[Game] Kings vs. Clippers, 12/22/2021 7pm Pacific 10pm Eastern

Re: Chet Holmgren / Seen him in several games and what seen so far very intriguing. A consensus five-star recruit and number-one player in the 2021 class, very mobile at 7'0", 190 lbs. Obviously needs to put on a lot of weight, live in the weight room, get more consistent on the court for Gonzaga. In one dazzling play rebounded in a crowd of defenders blowing by them with long stride going coast-to-coast including behind the back dribble to escape last defender for flying dunk. Luka Doncic-like! He strikes me as the kind of talent that will be called slow (actually fast for his size), too soft (improving), raw project (no way) or one-dimensional (merely reliable shot blocker). But Holmgren shows much more as gets the experience at age 19. Can take defender into lane with good feet work, effective post stroke or short hook shot. Has good outside stroke as well. Can make the college 3. Likewise Zags All-American teammate Drew Timme (mentor) has all that in spades but he's a senior and Holmgren a freshman. Holmgren probably not an immediate NBA breakout and would be wise to stay for couple years in Spokane. But if comes out early will be top 5 draft pick for sure. You can't teach height and it is really hard to teach 7 footer (he's still growing apparently) to dribble behind his back evading defenders. Not needing to be Luka off the dribble but interesting comparisons - especially as both viewed with some negative talk when first going into NBA draft discussion.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Don’t be upset with me, be angry with yourself that you believed in a player that will never be anything more than what you see from him right now - good scorer but not consistently efficient, subpar defender, and does nothing to elevate this Kings team beyond irrelevant status.

Time to wake up, skippy - Vlade’s shared pipe dream is over.
The problem with this team isn't Fox! The problem, at least the immediate problem is a player named Buddy Hield. You can't have a player play 43 minutes and shoot 5 of 18 from the three, 5 of 22 overall, while playing horrible defense. Do that every night and it's almost impossible to win games. Three times in last nights game, Buddy dribbled the shot clock down to 2 seconds and then passed the ball the first time to Harkless who had to put up a shot with a hand in his face. The look of disgust on Harkless face said it all. The second time to Haliburton, who had just enough time to throw up a wild 3 pointer. And the last time to Triston Thompson, who actually made his first 3 pointer of the year. Buddy got an undeserved assist out of that one.

The problem is that this kind of performance by Buddy is more the norm than an aberration this season. Why Doug continued to play Hield that many minutes is beyond me. His statement in the press conference that he thinks every shot Buddy takes is going in might have been true a couple of years ago, but not this season. If Buddy was a good defender then maybe I could swallow that nonsense, but he's not!!!!! Bledsoe scored almost every time Buddy guarded him one on one. Some of the baskets were inexcusable. Twice with Buddy guarding Bledsoe once and Paul George the other he turned his head to ball watch and both of them backdoored Buddy for easy layups. Once on a fast break by the Clippers, and Bledsoe with the ball, Buddy who was back playing safety, simply got out of Bledsoe's way to let him score.

Maybe some of you are OK with that kind of performance by Buddy, but I'm not, and I've had it with him, and the Kings who keep giving him the ball. Enough is enough!!! Buddy has to go. Anyone who thinks this can be a winning team with Buddy on it, is smoking something. As for Fox, who said he was supposed to singlehandedly make us a champion. I never thought that. I'm happy with his play overall. Yeah, it's down a bit from last season, but still very respectable. I agree on defense. It's not that he's a bad defender, its that he's an inconsistent defender. My hope is that with Haliburton taking over a large chunk of the ball handling it would allow Fox more energy on the defensive side. That's yet to happen, but he's still very young and the two haven't really played together that long.

Yes this team has problems, but one of them isn't Fox or Haliburton. We have one real wing player on the team in Barnes. We bounce different players in and out of the lineup at the PF position. The roster isn't balanced. Lets correct some of those problems before we start trading our best players. That doesn't mean I wouldn't trade Fox for the right price. I mean I'll trade him straight up for Paul George right now. Don't think that's going to happen. Me personally, the only player I wouldn't trade is Haliburton. I said I thought he was the best player in his draft and I still believe that. And he is the leader the Kings are looking for. Just a matter of time!
 
The problem with this team isn't Fox! The problem, at least the immediate problem is a player named Buddy Hield. You can't have a player play 43 minutes and shoot 5 of 18 from the three, 5 of 22 overall, while playing horrible defense. Do that every night and it's almost impossible to win games. Three times in last nights game, Buddy dribbled the shot clock down to 2 seconds and then passed the ball the first time to Harkless who had to put up a shot with a hand in his face. The look of disgust on Harkless face said it all. The second time to Haliburton, who had just enough time to throw up a wild 3 pointer. And the last time to Triston Thompson, who actually made his first 3 pointer of the year. Buddy got an undeserved assist out of that one.

The problem is that this kind of performance by Buddy is more the norm than an aberration this season. Why Doug continued to play Hield that many minutes is beyond me. His statement in the press conference that he thinks every shot Buddy takes is going in might have been true a couple of years ago, but not this season. If Buddy was a good defender then maybe I could swallow that nonsense, but he's not!!!!! Bledsoe scored almost every time Buddy guarded him one on one. Some of the baskets were inexcusable. Twice with Buddy guarding Bledsoe once and Paul George the other he turned his head to ball watch and both of them backdoored Buddy for easy layups. Once on a fast break by the Clippers, and Bledsoe with the ball, Buddy who was back playing safety, simply got out of Bledsoe's way to let him score.

