Grant Napear wins Emperor's New Clothes award

[CaminoChaos]

I just want to point out that Webber gives up something like 22 or 23 points per game and is scoring only 19 points a game. So defensiveley we are not better. Offensively the rest of the team is struggling because he was so good in the pick and roll.

I personally agreed with the trade. I hated losing Matt Barnes and Webb but I think it does give us flexibility. Thomas is the only piece that we recieved that I would get rid of. Skinner and Corliss are solid backups and solid players if they get the time.

I think that the trade is not over. We are going to deal one or 2 of the Sixer 3 before to long.

Grant does kiss alot of butt now to the organization now that he has to here about it all day long. One thing is he is in major denial. Just about every lost(except blowouts) he always says "they play good except.......". He has an excuse every game. One game it's rebounding, the next it's turnovers, next it's to much one on one. No Grant, the Kings are just not very good.

 

[nbrans]

People who think we wouldn't have been better are defying the very recent history. As in last year.

Now, would we have ben a title contender? That's obviosuly very debateable. But we were FAR betgter just last year with Webber than we are now without. And he looks better physically this year than he did a year ago to boot.

This is an incomplete assessment. Last year the Kings started the season with Doug Christie plus Bobby Jackson and Maurice Evans (i.e. the Kings had a bench). Miller wasn't coming off a broken leg last season. Peja was healthy. There were many elements in place last year that aren't here now. It's more than a tad simplistic to say that Kings minus Webber = 14-20. Particularly when Philadelphia isn't better than they were last year, I'd say it's very very debatable how much effect losing Webber had on this years' record. Clearly some, but by no means all.

 

[bigbadred00]

I just want to point out that Webber gives up something like 22 or 23 points per game and is scoring only 19 points a game. So defensiveley we are not better. Offensively the rest of the team is struggling because he was so good in the pick and roll.

I personally agreed with the trade. I hated losing Matt Barnes and Webb but I think it does give us flexibility. Thomas is the only piece that we recieved that I would get rid of. Skinner and Corliss are solid backups and solid players if they get the time.

I think that the trade is not over. We are going to deal one or 2 of the Sixer 3 before to long.

Grant does kiss alot of butt now to the organization now that he has to here about it all day long. One thing is he is in major denial. Just about every lost(except blowouts) he always says "they play good except.......". He has an excuse every game. One game it's rebounding, the next it's turnovers, next it's to much one on one. No Grant, the Kings are just not very good.

Where did you get this?

I see his +/- on 82games is actually postive this year (+5.2). And yes he doesn't destroy his forward counterpart scoring but he also leads to buckets for other players with his assists (not as high as it was as a King). No Philly isn't great, but we are alot worse.

And it looks like this year, Webber has outscored his Forward Counterpart but not by much. I don't think the Problem is really Webber or his replacement SAR, I think our ineffectiveness is this year is coming from other defensive problems led by Brad and Bibby especially and the ineffectiveness of our Bench this year. On paper our bench seemed decent, but on court they have been terrible to say the least. Hart seemed decent in Charlotte but has been, how do you say it "awful" this year on court. Kenny when starting is pretty much as good as SAR, but when off the bench isn't "half the man" he is starting. Same with Skinner. Our bench and at times our starters look extremely lost.

As others have said, our team has no leader and misses it's leader. A team with no leader can't go very far in this league. All the good teams have some sort of leader that's vocal, Ben Wallace in Detroit, Tim Duncan quietly in the trenches, Dirk in Dallas, Lebron in Cleveland. Right now we're in trouble and I don't see it getting much better, sooner.

 

[Ryle]

Before the Webb trade we were 34-20. Since the Webb trade we have played sub .500 ball and are 30-32.....who really cares what Philly's record is I'm more worried about ours.

Unless one of these "tradeable" pieces we got in the deal is turned into a stud all star PF then the trade is bogus.

Also, the total combined owed to the 3 amigos(not including the team option for Skinners contract in the future) is about 42.6 million. The 2 years left after this year on Webb's deal is 43 million so I'm not really sure how this saved the Kings money.

 

[loopymitch]

Is this transcript online anywhere? It would be useful when I run out of toilet paper.

