Grant Napear wins Emperor's New Clothes award

[bigbadred00]

Kings had some of the best chemistry in the league until the '04-'05 offseason. And that chemistry dissolution coincided with the departure of Vlade Divac, not Chris Webber. Vlade was absolutely a leader on this team, and the shared spirit of Divac and Webber held the team together like glue. Once a split opened up and was laid bare after the Minnesota series, that was it for the chemistry we used to have.

then CURSE the Lakers for our chemistry problems .

 

[twocents]

Kings had some of the best chemistry in the league until the '04-'05 offseason. And that chemistry dissolution coincided with the departure of Vlade Divac, not Chris Webber. Vlade was absolutely a leader on this team, and the shared spirit of Divac and Webber held the team together like glue. Once a split opened up and was laid bare after the Minnesota series, that was it for the chemistry we used to have.

that is my perception as well.

 

[VF21]

This thread is being temporarily closed while I get rid of some stuff that is CLEARLY not appropriate. If your post disappears, I sincerely hope you understand why.

Thank you.

I'm reopening the thread but with a lot of reservations. If it goes astray again, it will be closed permanently.

 

[KP]

This is healthy, it really is. It's obvious to see what the consensus is at this point.

 

[Bricklayer]

Kings had some of the best chemistry in the league until the '04-'05 offseason. And that chemistry dissolution coincided with the departure of Vlade Divac, not Chris Webber. Vlade was absolutely a leader on this team, and the shared spirit of Divac and Webber held the team together like glue. Once a split opened up and was laid bare after the Minnesota series, that was it for the chemistry we used to have.

That took a chunk of it. But it was not all of it. Other than Peja pouting last year's team still had MUCH MUCH more chemistry and esprit d' corp than the current crew. And why? Webb + DC were still here.

Vlade was important, but my longstanding read on 03-04 was that he made a mistake, and that mistake was really what led to the collapse. Prior to 03-04 there was no split between Peja & Webb or Vlade & Webb. Webb was the #1, Peja the #2, and Vlade & Webb ran the lockerrom like a couple of parents. Set the tone. Only out here in fanland were there very aggressive Peja fans touting a split to get Webb "out of the way" of their hero.

But things began to get shaky when in the middle of the 03-04 year we first heard rumblings that Webb thought "some of his temmates did not think they needed him". Who would have thought it was Vlade of all people. Vlade created super-Peja as his last act for the Kings. It was his heart, his passion, translated through Peja's shooting stroke. And I think he wanted to leave a legacy for his Serbian "little brother". And then Webb came back, and he wasn't exactly feeling welcomed in all corners. And he felt threatened. And his response was to overreach. And Vlade, good ole Vlade, made the gravest of errors. He chose sides. Chose his creation over his partner in making the Kings the Kings. And that was it for chemistry. Webb and Doug teamed up one side, Vlade and Peja both started to quit. Mike was likely on the Webb side too but highly disrupted. Bobby had to watch from the bench. Brad & Darius must have been looking on and wondering what the hell happened, but of course Brad was struggling with injuries and had other concerns. Massenburg opened his ugly mouth. THAT was when chemsitry died. And yes it was Webb, but before that it was Vlade choosing sides that got the ball rolling. Peja is entirely too passive to be responsible for that kind of stuff. Need a powerful personality to bring about that kind of chaos. And you could hear the echoes of the broken Webb/Vlade partnership in both their comments throughout the summer. There was a nice moment early last year when Webb visited Vlade before a Lakers/Kings matchup and brouogh him a watch. Hope it patched a lot of that up. But too late for us of course. Vlade could NOT choose sides. Could not form a bloc opposed to the franchise player. He had to remain neutral. Had to be able to whisper in Webb's ear AND Peja's ear as a friend for us to keep the balance.

