Artest for Howard

[kennadog]

I'm with bajadan. I have too much personal experience close to me to ever say that marijuana is harmless. I little now and then might be and I used to do it on occasion. Heavy use can be absolutely ruinous for the person and those around them.

Howard was an idiot for opening his mouth about it to the media. Being honest doesn't mean you have to pour forth everything that's in your mind. For one thing, maybe nobody wants to hear it. For another, you can really hurt other people, who don't deserve it. That kind of "honesty" is self-serving and selfish. Of course, when the media's involved, stupidity sells.

 

[VF21]

I think what some people are forgetting is that marijuana is illegal. Whether it should be or not isn't the point. When sports figures come out and admit to illegal activity and make general comments about their peers doing the same thing, it creates a myriad of problems for everyone else, including the team owners, fans, etc.

Howard should have kept his mouth shut, IMHO.

Now, back to the topic at hand? I've added a poll to this. Let's see how many of us would do the trade...

 

[Superman]

There's no particular age advantage here (which stuck me as odd too -- I would have guessed about 26), and Ron, at his best, is the bigger impact player.

I actually like Howard's game WAAAAY more than Ron's. Ron is a better defender, but Josh is no slouch; that was actually the trademark of his game for his first two or three seasons. I think the main thing Ron has over Josh is his post game, offensively and defensively. But I still like Howard's game more.

I'd pull the trigger just for the sake of lowering the "stark-raving mad" percentage of players on the team. Maybe we should have tried this before Ron became a free agent, though ...

 

[Vlade4GM]

I'd definitely do the trade. Just simply because Howard isn't crazy and he adds a better offensive game IMO.

 

[FakeInjury]

I'd definitely do the trade. Just simply because Howard isn't crazy and he adds a better offensive game IMO.

When was crazy and unpredictable not good in a basketball game. The game itself is crazy, and very syncopated. I wouldn't appreciate this trade because Howard is another rail thin type player who doesn't remind me of Barkley, Jordan, or any other great player above 6-5 and below 6-9. Artest, as crazy and unpredictable as he may be, is much closer to competitiveness level of a great player than is Howard. If we give up someone with Artest's kind of cut-throat attitude, one would expect to get back something greater if not equal to the contributions Artest bring to the table. I have no problem overstating his abilities. And for all his negative PR, hes a dam good locker-room presence, i.e. working out, defensive intensity. I wouldn't consider this trade for less than 2 million cash.

 

[Vlade4GM]

When was crazy and unpredictable not good in a basketball game. The game itself is crazy, and very syncopated. I wouldn't appreciate this trade because Howard is another rail thin type player who doesn't remind me of Barkley, Jordan, or any other great player above 6-5 and below 6-9. Artest, as crazy and unpredictable as he may be, is much closer to competitiveness level of a great player than is Howard. If we give up someone with Artest's kind of cut-throat attitude, one would expect to get back something greater if not equal to the contributions Artest bring to the table. I have no problem overstating his abilities. And for all his negative PR, hes a dam good locker-room presence, i.e. working out, defensive intensity. I wouldn't consider this trade for less than 2 million cash.

Sure, Artest believes he's a great player, but he doesn't back it up. Which leads to him very often to hogging the ball and freezing out the rest of the team.

 

[Packt]

Artest is a better player than Howard. Artest's post play is infinitely more valuable than anything Howard brings. He forces double teams in the post and can create/pass out of it. Defensively, Howard is not even in Artest's league. Howard is tough and won't back down but he's not a stopper or disrupter like Artest is.

The negative is Artest talks too much and the Palace brawl will forever be an issue.

The Mavs need a post player, and Artest would be one of the best options for them. Dirk at the 4/5 will always be a problem for them in that regard and limits what they can do with personnel. With the hiring of Carlisle, this trade becomes more risky than it needs to be. They have history of not working for whatever reasons, even though Carlisle did campaign hard for him the year he won DPY. Theres also the question of whether he fits in with Kidd.

