Kings - Jazz post game discussion

[Emma]

If another one of these pops up soon, delete this one.

So, what's up with the pounding? I couldn't follow the game. Let me guess: Kirilenko defended Evans and forced him into 71 turnovers, then blocked all of Spencer's free throws. That guy can be pretty nasty sometimes.

 

[DocHolliday]

If another one of these pops up soon, delete this one.

So, what's up with the pounding? I couldn't follow the game. Let me guess: Kirilenko defended Evans and forced him into 71 turnovers, then blocked all of Spencer's free throws. That guy can be pretty nasty sometimes. Could have been Williams showing 'Reke how to play PG for real too, I suppose.

Tyreke was 6-13 for 21 pts, 5 assists, 4 rebounds...yep Williams sure schooled him.

 

[Kings Faithful]

I'm usually one to defend Hawes... but 1 point on 0-6 shooting, 1-6 from the freethrow line in 19 minutes of play is sad... especially for a center who is known as an offensive minded player.

 

[Emma]

Tyreke was 6-13 for 21 pts, 5 assists, 4 rebounds...yep Williams sure schooled him.

Well, I guess I'm off to edit my post. Happily

 

[mac]

I'm usually one to defend Hawes... but 1 point on 0-6 shooting, 1-6 from the freethrow line in 19 minutes of play is sad... especially for a center who is known as an offensive minded player.

Agreed, and I'm really disheartened that he took so many 3s. Obviously I couldnt watch the game but the only times I heard the radio people talking about Hawes on offence was "Hawes shoots a 3". Pardon my laziness to check where he took his shots from.

Which brings me back to why on earth Coachie is working with Spencer on shooting 3 pointers. He hasn't even shown that he can be a reliable threat in the post and already we're training our center to catch and shoot. I'm referring to one of the kingsdotcom videos, where you can clearly see Spencer in the background catching and shooting first 3s and then from the free throw area. And for someone who's working on shooting so much, he sure sucked from the charity stripe today

 

[fnordius]

Short answer: we lost because of way too many TOs, missed FT, and by playing worse D than Utah.

And yes, Hawes was dreadful.

 

[IDidntDoDat]

If another one of these pops up soon, delete this one.

So, what's up with the pounding? I couldn't follow the game. Let me guess: Kirilenko defended Evans and forced him into 71 turnovers, then blocked all of Spencer's free throws. That guy can be pretty nasty sometimes.

ROFL

But yea, Spencer was definitely haweful. Tyreke on the other hand was pretty impressive, as always. The only thing he's sucking at is limiting his turnovers.. Casspi had a great game and continues to impress. Sean May was great. JT impressive too..

Spencer definitely played with a skirt on

 

[rainmaker]

Spencer didn't have a good preseason last year, but once the season started he improved from month to month for the entire season. He's been disappointing for the most part, but I'll reserve judegement until I see how he comes out and plays when the season starts.

I don't think bringing Spencer off the bench is helping either. He's struggling, but I think you have to keep him in there with the starters, and let him play through it. And putting Sean May in at center just doesn't make sense to me. I could understand bringing Spencer off the bench if we had another legitimate center, but we don't. I think may can contribute, but I don't want him suiting up as our starting center on wednesday.

 

[Bricklayer]

Spencer didn't have a good preseason last year, but once the season started he improved from month to month for the entire season. He's been disappointing for the most part, but I'll reserve judegement until I see how he comes out and plays when the season starts.

Well, not quite -- if you recall he started off last year fast, but then went into an ugly slump in December which actually sent him to the bench. Don't think he got back off of it until February or so when he started improving again. But I definitely do remeber him refutingthe crappy start to camp with a big game at the end of it, and then a big first month before fading. Its just going to be a waste of talent if he turns out too soft to consistently bring it against the big boys. Not impossible to predict perhaps. But too bad nonetheless.