 

[Padrino]

Very well put, Padrino. I disagree with you, of course, but this is about as good a case as you can make for why the Webber trade is bad.

thank you. coming from somebody i'm constantly in disagreement with, that means a lot.

you know, in all honesty, i hope you're right, and not me. if i'm right, then that means the kings front office has become mentally deficient when it comes to managing their team. if the supporters of the webber trade are right, then that means GP has something left up his sleeve. either that, or his luck hasn't yet run out, and he can work some magic in the season that remains and the upcoming offseason. unfortunately, i do believe that i am at least partially right, and that the webber situation was handled poorly and wasn't as well thought out as many had previously believed.

regardless of who is right, the fact remains that changes must be made, and needed to be made amidst the webber trade. i do not believe that webber was the piece to be moved, leastways not for the **** we got in return, but i can understand why people believed he needed to be moved. i just think that it would have been more pertinent for the kings to actually put themselves in a position that would benefit them financially, rather than place them in a situation of utter mediocrity.

 

[piksi]

That took a chunk of it. But it was not all of it. Other than Peja pouting last year's team still had MUCH MUCH more chemistry and esprit d' corp than the current crew. And why? Webb + DC were still here.

Vlade was important, but my longstanding read on 03-04 was that he made a mistake, and that mistake was really what led to the collapse. Prior to 03-04 there was no split between Peja & Webb or Vlade & Webb. Webb was the #1, Peja the #2, and Vlade & Webb ran the lockerrom like a couple of parents. Set the tone. Only out here in fanland were there very aggressive Peja fans touting a split to get Webb "out of the way" of their hero.

But things began to get shaky when in the middle of the 03-04 year we first heard rumblings that Webb thought "some of his temmates did not think they needed him". Who would have thought it was Vlade of all people. Vlade created super-Peja as his last act for the Kings. It was his heart, his passion, translated through Peja's shooting stroke. And I think he wanted to leave a legacy for his Serbian "little brother". And then Webb came back, and he wasn't exactly feeling welcomed in all corners. And he felt threatened. And his response was to overreach. And Vlade, good ole Vlade, made the gravest of errors. He chose sides. Chose his creation over his partner in making the Kings the Kings. And that was it for chemistry. Webb and Doug teamed up one side, Vlade and Peja both started to quit. Mike was likely on the Webb side too but highly disrupted. Bobby had to watch from the bench. Brad & Darius must have been looking on and wondering what the hell happened, but of course Brad was struggling with injuries and had other concerns. Massenburg opened his ugly mouth. THAT was when chemsitry died. And yes it was Webb, but before that it was Vlade choosing sides that got the ball rolling. Peja is entirely too passive to be responsible for that kind of stuff. Need a powerful personality to bring about that kind of chaos. And you could hear the echoes of the broken Webb/Vlade partnership in both their comments throughout the summer. There was a nice moment early last year when Webb visited Vlade before a Lakers/Kings matchup and brouogh him a watch. Hope it patched a lot of that up. But too late for us of course. Vlade could NOT choose sides. Could not form a bloc opposed to the franchise player. He had to remain neutral. Had to be able to whisper in Webb's ear AND Peja's ear as a friend for us to keep the balance.

So what You saying is that Webber is not to blame for anything ?

 

[Bricklayer]

So what You saying is that Webber is not to blame for anything ?

Think you need to go back and reread.

What am I saying is that it wasn't some bizarre random out of the blue behavior which is inexplicable.

The above tracks very well with what we do know, and what we have to fill in. It explains what people said, what people did. Webb's ego is and was what it was. But it had always been there and never caused us chemistry problems through years of elite play. Something changed first. And since we know where the coaches and many of he players stand and stood at that time, its actually not that hard to construct a plausible chain of events. Could be wrong. But it explains what happened in reasonable miscalculation terms without ginat evil ogres springing up and stomping through the land. The above is how real peole intereact. The above happens sometimes. And unfortunately to us.

Vlade is a hero to many. Does not mean he was infalliable. My favorite King back in the day. But the evidence points rather strongly to Vlade abandoning his impartial father-figure love-you-all-equally post as the genesis of the chemsitry tailspin. Webb felt threatened and overcompensated, Peja took his cue, everybody else chose up sides, and that was that. Peja is not capable of engineering a coup. But somebody might do it out of "love" for him.

