[LAL/HOU] - Western Conference, Round 2

[Big Cuz 15]

after watching this game, there are a few things that need to be corrected. spacing & offense going through yao. it's clear that help defense comes when he gets the ball. i really don't know what yao can do when they put pau at the high post. pau takes him off the dribble and makes things happen.

 

[steelevt]

Correcting between games makes a considerable difference -- you accumulate flagrant points in the playoffs, 1 for a F1, 2 for an F2. When you reach 4 points, you are automatically suspended. right now ron has 2 points. By gametime next game he should have 1 or maybe even none. Big difference.

And no, the Rockets weren't coming back in this one.

it doesnt matter how many points he accumulates if his team is out of the playoffs. fixing it during a game is more important than after the fact when the game has already been decided that was my point. plus you dont know if he will ever get more flagrant fouls, just like you dont "know" the rockets werent coming back, it was just very, very unlikely. just like tmac scoring 13 points in 35 seconds, or reggie miller scoring 8 points in 11 seconds, not impossible but highly improbable.

 

[tradepeja]

''


Not sure if I'm being leveled or not but that's at best shoulder level.

Wow, great angle there. Haven't seen that one yet. This league is a joke.

 

[Gargamel]

It doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it ok to punish someone for something they didn't do. If past history is to be taken into consideration, kobe has had a long history of dirty play. But the league covered for him once again. kobe led the league in technical fouls just 1 season ago. I don't see him getting the Rasheed treatment.

I didn't say it did make it right. That's life. He's damaged his own rep and put a black eye on the sport. You think they're going to trust him after that?

Kobe's offenses aren't on par with the Palace Brawl. Different situation.

PS: Lowry hit Gasol at the same time Artest did (while in the air). That wasn't a flop as you characterized.

Yeah by the rules of the league if ANYONE THROWS AN ELBOW ABOVE THE HEAD HE'S SUSPENDED FOR 1 GAME. But of course Kobe gets the benefit of the doubt, even though he had 4 flagrants during the regular season and has been known to dirty stuff.

He didn't get suspended because, as bigbadred00 stated above, shoulder level at best. Other people, I think, want very hard to convince themselves that Artest's throat/chin is down near right pectoral (he really IS freak of nature).

 

[Gargamel]

I did not watch the game. I heard from someone who did, however, that Yao injured his ankle and yet continued to play long after the game was in essence lost. WHY???

I think Adelman rode him for offensive rebounding in the absence of a tall backup C against Odom/Gasol. (They were down by 9-12 & doing the clock stop foul routine about 5-6 times until they finally gave up at the 20 sec mark, hoping for a miracle, trying to get multiple shots in each possession.)

I don't know about "long after". He didn't start hobbling until the final 6 minutes or less, iirc.

 

[bigbadred00]

I didn't say it did make it right. That's life. He's damaged his own rep and put a black eye on the sport. You think they're going to trust him after that?

Kobe's offenses aren't on par with the Palace Brawl. Different situation.

PS: Lowry hit Gasol at the same time Artest did (while in the air). That wasn't a flop as you characterized.



He didn't get suspended because, as bigbadred00 stated above, shoulder level at best. Other people, I think, want very hard to convince themselves that Artest's throat/chin is down near right pectoral (he really IS freak of nature).

Hey Gargamel Shoulder level at best = automatic suspension, that isn't a good thing. The league let him get away with one.

 

[BMiller52]

Mary Jane Gasol when up for a lay up and Ron fouled him hard but clearly made the play on the ball. pau falls to the ground and the refs call flagrant and ejected Ron for the 2nd time in 2 games. All commentators and anyone that sees the replay said it wasn't even a flagrant 1.

The refs had a chance to review the play and kept it as flagrant 2. Clearly a witchhunt on Ron ROn.

Thanks, I saw it on ESPN too now though and it was a pretty ridiculous call. It was a play on the ball. But you know the league has their favorites, Kobe's at the top and Ron's at the bottom. Stern is the worst commish in sports.

 

[uolj]

Hey Gargamel Shoulder level at best = automatic suspension, that isn't a good thing. The league let him get away with one.

See: http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31727

Above the shoulder is a suspension, at or below is not.


As to last night's flagrant 2, Artest said the refs told him that it was the end of the game so they kept it a flagrant 2 to avoid any further nastiness. I think that's stupid, but Artest seemed ok with it based on his quote. I do hope they remove it completely on second look (unless there is another angle I haven't seen) because it sure didn't look like anything other than a foul with the off arm.

And as to the game... Artest and Yao weren't great on offense, but it was the Rockets' defense (or the Lakers' offense) that was the story of the game. Over 50% on threes and 33 free throw attempts --> Lakers win. Two games in a row the Lakers have come out hot. If Houston can play good defense in the first quarter Sunday then they'll have a much better shot of tying the series.

