Kings - Grizzlies

[Smills91]

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/t...&cash=

Kings deal:
Kevin Martin
Quincy Douby
Kenny Thomas
Mikki Moore

Griz deal:
Pau Gasol
Andre Brown
Casey Jacobson
Brian Cardinal

Why for the Kings:
Salmons/Garcia/Dahntay can fill the vacated 2 spot left by Kevin Martin and Gasol is the same age as most of the Kings main players (Artest, Bibby, Miller, Salmons) Gasol gives the Kings the PF they've been searching for since C-Webb got hurt.

Why for the Grizz:
With a less than enthused Gasol who seems not to fit as well with the up-tempo style of the Grizz(specifically Conley/Gay as their future core), Martin AND Douby look like two young pieces that would excel in a fast breaking style that can be added to their young core. The grizz add a future all-star at the 2 guard spot who's only 24 years old and average nearly 25 ppg this season.

New rosters:

Kings -
C: Brad Miller, Spencer Hawes, Justin Williams
PF: Pau Gasol, Brian Cardinal, Andre Brown, SAR
SF: Ron Artest, Francisco Garcia, Casey Jacobson
SG: John Salmons, Dahntay Jones
PG: Mike Bibby, Beno Udrih

Grizzlies -
C: Darko Milicic, Stromile Swift
PF: Mikki Moore, Hakim Warrick, Kenny Thomas
SF: Rudy Gay, Mike Miller, Bobby Jones
SG: Kevin Martin, Quincy Douby, Juan Carlos Navarro
PG: Mike Conley, Kyle Lowry, Damon Stoudamire

 

[Dime Dropper]

Why?


One last gasped attempt to get a 'ship instead of doing it properly? So, basically we would have this season to compete and then it's over. Artest is gone after this season. So, again we're left with an even worse problem. Not that we'd actually have a chance to win one with that team.
Gasol's a good player, but he's not the answer. And giving up the few small pieces we have working towards the future is even sillier. Getting rid of KT is not worth messing up our future even more than it already is.


I don't know, maybe I should stop coming to this personnel moves forum. Same old band aid formula being re-posted again and again. And not one has been even remotely realistic that I've seen.

 

[Heuge]

Why?

because apparently Smills like 125-120 games. Defense is overrated...

 

[hearns]

because apparently Smills like 125-120 games. Defense is overrated...

In fact the defense would be better after this trade: Salmons would have the Martin's minutes, and Salmons D>>>Martin D, and Gasol is a better rebounder and shotblocker than any of our bigs.

Of course Gasol is better offensively than any of our bigs too, and he fits in the last years Kings' style: a PF with superb bball-IQ, great passing and ballhanding skills. And Gasol is more team oriented than Webber. Not saying he's better than Webber, but he is still more team oriented: if he has to take 10 shots he will.

I like a lot the idea of Gasol for Martin. The problem is Martin is a PPP player and the trade is not easy.

A 3 way deal can be the solution, but we'd have to give our 1st. I was thinking about something like:

MIAMI
In: Mike Miller, Brian Cardinal, Damon Stoudamire
Out: Ricky Davis, Jason Williams, Alonzo Mourning

O'neal/Blount
Haslem/Cardinal
Miller/Wright
Wade/Cook
Stoudamire/Parker

MEMPHIS
In: Kevin Martin, 2 of SAR/Thomas/Moore, Jason Williams, Mourning, Ricky Davis, Kings 08 1st
Out: Pau Gasol, Brian Cardinal, Mike Miller, Damon Stoudamire

Milicic
Swift/Warrick/ 2 of SAR-Thomas-Moore
Gay/Davis
Martin/Navarro
Conley/Lowry/Williams

SACRAMENTO
In: Pau Gasol
Out: Kevin Martin, 08 1st, 2 of Moore/Thomas/SAR

Miller/Hawes
Gasol/ 1 of Moore-Thomas-SAR
Artest/Garcia
Salmons/Douby/Jones
Bibby/Udrih

 

[chrisnu]

That doesn't improve the Grizzlies enough to make it worthwhile for them. Having Martin starting and Miller as the sixth man is not enough of an improvement to compensate for starting Mikki Moore instead of Pau Gasol.