 

[Diabeticwonder]

There was a time last year after the Webb trade when Grant made some pretty insightful comments about the whole situation, which I believe were true. Grant was talking about how the team had struggled when Webb came back from the injury the season before and how the powers that be wanted him to take more time and to even come off the bench and get back into the swing of things a bit more slowly so as to not disrupt the success that we had without him. Grant said something to the effect that there is no way that would have ever gone over with Webb (coming off the bench; playing a supporting role, etc) and that had he been forced to do that then there would have been a temper tantrum the likes that we had never seen before. I think that was the beginning of the end for Webb's career here in Sac and that the success that we had with him out was ultimately what pushed him out the door eventhough the personnel of the team was totally differen at that time then at the time of the trade last year. Bottom line is that I believe a personality clash between Webb and the front office was the cause of his trade and that they took the first and only deal that came their way. Apparently they had been attempting to trade Webb since he came back from the injury and 12 or so months later Philly was the only one to take the bait.

 

[JJ22L]

Before the Webb trade we were 34-20. Since the Webb trade we have played sub .500 ball and are 30-32.....who really cares what Philly's record is I'm more worried about ours.

Unless one of these "tradeable" pieces we got in the deal is turned into a stud all star PF then the trade is bogus.

Also, the total combined owed to the 3 amigos(not including the team option for Skinners contract in the future) is about 42.6 million. The 2 years left after this year on Webb's deal is 43 million so I'm not really sure how this saved the Kings money.

THANK YOU!...i dont know about you but i care about the kings 1st and other teams second. The way the 6er's react to webber is going to be different then the effect he had here. Personally i care about his effect on the kings. A philly team that was sub 500 before the webber trade being 500ish now isn't a legit piece of evidence to say webber "sucks" now.

 

[piksi]

Is this transcript online anywhere? It would be useful when I run out of toilet paper.

make sure that the paper is soft enough

 

[BigWaxer]

We pay way to much attention to this Grant idiot. It seems these days the Bee and KHTK are filled with nothing but amateur reporters and writers.

All the good reporters/hosts always leave town for better things. Gee I wonder why.

 

[love_them_kings]

Before the Webb trade we were 34-20. Since the Webb trade we have played sub .500 ball and are 30-32.....who really cares what Philly's record is I'm more worried about ours.

.

yes! This is what I've been saying too! Who cares about Philly??? Webb doesn't fit into Philly the way he did here, and he will never have the impact on them that he had on the Kings. End of story. However, OUR team was much better with Webb here. Period.

People can argue points or +/- %, but the fact is, Webb brought a lot more to this team then stats can show. We used to have heart and leadership, and an identity. Where is that now?

Webb's trade is not the only reason our team is so much worse this year, but it is the biggest reason.

 

[ReinadelosReys]

Hmmm, wasn't around to listen--darn!

But in any case, I think Grant has been reading too much AV. Say it enough times, you try to believe its true. But a few points on this:

-If during this tirade Grant said or alluded to Peja being happier because of Chris being gone, what a bunch of bleep when Grant himself said on numerous occasions in the beginning of last season just prior to the trade itself, that all the rumors and talk of the two of them not getting along is hogwash. He even went as far as to name occasions where he'd walk into the training room and the two of them were laughing it up and that there were no ill feelings between them and they got along just fine. Yeah Grant, who's talking out of both sides of their mouth now?

-Saying that while this trade might not have been good, it was necessary is like saying well a flood or tornado came around and destroyed my home, but it was a piece of crap anyway so it was necessary.

-How elementary and fallacious is the "argument" that the other guys is doing worse? Well, we're not doing good....but, but--Philly isn't good either! Yea, lets do a round of debate with that reasoning

 

[kupman]

Get off Grant's case. The Webber trade did need to happen. He had a giant contract on a bad knee and was not playing well. Before Webber came back from his knee injury we had the best record in the league and with his return we started to take a nose dive. Plus, it is pretty easy to think that you you know better than GP when you have the advatage of hindsight.

 

[love_them_kings]

Plus, it is pretty easy to think that you you know better than GP when you have the advatage of hindsight.

if you look back to Feb of last year, you will see that many of us hated this trade at the time. Hindsight may have made it even clearer, but many of us were not on board with this trade from day 1.

and, just for the record, Webb was player of the month the month before he was traded.

