Couldn't agree with you more. How much longer do we have to hear about Hawe's "potential" He's not all of a sudden going to develop into Olajuwon overnight. I understand bigs needing more years to develop but his years have been spent refining his shot and firing away. Unless we're throwing him into the 3 point shooting contest I see no reason why he is being coached, or let to shoot 3s. Why has the coaching staff let him camp our there so much? Either they're blind or this is actually PLANNED. It's a joke. He's arguably regressed in the time he's spent in the Kings uniform. Makes me sick.
Kings - Jazz post game discussion
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
There is truth to what you say. At least when looking back on last year. Its hard to say about whats transpired so far this year, because I've only been able to watch one game. But last year I complained about the very same thing. I will say that from watching the summer league games, which Hawes didn't participate in, and the one preseason game, it appears the Evans and Thompson have developed some chemistry, and run the pick and roll and pick and pop together pertty well. It would be nice to see Hawes involved too...
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Hawes seems to have gotten the Miller disease, and it could be serious unless he's given a full innoculation. If we continue to see this Miller-like performance, Westphal can continue to start May for the rest of the season as far as I am concerned. And May should get most of the minutes as well. You can't reward poor play, regardless of whether the young player has talent. He's got to earn it, just like Greene. I'm very dissapointed in what I've heard and read. It makes you think that Hawes has done virtually nothing in the offseason to prepare himself.
As an aside, Hawes's performance also makes me wonder whether this is a side-effect of the coaching carousel he's seen ever since he was drafted. Maybe we have to wait until next year to see the effect of Westphal on the young man.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Point taken. Sounds like you have actually seen some games, which I haven't. That said, I'm wondering if the practices have shown to the players (guards, in particular) and the coaches that Hawes doesn't currently have a good low post game. Maybe they have no interest in developing his inside game during actual games because he hasn't shown interest in the offseason to improve it. Lastly, I don't have an impression at all of Hawes having a significant defensive presence or rebouding presence in these preseason games. Regardless of his point production, he's got to improve in those areas. I hope it works out because I really think Hawes is the key to this season. If he plays lousy (for whatever reason) then we're looking at another 17 win season rather than 25-30.
rhythmless
Starter
Went to the game last night, saw it from multiple angles...
Spencer was absolutely Haweful. SET A DAMN SCREEN. Bigs need to set screens. Thompson tries, but Hawes just slips. And its a horrible slip at that. He doesn't wait for the defenseto read his screen before he slips. He just makes a fake screen then immediately slips, calling for the ball. With no spacing. It's HORRIBLE ball, and it shows me taht he is both selfish and stupid.
At one point, he swatted the ball OUT of his teammates hands for a rebound. Just pathetic. I'm sitting there shaking my head wondering wtf he is doing out there.
Thompson was active, he caught on a mini fire after his block on a SURE dunk. His blocks were particularly encouraging this game. Good timing, clean, and very much the emotional gamechanging stuff we need around here. His mini fire had us finding him in the post, and letting him do his stuff.
May was active in the early going as well. One play, he ran after the fast break and blocked a shot, then came sprinting back and knocked down a 20 footer. He's lost all that baby fat, and looks really good as our version of Big Baby (slightly undersized offensive pf who shoots outside jumpers off the bench).
Evans CANNOT handle the ball. Lost it 3 times running the fast break, lost it a few times on passes that should not have been made. He gets his pockets picked way too many times. I don't give a crap what you people want to say to qualify this play. Tell yourselves, Im just giving you what I see at that particular point. He is not a point guard right now. Can he be? Maybe. He needs to work on his ballhandling the most, because anyone on our team could do what he has been doing with the turnovers.
That said, amazing body control. This kid has the skills to be special.
Beno... beno, beno, beno. If I was westphal, you would be sitting with Kenny Thomas. He missed a streaking Donte who ran behind ALL the Jazz defense for an easy fastbreak layup. Beno didn't see him. Got his ankles absolutely broken by Deron Williams in one of the last plays. Seriously, he jumped about 4 feet to the wrong side. Mostly ineffective, just a nonfactor.
Sergio. I think he is a great addition. Portland didn't give up on him as much as let him out of their depth chart they had there. His vision may be the best out of all kings. He made some good passes, but overplays a little too much for me.
Donte. I am a big Donte naysayer around here. I like him, but unlike some, I am perfectly fine w/him not playing much because his mentality is total crap. Yesterday, he played a fine game. Didn't force his shots, had a nifty inside dropstep/driving layup that didn't fall. It was encouraging. He boxed out, and generally did the things to keep him on the court. Good job Donte.