 

[nbrans]

Good god.

 

[Bricklayer]

Think I liked my Martin/Bibby for Gasol/Conley deal better.

Had a thought while wtaching that Orlando game BTW, but have not had time to flesh it out. They need a trustworthy floor general. Even though it seems like too much offense, could they ahve interest in Bibby? Have lots of enders... (of course they would probably go for Andre Miller first I would think).

 

[hearns]

Think I liked my Martin/Bibby for Gasol/Conley deal better.

The problem is Memphis wouldn't do that.

 

[Smills91]

Wow...with the way that Salmons/Garcia and even Dahntay Jones I think MArtin is expendable and able to bring about the most bang for the buck really. We ditch Kenny's deal. We get a player who's age range and talent's are a GREAT fit with our current roster in just ONE trade. No need to make 3 to 4 trades just to get the contracts/roster pieces we need. Also by doing this trade we basically ditch out of Kevin's contract extension. We're essentially replacing Gasol's contract with that of Kenny's current deal, Martin's current deal and Douby's current deal. That gives us cap flexibility to re-sign Beno. Sign an MLE level talent(which would be useful with our team/roster) and perhaps even re-sign Ron Artest if he does indeed opt out, while having some money to sign our 1st round pick which after adding Gasol I could see the Kings becoming a 7th-8th seed this year and have a pick in the 18-20 range. In that range I envision a tywon lawson/darren collison caliber PG being available to draft.

Kings 2008-2009 roster

C: Brad Miller, Spencer Hawes, Justin Williams
PF: Pau Gasol, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Brian Cardinal
SF: Ron Artest(re-signed), Francisco Garcia (MLE)
SG: John Salmons, Dahntay Jones
PG: Mike Bibby, Beno Udrih, (1st round pick 2008)

That line-up is STACKED....and honestly gives us 3 more years(the length of time before we get seriously under the cap). We'll still have Garcia, Udrih, Williams and Hawes as current building blocks of the future, and winning ALWAYS increases the trade value of our talent. Ron/Gasol/Salmons is the core at age 27 apiece. That gives you 4-5 years to win now with those guys. Bibby/Brad can give 2-3 years before Beno/Hawes takes over.

I think it makes a LOT of sense basketball wise AND financially as well.

~Hearn~

For my trade above in the Original post, it's accounted for the PPP. It works according to the ESPN trade checker. So trading Martin for Gasol is VERY feasible to do.

What's not to like about this plan? Kings win now and very well could have the ability to go far in the playoffs NOW AND have it set up to where the young core to build off into the future being built right below the current starters and when the vet contracts expire in 3-4 years, the Kings then have significant cap space AND A GOOD reputation from previously good seasons under Theus to SIGN a SIGNIFCANT Free Agent to catapult us with the young core we now have. I think it's a solid and merit worthy proposal IMO.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

The problem is Memphis wouldn't do that.

Yeah, Memphis fans really hated that deal.

 

[Dime Dropper]

Wow...with the way that Salmons/Garcia and even Dahntay Jones I think MArtin is expendable and able to bring about the most bang for the buck really. We ditch Kenny's deal. We get a player who's age range and talent's are a GREAT fit with our current roster in just ONE trade. No need to make 3 to 4 trades just to get the contracts/roster pieces we need. Also by doing this trade we basically ditch out of Kevin's contract extension. We're essentially replacing Gasol's contract with that of Kenny's current deal, Martin's current deal and Douby's current deal. That gives us cap flexibility to re-sign Beno. Sign an MLE level talent(which would be useful with our team/roster) and perhaps even re-sign Ron Artest if he does indeed opt out, while having some money to sign our 1st round pick which after adding Gasol I could see the Kings becoming a 7th-8th seed this year and have a pick in the 18-20 range. In that range I envision a tywon lawson/darren collison caliber PG being available to draft.