 

[Bricklayer]

Get off Grant's case. The Webber trade did need to happen. He had a giant contract on a bad knee and was not playing well. Before Webber came back from his knee injury we had the best record in the league and with his return we started to take a nose dive. Plus, it is pretty easy to think that you you know better than GP when you have the advatage of hindsight.

Hindsight my *** -- there were a great MANY of us who knew instantly.

And Webber was not playing well = were you on vacation all last year? Maybe this year too? Stop watching at the end of 03-04 and just decide to regrace us with your presence now? Webber "not playing well" was merely 20-10-5 for us. Just as Webber not playing well in Philly is merely 20-10-3.

 

[twocents]

webber was not a good leader; he let his mouth run with no substantial backing up. he divided the kings into two: those who are with him and those who were against him. he openly criticized his teammates whereas he should have taken care of those problems as a fine leader would (in the lockerroom, away from the media).

webber was getting old; so were bobby jackson, doug christie. vlade already was. it is simply pathetic to want webber here just to have a respectable record with absolutely no hope for the future. if the performance of this season with respect to previous ones is a thud; had the kings kept webber, would have been much worse deafening, heartbreaking, oh so sad, thud.

 

[Padrino]

webber was not a good leader; he let his mouth run with no substantial backing up. he divided the kings into two: those who are with him and those who were against him. he openly criticized his teammates whereas he should have taken care of those problems as a fine leader would (in the lockerroom, away from the media).

webber was getting old; so were bobby jackson, doug christie. vlade already was. it is simply pathetic to want webber here just to have a respectable record with absolutely no hope for the future. if the performance of this season with respect to previous ones is a thud; had the kings kept webber, would have been much worse deafening, heartbreaking, oh so sad, thud.

you really aren't acquainted with kings history other than, say, the past 2-3 years. that's my guess. and it's ludicrous to say that, had the kings kept webber, they would be worse off than their current 14-20, as if it wasn't heartbreaking enough to trade him away for chump change and end up in the cellar of the pacifc division.

 

[Kingsgurl]

Just as an aside, the 'not playing well' Webber was the reigning NBA player of the week when the trade went down.

 

[twocents]

you really aren't acquainted with kings history other than, say, the past 2-3 years. that's my guess. and it's ludicrous to say that, had the kings kept webber, they would be worse off than their current 14-20, as if it wasn't heartbreaking enough to trade him away for chump change and end up in the cellar of the pacifc division.

i did not say that they would be worse "this year". i said when webber retired (edit: i noticed now that i actually skipped that part in my post; thought i had it up there) they would find themselves at a much worse spot than they are this year.

plus this argument has got nothing to do with the kings history, be it recent or old.

 

[uolj]

Just as an aside, the 'not playing well' Webber was the reigning NBA player of the week when the trade went down.

Reigning player of the month.

 

[RoyalDiva]

It would be nice if the people who supported the Webber trade weren't attacked (and that includes personal attacks) every time they state their opinions. It's possible to respectfully disagree.

 

[Padrino]

i did not say that they would be worse "this year". i said when webber retired (edit: i noticed now that i actually skipped that part in my post; thought i had it up there) they would find themselves at a much worse spot than they are this year.

plus this argument has got nothing to do with the kings history, be it recent or old.

you mentioned nothing about webb "retiring," and even if webber had retired in sac, how would it be a bad thing that a huge ending contract comes off the kings payroll? considering webb's got one of the highest salaries in the league (edit: second highest), we're talking major cap relief. that said, the kings could have been a major player in the free agent market in a coupla years. instead, though, we're holding onto "flexible" contracts that will come off the books intermittently for the next four years. kenny thomas' contract extends past webber's, for goodness sakes! insted of getting a TON of cap relief when webb's contract expires, we'll get minor relief from skinner's and williamson's contracts when they're up, but we'll still be holding onto thomas' albatross of a contract (and if anybody actually believes we can move either thomas or williamson for substantial talent, they're crazy). the point is, it would have been more pertinent in the long term to hold onto webb's contract. you wanna talk about the future, i'm talkin about the future. it looks pretty bleak to me, with peja's value dropping as i type, with webber playing well and healthy, and with all 3 of the kings "flexible" contracts still sitting on the bench.