 

[Bricklayer]

Artest is a better player than Howard. Artest's post play is infinitely more valuable than anything Howard brings. He forces double teams in the post and can create/pass out of it. Defensively, Howard is not even in Artest's league. Howard is tough and won't back down but he's not a stopper or disrupter like Artest is.

The negative is Artest talks too much and the Palace brawl will forever be an issue.

The Mavs need a post player, and Artest would be one of the best options for them. Dirk at the 4/5 will always be a problem for them in that regard and limits what they can do with personnel. With the hiring of Carlisle, this trade becomes more risky than it needs to be. They have history of not working for whatever reasons, even though Carlisle did campaign hard for him the year he won DPY. Theres also the question of whether he fits in with Kidd.

Did not even think of the Carlisle angle -- yeah, that probably precludes any possibility of Ron. Remember the whole reason (supposedly) that Ron just quit on Indiana and walked away was because he could not stand Carlisle trying to control him on offense.

 

[FakeInjury]

Sure, Artest believes he's a great player, but he doesn't back it up. Which leads to him very often to hogging the ball and freezing out the rest of the team.

Indeed. He does have room to mature. I appreciate that comment and believe you are 100% right. There is still the possibility, remote possibility, that he wises up. And imagine what a wise Ron Artest could be capable of. Some players just have it, and yes i think he does. I put my faith in his abilities/inabilities.

On the topic of Howard and his weird game. He was out-played his rookie year by Marquis Daniels. Then he wised up, and started playing with the passion one needs to be successful in basketball. But, he never developed a go-2 move, that he could call his own. A signature move, he still lacks. He's a marquee players, for sure. But, that only means he fits a level talent and salary. I would compare him to Tayshaun Prince, but somehow that comparison is lacking. Speaking of Prince....is he available? Hes not better than Artest but he sure is better than Howard. Howard should win the "Honesty is the Best Policy" NBA Award

 

[VF21]

REMINDER: Please keep your posts about the topic at hand. We're not going to allow this to dissolve into a discussion about what player you may or may not have seen smoke pot; we're not going to allow this to become a debate about whether or not marijuana should be legalized.

Thanks for understanding. Future posts that violate either of the two restrictions I've noted will be deleted.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Indeed. He does have room to mature. I appreciate that comment and believe you are 100% right. There is still the possibility, remote possibility, that he wises up. And imagine what a wise Ron Artest could be capable of. Some players just have it, and yes i think he does. I put my faith in his abilities/inabilities.

On the topic of Howard and his weird game. He was out-played his rookie year by Marquis Daniels. Then he wised up, and started playing with the passion one needs to be successful in basketball. But, he never developed a go-2 move, that he could call his own. A signature move, he still lacks. He's a marquee players, for sure. But, that only means he fits a level talent and salary. I would compare him to Tayshaun Prince, but somehow that comparison is lacking. Speaking of Prince....is he available? Hes not better than Artest but he sure is better than Howard. Howard should win the "Honesty is the Best Policy" NBA Award

I don't believe players drastically change their attitudes/games at 28, at least not on any kind of normal basis. Artest is who he is, this is the way he's always played and I see no reason to expect a change.

Who cares if Howard isn't a go to guy offensively? I'd take a very good complimentary guy offensively and build a good core of complimentary players and maybe we'll get lucky picking up a go to guy in the draft or with cap space. Even if we don't plan on Howard sticking around, he has better trade value and much more teams would be interested in him than with Artest. Artest may have the ability to be a go to scorer at times, but he's just plain not good enough to build a team around offensively. Having Artest as your go to scorer means you're a fringe playoff team.

 

[Superman]

I don't believe players drastically change their attitudes/games at 28, at least not on any kind of normal basis. Artest is who he is, this is the way he's always played and I see no reason to expect a change.