Maybe some of you are OK with that kind of performance by Buddy, but I'm not, and I've had it with him, and the Kings who keep giving him the ball. Enough is enough!!! Buddy has to go. Anyone who thinks this can be a winning team with Buddy on it, is smoking something. As for Fox, who said he was supposed to singlehandedly make us a champion. I never thought that. I'm happy with his play overall. Yeah, it's down a bit from last season, but still very respectable. I agree on defense. It's not that he's a bad defender, its that he's an inconsistent defender. My hope is that with Haliburton taking over a large chunk of the ball handling it would allow Fox more energy on the defensive side. That's yet to happen, but he's still very young and the two haven't really played together that long.

Yes this team has problems, but one of them isn't Fox or Haliburton. We have one real wing player on the team in Barnes. We bounce different players in and out of the lineup at the PF position. The roster isn't balanced. Lets correct some of those problems before we start trading our best players. That doesn't mean I wouldn't trade Fox for the right price. I mean I'll trade him straight up for Paul George right now. Don't think that's going to happen. Me personally, the only player I wouldn't trade is Haliburton. I said I thought he was the best player in his draft and I still believe that. And he is the leader the Kings are looking for. Just a matter of time!
My sentiments exactly. Thank you for this post.
 
Shot looked awful, but he set guys up like 6 straight possessions when he first came in. Could be worse as your deep bench guard. (Hi, Whoever Robinson)

I thought Mudiay looked decent in his first game. Ball handling looked good and his two assists were solid
yes - those two assists were off pick and rolls with tristan thompson.

here is a link to first quarter play by play:

https://www.espn.com/nba/playbyplay/_/gameId/401360299

starters holmes, barnes, metu, hield, haliburton

metu rebound (9:03)

harkless in for metu (6:58) (at this point, metu is 1-5 shooting)

so, metu did not play well paired with holmes

thompson enters at 6:12 (1st)

tt grabs defensive rebound (6:02)

tt assists on barnes layup (5:24)

tt scores on dunk - barnes assists (3:48)

mudiay enters game replacing barnes (3:22)

metu enters game replacing haliburton (3:22)

tt misses two point shot (2:42)

tt scores on p/r - mudiay assists (2:20)

(at this point, we are going "medium-small" with tt, metu and harkless up front)

tt score layup off p/r - mudiay assists (1:46)

(kings now trail 23-20, after digging early hole)

tt defensive rebound (0:43)

metu w/4 defensive rebounds in final 3:22 (paired with thompson)

quarter end kings down 25-20


SO, WHAT HAPPENED?


doug "genius" christie has finally found a good combination.

metu and tt dominating boards

mudiay and tt run pick and roll (twice) to perfection.


yet, metu and thompson sit to start the second quarter (why? - ok, tt played 6 min but metu only 3:22 w/4 rebounds after early 5 minute stint)

mudiay misses 12 foot shot (9:33)

at 8:48, mudiay fouls winslow and metu immediately replaces mudiay

tt in for holmes (5:48)

tt out for damion jones after committing two loose ball fouls (3:04)

metu: 3 more rebounds 1 assist


halftime score kings trail 49-38


SO, WHAT HAPPENED?

starters again for start of 3rd

metu - 1 off/1 def rebound in first 4 1/2 minutes (he is done rebounding ROG)

7:04 - kings TO trailing 63-48

tt enters for holmes - metu misses trey (6:48), dunks off p/r (5:50)

tt defensive rebound (4:43), then makes trey (3:19) scorer now clips 69-62

tt misses shot (2:49) gets own rebound (2:47), grabs defensive rebound (2:20)

1:51 metu out for barnes - during those 4+ minutes together (tt/metu), kings made up 10 points

last 1:51 - tt misses shot then gets technical - after 3, clips up 6



4th quarter - damion jones replaces tt to start quarter (WHY?)

jones not good - lead up to 11 when metu/tt sub in for jones/harkless (9:07)

metu dunk (9:01)

harkless back in for metu (5:24) (WHY?)

down 15 w/1:28 left, mudiay finally sees the floor again

kings lose

i gotta wonder

1) why jones to start 4th?

2) why harkless down the stretch?

3) tt/metu were on floor at end of 3rd - cut lead from 15 to 5 - why play holmes/harkless (and JONES???) at ALL in 4th?

4) mudiay was fine and showed an offensive rapport with tt - WHY did christie not play them together again?


this is the moment i mulled starting a "Fire Doug" thread.