So you'd be willing to give up K-Mart for a 7th/8th seed. That's crazy. That team would not compete. Stop with the band aid crap and think of things realistically. And Collison will not be on the board at 18-20 - take it to the bank. Why try for a trade that will get us 18th pick when you can try for one that will get us top 5? I don't get it. You're far too desperate to get rid of KTs contract, it's not worth giving up our future for.

Kings 2008-2009 roster

C: Brad Miller, Spencer Hawes, Justin Williams
PF: Pau Gasol, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Brian Cardinal
SF: Ron Artest(re-signed), Francisco Garcia (MLE)
SG: Kevin Martin, John Salmons, Dahntay Jones
PG: Mike Bibby, Beno Udrih, (1st round pick 2008)

I would like to know how Martin is still on our team as you just traded him.
And that team is not stacked. It's a good starting line-up, but bad defensively, and the bench is not good enough to be at a championship level as a backup unit.

That line-up is STACKED....and honestly gives us 3 more years(the length of time before we get seriously under the cap). We'll still have Garcia, Udrih, Williams and Hawes as current building blocks of the future, and winning ALWAYS increases the trade value of our talent. Ron/Gasol/Salmons is the core at age 27 apiece. That gives you 4-5 years to win now with those guys. Bibby/Brad can give 2-3 years before Beno/Hawes takes over.

I see you're still ignoring the fact that Ron is not going to resign again. He's not. Which leaves us with this year to compete. Which is highly unrealistic. Beno will never, ever, start on a championship team. And Hawes certainly won't be able to start for a championship team in 2/3 years.

You're making things sound rosier than they are, start thinking realistically. This is ridiculous.

 

[Smills91]

They'd only be a 7th 8th seed because of the first half of this season and all the injuries...in all actuality I'd think they'd be anywhere from a legit 3-5 seed with the roster I propose. They'd have to probably take on the Mavs or Suns, but I think this team with the addition of Pau Gasol has the capability of knocking off one of those teams.

As for the roster, force of habit, my bad..Salmons would be starting.

Also, why wouldn't Ron re-sign? He could be offered the most money here for the most years, he says he likes Sacramento and the franchise and the Maloofs, he's NOW got the personnel here that will allow them to compete....

This isn't a Martin for Gasol trade...

This is a Martin/Mikki Moore vs. Gasol/Salmons trade...what combination would you prefer?

 

[Glenn]

I see you're still ignoring the fact that Ron is not going to resign again. He's not. Which leaves us with this year to compete.

Ron will not resign if he is willing to settle for the MLE from another team.

 

[VF21]

If a team wants Ron Artest badly enough, I'm reasonably sure they'll find a way around the salary cap to get him. The idea that only 2-3 teams could get him for the price he'll most likely command is just not realistic.

 

[Glenn]

If a team wants Ron Artest badly enough, I'm reasonably sure they'll find a way around the salary cap to get him. The idea that only 2-3 teams could get him for the price he'll most likely command is just not realistic.

I am going to guess there is a way Ron can get more than the MLE but it requires the cooperation of the Kings. If the Kings want him, he's going nowhere for more than $5.8 mil or whatever the MLE will be. Not only will it be no more than the MLE, he will also lose the two years invested towards getting Bird Rights. The only team that can help him establish his Bird Rights is the Sacramento Kings.

If it's not realistic, show me how he can get more than the MLE.

 

[Warhawk]

I am going to guess there is a way Ron can get more than the MLE but it requires the cooperation of the Kings. If the Kings want him, he's going nowhere for more than $5.8 mil or whatever the MLE will be. Not only will it be no more than the MLE, he will also lose the two years invested towards getting Bird Rights. The only team that can help him establish his Bird Rights is the Sacramento Kings.

If it's not realistic, show me how he can get more than the MLE.

I bet she was thinking a S&T. I was.

 

[Smills91]

I bet she was thinking a S&T. I was.

That would require the cooperation of the Kings to part with Artest...if they want to re-sign him, I doubt they help another team do it, unless of course they give into similar demands that would land a team Artest now(picks, young GOOD PF etc.)

 

[Glenn]

I bet she was thinking a S&T. I was.