Who cares if Howard isn't a go to guy offensively? I'd take a very good complimentary guy offensively and build a good core of complimentary players and maybe we'll get lucky picking up a go to guy in the draft or with cap space. Even if we don't plan on Howard sticking around, he has better trade value and much more teams would be interested in him than with Artest. Artest may have the ability to be a go to scorer at times, but he's just plain not good enough to build a team around offensively. Having Artest as your go to scorer means you're a fringe playoff team.

I'd rather have a good complimentary guy than a black hole who thinks he's MVP material, but clearly isn't.

 

[Entity]

I'd rather have a good complimentary guy than a black hole who thinks he's MVP material, but clearly isn't.

Yeah but a complimentary guy is worthless if we have nobody for him to be complimentary to. (did that make sense?)

Ron is as close to a superstar as we got mainly because he brings it on both ends of the floor. He is not going to give you 30pts and 6stls while shutting down his man EVERY night but he can. I'd rather Ron be the complimentary guy to a superstar. If you trade him for Howard he isn't much better than our other 3 wing men and right now Ron is.

 

[Superman]

Yeah but a complimentary guy is worthless if we have nobody for him to be complimentary to. (did that make sense?)

Ron is as close to a superstar as we got mainly because he brings it on both ends of the floor. He is not going to give you 30pts and 6stls while shutting down his man EVERY night but he can. I'd rather Ron be the complimentary guy to a superstar. If you trade him for Howard he isn't much better than our other 3 wing men and right now Ron is.

I disagree that Josh Howard isn't much better than our other three wing men. The only player you'll get half of an agreement on is Martin; other than that, he's >>> Salmons, Cisco, and anyone else other than Ron. Pardon my hyperbole.

The problem with Ron is that he is NOT a superstar, but he wants to be and thinks he is. He's not trying to complement anyone; he wants to be complemented. And as such, even though he can't put up 30 a night and still be the best defender on the team (which he would be no matter where he played), he's not going to go to the locker room having not tried his damnedest. And that causes his teammates' game to suffer tremendously.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Ron's game, because he does bring positives to the table, even offensively, that most guys don't. But I don't want to keep a guy who is NOT a superstar simply because he's "as close to a superstar as we have" on the roster, especially when that guy doesn't realize that he's not a superstar. It hurts the play of the other guys on the floor, and that's especially disconcerting when you have other guys who can handle the scoring most nights (Martin, Beno, Cisco, Salmons, Miller, Hawes are all capable of rounding out a pretty good scoring lineup).

 

[Entity]

I agree with most of that. My biggest point is it isn't an upgrade at all trading for Howard. We either need to get a superstar with him or for him. I know you can't get one for him alone so him + whomever it takes. Howard albeit better than our swingmen he wouldn't make any difference in fact we could be worse with him instead of Ron.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Yeah but a complimentary guy is worthless if we have nobody for him to be complimentary to. (did that make sense?)

Ron is as close to a superstar as we got mainly because he brings it on both ends of the floor. He is not going to give you 30pts and 6stls while shutting down his man EVERY night but he can. I'd rather Ron be the complimentary guy to a superstar. If you trade him for Howard he isn't much better than our other 3 wing men and right now Ron is.

We need a go to franchise type player regardless, so I'd rather it be with the better complimentary player in Howard than Artest.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I agree with most of that. My biggest point is it isn't an upgrade at all trading for Howard. We either need to get a superstar with him or for him. I know you can't get one for him alone so him + whomever it takes. Howard albeit better than our swingmen he wouldn't make any difference in fact we could be worse with him instead of Ron.

For the moment yea, but we're not building for the now, we're building for the future. Obviously Howard isn't much younger than Artest, but he doesn't tick and he will compliment a superstar better than Artest would. We're going to need a star type player eventually if we're ever going to contend.

 

[Superman]

I agree with most of that. My biggest point is it isn't an upgrade at all trading for Howard. We either need to get a superstar with him or for him. I know you can't get one for him alone so him + whomever it takes. Howard albeit better than our swingmen he wouldn't make any difference in fact we could be worse with him instead of Ron.