maybe too early

maybe
 
Re: Chet Holmgren / Seen him in several games and what seen so far very intriguing. A consensus five-star recruit and number-one player in the 2021 class, very mobile at 7'0", 190 lbs. Obviously needs to put on a lot of weight, live in the weight room, get more consistent on the court for Gonzaga. In one dazzling play rebounded in a crowd of defenders blowing by them with long stride going coast-to-coast including behind the back dribble to escape last defender for flying dunk. Luka Doncic-like! He strikes me as the kind of talent that will be called slow (actually fast for his size), too soft (improving), raw project (no way) or one-dimensional (merely reliable shot blocker). But Holmgren shows much more as gets the experience at age 19. Can take defender into lane with good feet work, effective post stroke or short hook shot. Has good outside stroke as well. Can make the college 3. Likewise Zags All-American teammate Drew Timme (mentor) has all that in spades but he's a senior and Holmgren a freshman. Holmgren probably not an immediate NBA breakout and would be wise to stay for couple years in Spokane. But if comes out early will be top 5 draft pick for sure. You can't teach height and it is really hard to teach 7 footer (he's still growing apparently) to dribble behind his back evading defenders. Not needing to be Luka off the dribble but interesting comparisons - especially as both viewed with some negative talk when first going into NBA draft discussion.
He's got Pau potential. Easily worth the pick. He has to get stronger but the good sign with him is he doesn't shy away from contact and takes whatever battle there is head on. His skills will be much better used in the NBA where the game becomes more individual based.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
He's got Pau potential. Easily worth the pick. He has to get stronger but the good sign with him is he doesn't shy away from contact and takes whatever battle there is head on. His skills will be much better used in the NBA where the game becomes more individual based.
he‘s also in the awkward position of having to play more as a forward on Gonzaga because he’s playing next to Drew Timme, who is an exceptional college big man but also sort of stuck as a center defensively. Once he’s in the NBA, Chet should probably get better looks on both ends of the floor for sure.

He’ll have his struggles sure but anytime a big man can snatch the ball out of the air after blocking the shot on one end, direct the ensuing fast break like a point guard, and then nail the subsequent pull-up three, it’s hard to bet against him.
 
The problem with this team isn't Fox! The problem, at least the immediate problem is a player named Buddy Hield. You can't have a player play 43 minutes and shoot 5 of 18 from the three, 5 of 22 overall, while playing horrible defense. Do that every night and it's almost impossible to win games. ... The problem is that this kind of performance by Buddy is more the norm than an aberration this season. ...

Maybe some of you are OK with that kind of performance by Buddy, but I'm not, and I've had it with him, and the Kings who keep giving him the ball. Enough is enough!!! Buddy has to go. Anyone who thinks this can be a winning team with Buddy on it, is smoking something.
C'mon, Bajaden. Do you really think anyone's arguing with you here? I'm pretty sure that no Kings fan is "OK" with a 5-18/5-22/crappy-defense performance from Buddy. But "this kind of performance by Buddy is more the norm than an aberration this season"? No, at least with respect to his shooting that's just not remotely true. Right or wrong, DC stayed with him precisely because we have every reason NOT to expect such shooting ineptitude from Buddy. In a down year, the guy's shooting 37.2% from 3 and has a true shooting % - this year - equivalent to Bags' and higher than TT, Fox, Davis, Metu, and Mitchell. Last year's 39.1% from 3 is his full-season low in Sacramento.

Course, it wasn't just the brickfest that pained us all, it was the high-volume bricking. But good luck finding another game where he shot so poorly over so many attempts.

I want Buddy gone as much as the next guy, but, a) you're preaching to the choir on that, far as I can tell, and, b) last night was not at all "typical Buddy," certainly not in re the extreme awfulness. No need to exaggerate wildly to make a point hardly anyone, if anyone, disputes.
 
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C'mon, Bajaden. Do you really think anyone's arguing with you here? I'm pretty sure that no Kings fan is "OK" with a 5-18/5-22/crappy-defense performance from Buddy. But "this kind of performance by Buddy is more the norm than an aberration this season"? No, at least with respect to his shooting that's just not remotely true. Right or wrong, the very reason DC stayed with him is precisely that we have every reason NOT to expect such shooting ineptitude from Buddy. In a down year, the guy's shooting 37.2% from 3 and has a true shooting % - this year - equivalent to Bags' and higher than TT, Fox, Davis, Metu, and Mitchell. Last year's 39.1% from 3 is his full-season low in Sacramento.

Course, it wasn't just the brickfest that pained us all, it was the high-volume bricking. Good luck finding another game where he shot so poorly over so many attempts.

I want Buddy gone as much as the next guy, but, a) you're preaching to the choir on that, far as I can tell, and, b) last night was not at all "typical Buddy," certainly not in re the extreme awfulness. No need to exaggerate wildly to make a point hardly anyone, if anyone, disputes.
Yup. We have very little shooting and Doug stuck with Buddy thinking that he might get hot, like he had the previous two games. There was nobody else to go to as an outside threat
 
The problem with this team isn't Fox! The problem, at least the immediate problem is a player named Buddy Hield. You can't have a player play 43 minutes and shoot 5 of 18 from the three, 5 of 22 overall, while playing horrible defense. Do that every night and it's almost impossible to win games. Three times in last nights game, Buddy dribbled the shot clock down to 2 seconds and then passed the ball the first time to Harkless who had to put up a shot with a hand in his face. The look of disgust on Harkless face said it all. The second time to Haliburton, who had just enough time to throw up a wild 3 pointer. And the last time to Triston Thompson, who actually made his first 3 pointer of the year. Buddy got an undeserved assist out of that one.

The problem is that this kind of performance by Buddy is more the norm than an aberration this season. Why Doug continued to play Hield that many minutes is beyond me. His statement in the press conference that he thinks every shot Buddy takes is going in might have been true a couple of years ago, but not this season. If Buddy was a good defender then maybe I could swallow that nonsense, but he's not!!!!! Bledsoe scored almost every time Buddy guarded him one on one. Some of the baskets were inexcusable. Twice with Buddy guarding Bledsoe once and Paul George the other he turned his head to ball watch and both of them backdoored Buddy for easy layups. Once on a fast break by the Clippers, and Bledsoe with the ball, Buddy who was back playing safety, simply got out of Bledsoe's way to let him score.

