[LAL/HOU] - Western Conference, Round 2
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it doesnt matter how many points he accumulates if his team is out of the playoffs. fixing it during a game is more important than after the fact when the game has already been decided that was my point. plus you dont know if he will ever get more flagrant fouls, just like you dont "know" the rockets werent coming back, it was just very, very unlikely. just like tmac scoring 13 points in 35 seconds, or reggie miller scoring 8 points in 11 seconds, not impossible but highly improbable.
I didn't say it did make it right. That's life. He's damaged his own rep and put a black eye on the sport. You think they're going to trust him after that?
Kobe's offenses aren't on par with the Palace Brawl. Different situation.
PS: Lowry hit Gasol at the same time Artest did (while in the air). That wasn't a flop as you characterized.
He didn't get suspended because, as bigbadred00 stated above, shoulder level at best. Other people, I think, want very hard to convince themselves that Artest's throat/chin is down near right pectoral (he really IS freak of nature).
Kobe's offenses aren't on par with the Palace Brawl. Different situation.
PS: Lowry hit Gasol at the same time Artest did (while in the air). That wasn't a flop as you characterized.
He didn't get suspended because, as bigbadred00 stated above, shoulder level at best. Other people, I think, want very hard to convince themselves that Artest's throat/chin is down near right pectoral (he really IS freak of nature).
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I think Adelman rode him for offensive rebounding in the absence of a tall backup C against Odom/Gasol. (They were down by 9-12 & doing the clock stop foul routine about 5-6 times until they finally gave up at the 20 sec mark, hoping for a miracle, trying to get multiple shots in each possession.)
I don't know about "long after". He didn't start hobbling until the final 6 minutes or less, iirc.
I don't know about "long after". He didn't start hobbling until the final 6 minutes or less, iirc.
See: http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31727
Above the shoulder is a suspension, at or below is not.
As to last night's flagrant 2, Artest said the refs told him that it was the end of the game so they kept it a flagrant 2 to avoid any further nastiness. I think that's stupid, but Artest seemed ok with it based on his quote. I do hope they remove it completely on second look (unless there is another angle I haven't seen) because it sure didn't look like anything other than a foul with the off arm.
And as to the game... Artest and Yao weren't great on offense, but it was the Rockets' defense (or the Lakers' offense) that was the story of the game. Over 50% on threes and 33 free throw attempts --> Lakers win. Two games in a row the Lakers have come out hot. If Houston can play good defense in the first quarter Sunday then they'll have a much better shot of tying the series.
Above the shoulder is a suspension, at or below is not.
As to last night's flagrant 2, Artest said the refs told him that it was the end of the game so they kept it a flagrant 2 to avoid any further nastiness. I think that's stupid, but Artest seemed ok with it based on his quote. I do hope they remove it completely on second look (unless there is another angle I haven't seen) because it sure didn't look like anything other than a foul with the off arm.
And as to the game... Artest and Yao weren't great on offense, but it was the Rockets' defense (or the Lakers' offense) that was the story of the game. Over 50% on threes and 33 free throw attempts --> Lakers win. Two games in a row the Lakers have come out hot. If Houston can play good defense in the first quarter Sunday then they'll have a much better shot of tying the series.
The same call would probably not have been made if it were the 3rd quarter -- it would have been dropped to an F1 and play goes on. Now I do no think that sort of thing should even be an F1, but that's the wussification factor the whole flagrant foul system has introduced and is a general problem, not one specific to this play.
And it makes a BIG difference whether Ron, or any player, is sitting on 1 or 2 points going forward. Especially in a series this rough if you are sitting on 2 you would really have to watch yourself to avoid anything that would get you automatically suspended. But with 1 you can play.
Agreed. I mean .... maybe gm 3 wouldn't have matter in the outcome of the game. But game 2 was very winnable for the Rockets. There was plenty of time left and RonRon was playing great and his shot was falling. Not only kobe did not get an ejection or at least flagrant out of it, the Rockets lost their best player that night. That would've been points on the board and if kobe at the very least got called for flagrant 1. But wrong calls and blown calls led to the Rockets having no chance to win game 2 when they very well could have. If they didn't blown the elbow call, Artest would've been in the game.
Mmmm... If Artest didn't run across the court to get right into Kobe's face, he wouldn't have gotten the 1st T. If he didn't then immediately do a throat slash gesture right in the refs' view, he wouldn't have gotten the 2nd T.
Do you know what's amazing about Artest? He can get unhinged that bad in TODAY'S soft game. How long do you think he would've lasted in a series in the 80s? Also, if he's this easy to prey on, of what real use is he to a team that's seriously trying to win a title? Not much if you can never put your full faith in him not to blow up. Better players have ignored worse offenses in the long history of the league.
Do you know what's amazing about Artest? He can get unhinged that bad in TODAY'S soft game. How long do you think he would've lasted in a series in the 80s? Also, if he's this easy to prey on, of what real use is he to a team that's seriously trying to win a title? Not much if you can never put your full faith in him not to blow up. Better players have ignored worse offenses in the long history of the league.