Spencer was absolutely Haweful. SET A DAMN SCREEN. Bigs need to set screens. Thompson tries, but Hawes just slips. And its a horrible slip at that. He doesn't wait for the defenseto read his screen before he slips. He just makes a fake screen then immediately slips, calling for the ball. With no spacing. It's HORRIBLE ball, and it shows me taht he is both selfish and stupid.
At one point, he swatted the ball OUT of his teammates hands for a rebound. Just pathetic. I'm sitting there shaking my head wondering wtf he is doing out there.
Thompson was active, he caught on a mini fire after his block on a SURE dunk. His blocks were particularly encouraging this game. Good timing, clean, and very much the emotional gamechanging stuff we need around here. His mini fire had us finding him in the post, and letting him do his stuff.
May was active in the early going as well. One play, he ran after the fast break and blocked a shot, then came sprinting back and knocked down a 20 footer. He's lost all that baby fat, and looks really good as our version of Big Baby (slightly undersized offensive pf who shoots outside jumpers off the bench).
Evans CANNOT handle the ball. Lost it 3 times running the fast break, lost it a few times on passes that should not have been made. He gets his pockets picked way too many times. I don't give a crap what you people want to say to qualify this play. Tell yourselves, Im just giving you what I see at that particular point. He is not a point guard right now. Can he be? Maybe. He needs to work on his ballhandling the most, because anyone on our team could do what he has been doing with the turnovers.
That said, amazing body control. This kid has the skills to be special.
Beno... beno, beno, beno. If I was westphal, you would be sitting with Kenny Thomas. He missed a streaking Donte who ran behind ALL the Jazz defense for an easy fastbreak layup. Beno didn't see him. Got his ankles absolutely broken by Deron Williams in one of the last plays. Seriously, he jumped about 4 feet to the wrong side. Mostly ineffective, just a nonfactor.
Sergio. I think he is a great addition. Portland didn't give up on him as much as let him out of their depth chart they had there. His vision may be the best out of all kings. He made some good passes, but overplays a little too much for me.
Donte. I am a big Donte naysayer around here. I like him, but unlike some, I am perfectly fine w/him not playing much because his mentality is total crap. Yesterday, he played a fine game. Didn't force his shots, had a nifty inside dropstep/driving layup that didn't fall. It was encouraging. He boxed out, and generally did the things to keep him on the court. Good job Donte.
Rockmeister
All-Star
He also had 7 TOs.
Rockmeister
All-Star
Yeah. This is one of those "is Geoff screwing up, or is it the Maloofs?" sort of unanswerable questions.
We've seen Hawes practicing 3s, and maybe that's all Coachie. Or maybe Hawes just thinks his destiny is to become a 7' tall Kevin Martin.
*shrug*
Whatever the cause, it needs to stop. Immediately.
Showtime
Starter
What we know is what we see. And what we see is an ENTIRE TEAM neglecting the post game. It's not just Hawes, it's JT, May, whomever, that only posts up and gets the entry pass once in a while, and not on a consistent basis as part of the offense. If the entire team's offensive plan included an emphasis on the post game, we wouldn't be watching what we are watching. Again, go look at teams who have a focus on the post game, and you will see teams that don't treat it like an afterthought. Now, maybe an argument can be made that the coaches don't want to go to them because they don't have faith in the personnel they have, and are thus shying away from that area, but they've never been the team to utilize that low post game since GP and the Maloofs arrived.
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HighTopKicks
Bench
Let me get into this bash Spencer thread.
First, everyone is assuming that Spencer is coming off the bench because of his poor play in your eyes. PW has defended Hawes in every interview I seen. So, I'm not sure that assumption is correct. Something else that PW has made a point of is the lack of height in our bigs.
My thought here is that PW is experimenting with playing JT & Hawes separately, to spread the height over more minutes. JT & Spencer didn't play together until late in the game. Spencer may be playing poorly, but May hasn't played that well to win the job over Hawes (except for last night)
Hawes wasn't to blame for the lose last night no matter how poorly he played. We had 30 pts in the paint after 60 the game before. We had 17 assists after 28 (not sure on this number) against OKC. Let see, Utah has Okur, Fesenko & Koufos at Center and we have Hawes & May. Utah has Boozer & Millsap & Kirilenko at forward and we have JT, Brockman and a bunch of rookies and role players at SF.