Maybe some of you are OK with that kind of performance by Buddy, but I'm not, and I've had it with him, and the Kings who keep giving him the ball. Enough is enough!!! Buddy has to go. Anyone who thinks this can be a winning team with Buddy on it, is smoking something. As for Fox, who said he was supposed to singlehandedly make us a champion. I never thought that. I'm happy with his play overall. Yeah, it's down a bit from last season, but still very respectable. I agree on defense. It's not that he's a bad defender, its that he's an inconsistent defender. My hope is that with Haliburton taking over a large chunk of the ball handling it would allow Fox more energy on the defensive side. That's yet to happen, but he's still very young and the two haven't really played together that long.

Yes this team has problems, but one of them isn't Fox or Haliburton. We have one real wing player on the team in Barnes. We bounce different players in and out of the lineup at the PF position. The roster isn't balanced. Lets correct some of those problems before we start trading our best players. That doesn't mean I wouldn't trade Fox for the right price. I mean I'll trade him straight up for Paul George right now. Don't think that's going to happen. Me personally, the only player I wouldn't trade is Haliburton. I said I thought he was the best player in his draft and I still believe that. And he is the leader the Kings are looking for. Just a matter of time!
Just plain wrong.
Why, plain and simple - Buddy is the best we have. If we had a better alternative, then coming out of the timeout, the play would be directed to the better alternative. Do you think the coach likes losing? Why don't we give the ball to Steph Curry? Because we don't have Steph Curry.

Buddy can light it up, has quick release, can score in bunches, as when he won the 3 point shootout at all-star break. Who would you rather have hoisting shots up when you are down by 10 in the 4th?
 
As if Buddy is the problem. He has been a high level role player filling his role for those people that desire to win now. Hes one of the best three point shooters in the league who can also get his shot off extremely often at very high volume. Thats a great sixth man.

Its ****ing obvious that we arent bad because our sixth man isnt good enough. Stop with that. There is a whole another reason why we arent good enough. Supporting cast of Barnes, Hield, Holmes, Hali, Mitchel is good enough for a championship team. Fox is good enough to be the 2nd best guy if he attempted to play defense or the 3rd guy.

To me its clear. This team isnt a magical coach away from being truly competitive. This team isnt an upgrade to Hield away from being competitive. This team isnt an upgrade to their 9th rotation man away from being competitive. We just lack that top end talent. Thats the thing we can actually significantly improve. And how do we do that? DRAFTING TOP 3. Thats it. The saviour isnt coming from free agency or via trade. Its the draft as it is for all teams that are not free agent destinations. Fight that all you want but certain facts remain the same. The directions are either staying the lane and hoping for a miracle from either the lottery or the draft by picking 8th or worse, or we could do something that put ourselves in a position to get that top 3 draft talent. One direction bases on blind hope and one bases on data and statistics
 
As if Buddy is the problem. He has been a high level role player filling his role for those people that desire to win now. Hes one of the best three point shooters in the league who can also get his shot off extremely often at very high volume. Thats a great sixth man.

Its ****ing obvious that we arent bad because our sixth man isnt good enough. Stop with that. There is a whole another reason why we arent good enough. Supporting cast of Barnes, Hield, Holmes, Hali, Mitchel is good enough for a championship team. Fox is good enough to be the 2nd best guy if he attempted to play defense or the 3rd guy.

To me its clear. This team isnt a magical coach away from being truly competitive. This team isnt an upgrade to Hield away from being competitive. This team isnt an upgrade to their 9th rotation man away from being competitive. We just lack that top end talent. Thats the thing we can actually significantly improve. And how do we do that? DRAFTING TOP 3. Thats it. The saviour isnt coming from free agency or via trade. Its the draft as it is for all teams that are not free agent destinations. Fight that all you want but certain facts remain the same. The directions are either staying the lane and hoping for a miracle from either the lottery or the draft by picking 8th or worse, or we could do something that put ourselves in a position to get that top 3 draft talent. One direction bases on blind hope and one bases on data and statistics
I'm fully on board with trading Buddy. 29 years old and has declined the last few years from the level he was at under Joerger. He just has far too many games where he is only getting 1 point per shot or less. Then he explodes for a couple games and it evens out his numbers but he's just far too inconsistent for my liking. I'll take a better defender who doesn't put you in a position to need a guy like Buddy to shoot you back in the game late in the 4th. At least a player's defensive ability stays fairy consistent. Buddy isn't the problem with this team but it's time to try and trade him for a pick or another player before his value goes down even further.

The draft pick is key. They need a rookie that's at the very least at a Scottie Barnes level to even have a shot at making the back end of the playoffs. Get into the top 3 and now you're giving yourself good odds on franchise changing players and that's what the Kings need.
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
Yeah gotta get a top pick and not Vlade it up. Also cross your fingers that Fox + aggressive Hali can get something going as a one/two punch.

I’m on board with the Buddy Bashing though. ESP47 makes a good point about his streaky play hiding his overall negative impact.

Dude is low BBIQ and a negative defender, so he’s only helping the team out in that one game in three where he explodes from 3. I’d love to wake up to news that he got traded.
 