 

[Kingsgurl]

i did not say that they would be worse "this year". i said when webber retired (edit: i noticed now that i actually skipped that part in my post; thought i had it up there) they would find themselves at a much worse spot than they are this year.

plus this argument has got nothing to do with the kings history, be it recent or old.

You mean when all that salary came off our books? How horrible.

As for bolded portion #2, is that even freaking possible??????

 

[VF21]

webber was not a good leader; he let his mouth run with no substantial backing up. he divided the kings into two: those who are with him and those who were against him. he openly criticized his teammates whereas he should have taken care of those problems as a fine leader would (in the lockerroom, away from the media).

Wrong!

Webber did NOT openly criticize his teammates. He ranted on the plane on the way back from Minnesota. And who was on the plane? MEDIA people who thought it was their bound duty to spread Webb's comments all over the place. Saying something in a press conference is one thing, but saying something in a closed environment 30,000 ft. in the air would lend one to believe they were speaking privately.

As far as the bullbleep about dividing the team in two, that's rhetoric without basis in fact. What you had was Webber AND a pretty good majority of the team on one side and maybe TWO team members whose feathers got ruffled on the other side. Why? Because maybe, just maybe, the shoe fit and they didn't want to wear it.

Chris Webber bore the brunt of a lot of misguided hatred because he came out and said to his teammates what a LOT of us were saying on this and pretty much every other Kings message board on the planet.

 

[Bricklayer]

i did not say that they would be worse "this year". i said when webber retired (edit: i noticed now that i actually skipped that part in my post; thought i had it up there) they would find themselves at a much worse spot than they are this year.

plus this argument has got nothing to do with the kings history, be it recent or old.

Well if we weren't going to be worse last year, and we weren't going to be worse this year, we are rapidly running out of years to be worse in.

You are aware are you not that they are only two more years left on that Webber deal? That at the end of next year he will be a giant ending contract you can either hold onto to wipe out 1/2 your cap at once, ro trade to some other team trying to do the same?

Meanwhile we have neither the product on the court, nor cap room, nor pieces anybody wants to give us anything for. Sweet deal.

 

[bigbadred00]

Wrong!

Webber did NOT openly criticize his teammates. He ranted on the plane on the way back from Minnesota. And who was on the plane? MEDIA people who thought it was their bound duty to spread Webb's comments all over the place. Saying something in a press conference is one thing, but saying something in a closed environment 30,000 ft. in the air would lend one to believe they were speaking privately.

As far as the bullbleep about dividing the team in two, that's rhetoric without basis in fact. What you had was Webber AND a pretty good majority of the team on one side and maybe TWO team members whose feathers got ruffled on the other side. Why? Because maybe, just maybe, the shoe fit and they didn't want to wear it.

Chris Webber bore the brunt of a lot of misguided hatred because he came out and said to his teammates what a LOT of us were saying on this and pretty much every other Kings message board on the planet.

I'm not saying Webber is on the same planet as MJ, but big time leaders have in the past criticized their teammates. MJ actively criticized the ineffective play of Kwame Brown during his stay in Washington. Kobe actively criticizes his teammates now and when Shaq was there. TD, I think is an exception rather than the rule when it comes to teammates. And we all know about Shaq towards Kobe. Webber might not have the titles like all these other players had with titles but he did have a lot of success taking bottom feeding franchises from nothing to having a meaning in the league (GS, Washingon and Sacto). Same can not be said for all but MJ who struggled to start his career with wins. Kobe and TD were borne into outstanding Franchises. Shaq was lucky to join a franchise with two straight #1 picks. Webber was unlucky to be traded on draft day to the Hell Hole known as the Warriors back in the day.

The Warriors havent had more than 40 wins in a season since the Trade.

Chris Joined a crappy Washington team and within 3 years they went from 24 wins to 42 wins (not that great of a change but an accomplishment for a struggling franchise which didn't make it back to the playoffs until last year).

And of course on the Kings, where we went from pretenders with the greatest fans in the world to contenders who were 1 free throw missed in regulation away from a title.