I stated way back at the beginning of preseason that if Westphal actually started May at center over Hawes to start the season I was going to be pissed and call for his head. I still might, but I will say that the one and only excuse for doing that might be to try to wake Spencer up. From all reports he comes across as both stubborn and self-righteous at times, and maybe a slap in the face is what he needs right now to wake up and grow a pair before the soft label begins to really stick to him like glue.

 

[Gary]

gonna be a TO filled season

 

[Bricklayer]

You know, just noticed something, and I hate to bring this up (actually if you know me you know that I anything but hate to bring this up), but I think that there might, just might, be a tad of hypocrisy going on here. Couple nights back, in a far far higher scoring game, peeps were up in arms about the Suns shooting 50FTs to our less than 50, and trying to blame the 143pts and loss on that. Tonight in a much lower scoring game, we shoot 45 FTs without our main flopper, to the Jazz's 24, and oddly....not a peep of outrage or hint that maybe the game would have been a blowout wihtout that discrepancy. Odd how that works.

 

[Jechtsphere]

gonna be a TO filled season

It's always been a TO filled season though, isn't it?

 

[bibbinator]

I watched the game tonight at Arco. We'll lose a lot this year, but it won't be pathetic like it has been for a while. Evans is a warrior. Every team in the league is going to have to have a plan to handle him. Evans alone makes us un-pathetic. Casspi and Brockman bring added fire to the team.

Not this season, but next, I think this team will be competing for a bottom playoff seed if they can turn all the potential they have into reality.

 

[Dreadnought]

I watched the game tonight at Arco. We'll lose a lot this year, but it won't be pathetic like it has been for a while. Evans is a warrior. Every team in the league is going to have to have a plan to handle him. Evans alone makes us un-pathetic. Casspi and Brockman bring added fire to the team.

Not this season, but next, I think this team will be competing for a bottom playoff seed if they can turn all the potential they have into reality.

I agree wholeheartedly, only it is a big if, especially since JT and Hawes definitely have not developed as well as I expected them to. I think that if Kings somehow land a semi-major to major star in free agency, Tyreke has an excellent year under his belt, we get a great new rookie, and JT and Hawes actually develop into what we all want them to be, then the Kings would actually be a pretty dangerous team really fast.

 

[sactownfan]

I stated way back at the beginning of preseason that if Westphal actually started May at center over Hawes to start the season I was going to be pissed and call for his head. I still might, but I will say that the one and only excuse for doing that might be to try to wake Spencer up. From all reports he comes across as both stubborn and self-righteous at times, and maybe a slap in the face is what he needs right now to wake up and grow a pair before the soft label begins to really stick to him like glue.

I like that Hawes is on the bench... hes pissing me off more than Beno or K9 at this point, because HE'S SUPPOSE TO HAVE TALENT.... but he's too weak and too scared to play down low. so he wants to be the 7ft tall brent Barry...

Hawes should be held out of games untill hes ready to bang down low... maybe it will start to set in that this 3pt weak game of his is a bunch of crap, and he needs wake up and maybe put on 20 more pounds of muscle

 

[Chupacabra]

I dont like the idea of Thompson and Hawes being spoken of as siamese twins. Right now Thompson looks like a keeper and Hawes looks like hes about to fade into obscurity. Hawes isnt tough and he never will be. Brad Miller 2.0 , i think he should be traded while he appears to have upside.

 

[Bricklayer]

I dont like the idea of Thompson and Hawes being spoken of as siamese twins. Right now Thompson looks like a keeper and Hawes looks like hes about to fade into obscurity. Hawes isnt tough and he never will be. Brad Miller 2.0 , i think he should be traded while he appears to have upside.

Difference, and its a huge one: Hawes has the makings of a really nasty post game. Miller was hopeless in there. Problem is Spencer refuses to use it, but its not the same thing as not having any hope the way Miller did.