Trade Buddy for a pick/future assets. Fully on board with that. Trading him for another win now guy, you wont get equal value AND it wouldnt turn this team from bad to good. Imo thats just how it is and hoping to turn Buddy into another win now vet that makes us contenders is just fools gold.

Theres Covid, the team is bad, we arent making the playoffs. Just punt for this season before its too late as always. Trade Buddy ect for future assets. Or dont but at least dont play your starters 40+minutes with 7man rotation. Put yourself in a best possible position to get that difference maker via draft. Its not coming via free agency as we are capped out. I dont know what trade magic you are hoping for but I hate to break it to you, it probably arent coming from there either. It also isnt coming from getting a marginal improvement for one of our already good role players. If its coming its coming via the ****ing draft
 
My two cents on Fox, expecting to convince no one of anything.

Pros
  • Often a dynamic scorer with ability to put the team on his back for stretches. Absolutely. And if/when this team gets to the playoffs, when defenses tighten and "team ball" sets that worked during the regular season just don't any more, you NEED a guy like Fox who *can* sometimes do it on his own to succeed. Kings don't have another guy who can do that - and teams don't make such guys available.
  • Can get to the line, which is also often key when nothing else works. He and HB are the only two who've shown that ability with any consistency, and certainly the other two who both get to the line and hit 'em (De'Aaron at 74% right now, getting into respectable territory)
  • Phenomenal athlete who clearly can play well-above-average defense when he cares to.
  • Has the skills to create for others.
  • In terms of the dynamism of his game, his personality, his embrace of Sacramento (it matters), he has face-of-the-franchise potential.
Cons
  • IMO, Fox is by no means an attitudinally selfish player, but his scoring style is so ball-dominant and disruptive to any offensive flow his teammates might otherwise benefit from that he might as well be. When he's trying to take over, it's not unusual to see two, even three offensive trips where he's literally the only one who touches the ball. As a result, the offensive talent the team DOES have, besides Fox, is often underutilized and/or completely out-of-rhythm when opportunities do arise. This is especially true of HB.
  • Has the skills to create for others - i.e., if he sees the play, he can make the connection - but often seems to lack the vision and/or the inclination to make the right pass.
  • Poor outside shooting makes him below-average off-ball, which makes it hard to maximize his presence and Tyrese's on the floor at the same time especially since he's not as good a distributor as Tyrese is. Having one on the floor at all times and having them take turns handling are only partial solutions at best.
  • He typically doesn't lead by example defensively. And not because he can't. We've seen him be very good. But the ebbs and flows in his effort on that end are more dramatic and frequent than those of any other rotation player. Yes, it takes all 5 to create strong team D, but one guy on the perimeter can singlehandedly muck things up for the other 4. Too often, Fox is that guy.
 
My two cents on Fox, expecting to convince no one of anything.

Pros
  • Often a dynamic scorer with ability to put the team on his back for stretches. Absolutely. And if/when this team gets to the playoffs, when defenses tighten and "team ball" sets that worked during the regular season just don't any more, you NEED a guy like Fox who *can* sometimes do it on his own to succeed. Kings don't have another guy who can do that - and teams don't make such guys available.
  • Can get to the line, which is also often key when nothing else works. He and HB are the only two who've shown that ability with any consistency, and certainly the other two who both get to the line and hit 'em (De'Aaron at 74% right now, getting into respectable territory)
  • Phenomenal athlete who clearly can play well-above-average defense when he cares to.
  • Has the skills to create for others.
  • In terms of the dynamism of his game, his personality, his embrace of Sacramento (it matters), he has face-of-the-franchise potential.
Cons
  • IMO, Fox is by no means an attitudinally selfish player, but his scoring style is so ball-dominant and disruptive to any offensive flow his teammates might otherwise benefit from that he might as well be. When he's trying to take over, it's not unusual to see two, even three offensive trips where he's literally the only one who touches the ball. As a result, the offensive talent the team DOES have, besides Fox, is often underutilized and/or completely out-of-rhythm when opportunities do arise. This is especially true of HB.
  • Has the skills to create for others - i.e., if he sees the play, he can make the connection - but often seems to lack the vision and/or the inclination to make the right pass.
  • Poor outside shooting makes him below-average off-ball, which makes it hard to maximize his presence and Tyrese's on the floor at the same time especially since he's not as good a distributor as Tyrese is. Having one on the floor at all times and having them take turns handling are only partial solutions at best.
  • He typically doesn't lead by example defensively. And not because he can't. We've seen him be very good. But the ebbs and flows in his effort on that end are more dramatic and frequent than those of any other rotation player. Yes, it takes all 5 to create strong team D, but one guy on the perimeter can singlehandedly muck things up for the other 4. Too often, Fox is that guy.
Fair. The Cons that you’ve cited, that’s wiring. Players are able to re-wire, but it usually doesn’t happen till they’ve lost a step or need to, to stick in the league. Rafer Alston, J-Will…DSJ likely will need to re-wire to stick in the league.
 
Yeah gotta get a top pick and not Vlade it up. Also cross your fingers that Fox + aggressive Hali can get something going as a one/two punch.

I’m on board with the Buddy Bashing though. ESP47 makes a good point about his streaky play hiding his overall negative impact.

Dude is low BBIQ and a negative defender, so he’s only helping the team out in that one game in three where he explodes from 3. I’d love to wake up to news that he got traded.
1 amazing game from 3 for 7 bad games isn’t worth it. He clearly doesn’t want to be here anymore and is just trying to get his contract escalators.
 