 

[piksi]

Think you need to go back and reread.

What am I saying is that it wasn't some bizarre random out of the blue behavior which is inexplicable.

The above tracks very well with what we do know, and what we have to fill in. It explains what people said, what people did. Webb's ego is and was what it was. But it had always been there and never caused us chemistry problems through years of elite play. Something changed first. And since we know where the coaches and many of he players stand and stood at that time, its actually not that hard to construct a plausible chain of events. Could be wrong. But it explains what happened in reasonable miscalculation terms without ginat evil ogres springing up and stomping through the land. The above is how real peole intereact. The above happens sometimes. And unfortunately to us.

Vlade is a hero to many. Does not mean he was infalliable. My favorite King back in the day. But the evidence points rather strongly to Vlade abandoning his impartial father-figure love-you-all-equally post as the genesis of the chemsitry tailspin. Webb felt threatened and overcompensated, Peja took his cue, everybody else chose up sides, and that was that. Peja is not capable of engineering a coup. But somebody might do it out of "love" for him.

The team "evolved" during the Webber's injury and used to be good without him. When he came back - he couldn't live with not being the man. (funy how things change). So You have a guy (in Pedja) who had a career season and a team that was winning and playing well. What Webber had to do is either sit out the whole season or come back and help out. Not force - help out. You have a well playing unit and then You get a guy who couldn't move abd couldn't stop forcing (the unforgetable 2-21 performance ). That would kill You chemistry right there.
I agree that all of them cary a load of guilt in this situation.

 

[Padrino]

The team "evolved" during the Webber's injury and used to be good without him. When he came back - he couldn't live with not being the man. (funy how things change). So You have a guy (in Pedja) who had a career season and a team that was winning and playing well. What Webber had to do is either sit out the whole season or come back and help out. Not force - help out. You have a well playing unit and then You get a guy who couldn't move abd couldn't stop forcing (the unforgetable 2-21 performance ). That would kill You chemistry right there.
I agree that all of them cary a load of guilt in this situation.

i hate it when people say that webber took back his role as "the man" by force, as if he were actually competing against his teammates, rather than with them. it bothers me. webber didn't do anything different when he came back from injury, and that was part of the problem, but let's not pretend that webber was the Devil Who Stole Peja's Thunder. if peja wanted to be "the man," he should have acted on it. he should have demanded the ball. but no, peja rescinded back into his pouty and passive nature. pardon my vulgarity, but what "killed the chemistry" was peja acting like a little ***** and requesting a trade when he received warranted criticisms from his captain and teammate in the offseason. that was when the kings split into the "two factions" that so many people like to talk about, though i think it was simply the serbian brothers against everybody else. everybody deserves some blame. i'm not calling webber blameless. he made his share of mistakes upon his return, but so did peja, so did the coach, and, inevitably, so did the front office. i don't know how you can completely fault a superstar for wanting to return to his team and take them to a championship. that's more than can ever be said of peja, who winces and calls it quits at the first sign of pain in his pinky.

 

[VF21]

Please disregard my previous comment, which has now been deleted.

I can't revisit that situation any more. It just hurts too badly. It was an ugly situation all around, made so much more ugly by the local media, who couldn't wait to throw someone - usually Chris Webber - to the wolves. To them it was just a story they wrote about and moved on. To those of us who really love this team, it was an oozing festering sore that would not heal. And they're still picking at the scabs, while trying to rewrite history.

Shame on them.

 

[Bricklayer]

The team "evolved" during the Webber's injury and used to be good without him. When he came back - he couldn't live with not being the man. (funy how things change). So You have a guy (in Pedja) who had a career season and a team that was winning and playing well. What Webber had to do is either sit out the whole season or come back and help out. Not force - help out. You have a well playing unit and then You get a guy who couldn't move abd couldn't stop forcing (the unforgetable 2-21 performance ). That would kill You chemistry right there.
I agree that all of them cary a load of guilt in this situation.