My point is that he cannot simply pack his bags and leave unless he is willing to give up millions of dollars. At a minimum, it is $3 mil next year. The loss of Bird Rights is worth a lot more over time.

People have been talking as if he will be gone at the end of the season. Perhaps so but if he enjoys money, he will not leave without the Kings getting something substantial in return.

We might not like him and we might not think he fits in the offense but there are teams who see a hard working, extremely good defensive player with the ability to score. No one can question his work ethic and he has gone the extra mile in helping rookies. THAT has value.

Artest is NOT a worthless commodity and we have control over his fate unless money is not a concern for him. We will get something in return. It is either that or he won't leave.

If I am wrong, someone spell out how we get nothing from the Ron Artest experience. I have never been hesitant to admit I am wrong but vague statements about him leaving do not add up to his actually leaving unless I am missing something.

 

[Dime Dropper]

I think people here are assuming Artest wouldn't take the mid-level if he wanted to leave. He's never really been about the money, and he is Ron Artest. Craziness could play a little part in what he does/where he goes.

 

[Glenn]

I think people here are assuming Artest wouldn't take the mid-level if he wanted to leave. He's never really been about the money, and he is Ron Artest. Craziness could play a little part in what he does/where he goes.

Ron is impulsive. The terms nut case and crazy don't fit.

In this scenario, he can make up his own mind if he wants to throw away what might end up being 10's of millions of dollars but he has no mental disorder that I know of that would effect his decision. I also have never heard anything that would convince me that money won't sway his decision. Some basketball players say it is not that important but when it comes to signing a contract, money wins.

Anybody remember a young Brian Grant who said he would play for a bag of chips and a coke? He left the Kings for the highest bidder.

 

[Dime Dropper]

Ron is impulsive. The terms nut case and crazy don't fit.

In this scenario, he can make up his own mind if he wants to throw away what might end up being 10's of millions of dollars but he has no mental disorder that I know of that would effect his decision. I also have never heard anything that would convince me that money won't sway his decision. Some basketball players say it is not that important but when it comes to signing a contract, money wins.

Anybody remember a young Brian Grant who said he would play for a bag of chips and a coke? He left the Kings for the highest bidder.

If Ron Artest has his heart set on leaving the Kings after this year, he is not going to stay for more money. It's not as if he won't be financially secure for the rest of his life. He also has a rap career to fall back on


He has been reasonably well behaved, but based upon his career and personality, it's clear he's not 100% equipped to be a "normal" player. Teams see that, and they're not going to disregard it just because he has talent. Teams will always be weary.

Not all players are the same.

And to answer that question honestly, I don't remember that happening.
Depending on how long ago it happened, I may not even have been born

 

[Smills91]

Ron's takes advice from his agent, his agent gets a 'cut' of his salary...his agent is NOT going to advise him to take MLE money.

 

[Dime Dropper]

Ron's takes advice from his agent, his agent gets a 'cut' of his salary...his agent is NOT going to advise him to take MLE money.

Unfortunately for his agent, it's Ron that will ultimately make the decision. I'm sure his agent didn't publicly want Ron to demand a trade in Indy.

Again, I'm not saying Ron will take the mid-level, merely saying it's a very real possibilty. Nothing can be dis-counted with Ron Artest.

 

[VF21]

Ron Artest has come out very publicly recently and said he wants a championship. I think at the end of the day the team he chooses will be the one that he believes offers him the best opportunity to reach that goal.

 

[Smills91]

Unfortunately for his agent, it's Ron that will ultimately make the decision. I'm sure his agent didn't publicly want Ron to demand a trade in Indy.

Again, I'm not saying Ron will take the mid-level, merely saying it's a very real possibilty. Nothing can be dis-counted with Ron Artest.

No it's really not...not when you've been making NBA peanuts your whole career and this is your LAST opportunity to receive that payday. You get the contract FIRST, then work out the situation later.

 

[Dime Dropper]

No it's really not...not when you've been making NBA peanuts your whole career and this is your LAST opportunity to receive that payday. You get the contract FIRST, then work out the situation later.