1 amazing game from 3 for 7 bad games isn’t worth it. He clearly doesn’t want to be here anymore and is just trying to get his contract escalators.
And that's on the team for openly trying to trade him, having thought they did, and then sitting and sitting after the fact.
 
The problem with this team isn't Fox! The problem, at least the immediate problem is a player named Buddy Hield. You can't have a player play 43 minutes and shoot 5 of 18 from the three, 5 of 22 overall, while playing horrible defense. Do that every night and it's almost impossible to win games. Three times in last nights game, Buddy dribbled the shot clock down to 2 seconds and then passed the ball the first time to Harkless who had to put up a shot with a hand in his face. The look of disgust on Harkless face said it all. The second time to Haliburton, who had just enough time to throw up a wild 3 pointer. And the last time to Triston Thompson, who actually made his first 3 pointer of the year. Buddy got an undeserved assist out of that one.

The problem is that this kind of performance by Buddy is more the norm than an aberration this season. Why Doug continued to play Hield that many minutes is beyond me. His statement in the press conference that he thinks every shot Buddy takes is going in might have been true a couple of years ago, but not this season. If Buddy was a good defender then maybe I could swallow that nonsense, but he's not!!!!! Bledsoe scored almost every time Buddy guarded him one on one. Some of the baskets were inexcusable. Twice with Buddy guarding Bledsoe once and Paul George the other he turned his head to ball watch and both of them backdoored Buddy for easy layups. Once on a fast break by the Clippers, and Bledsoe with the ball, Buddy who was back playing safety, simply got out of Bledsoe's way to let him score.

Maybe some of you are OK with that kind of performance by Buddy, but I'm not, and I've had it with him, and the Kings who keep giving him the ball. Enough is enough!!! Buddy has to go. Anyone who thinks this can be a winning team with Buddy on it, is smoking something. As for Fox, who said he was supposed to singlehandedly make us a champion. I never thought that. I'm happy with his play overall. Yeah, it's down a bit from last season, but still very respectable. I agree on defense. It's not that he's a bad defender, its that he's an inconsistent defender. My hope is that with Haliburton taking over a large chunk of the ball handling it would allow Fox more energy on the defensive side. That's yet to happen, but he's still very young and the two haven't really played together that long.

Yes this team has problems, but one of them isn't Fox or Haliburton. We have one real wing player on the team in Barnes. We bounce different players in and out of the lineup at the PF position. The roster isn't balanced. Lets correct some of those problems before we start trading our best players. That doesn't mean I wouldn't trade Fox for the right price. I mean I'll trade him straight up for Paul George right now. Don't think that's going to happen. Me personally, the only player I wouldn't trade is Haliburton. I said I thought he was the best player in his draft and I still believe that. And he is the leader the Kings are looking for. Just a matter of time!
This summer, from the same basketball mind that brought you "WCS is a great defender" and "Thomas Robinson is NBA-ready".
 
The problem with this team isn't Fox! The problem, at least the immediate problem is a player named Buddy Hield. You can't have a player play 43 minutes and shoot 5 of 18 from the three, 5 of 22 overall, while playing horrible defense. Do that every night and it's almost impossible to win games. Three times in last nights game, Buddy dribbled the shot clock down to 2 seconds and then passed the ball the first time to Harkless who had to put up a shot with a hand in his face. The look of disgust on Harkless face said it all. The second time to Haliburton, who had just enough time to throw up a wild 3 pointer. And the last time to Triston Thompson, who actually made his first 3 pointer of the year. Buddy got an undeserved assist out of that one.

The problem is that this kind of performance by Buddy is more the norm than an aberration this season. Why Doug continued to play Hield that many minutes is beyond me. His statement in the press conference that he thinks every shot Buddy takes is going in might have been true a couple of years ago, but not this season. If Buddy was a good defender then maybe I could swallow that nonsense, but he's not!!!!! Bledsoe scored almost every time Buddy guarded him one on one. Some of the baskets were inexcusable. Twice with Buddy guarding Bledsoe once and Paul George the other he turned his head to ball watch and both of them backdoored Buddy for easy layups. Once on a fast break by the Clippers, and Bledsoe with the ball, Buddy who was back playing safety, simply got out of Bledsoe's way to let him score.

Maybe some of you are OK with that kind of performance by Buddy, but I'm not, and I've had it with him, and the Kings who keep giving him the ball. Enough is enough!!! Buddy has to go. Anyone who thinks this can be a winning team with Buddy on it, is smoking something. As for Fox, who said he was supposed to singlehandedly make us a champion. I never thought that. I'm happy with his play overall. Yeah, it's down a bit from last season, but still very respectable. I agree on defense. It's not that he's a bad defender, its that he's an inconsistent defender. My hope is that with Haliburton taking over a large chunk of the ball handling it would allow Fox more energy on the defensive side. That's yet to happen, but he's still very young and the two haven't really played together that long.

Yes this team has problems, but one of them isn't Fox or Haliburton. We have one real wing player on the team in Barnes. We bounce different players in and out of the lineup at the PF position. The roster isn't balanced. Lets correct some of those problems before we start trading our best players. That doesn't mean I wouldn't trade Fox for the right price. I mean I'll trade him straight up for Paul George right now. Don't think that's going to happen. Me personally, the only player I wouldn't trade is Haliburton. I said I thought he was the best player in his draft and I still believe that. And he is the leader the Kings are looking for. Just a matter of time!
I sincerely appreciate the detailed response - much respect.