There is no particular reason Spencer couldn't play the game the way Vlade did -- inside-out, except for his own head. What bothers me nearly as much is the sporadic impression we have gotten that various people in the Kings hierarchy have been acting as enablers, encouraging the three point game, the outside in bunk. I would pay good money to have Pat Riley on the staff right now.

 

[6th]

Don't get me wrong. I am ticked off that Hawes is shooting all the 3s and not playing in the post. However, the coach must have something to do with that. I just don't know how much. If Westphal was telling him to get his butt into the post and play there, don't you think we'd see him there? Spencer is not creating the offense, the coaching staff is (supposedly) doing that. And, someone mentioned that Coachie was spending time with Spencer on shooting his 3s. Has Coaching talked Westphal into playing Spencer out high?

I don't know what is going on, but IT AIN'T WORKING, COACH!

 

[Chupacabra]

Difference, and its a huge one: Hawes has the makings of a really nasty post game. Miller was hopeless in there. Problem is Spencer refuses to use it, but its not the same thing as not having any hope the way Miller did.

There is no particular reason Spencer couldn't play the game the way Vlade did -- inside-out, except for his own head. What bothers me nearly as much is the sporadic impression we have gotten that various people in the Kings hierarchy have been acting as enablers, encouraging the three point game, the outside in bunk. I would pay good money to have Pat Riley on the staff right now.

I honestly dont care for anybodys post game if theyre not going to bring defense. In my opinion, center is the most important position on defense. Hawes is fail. Its too bad the FO doesnt share my opinion.

 

[mac]

You know, just noticed something, and I hate to bring this up (actually if you know me you know that I anything but hate to bring this up), but I think that there might, just might, be a tad of hypocrisy going on here. Couple nights back, in a far far higher scoring game, peeps were up in arms about the Suns shooting 50FTs to our less than 50, and trying to blame the 143pts and loss on that. Tonight in a much lower scoring game, we shoot 45 FTs without our main flopper, to the Jazz's 24, and oddly....not a peep of outrage or hint that maybe the game would have been a blowout wihtout that discrepancy. Odd how that works.

Well I didn't take note of how many FTs we took (just saying, I know you're making a general comment). You're right then, it would have been a blowout without that discrepancy. Perhaps the only thing that was good about this game was the rebounding. I know we didn't outrebound them by a large margin, only 1 in fact? But it's still nice to know that for the first time in ages we're winning the rebounding battles in most of the games we've played.

Perhaps the Kings are just destined to have a fixed level (a very low one) of toughness. With the additions of Brockman and Casspi Spencer had to lose some toughness. Or we just wouldn't be the Kings.

 

[ParniValjak]

Difference, and its a huge one: Hawes has the makings of a really nasty post game. Miller was hopeless in there. Problem is Spencer refuses to use it, but its not the same thing as not having any hope the way Miller did.

There is no particular reason Spencer couldn't play the game the way Vlade did -- inside-out, except for his own head. What bothers me nearly as much is the sporadic impression we have gotten that various people in the Kings hierarchy have been acting as enablers, encouraging the three point game, the outside in bunk. I would pay good money to have Pat Riley on the staff right now.

This is what I agree with, Hawes has the potential to be a really potent low post offensive threat and he has a jumpshot to mix it up. There is no reason why he cannto play the sort of game that Valde did, other than the fact that he is a total pantsy who doesn't like contact.

At some point we simply have to weight the option of whether or not its worth it. There really is no difference between having a jump shooting soft C and a C who has nasty low post game bu preferes to lurk out on the perimeter and chuck up jumper after jumper. If you are not going to use that post game then its just as bad as not having one to start with.

I am really starting to get pissed off with Hawes and they way he seems to be getting softer and softer every game. FFS grow a pair and toughen up princess! You are 7'1 its time you actually started playing like it.

I am just wondering with our lack of shooters on the roster if we are trying to turn out C into a jump shooting perimeter threat. If we are then it truly is a sad affair. I can see Westphal's reasoning for brigning Hawes off the bench but I question front office's thinking in assembling an mosquito fleet of a roster with only one player over 7'0 and only 2 over 6'11.