 

[vikinginferno]

This is pretty much the way I see the series: If Kobe starts out early making a lot of shots, it filters down to his whole team and the game is pretty much over. If Kobe either doesn't take many shots or he is missing most of them, then the Rockets have a good chance.

 

[Bricklayer]

it doesnt matter how many points he accumulates if his team is out of the playoffs. fixing it during a game is more important than after the fact when the game has already been decided that was my point. plus you dont know if he will ever get more flagrant fouls, just like you dont "know" the rockets werent coming back, it was just very, very unlikely. just like tmac scoring 13 points in 35 seconds, or reggie miller scoring 8 points in 11 seconds, not impossible but highly improbable.

The same call would probably not have been made if it were the 3rd quarter -- it would have been dropped to an F1 and play goes on. Now I do no think that sort of thing should even be an F1, but that's the wussification factor the whole flagrant foul system has introduced and is a general problem, not one specific to this play.

And it makes a BIG difference whether Ron, or any player, is sitting on 1 or 2 points going forward. Especially in a series this rough if you are sitting on 2 you would really have to watch yourself to avoid anything that would get you automatically suspended. But with 1 you can play.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

it doesnt matter how many points he accumulates if his team is out of the playoffs. fixing it during a game is more important than after the fact when the game has already been decided that was my point. plus you dont know if he will ever get more flagrant fouls, just like you dont "know" the rockets werent coming back, it was just very, very unlikely. just like tmac scoring 13 points in 35 seconds, or reggie miller scoring 8 points in 11 seconds, not impossible but highly improbable.

Agreed. I mean .... maybe gm 3 wouldn't have matter in the outcome of the game. But game 2 was very winnable for the Rockets. There was plenty of time left and RonRon was playing great and his shot was falling. Not only kobe did not get an ejection or at least flagrant out of it, the Rockets lost their best player that night. That would've been points on the board and if kobe at the very least got called for flagrant 1. But wrong calls and blown calls led to the Rockets having no chance to win game 2 when they very well could have. If they didn't blown the elbow call, Artest would've been in the game.

 

[Gargamel]

If they didn't blown the elbow call, Artest would've been in the game.

Mmmm... If Artest didn't run across the court to get right into Kobe's face, he wouldn't have gotten the 1st T. If he didn't then immediately do a throat slash gesture right in the refs' view, he wouldn't have gotten the 2nd T.

Do you know what's amazing about Artest? He can get unhinged that bad in TODAY'S soft game. How long do you think he would've lasted in a series in the 80s? Also, if he's this easy to prey on, of what real use is he to a team that's seriously trying to win a title? Not much if you can never put your full faith in him not to blow up. Better players have ignored worse offenses in the long history of the league.

 

[Gargamel]

Now I do no think that sort of thing should even be an F1, but that's the wussification factor the whole flagrant foul system has introduced and is a general problem, not one specific to this play.

Ironically, Ron is the victim of the league's wussification that he helped intensify more than any other single player.

Or mabye it's not ironic.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Mmmm... If Artest didn't run across the court to get right into Kobe's face, he wouldn't have gotten the 1st T. If he didn't then immediately do a throat slash gesture right in the refs' view, he wouldn't have gotten the 2nd T.

Do you know what's amazing about Artest? He can get unhinged that bad in TODAY'S soft game. How long do you think he would've lasted in a series in the 80s? Also, if he's this easy to prey on, of what real use is he to a team that's seriously trying to win a title? Not much if you can never put your full faith in him not to blow up. Better players have ignored worse offenses in the long history of the league.

You like to ignore the fact that it should've never got to the point where Ron had to confront kobe. Its like saying if someone breaks into a house and gets shot and killed by the home owner, its all the home owner's fault for standing up for himself.

I think Ron would've did just fine in the 80s because if the game was generally more physical, he would fit right in. Even before the 80s, a player actually punched out a fan and got to stay and play in the game.
On the flip side, I don't think kobe would survive or be very good in the 80s game. He is naturally not physical and relies on dirty plays and the refs calling breathing fouls for him. He wouldn't get that when the game was more physical.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Kobe's offenses aren't on par with the Palace Brawl. Different situation.

You mentioned the Rasheed Wallace example yourself. kobe led the entire league in technical foul calls just last yr and was among the top 10 again this yr. He was also in the top 3 for 2 yrs in a row prior to last.

Face it, kobe gets preferential treatment. Is it so bad for a laker fan to admit it?

He didn't get suspended because, as bigbadred00 stated above, shoulder level at best. Other people, I think, want very hard to convince themselves that Artest's throat/chin is down near right pectoral (he really IS freak of nature).

There were multiple views that you can watch this replay. The one laker fans like to go back is from an angle taken upwards by a floor cameraman. Not sure what is there to contest about when every non laker fan and most of the media are saying that kobe did in fact hit Ron's throat.

 

[Gargamel]

You mentioned the Rasheed Wallace example yourself. kobe led the entire league in technical foul calls just last yr and was among the top 10 again this yr. He was also in the top 3 for 2 yrs in a row prior to last.