That's only the first level you are looking at.

Now you have to take it a step further. Figure out "sides". See where the anamosities lay. Why were Doug and Webb the guys in the locker room shouting? Who were they shouting at? Where was Vlade? Why did Vlade's play deteriorate so quickly? If Bobby supported Webb, and Doug supported Webb, and Mike supported Webb, who does that leave? Who were the "guys who didn't think Webb needed to come back? Certainly not those guys. Why the little shots and seeming Webb/Vlade animoisty over the summer, where there had never been any before (went both ways). Why such a devastating blow to Peja when Vlade did not come back? Give you a hint: he knew he'd just lost his friend and biggest supporter in the lockerroom.

SOMETHING got the mess started. And quite frankly Peja has neither the balls nor the impact for his objections to result in such a fiasco. Only somebody bigger, more critical to the team's soul, could face off with Webb and cause a meltdown. And it seems clear who that someone must have been. And it was a mistake. Mishandled. Misplayed. Vlade made an error. Strongly suspect out of his sense of protecting Peja and leaving a legacy for him (hard to see Vlade pout over his own role, easy to see him pout about not being able to help Peja).

As a further aside, management loved Vlade, and Petrie especially loved Peja. Which then starts going a long way to explaining what happened the next year too.

 

[BigSong]

as far as the webber trade is concerned, i'm going to restate my argument. bricklayer's right, the numbers don't lie. but, for whatever reason, philly is not playing as well as they should be. AI, iguodala, and dalembert should be enough defensive prowess to make up for webber's defensive liabilities. again, for whatever reason, its not. but either way, the argument shouldn't be about how webber is doing in philly or how the kings would be doing if webber was still in sacramento. the argument should be whether or not the kings are better off without webber, his contract, and his bum knee. i'd say no, and not for the reason's being discussed.

people in support of the webber trade seem to be grasping at straws, trying to find a suitable excuse to say that the trade benefits the kings in the long run. my argument is that the kings are no better off in the long run. the oh-so "flexible" contracts we got in return for webb are not as flexible as people thought. all three are still sitting on the kings bench. we still have all of webber's salary, just in the form of three mildly useful but hardly dominant bench players. everybody knows and understands that the easiest way to free up cap space is to let your highest paid players' contracts run their course. and, considering chris webber is the second highest paid player in the league, that's a helluvalotta cap room to be freed up. but its cap room that will belong to the philadelphia 76ers, not the sacramento kings.

the kings will have a little bit of cap space when skinner's and williamson's contracts expire, but thomas' contract will remain. and, keep in mind that kenny thomas' contract extends beyond chris webber's. so, in short, the kings are not better off financially. until kenny thomas is traded, this is simply not debateable. dumping williamson and skinner in their respective contract offseasons will not free up the necessazy cap room to pursue any major stars. philly, on the other hand, will have that opportunity in a couple of years. and if they decide they don't wanna let webber's contract end, they can use it as wonderful trade bait next offseason. the kings, on the other hand, will be sitting in mediocrity as far as the free agent pool is concerned. they'll be sitting in mediocrity as far as the trade pool is concerned, as well, because all they have are mediocre players to offer, unless they wanna pony up miller or bibby and blow the whole thing wide open. but even both bibby and miller are overrated, as i'm sure petrie is discovering.

the point is, until petrie pulls of some magic concerning the contracts of williamson, skinner, and thomas, the webber trade is an absolute disaster, concerning both team chemistry and team finance. i don't think this is debateable. and no one in the kings organization has provided a reasonable debate, financially speaking, for the webber trade. "flexible" contracts is bull****, and everyone in sacramento knows it. now people are backpedaling. simple as that.

that argument is a valid one, in the short term. I certainly didn't think that a Webber-less Kings would crumble as they have done so far. And in the short term, with the way webber is playing we would probably be a better team this season.

but for the long term, its all speculative and its what petrie gets paid to do. i dont think people are grasping at straws when they say that Corliss, Skinner, and thomas give the Kings flexibility. its intersting to me how flexibilty only pertains to their contracts and not others. Having these three players, and now SAR makes it easier to move Peja or Brad, or both for that matter.

as far as 6er's cap space, their in the whole for a long time (not as bad as NYK).It seems like their GM is grasping at straws right about now. Even when webber comes off the books they'll still have Iversons and they'll have to re-up Iguodala contract. They wont be playing heavy into the FA market for some time probably. As for the Kings, Webber might of netted us some big gains, but thats still 2-3 years into the future.Still time for Petrie to work things out.