It time the front office pulled their finger out and either signed or traded for a solid 3rd big to add to the rotations. As solid as Sean May has been, he ain't going to cut it in the long run.

 

[AriesMar27]

wow... this game so couldve been won at the free throw line...

 

[Showtime]

Difference, and its a huge one: Hawes has the makings of a really nasty post game. Miller was hopeless in there. Problem is Spencer refuses to use it,

I really am getting sick of these comments, and ones similar to them. It's not that Spencer refuses to use it, it's that the coaches refuse to make it a key emphasis of the offense. How many PLAYS are designed, that you have seen, run through a post man? When JT or Hawes runs down the floor, establishes position, and calls for the ball, he might or might not get it depending on if the passer feels like making the entry pass. Usually, JT or Hawes is out by the 3 point line, setting a screen and then rolling out. How is that use of a big conducive to the post game? The next game you watch, count how many times they try to establish position, and how many times they have to come out and set a screen, and then how many times they actually get position and get the pass.

Now, look at a team like the Spurs, who don't treat their post game like an afterthought. Sure, they have Duncan, but they make sure he GETS the BALL down low once he gets position, and they let him work and do his job. Even if he doesn't look to score, they still can create with that option. The Kings used post players on the high block as playmaking options. Hawes can do that, but the offense refuses to use him in that matter, because they don't focus on that area. You can't expect a player to just be a great post scorer when A) he knows he can't always look to get position because he's too buys setting screens at the 3 line, B) even if he does, he doesn't always get the ball passed to him, and C), the previous two points shows the coaches don't want to use that aspect of him in the offense.

This falls on the coaches for not emphasizing the post game, not on Spencer for refusing to use it.

 

[6th]

This falls on the coaches for not emphasizing the post game, not on Spencer for refusing to use it.

That's exactly what I was trying to say in post #18. Well said! We keep dumping all over Spencer for following our COACHES offensive schemes.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

\
This falls on the coaches for not emphasizing the post game, not on Spencer for refusing to use it.

This isnt really fair. We dont know what the coaches are telling Spence .. and we dont know how Hawes is reacting to it.

What we do know is that Hawes lost his starting spot that every last one of us thought was a lock for him. We know he isnt rebounding, isnt scoring, and isnt playing any type of D. All that cannot fall on coaching.

Im not giving up on him yet, but this year will tell us alot.

I think he should still start over May .. I still think Mason in the starting lineup is rediculous ( however it seems like a lot of Kings fans are ok with it now .. ) and Im starting to get a little upset with how this season could turn out ( Vets getting PT, players playing out of position ect .. ) but I guess i'll have to wait and see.

 

[dbfish]

Difference, and its a huge one: Hawes has the makings of a really nasty post game. Miller was hopeless in there. Problem is Spencer refuses to use it, but its not the same thing as not having any hope the way Miller did.

There is no particular reason Spencer couldn't play the game the way Vlade did -- inside-out, except for his own head. What bothers me nearly as much is the sporadic impression we have gotten that various people in the Kings hierarchy have been acting as enablers, encouraging the three point game, the outside in bunk. I would pay good money to have Pat Riley on the staff right now.

Maybe a Mike Singletary would help. The sooner Spencer gets away from his shooting guard mentality and nails his foot in the post, the better off he and the team will be.
When he was drafted I thought he was a good fit. If we had another option, which we don't, he would be shooting his 3's from the bench. We desperately need another center on the team that can rebound and hopefully light a fire under Hawes' wimpy butt.

 

[6th]

This isnt really fair. We dont know what the coaches are telling Spence .. and we dont know how Hawes is reacting to it.

What we do know is that Hawes lost his starting spot that every last one of us thought was a lock for him. We know he isnt rebounding, isnt scoring, and isnt playing any type of D. All that cannot fall on coaching.