The best case scenario would be to trade Ron for a big man who can contribute on defense and grab some rebounds, and then we can get Mikki Moore out of the rotation.

The Kleiza deal would have been satisfactory, especially after seeing him contribute offensively in the playoffs, but he's not a defensive guy, so he doesn't bring anything that any of our other swingmen lack. At least Howard is an above average defender. But you're right, it doesn't help the glut at the swing positions at all.

But that's the problem with Ron. We can't really get equal value for him because of his baggage and his contract, and if we have to sign and trade this summer, then it's even worse, and if we don't have a deal in place, we should just let him walk.

 

[NoBonus]

I look at Howard's situation and think he may end up in part of a trade that lands Carmello in Dallas.

 

[coolhandluke]

Well, this discussion has turned up in Sam Amick's blog and new Mavs coach Rick Carlisle has good words to say about Ron Artest.

On whether he'd coach Ron Artest again
"This guy is one of the real difference-makers that we have in this league. He's had one all-star year, that's when he played for me. I've had a chance to reconnect with Ronnie over the last couple of years. I love him and I love his family, so yeah. This guy was one of the most physical, intimidating players that I've ever seen at the small forward position. He'd be a player that any team would want to have."

 

[CruzDude]

The Kings are rebuilding. I think RonRon stays and may even get re-upped if (a big if), he buys into the team thing on offense. We will see Kevin take on more a leader role this year on the court. He has to in order for the Kings to generate double teams on him as well as RonRon so as to open up the defense against them.

Howard seems a wash, a great player, but we may lose more in RonRon than we gain in Howard. That ends this thread for me. I need to concentrate on draft rumors and conspiracy theories on the coming draft!!

 

[Smills91]

There's a reason Dallas would be willing to trade J-Ho for Ron - RON IS BETTER.

 

[atxrocker]

And that said, you still do it for the sake of stability. Howard won't win you games, but he'll win his matchup more nights than not and will always have serious value to other teams if you do decide to move him. He's a much more reasonable piece to use in trade than our collection of over the hill or over the loon unmoveables.

I am not a huge advocate of the move and can't stand "J.Ho" but I would agree with this.

 

[Superman]

There's a reason Dallas would be willing to trade J-Ho for Ron - RON IS BETTER.

Ron is better than a lot of people. He's better than Peja, but we still got him from the Pacers, didn't we? There's a reason for that...

 

[AleksandarN]

The only way i would trade for Howard is if they take KT off our hands.

 

[shoedork]

The only way i would trade for Howard is if they take KT off our hands.

i'm with you we need thomas out. and the whole deal with howard smoking ... IT'S WEED PEOPLE. JUST WEED! but in the end i wouldn't trade Artest for Howard.

And i love the votes, it's 50/50!

 

[BMiller52]

Ron is better than a lot of people. He's better than Peja, but we still got him from the Pacers, didn't we? There's a reason for that...

Yeah and there's a similar reason the Mavs want to get rid of Howard.

 

[Bricklayer]

Yeah and there's a similar reason the Mavs want to get rid of Howard.

No there's not. Not even remotely. The Mavs are WILLING to move Howard (maybe) because they need a way to get an extra spark. Its about basketball. Ron has been firesaled repeatedly because his basketball is not worth the rest of it, and his distraction outweighs his talent.

 

[Smills91]

Ron is better than a lot of people. He's better than Peja, but we still got him from the Pacers, didn't we? There's a reason for that...

Because he demanded a trade and management compounded the situation by stonewalling him? Yeah, and Peja's no slouch, he was once an MVP candidate. I'd say Peja overall has more talent than Howard.

 

[Bricklayer]

Because he demanded a trade and management compounded the situation by stonewalling him? Yeah, and Peja's no slouch, he was once an MVP candidate. I'd say Peja overall has more talent than Howard.

Oh good lord. Peja does exactly one thing better than Howard. One.

And trying to blame the situation in Indiana on anyone but Ron is just pathetic. That takes revisionist history to new depths.