Petrie's biggest blunder was relying in the current "core."

 

[LPKingsFan]

I think Brick and Rick (Adelman) need to write a tell-all book in a couple years or so.

Great posts (especially Padrino).

 

[bozzwell]

This is turning very ugly, for no reason whatsoever.

Just for the record: At the time of the trade I thought that the trade was good for the Kings because I bought into flexibility clause and I was very wary of Webber's knee (I have one knee too, and I cannot fathom how Webber can play at all at NBA level). Today, I am about 179 degrees away from that view, if not all 180. This team would be better with Webber. Full stop.

And I miss him.

But, I can't really buy into various theories of cloak-and-dagger ploys to dethrone a fellow King buy his teammates, mutinies and divisions in locker room leading to his trade. There are egos, insecurity and all kinds of nusty stuff resulting from it in every locker room (or any workplace for that matter) and they usually surface only in crisis, but that is not to say that they are not there all the time simmering under the surface. Yes, Webber probably felt threatened and dissed on his return and I don't blame him. That's perfectly normal as far as I am concerned. Maybe he went on about it in the wrong way, maybe he didn't I don't know for certain. Pedja probably felt dissed too. He was having career year and he probably felt entitled to a higher position in the pecking order even with Webber taking back his leadership role. Maybe Vlade took sides, maybe he didn't have a choice. As Brick pointed out Pedja is not capable of carrying out mutiny on his own (or he doesn't seem to an outside observer), so maybe Webber felt threatened by Vlade more then anything else. Big deal. They are all grown man. It seems that Vlade and Webb either patched it up or that they correctly decided that they had much more good time together then the '04 episode. For his part, Webber did seem to be genuine in his effort to bring Pedja in from the cold before he got traded. Everything was pointing in the right direction again, so I cannot believe that Webber was traded because he was being a pain or because GP wanted to protect his protege from Webber. I just don't buy it.

GP would have to be the most unprofessional and the worst GM ever. I don't think so.

Pedja would have to be the meanest little BP to ever walk this planet.

Vlade was gone. (Some of you will remember that the first time I posted on KF.com was to convey are rumour that I heard that Vlade was "removed" because of Webber. I don't believe it.)

And all together they would have to be more secretive then NSA to keep it quiet for noone to break ranks and speak out or leak believable details.

When examining the "why" of Webber trade, all I can come up with is that Maloofs and/or GP did not want to pay him the dough they owed him. They were somehow able to justify it to themselves that Webber has not earned that money already and that they cannot pay him 20 mil and as evidenced by the trade they were going to take anything in return. Spare parts on bad contracts.

That's what I think it was all about: Money.

I feel very uncomfortable when we are implicating current and past players in backstabbing ploys against each other and Webber in particular.

 

[thesanityannex]

I'm not debating if Webber should have been traded or not, but if anyone is watching the Bos/Phi game, Webber is looking good and has a few nice dunks. I didn't realize he is tenth in the league right now with minutes played. Guess he's still pretty durable.

 

[loopymitch]

^ He's going to be playing less now. Mo said the back injury worried him and he needs to rest him more. Problem is their bench sucks worse than ours. We have third worst in NBA.

 

[love_them_kings]

I'm not debating if Webber should have been traded or not, but if anyone is watching the Bos/Phi game, Webber is looking good and has a few nice dunks. I didn't realize he is tenth in the league right now with minutes played. Guess he's still pretty durable.

yeah, nice night for Webb. 11/26 --- 31 pts, 13 rebounds, 2 blocks, 4 assists -- Dang, am I glad that we got rid of that dead weight around our ankles! And, he only played 51 minutes --- Philly is really taking it easy on him, it's no wonder he's been healthy so far this season!