It might not all be his doing, but I'm sure his contributions can't be missed. We haven't won a playoff series without the guy in Sacremento (think I'm right). And it looks to be a while until we repeat that performance. Getting a player of his stature in the NBA is a tough task. WE were lucky to even get him for basically nothing. Now we look like we got nothing in return and wouldnt' be suprised for thge teams return to the great fans, horrible team phase unless Petrie shows some sort of genius in the coming seasons. The team does not resemble any team I can remember of the last 6 seasons. Everyone is gone and is a shell of what it was. Can Petrie revive the team, I hope. But like my other favorite team, the 9ers, I guess I have to be patient.

 

[piksi]

we are rapidly running out of years to be worse in.

it is a long way to eternity

 

[kupman]

Go back and see what the Kings record was before and after Webber's return from the injury the year before we traded him. The Kings were playing really well without him. However, the big factor was his giant contract with a bad knee. It was a gamble and I think it was smart on GP's part given that many player's are never the same after that type of injury. This season is not abou the loss of Chris Webber - we are not very good without him and probably would not be very good with him.

 

[twocents]

Well if we weren't going to be worse last year, and we weren't going to be worse this year, we are rapidly running out of years to be worse in.

You are aware are you not that they are only two more years left on that Webber deal? That at the end of next year he will be a giant ending contract you can either hold onto to wipe out 1/2 your cap at once, ro trade to some other team trying to do the same?

Meanwhile we have neither the product on the court, nor cap room, nor pieces anybody wants to give us anything for. Sweet deal.

let me put it this way:
1. webber had to be dealt with if the kings wanted to stay competitive.
2. petrie apparently thought the "big three" was enough to keep the kings competitive and tried to address the biggest deficiency of the team : defense.
3. he seems to have completely screwed up in the deal for webber. but that does not imply that "any deal" sending out webber for pieces that adelman would really use was uncoditionally bad. petrie, probably reasonably, expected skinner and thomas to form a webber of old: one that can shoot and rebound and be an intimidating force inside (sort of). that did not happen; that is a big problem.
4. trading webber meant losing the spirit of the kings because he was the leader is a proposition i call utterly detached from reality. the spirit was gone with the departure of vlade. if you remember, at the time, webber publicly stated that the times "happy go lucky" were over and he and his gang (he cited jackson, jj and bibby if my memory serves me right) would change how things were run around.

 

[twocents]

Wrong!

Webber did NOT openly criticize his teammates. He ranted on the plane on the way back from Minnesota. And who was on the plane? MEDIA people who thought it was their bound duty to spread Webb's comments all over the place. Saying something in a press conference is one thing, but saying something in a closed environment 30,000 ft. in the air would lend one to believe they were speaking privately.

As far as the bullbleep about dividing the team in two, that's rhetoric without basis in fact. What you had was Webber AND a pretty good majority of the team on one side and maybe TWO team members whose feathers got ruffled on the other side. Why? Because maybe, just maybe, the shoe fit and they didn't want to wear it.

Chris Webber bore the brunt of a lot of misguided hatred because he came out and said to his teammates what a LOT of us were saying on this and pretty much every other Kings message board on the planet.

he did not openly criticize but criticized them in front of media people, who are well known for their secrecy, right? please.

just for preemption, i am not defending peja here. i am just saying that webber was not cut out to be a leader; he never was one. vlade was the leader, the moment he was gone, the process of dismantling started.

 

[Bricklayer]

Go back and see what the Kings record was before and after Webber's return from the injury the year before we traded him. The Kings were playing really well without him. However, the big factor was his giant contract with a bad knee. It was a gamble and I think it was smart on GP's part given that many player's are never the same after that type of injury. This season is not abou the loss of Chris Webber - we are not very good without him and probably would not be very good with him.

And again -- where were you LAST year?

Because you are missing something and going back to the final 30 games of 03-04 for evidence is more than a little ridiculous.

We were 32-20 at the pont Mr. Webber was traded last year, and 03-04 has absolutley nothign to do with it. Meanwhile we are 14-20 this year. So so long as we go on a wonderful 18-0 win streak right now, you'll have a leg to stand on.

Meanwhile BTW, the ONLY major player on our roster who might have wanted him gone is having a worse year than ever. Webb is winning more than we are. And he's played in more games while putting up bigger numbers than his replacement at PF (no dig at SAR, just a fact).