I agree with you 100% about Buddy. Overall, he’s much more of a detriment on this Kings team than a benefit. Maybe as a 3-point specialist on a different squad he could be a nice contributor, but he doesn’t fit here in Sacramento if the goal is to build a winner.

Regarding Fox, I don’t think that he is “the problem”, but I’m not convinced that he is the solution either. He’s a good NBA player, but not dominant enough that he can carry his team to victory when needed with any degree of regularity.

His deficiencies on the court (subpar defense and 3-point shooting) and his apparent reluctance to be a leader, along with some comments that he has made in the media lead some of us to question whether he’s really the guy that this franchise should build around.

I understand that Fox hasn’t had a very strong supporting cast, but I just haven’t seen enough from him that makes me think that he is giving his all to getting to the next level as a player and that he has the fortitude and resolve of a winner.

In what is now De’Aaron’s 5th NBA season, some consistent themes have emerged about his play - he’s not a strong defender, hasn’t developed a reliable jumper, and doesn’t distribute the ball at anywhere near an elite level. Since we haven’t seen much if any growth to this point from him in these key areas, it doesn’t seem likely to me that we are going to note meaningful improvement from here forward.

Accordingly, I think that he is already at or very near his ceiling and therefore not worthy of the franchise going “all in” with him as a prominent part of a re-tooled core.

It’s abundantly clear that the recent emergence of Haliburton signifies that HE is the Kings PG of the future, relegating Fox to a different role which I don’t think his skill set is well-suited for.

So, what should the Kings do with their highly-paid, non-star PG when they have an heir-apparent who is a more complete player, more of a natural fit at the position, and appears to have superior leadership qualities?

Trading Fox for assets that would address the holes on this roster (like the wing spot that you mentioned) seems like an approach that solves a host of issues for this franchise.

I don’t think there’s much disagreement between us.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
Hield is like Bogdanovich, they are coach killers. Tantalize with 2 good games out of 6-7. Makes you want to keep them out there but in the long run, they hurt you in the long run. Big sample size here
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
Hilarious that Fox is criticized for “plays defense when he wants too” while Hali apparently is getting a pass on his defense currently. Fear not, if Fox is dealt, then the heat will come down on Hali as he fails to live up to his eventual extension. Meanwhile, just enjoy the empty stats Hali is putting up like Tyreke because that’s what it’s called when the team loses right? Boogie had empty stats, Reke had empty stats, Fox has empty stats……Lol
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
My two cents on Fox, expecting to convince no one of anything.

Pros
  • Often a dynamic scorer with ability to put the team on his back for stretches. Absolutely. And if/when this team gets to the playoffs, when defenses tighten and "team ball" sets that worked during the regular season just don't any more, you NEED a guy like Fox who *can* sometimes do it on his own to succeed. Kings don't have another guy who can do that - and teams don't make such guys available.
  • Can get to the line, which is also often key when nothing else works. He and HB are the only two who've shown that ability with any consistency, and certainly the other two who both get to the line and hit 'em (De'Aaron at 74% right now, getting into respectable territory)
  • Phenomenal athlete who clearly can play well-above-average defense when he cares to.
  • Has the skills to create for others.
  • In terms of the dynamism of his game, his personality, his embrace of Sacramento (it matters), he has face-of-the-franchise potential.
Cons
  • IMO, Fox is by no means an attitudinally selfish player, but his scoring style is so ball-dominant and disruptive to any offensive flow his teammates might otherwise benefit from that he might as well be. When he's trying to take over, it's not unusual to see two, even three offensive trips where he's literally the only one who touches the ball. As a result, the offensive talent the team DOES have, besides Fox, is often underutilized and/or completely out-of-rhythm when opportunities do arise. This is especially true of HB.
  • Has the skills to create for others - i.e., if he sees the play, he can make the connection - but often seems to lack the vision and/or the inclination to make the right pass.
  • Poor outside shooting makes him below-average off-ball, which makes it hard to maximize his presence and Tyrese's on the floor at the same time especially since he's not as good a distributor as Tyrese is. Having one on the floor at all times and having them take turns handling are only partial solutions at best.
  • He typically doesn't lead by example defensively. And not because he can't. We've seen him be very good. But the ebbs and flows in his effort on that end are more dramatic and frequent than those of any other rotation player. Yes, it takes all 5 to create strong team D, but one guy on the perimeter can singlehandedly muck things up for the other 4. Too often, Fox is that guy.
Fox is not different than he has been the previous years. Damn good player but somehow once a player signs a max contract, people expect something else. He makes the team better with his ability on the court and teams scheme for him packing the paint. It creates opportunities for others. You saw what happened in the Clippers game. Absolutely took Hali out of the game early as well as every other guy. Having Fox on the floor for teams like this would have allowed Hali more freedom as well as others. The Kings should try really hard to make this Hali and Fox backcourt work. If Hali goes back to being tentative, that’s not Fox’s fault, that’s a Hali problem.
 