 

[KP]

If only he was as durable as Peja... we could have kept him. Oh well.

 

[love_them_kings]

If only he was as durable as Peja... we could have kept him. Oh well.

Well, KP, not everyone can be Peja.

 

[acisking]

That's only the first level you are looking at.

Now you have to take it a step further. Figure out "sides". See where the anamosities lay. Why were Doug and Webb the guys in the locker room shouting? Who were they shouting at? Where was Vlade? Why did Vlade's play deteriorate so quickly? If Bobby supported Webb, and Doug supported Webb, and Mike supported Webb, who does that leave? Who were the "guys who didn't think Webb needed to come back? Certainly not those guys. Why the little shots and seeming Webb/Vlade animoisty over the summer, where there had never been any before (went both ways). Why such a devastating blow to Peja when Vlade did not come back? Give you a hint: he knew he'd just lost his friend and biggest supporter in the lockerroom.

SOMETHING got the mess started. And quite frankly Peja has neither the balls nor the impact for his objections to result in such a fiasco. Only somebody bigger, more critical to the team's soul, could face off with Webb and cause a meltdown. And it seems clear who that someone must have been. And it was a mistake. Mishandled. Misplayed. Vlade made an error. Strongly suspect out of his sense of protecting Peja and leaving a legacy for him (hard to see Vlade pout over his own role, easy to see him pout about not being able to help Peja).

As a further aside, management loved Vlade, and Petrie especially loved Peja. Which then starts going a long way to explaining what happened the next year too.

Thats certainly an interesting spin on it....but in the end its merely speculation.....and speculation that, for what its worth, does little to remedy the wounds left to rot by this organization

I believe, much as Bozzwell does, that it was more than just chemistry isssues that actually led to the trade...financial concerns seem to be the primary culprit. If this actually was the case, then we can clearly say that Petrie made a grave miscalculation in unloading Webber for a trio of mediocore players since the Kings are arguably in a worst position financially than they were last year.

 

[slugking50]

This is turning very ugly, for no reason whatsoever.

Just for the record: At the time of the trade I thought that the trade was good for the Kings because I bought into flexibility clause and I was very wary of Webber's knee (I have one knee too, and I cannot fathom how Webber can play at all at NBA level). Today, I am about 179 degrees away from that view, if not all 180. This team would be better with Webber. Full stop.

And I miss him.

But, I can't really buy into various theories of cloak-and-dagger ploys to dethrone a fellow King buy his teammates, mutinies and divisions in locker room leading to his trade. There are egos, insecurity and all kinds of nusty stuff resulting from it in every locker room (or any workplace for that matter) and they usually surface only in crisis, but that is not to say that they are not there all the time simmering under the surface. Yes, Webber probably felt threatened and dissed on his return and I don't blame him. That's perfectly normal as far as I am concerned. Maybe he went on about it in the wrong way, maybe he didn't I don't know for certain. Pedja probably felt dissed too. He was having career year and he probably felt entitled to a higher position in the pecking order even with Webber taking back his leadership role. Maybe Vlade took sides, maybe he didn't have a choice. As Brick pointed out Pedja is not capable of carrying out mutiny on his own (or he doesn't seem to an outside observer), so maybe Webber felt threatened by Vlade more then anything else. Big deal. They are all grown man. It seems that Vlade and Webb either patched it up or that they correctly decided that they had much more good time together then the '04 episode. For his part, Webber did seem to be genuine in his effort to bring Pedja in from the cold before he got traded. Everything was pointing in the right direction again, so I cannot believe that Webber was traded because he was being a pain or because GP wanted to protect his protege from Webber. I just don't buy it.

GP would have to be the most unprofessional and the worst GM ever. I don't think so.

Pedja would have to be the meanest little BP to ever walk this planet.