We were heavily outclassed in the front line. They zoned up to keep our guards from penetrating. We ended up being the same jumpshooting team that we were last year. Instead of spending our time blaming one guy who played 19 mins. of really unspectacular ball, how about talking about how our guards need to learn how to brake up the zone or run the pick & roll. How about talking about the lack of backup for Martin, since we lose most of our scoring when he's out. How about talking about our players continueing to shot 3's when they can't even shot FT's.
Or even better, let's talk about the positives, since we only lost by 10 to a far superior team.
First, everyone is assuming that Spencer is coming off the bench because of his poor play in your eyes. PW has defended Hawes in every interview I seen. So, I'm not sure that assumption is correct. Something else that PW has made a point of is the lack of height in our bigs.
My thought here is that PW is experimenting with playing JT & Hawes separately, to spread the height over more minutes. JT & Spencer didn't play together until late in the game. Spencer may be playing poorly, but May hasn't played that well to win the job over Hawes (except for last night)
Hawes wasn't to blame for the lose last night no matter how poorly he played. We had 30 pts in the paint after 60 the game before. We had 17 assists after 28 (not sure on this number) against OKC. Let see, Utah has Okur, Fesenko & Koufos at Center and we have Hawes & May. Utah has Boozer & Millsap & Kirilenko at forward and we have JT, Brockman and a bunch of rookies and role players at SF.
We were heavily outclassed in the front line. They zoned up to keep our guards from penetrating. We ended up being the same jumpshooting team that we were last year. Instead of spending our time blaming one guy who played 19 mins. of really unspectacular ball, how about talking about how our guards need to learn how to brake up the zone or run the pick & roll. How about talking about the lack of backup for Martin, since we lose most of our scoring when he's out. How about talking about our players continueing to shot 3's when they can't even shot FT's.
Or even better, let's talk about the positives, since we only lost by 10 to a far superior team.
6th
Homer Fan Since 1985
I don't think that. I'm saying if Spencer spends no time in the post, and stays out high chucking 3's, then the coaches must be telling him to play out there. I can't see PW allowing him to even see the court if he were not playing exactly where he wants him to play. i.e. It is not all Spencer's fault where he plays, not if the coaches were telling him to play there.
If the coaches were telling him to post more, then I would expect we'd see him post more.
gunks
Hall of Famer
Thanks for all that!
I was wondering if you could give me (us) your impressions on Omri as well?
...As for Hawes: he's a Petrie big. We're going to have weak frontlines here as long as we have Petrie and Coachie pimping the princeton. If we end up with the 2nd pick in the draft this year GP is going to pass on Favors for Monroe.
I went to the game last night. There was not a moment in which Evans was closer than 5 feet to Kevin Martin. When Evans got hit in the face, Martin didn't look the least bit interested. During the shoot-around, they were on opposite sides of the arc. It seems like they aren't interested in developing an off the court relationship and that isn't going to help them on the court. I also noticed that this team cannot, for their lives, run a play within the offense. the play would break down, and the one-on-one would commence. There is a bright side because, when they went 1-on-1 they scored. Tyreke has some moves, but most of the time, he would dribble endlessly without moving in any direction. Tyreke was shooting only 3's during shootaround but during the game, he was reluctant to shoot a J. Bad game, FT% was horrid. Omri looked good.
yea, Omri looked good. Not alot of touches, and he really got on himself for missing. He didn't make very many mistakes compared to everyone else other than Thompson and Noc. Omri is being underutilized in the post and on the wing. His shot is very streaky, but he likes to rebound, and he is a willing passer.
rhythmless
Starter
Omri was active, he was guarding Maynor a few times, and didn't embarrass himself too much w/that. He did try and post up once but i forgot the result. Shot the ball quickly, and confidently, but was missing his first few. Knocked down a couple later on, and I would say just a C+ ranking for him.
Hawes gets no excuses as a Petrie big. He is young and does not know the princeton well enough to excuse his stupidity. Thompson mixes it up inside within the SAME offense. Spencer is just too much of a prettyboy PRAT to put in the same type of effort. But shoot more threes than everyone else on the team? He would love to be that guy. Guess we have Memo Okur Lite. yaaaay...
gunks
Hall of Famer
I'm just bitter because Petrie DOES like those types of bigs, not trying to make an excuse for Spence.
Funny how his nickname has gone from Hawesome to Haweful.
He did this last season too....But yeah, as it has been said by many posters here, dude needs to grow a pair. Plenty of scrawny bigs mix it up inside. I hope there's a bunch of 5s in the 2010 draft.
Funny how his nickname has gone from Hawesome to Haweful.
He did this last season too....But yeah, as it has been said by many posters here, dude needs to grow a pair. Plenty of scrawny bigs mix it up inside. I hope there's a bunch of 5s in the 2010 draft.