Sure, if you say so. NBA peanuts are still enough to set you up for a luxury life. I don't think Ron is too worried about money. And I think it's ridiculous that you assume every player takes the contract first and the situation second. Not every player is the same. And as we know, Ron isn't normal.
Personally, I don't see why Ron would want to stay in Sacramento. He won't compete for a chamionship here.

 

[Glenn]

Ron Artest has come out very publicly recently and said he wants a championship. I think at the end of the day the team he chooses will be the one that he believes offers him the best opportunity to reach that goal.

If he tries to be pickey he may end up like Bonzi. He has got to know that he can't simply pick and chose where he wants to go because some people don't want him. Unless this board does not in the vaguest way represent the average basketball fan and general manager, there are a lot of people who don't want him because of his legal troubles and the potential for more.

I don't know what it is like to think in terms of the money these guys make, but his huge suspension cost him a lot of money and his present contract status (no Bird Rights) leaves him with the distinct possibility, if he isn't careful, of ending up with a relative pittance when his career is over. I am not telling anybody anything new but athletes have only a few years to make their life's income. Ron has already squandered away one year and I'll bet can't get extra money through commercials.

He only gets one shot at making money and half his career is over.

He may be flakey but he doesn't strike me as stupid.

"Ron isn't normal." What does that mean in relationship to his financial security, dime stopper?

 

[VF21]

Sure, if you say so. NBA peanuts are still enough to set you up for a luxury life. I don't think Ron is too worried about money. And I think it's ridiculous that you assume every player takes the contract first and the situation second. Not every player is the same. And as we know, Ron isn't normal.
Personally, I don't see why Ron would want to stay in Sacramento. He won't compete for a chamionship here.

The whole thing is anyone who tries to predict what Ron Artest might say or do is bound to go nuts themselves. Ron Artest is NOT predictable. So while one person's comments may seem "ridiculous" you just never know.

 

[Dime Dropper]

If he tries to be pickey he may end up like Bonzi. He has got to know that he can't simply pick and chose where he wants to go because some people don't want him. Unless this board does not in the vaguest way represent the average basketball fan and general manager, there are a lot of people who don't want him because of his legal troubles and the potential for more.

I don't know what it is like to think in terms of the money these guys make, but his huge suspension cost him a lot of money and his present contract status (no Bird Rights) leaves him with the distinct possibility, if he isn't careful, of ending up with a relative pittance when his career is over. I am not telling anybody anything new but athletes have only a few years to make their life's income. Ron has already squandered away one year and I'll bet can't get extra money through commercials.

He only gets one shot at making money and half his career is over.

He may be flakey but he doesn't strike me as stupid.

"Ron isn't normal." What does that mean in relationship to his financial security, dime stopper?

I made a similar point in one of my above posts. Nobody is going to offer him max (even if they could) simply because he's Ron Artest.

When I said he's not "normal", I basically meant what VF has just pointed out. He is unpredictable and could end up doing what ever he feels like doing at that point in time. I'm not disagreeing with you, Glenn, just saying that we can't dismiss Ron possibly taking the MLE.

The whole thing is anyone who tries to predict what Ron Artest might say or do is bound to go nuts themselves. Ron Artest is NOT predictable. So while one person's comments may seem "ridiculous" you just never know. Today 12:45 PM

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't trying to predict what Ron will do, I was saying we won't know (I can be quoted as saying " I'm not saying Ron will take the mid-level, merely saying it's a very real possibilty. Nothing can be dis-counted with Ron Artest." in one of my previous posts) since he is so touch-and-go. He is likely to do anything. All I've been saying is it's a possibility he will take the MLE. Never said it's likely.

 

[Smills91]

Sure, if you say so. NBA peanuts are still enough to set you up for a luxury life. I don't think Ron is too worried about money. And I think it's ridiculous that you assume every player takes the contract first and the situation second. Not every player is the same. And as we know, Ron isn't normal.
Personally, I don't see why Ron would want to stay in Sacramento. He won't compete for a chamionship here.

That's not the reality to these guys. To you and me, absolutely, but these guys have a 10-15 year window to get that payday they seek....it's there to establish them and their posterity for generations if they're smart, which honestly many of them aren't.