Vlade was gone. (Some of you will remember that the first time I posted on KF.com was to convey are rumour that I heard that Vlade was "removed" because of Webber. I don't believe it.)

And all together they would have to be more secretive then NSA to keep it quiet for noone to break ranks and speak out or leak believable details.

When examining the "why" of Webber trade, all I can come up with is that Maloofs and/or GP did not want to pay him the dough they owed him. They were somehow able to justify it to themselves that Webber has not earned that money already and that they cannot pay him 20 mil and as evidenced by the trade they were going to take anything in return. Spare parts on bad contracts.

That's what I think it was all about: Money.

I feel very uncomfortable when we are implicating current and past players in backstabbing ploys against each other and Webber in particular.

I agree this whole thread has gotten ugly... very ugly and Im looking at the edited version. Alot of venom being spewed by just about everybody. Hell even Mods. Too much hatorade and kool-aid I suspect. Lay off it. Its bad for you. I pictured many of you sitting typing furiously cussing at the screen with spit flying out of your mouths

Must be all that sugar.

I agree that we'd have a better record with Webb. Maybe 3-4 games. But I think its a fairly open debate whether Webb would have the same impact here as he is in Philly. He has more athleticism and talent around him then he has here. And he just happens to the 2nd fiddle behind one of the top 5 players in the league. Thats certainly has to make him better?!

He'd be our horse here. Theres no way we can know how bad we would be. It all a big assumption(And you know what they say about assuming) if we'd be .500 or even worse then we are now. Who knows if SAR would have signed if we had webb. But we will never know.

JUst like we may never know the "true reason" why the trade happened. Hell I thought Peja was going like alot of Kings fans.

 

[acisking]

If only he was as durable as Peja... we could have kept him. Oh well.

quote of the year

 

[kixrox]

I honestly don't know what's true and what's not. I just know this all leaves me with a very bad feeling in the pit of my stomach. I wish ALL the drama would go away and we could just have our Kings back...

I wish we could trade Grant

 

[AleksandarN]

OK I have been reading this thread for awhile now. I was contemplating whether or not I should reply. But alot of things in this topic have not been covered. There seems to be two camps to this argument; the ones who thought Webber should not have been traded and the ones who think that trading Webber was the right thing to do. I fall in the later category. With that being said I was against the trade. Why, you might be asking (considering you are in flavor of trading him), simple we did not get anything in value in return. My thought process in this is why trade a guy when you get little or nothing in return. At the time the trade went we learned that his health was a MAJOR factor in Webber being traded. He did not train with the team or practiced with the team either last season because of the rest needed for his knee. No other team would touch him because of his health. So with all of that we still found a team that would take on Webber and his health what we got in return though is something else. That trade alone put us in the position we are today. That trade was terrible (no way around it). What I want to know is why trade him for the garbage we got in return? When the trade was announced I thought oh we Dalembert good, but when I found out the details I was dumb founded. Chris's history with the Kings is a very complex one and we may not know what happened for some time. This trade really undermined the position of many on this board(that trading Webber was the right thing to do). I was in support of Webber being moved but I could not support the trade because what we got back was garbage. Now we see Webber playing in Philly asking ourselves why did we give up on him. Well seeing what condition Webb's health I can see why but the trade itself does not rightly justify my position or other one this matter. Like I said before this trade was a wrong one because of the talent in return we got in the trade and contracts we got back.

P.S. I hope my incoherent thoughts make sense.

 

[John Galt]

You don't think getting three guys who, combined, with THREE starters injured - could not get as many minutes as Kevin Martin OR Francisco Garcia.... you don't think that was a good trade for CWebb?

You don't think three guys who combined tonight (remember with three starters out) for 42 minutes and 13 pts - for the exact same salary CWebb made - you don't think that was a good deal?

You're mad... mad I say.

But hey, flexible parts - all the better to... oh never mind.