Hilarious that Fox is criticized for “plays defense when he wants too” while Hali apparently is getting a pass on his defense currently. Fear not, if Fox is dealt, then the heat will come down on Hali as he fails to live up to his eventual extension.
Hali may/may not live up to his next contract extension, but it won't be for lack of effort.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
C'mon, Bajaden. Do you really think anyone's arguing with you here? I'm pretty sure that no Kings fan is "OK" with a 5-18/5-22/crappy-defense performance from Buddy. But "this kind of performance by Buddy is more the norm than an aberration this season"? No, at least with respect to his shooting that's just not remotely true. Right or wrong, DC stayed with him precisely because we have every reason NOT to expect such shooting ineptitude from Buddy. In a down year, the guy's shooting 37.2% from 3 and has a true shooting % - this year - equivalent to Bags' and higher than TT, Fox, Davis, Metu, and Mitchell. Last year's 39.1% from 3 is his full-season low in Sacramento.

Course, it wasn't just the brickfest that pained us all, it was the high-volume bricking. But good luck finding another game where he shot so poorly over so many attempts.

I want Buddy gone as much as the next guy, but, a) you're preaching to the choir on that, far as I can tell, and, b) last night was not at all "typical Buddy," certainly not in re the extreme awfulness. No need to exaggerate wildly to make a point hardly anyone, if anyone, disputes.
The problem is that there has been several games where he went 1 for 8 in the first half. There was a game where he went 0 for 6 in the first half, both of those recently, and if you need me to I can go back and find multiple games where he bricked the whole game. When you go 1 for 8 in the first half, and your down 15 pt's at the half, part of the reason your down is because Buddy shot you out of the game. What good is it to go 4 for 5 from the three in the second half when your down 25 pt's. Buddy has been too little too late too many times this year.

All that said, I wouldn't be on his case if he drove to the basket, or tried to hit a few midrange shots. But no, he just keeps chucking up bricks. Let me ask you this. Do you think Pops would have allowed him to keep shooting bricks? Do you think any good coach in the NBA would have allowed him to do that? Buddy had his best year under Joerger, who I personally didn't like that much, but he held Buddy accountable and Buddy didn't have the green light under Joerger.

However, the main reason I brought Buddy up was because of the talk about Fox, as if Fox was the reason the team is in it's current state. I never looked at Fox as the solution to the Kings problems. I looked at him as part of the solution.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
I sincerely appreciate the detailed response - much respect.

I agree with you 100% about Buddy. Overall, he’s much more of a detriment on this Kings team than a benefit. Maybe as a 3-point specialist on a different squad he could be a nice contributor, but he doesn’t fit here in Sacramento if the goal is to build a winner.

Regarding Fox, I don’t think that he is “the problem”, but I’m not convinced that he is the solution either. He’s a good NBA player, but not dominant enough that he can carry his team to victory when needed with any degree of regularity.

His deficiencies on the court (subpar defense and 3-point shooting) and his apparent reluctance to be a leader, along with some comments that he has made in the media lead some of us to question whether he’s really the guy that this franchise should build around.

I understand that Fox hasn’t had a very strong supporting cast, but I just haven’t seen enough from him that makes me think that he is giving his all to getting to the next level as a player and that he has the fortitude and resolve of a winner.

In what is now De’Aaron’s 5th NBA season, some consistent themes have emerged about his play - he’s not a strong defender, hasn’t developed a reliable jumper, and doesn’t distribute the ball at anywhere near an elite level. Since we haven’t seen much if any growth to this point from him in these key areas, it doesn’t seem likely to me that we are going to note meaningful improvement from here forward.

Accordingly, I think that he is already at or very near his ceiling and therefore not worthy of the franchise going “all in” with him as a prominent part of a re-tooled core.

It’s abundantly clear that the recent emergence of Haliburton signifies that HE is the Kings PG of the future, relegating Fox to a different role which I don’t think his skill set is well-suited for.

So, what should the Kings do with their highly-paid, non-star PG when they have an heir-apparent who is a more complete player, more of a natural fit at the position, and appears to have superior leadership qualities?

Trading Fox for assets that would address the holes on this roster (like the wing spot that you mentioned) seems like an approach that solves a host of issues for this franchise.

I don’t think there’s much disagreement between us.
Well as I stated, I've always looked at Fox as part of the solution. I realize that when a player signs a max contract the fans automatically expect him to play like a superstar. And in fact, I think that was part of Fox's problem at the beginning of the year. I think he was putting too much pressure on himself and playing tight. Of late he's looked more like himself. As for as putting in the work, if anyone takes notice, Fox has scored a lot of his points this season with his midrange game from 15 to 16 feet. Something he attributes to working with Rico Hines. He seems to be able to get that shot anytime he wants.

As to what his future with the team should be? I think you have to give him and Haliburton more time together. Haliburton seems to me, to be trying to fit in next to Fox. Hali needs to play his game, and let Fox figure out how to fit in with him. Take some of those stupid shots Buddy puts up and give them to Haliburton, who right now is a better more efficient shooter than Buddy is. There's my hanging participle! That said, if a deal you can't refuse comes along that includes Fox, then so be it.

Someone took a shot at Haliburton's defense, and if this was last year I would agree with that. But he's been greatly improved this year, and leads the team in deflections, and probably steals. Yes he gets caught in a pick once in a while, but how many times has he pursued and blocked a shot from behind, or stole the ball. Does he get beat off the dribble on occasion? Sure, but every player does. But I'm not about to criticize either Fox or Haliburton's defense while Buddy is still on the floor with this team. Haliburton is a 1st team defensive player compared to Buddy.