point was exactly that the Spurs had Manu and Tony (although not for the whole period).

My point throughout has been precisely that Cousins is adding just as many wins as any great big in history that people like to fawn over, but that people get lost because of the overall team record. They can't separate the team suck from Cousins. That is until you actually take Cousins out of the equation, and then you see the way things truly are.

I can literally think of no other star of this magnitude who has had to endure such an incompetent organization supporting cast for so long. Sure, it happens for a year or two, but inevitably either the franchise rallies around its guy, or the guy demands out and goes off to win elsewhere.

I think Vlade is a step ahead of the fanbase in this realization. Therefore I think in the long run it will work out. But many fans are lost and poisoned by various dippoopoos, and so I will continue throwing these numbers down as often as is necessary for the poison to be leeched. Cousins isn't making us lose. Cousins is making us win the same way all truly great bigs do. Its the rest of the team that has been a complete disaster for years. There's synergy now between Rondo and Cuz, Casspi and Cuz. The rest is very fuzzy.

Unfortunately, this is the complete opposite that the TV voice of the kings is spouting on his show. He has been spouting crap for an hour and a half and he has the fans all whipped into a frenzy to dump demarcus. Even going as far as saying "If you listening Demarcus, we are tired of this crap".

 

[Glenn]

Unfortunately, this is the complete opposite that the TV voice of the kings is spouting on his show. He has been spouting crap for an hour and a half and he has the fans all whipped into a frenzy to dump demarcus. Even going as far as saying "If you listening Demarcus, we are tired of this crap".

Grant got orgasmic with happiness when Cuz was tossed. That irked me as much as anything. He can't even support the Kings. When he went on to blame Cuz for the next two threes the Warriors made, I was very disgusted. Grant had fallen through the looking glass. He has a personal animosity towards Cuz and that shouldn't be part of his job description. Jerry meekly follows his lead.

I watched the play again and the first thing Grant said was that McLemore got called for the foul. Then upon replay he thought it was obvious that Cuz committed the foul. I'll try to be unbiased here by saying that the foul could have been ignored or called. It's the kind of thing that happens at the rim all the time. Given that Cuz has buddies on the Warriors, given that he missed the first two games, given that he was probably looking forward to this game as much as any game of the season, given that he had 3 quick fouls called, and given this foul was not all as clear as people might want it to be, I can understand his anger. I would have been very bugged by this given the entire circumstance. It does not excuse him blowing up at all but it puts it into context. How many times has he been tossed this year?

Boogie has come a long way in laying off fouls which darn near killed him in the first several years. How many times did we all say he could offer so much more if he didn't foul so much? He has solved that in my view. That's a big step. I hope we can drop it and move onward. People can change but it doesn't happen as quickly as the amateur psychiatrists would like it to be.