Face it, kobe gets preferential treatment. Is it so bad for a laker fan to admit it?

This has nothing to do w/ my quote that elbows aren't the same thing as running up into the stands to attack a fan who threw a water bottle at you while you were lying on the scorer's table after a scuffle you participated in, thus causing a severe incident where fans were throwing chairs onto people, fans were getting punched by players, security couldn't control the situation, etc. Apples to planets.

There were multiple views that you can watch this replay. The one laker fans like to go back is from an angle taken upwards by a floor cameraman. Not sure what is there to contest about when every non laker fan and most of the media are saying that kobe did in fact hit Ron's throat.

I contest the eyesight of those who think Ron's throat is down by his chest. I understand why every non Laker fan and most of the media wants to portray it otherwise. I don't begrudge you of your right to dislike Kobe, Pete.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

There were multiple views that you can watch this replay. The one laker fans like to go back is from an angle taken upwards by a floor cameraman. Not sure what is there to contest about when every non laker fan and most of the media are saying that kobe did in fact hit Ron's throat.

There's no way Kobe should have been suspended. Artest and he were playing physical and there's no reason to believe his elbow was directly intended for Artest's neck. I am a very physical basketball player myself and have accidentally hit and been hit by my fair share of elbows in the post. Kobe was matching Ron's aggression and the elbow was an unfortunate accident. The only play in the entire series that I think even deserved a flagrant was Fischers. Even Ron's flagrant in Game 3 was just a good hard foul to me. He got a lot of ball and got Gasol, but was only tagged with a flagaranet because Battier hooked Gasol around the waist and Gasol fell hard.

 

[vikinginferno]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4154496

Wow, The foul by Ron Artest is the same punishment as the elbow to the neck of Ron by Kobe Bryant? Totally fair...

 

[SacKings7]

Yao Ming out for the playoffs...

The Rockets had a good run

 

[CalBears1]

Yao Ming out for the playoffs...

The Rockets had a good run

I guess that's the answer to everyone that was cutting him down for his performance yesterday. I guess that playing with a fracture can do that to you.

 

[kingsnation]

Yeah here's the link:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4154628

This sucks.

 

[kingsnation]

Lakers 4-1 looks like the result. Unless Adelman can get his crew to play very inspired play, which I think is a giant possibility.

I think they win 1 in Houston. So, 4-2 in my book - hope I am wrong.

 

[coolhandluke]

No Yao! The series is over for the Rockets. Injuries to key players has kept them shorthanded for the playoffs over the years. Bad luck continues for Adelman.

 

[Variant]

Too bad... the series had potential.

Nuggets/Lakers looks like it might be entertaining to watch though eh?

 

[Gargamel]

Too bad... the series had potential.

Nuggets/Lakers looks like it might be entertaining to watch though eh?

On the one hand, LA won't have any rust to shake off considering these series aren't going 7.

On the other, Billups in for Iverson means LA can't beat them 27 times in a row simply by slowing the pace to a crawl as before. I guess that's why teams that are serious about winning try to find character vets.

No Yao! The series is over for the Rockets.

And no Mutombo. Uh oh.

Tough for Yao, one of the few squeaky clean guys in the league in all aspects.

 

[hoopsfan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4154496

Wow, The foul by Ron Artest is the same punishment as the elbow to the neck of Ron by Kobe Bryant? Totally fair...

I don't know who can still think that after video evidence to the contrary...but I guess people see what they want to see. Go for it.

To bad about about Yao. I like seeing him play.

 

[vikinginferno]

I don't know who can still think that after video evidence to the contrary...but I guess people see what they want to see. Go for it.

To bad about about Yao. I like seeing him play.

Well just show me one video where it has anywhere close to clear evidence it wasn't to the neck and I will stop calling it that.

 

[VF21]

I don't know who can still think that after video evidence to the contrary...but I guess people see what they want to see. Go for it.

Sorry to disagree with you, hoopsie, but there are videos with a lot of different angles/views, and some of them look more damning than others.

To me, the foul should have been called a flagrant on the court. I am beyond sick and tired of Kobe's posturing and pretenses of innocence after he's done something to provoke someone else. Ron Artest was not the aggressor in this matter. Kobe was... and he did it with the sure and certain belief that he could get Artest angry enough to lose it.

I don't like to see that kind of action from a champion-caliber player any more than I like seeing it from a scrub. The fact Kobe has gotten away with it his whole career is just more proof that there is a definite favoritism involved here.

I like you and I respect you as a basketball fan, but I don't think you - as a Laker/Kobe fan - can be any more impartial about this than I - an avowed Laker/Kobe hater - can be.

 

[Bricklayer]

Poor Rick, just cannot catch a break.

 

[vikinginferno]

Even if Kobe's elbow didn't touch Artest's throat (which it definitely looked like it at least partly touched) then it is still much worse than what Artest did and should come with worse punishment. Phil Jackson said that the flagrants have to be consistent and I totally agree.