 

[DocHolliday]

Webber is one wrong landing from ending his career. It could happen tomorrow or 4 years from now, but it can happen and the risk is hgh. I even spoke to the guy who manages the camera crew that does feeds every Kings game to sac. On the road and at home. He is around all the players and knows them personally. He said Webber was a great guy, but even he knows, and agrees, that Webber is one bad landing from being done. At 21 million this year, that's a high risk. Period. End of discussion.

 

[John Galt]

Webber is one bad landing from being done.

ok, ok. So you trade him for three guys who are already done. Are you ahead of the game?

 

[AleksandarN]

That took a chunk of it. But it was not all of it. Other than Peja pouting last year's team still had MUCH MUCH more chemistry and esprit d' corp than the current crew. And why? Webb + DC were still here.

Vlade was important, but my longstanding read on 03-04 was that he made a mistake, and that mistake was really what led to the collapse. Prior to 03-04 there was no split between Peja & Webb or Vlade & Webb. Webb was the #1, Peja the #2, and Vlade & Webb ran the legroom like a couple of parents. Set the tone. Only out here in fanland were there very aggressive Peja fans touting a split to get Webb "out of the way" of their hero.

But things began to get shaky when in the middle of the 03-04 year we first heard rumblings that Webb thought "some of his teammates did not think they needed him". Who would have thought it was Vlade of all people. Vlade created super-Peja as his last act for the Kings. It was his heart, his passion, translated through Peja's shooting stroke. And I think he wanted to leave a legacy for his Serbian "little brother". And then Webb came back, and he wasn't exactly feeling welcomed in all corners. And he felt threatened. And his response was to overreach. And Vlade, good ole Vlade, made the gravest of errors. He chose sides. Chose his creation over his partner in making the Kings the Kings. And that was it for chemistry. Webb and Doug teamed up one side, Vlade and Peja both started to quit. Mike was likely on the Webb side too but highly disrupted. Bobby had to watch from the bench. Brad & Darius must have been looking on and wondering what the hell happened, but of course Brad was struggling with injuries and had other concerns. Massenburg opened his ugly mouth. THAT was when chemsitry died. And yes it was Webb, but before that it was Vlade choosing sides that got the ball rolling. Peja is entirely too passive to be responsible for that kind of stuff. Need a powerful personality to bring about that kind of chaos. And you could hear the echoes of the broken Webb/Vlade partnership in both their comments throughout the summer. There was a nice moment early last year when Webb visited Vlade before a Lakers/Kings matchup and brouogh him a watch. Hope it patched a lot of that up. But too late for us of course. Vlade could NOT choose sides. Could not form a bloc opposed to the franchise player. He had to remain neutral. Had to be able to whisper in Webb's ear AND Peja's ear as a friend for us to keep the balance.

Going with your theory of events I have to ask. At that point in time, given Webber notorious health, was he really the same "franchise" player he was before? What Vlade felt (and alot of members of board felt) was that Chris was no longer that player and Webber being the person he was could not come to terms with it. That is when the chemistry went south. Vlade seeing what he probably knew what was coming tried to steer the team in a new direction. What happen and what cause the friction in IMHO was Webber ego and Rick mishandling of the situation that caused the down fall of the season. Just so I do not forget Pedja's injury and his personality(being a passive guy not want to cause conflict with Webber cause the friendship they had at the time thus losing his aggressiveness that helped him to a career season) did not help matters. Once Pedja lost his edge and aggressiveness he had, the season was lost. I think what caused the biggest rift in the team is when Webber openly criticized his teammates that season(Miller and Pedja) for not coming to his aid when he returned. I could see understand what Pedja was thinking "I took a back seat so he could fit in again and get adjusted and I get this?" I do not blame Vlade one bit in this situation I blame Chris the most that season and Pedja for him taking the back sit once Webber got back. Vlade made the right decision and Webber and Pedja did not.

 

[VF21]

Webber is one wrong landing from ending his career. It could happen tomorrow or 4 years from now, but it can happen and the risk is hgh.

So is LeBron James. So is Kobe Bryant. So is Tim Duncan. So is Shaquille O'Neal. So is Gerald Wallace. So is Rip Hamilton. Sensing a trend here?