Im not giving up on him yet, but this year will tell us alot.

I think he should still start over May .. I still think Mason in the starting lineup is rediculous ( however it seems like a lot of Kings fans are ok with it now .. ) and Im starting to get a little upset with how this season could turn out ( Vets getting PT, players playing out of position ect .. ) but I guess i'll have to wait and see.

While I hear what you are saying (Spencer is playing like sh**), his playing out of the post has to be on the coaching staff. As mentioned before, there is tape of Coachie working with Spencer on his 3 pt shot. And tell me that Spencer would be getting any playing time at all if he were not consistently playing where the Coach wants him to play. It's not like he is drifting out from time to time. He plants himself outside.

 

[sactownfan]

I think coachie is working on Hawes 3pt shots as a great ability to have as a 5... but i think theres a reason Hawes is coming off the bench and its not because hes doing a great job. He deserves to be on the bench... May is outplaying him.

 

[bajaden]

I agree wholeheartedly, only it is a big if, especially since JT and Hawes definitely have not developed as well as I expected them to. I think that if Kings somehow land a semi-major to major star in free agency, Tyreke has an excellent year under his belt, we get a great new rookie, and JT and Hawes actually develop into what we all want them to be, then the Kings would actually be a pretty dangerous team really fast.

I think you need to quit lumping JT and Hawes together. JT is way ahead of Hawes right now and is having a fine preseason. I didn't see last nights game, obviously, but my friend was there again and told me that JT played very well. As did Evans, Casspi, and Brockman in limited minutes. His opinion is that the turning point of the game was when Beno came in and stunk up the place. I take that with a grain of salt, because he doesn't like Beno very much. But the team did go south when he came into the game.

I've been a big supporter of Hawes, but last night he just plain stunk. Talk is cheap, and he's a good talker. If thats what I want I'll just listen to a politician lie. I liked him in college because of his advanced post game. Especially for his age. We don't need a center standing out at the three point line firing away. We need defense and rebounds. If he can't do those things, or, at least look like he's trying, then trade his sorry butt somewhere else. Yeah, I know its just one game. But I'm starting to see a trend developing. He's at a point in his career where you develop your image. Or at least the perception of such. Thompson's image around the league is, so far, a positive one. A promising one. Hawes is starting to go the opposite way. He needs to make a statement on who he's going to be as a player. And Now!

One final note. Its very obvious that the Kings are in for a long haul if they don't aquire someone to backup the center position. They're putting Westphal in a tough position. He only has two true big men on the team. And as he stated, if he starts them together and one gets into foul trouble, he has no one he can bring in to match up with the other teams bigs. You can play small ball against some of the teams in the league. But when you play a team like Utah, your going to get killed when you try.

It also appears to me that Hawes plays better when he's on the floor with Thompson. I have my opinion as to why, but I'll keep it to myself for the time being. But it appears that Westphal is reluctant to start Hawes with Thompson without another big on the bench to bring in. I understand his thinking, but I'm a believer in starting the best starting five, and to my mind that means Hawes and Thompson together. So please, just sign someone, Jake Voskul, Darrell Watkins, Dwayne Jones, but someone. Hell, even Ely was better than no one.. And please, start Casspi.. Because right now, Mason is having trouble even making his 12" jumper. Thats a layup for the uninformed..

 

[bajaden]

Difference, and its a huge one: Hawes has the makings of a really nasty post game. Miller was hopeless in there. Problem is Spencer refuses to use it, but its not the same thing as not having any hope the way Miller did.

There is no particular reason Spencer couldn't play the game the way Vlade did -- inside-out, except for his own head. What bothers me nearly as much is the sporadic impression we have gotten that various people in the Kings hierarchy have been acting as enablers, encouraging the three point game, the outside in bunk. I would pay good money to have Pat Riley on the staff right now.

I've got a couple of bucks I'll chip in. I agree with you, but right now I'm busy trying to calm down and get Spence off of my S*** list.