You like to ignore the fact that it should've never got to the point where Ron had to confront kobe. Its like saying if someone breaks into a house and gets shot and killed by the home owner, its all the home owner's fault for standing up for himself.
I think Ron would've did just fine in the 80s because if the game was generally more physical, he would fit right in. Even before the 80s, a player actually punched out a fan and got to stay and play in the game.
On the flip side, I don't think kobe would survive or be very good in the 80s game. He is naturally not physical and relies on dirty plays and the refs calling breathing fouls for him. He wouldn't get that when the game was more physical.
You mentioned the Rasheed Wallace example yourself. kobe led the entire league in technical foul calls just last yr and was among the top 10 again this yr. He was also in the top 3 for 2 yrs in a row prior to last.
Face it, kobe gets preferential treatment. Is it so bad for a laker fan to admit it?
There were multiple views that you can watch this replay. The one laker fans like to go back is from an angle taken upwards by a floor cameraman. Not sure what is there to contest about when every non laker fan and most of the media are saying that kobe did in fact hit Ron's throat.
Face it, kobe gets preferential treatment. Is it so bad for a laker fan to admit it?
There were multiple views that you can watch this replay. The one laker fans like to go back is from an angle taken upwards by a floor cameraman. Not sure what is there to contest about when every non laker fan and most of the media are saying that kobe did in fact hit Ron's throat.
This has nothing to do w/ my quote that elbows aren't the same thing as running up into the stands to attack a fan who threw a water bottle at you while you were lying on the scorer's table after a scuffle you participated in, thus causing a severe incident where fans were throwing chairs onto people, fans were getting punched by players, security couldn't control the situation, etc. Apples to planets.
I contest the eyesight of those who think Ron's throat is down by his chest. I understand why every non Laker fan and most of the media wants to portray it otherwise. I don't begrudge you of your right to dislike Kobe, Pete.
I contest the eyesight of those who think Ron's throat is down by his chest. I understand why every non Laker fan and most of the media wants to portray it otherwise. I don't begrudge you of your right to dislike Kobe, Pete.
There's no way Kobe should have been suspended. Artest and he were playing physical and there's no reason to believe his elbow was directly intended for Artest's neck. I am a very physical basketball player myself and have accidentally hit and been hit by my fair share of elbows in the post. Kobe was matching Ron's aggression and the elbow was an unfortunate accident. The only play in the entire series that I think even deserved a flagrant was Fischers. Even Ron's flagrant in Game 3 was just a good hard foul to me. He got a lot of ball and got Gasol, but was only tagged with a flagaranet because Battier hooked Gasol around the waist and Gasol fell hard.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4154496
Wow, The foul by Ron Artest is the same punishment as the elbow to the neck of Ron by Kobe Bryant? Totally fair...
Wow, The foul by Ron Artest is the same punishment as the elbow to the neck of Ron by Kobe Bryant? Totally fair...
On the one hand, LA won't have any rust to shake off considering these series aren't going 7.
On the other, Billups in for Iverson means LA can't beat them 27 times in a row simply by slowing the pace to a crawl as before. I guess that's why teams that are serious about winning try to find character vets.
And no Mutombo. Uh oh.
Tough for Yao, one of the few squeaky clean guys in the league in all aspects.
On the other, Billups in for Iverson means LA can't beat them 27 times in a row simply by slowing the pace to a crawl as before. I guess that's why teams that are serious about winning try to find character vets.
And no Mutombo. Uh oh.
Tough for Yao, one of the few squeaky clean guys in the league in all aspects.
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http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4154496
Wow, The foul by Ron Artest is the same punishment as the elbow to the neck of Ron by Kobe Bryant? Totally fair...
Wow, The foul by Ron Artest is the same punishment as the elbow to the neck of Ron by Kobe Bryant? Totally fair...
To bad about about Yao. I like seeing him play.
I don't know who can still think that after video evidence to the contrary...but I guess people see what they want to see. Go for it.
To bad about about Yao. I like seeing him play.
To bad about about Yao. I like seeing him play.
I don't know who can still think that after video evidence to the contrary...but I guess people see what they want to see. Go for it.
To me, the foul should have been called a flagrant on the court. I am beyond sick and tired of Kobe's posturing and pretenses of innocence after he's done something to provoke someone else. Ron Artest was not the aggressor in this matter. Kobe was... and he did it with the sure and certain belief that he could get Artest angry enough to lose it.
I don't like to see that kind of action from a champion-caliber player any more than I like seeing it from a scrub. The fact Kobe has gotten away with it his whole career is just more proof that there is a definite favoritism involved here.
I like you and I respect you as a basketball fan, but I don't think you - as a Laker/Kobe fan - can be any more impartial about this than I - an avowed Laker/Kobe hater - can be.
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