And how, pray tell, can you justify this impression? From what I've heard from a variety of people who are in a position to at least observe and know, Tyreke and Kev ARE, in fact, already working quite hard on developing a synchronized approach towards their game. And what they may do off court has little to no relevance at all. I don't think Kobe and Shaq or even John Stockton and Karl Malone were ever spotted out doing the town together, but they seemed to work all right when it mattered.
Rockmeister
All-Star
I disagee - as he wouldn't be on the floor if he wasn't running the sets as they asked. And it isn't his fault if they can't feed him the ball down low. He's open, but they pass him by for other options. Did that a lot last year.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
That really isn't much excuse. As somebody else mentioned, Jason runs the same offense, is in fact effectively the center when Spencer is out, and yet oddly, aside from one ugly first half a few games ago, has not been magically morphed into a 3pt shooting wuss.
This is Spencer -- he came into the legaue talking about wanting to be like Brad Miller. I hoped/assumed somebody, maybe even him, would have talked some sense into him since those days. No such luck. He needs an intervention, not excuses. Big men play big, no matter the offense.
I'm well aware you're one of the more respected posters, but this statement is about as stupid as any I've seen on this site, including mine. You just mentioned arguably 4 of the best players of all time at their positions, and the Malone/Stockton pair was unstoppable by anybody. If it wasn't for Jordan, they would have rings to show for it. How you could compare them to Tyreke/KMart I am still trying to grasp. Not even as a joke should they be mentioned with any of our players. I'm not sure what the poster whose comment you were responding to saw, as I haven't, but I would hope that, since they will presumably be starting next to each other, Tyreke and KMart should be talking about anything from the weather to the color of their shoelaces. We need to somehow overcome our lack of talent/experience - that can be done with chemistry. I would hope they are developing it somehow. If in fact they are not talking or being buddy buddy, it can be a problem. Not that it will, but it can be.
So you are blaming Spencer for Beno not throwing him the ball down low when he is open?
6th
Homer Fan Since 1985
Ummm! I think you may be reading more than is there. She was not comparing our players with Stockton/Malone. She was simply using easily recognizable "duos" to show that even good/great "duos" can work well together on the court without "hanging out" off court.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I just finished watching NBA TV's read on the Kings up coming season. There was some good stuff, like showing some of the Kings practice with Westphal. There was a moment with May posting up Evans. Evans is one strong dude. I was also impressed with Evans command at the practice. But I digress. There was an interview with Martin. Naturaly Evans came up. Martin had nothing but good to say about him. Of course I would have been shocked if he had said otherwise on national tv. But he also said that he had lobbied for the Kings to select Evans before the draft. How he told Westphal how much he wanted Evans on the team. Now that doesn't sound like someone thats having chemistry problems with Evans.
I wouldn't read too much into how players relate to each other during the game, except when their on the floor together. Each player has their own game mode or face if you will. When I played baseball, I was so focused when I went to bat that I couldn't hear the crowd. Some players go completely inside themselves. Others find relief from the tension by being clowns and goofing around. My point is, we don't know whats in a persons mind. Hell, I don't know whats in my wife's mind and I live with her everyday. So how could I possibly know whats in Kevin Martins mind while watching from the stands.
I think what he meant was that those duos were as you said, great, and thus didn't particularly require as much chemistry to perform at a high level. our duo on the other hand, is unlikely to be as talented and thus chemistry becomes significantly more important than it was for the aforementioned great duos.
IMO you can't tell how their chemistry is just by seeing where they were shooting from and all. Obviously we hope that they do have good chemistry
K
Kingsguy881
Guest
Funny you mention Duncan. I'm about to defend Brick, like he needs defending
, and tell you what is so different about the two. When a two man game is ran, or when Spencer drifts onto the perimeter, he always sets himself up at or near the three point line. A good center WILL be able to hit outside jumpshots, however the norm is at most 20 feet. The reason being that this is generally your tallest player, and this distance puts them at a position where they can't crash the boards.Duncan does not stray far outside this limit, because he knows that will put him too far outside and he won't be able to crash the boards or get easy buckets in transition. Spencer OTOH actually sets himself up at or beyond this limit, like he is scared to crash the boards on every play. Thus it also helps minimize the buckets he could get in transition, or easy put backs. Now it doesn't eliminate them. He still does crash the boards. Just not nearly enough for the tallest and biggest person on the team.
I'm sure if he doesn't open his eyes soon and start playing like he should he will be benched and his minutes given our backup....oh, never mind.
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