[DEN/NYK] Brawl in the Garden

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#91
I will have to wonder if you guys will still cry about sportmanship if the Kings were beating the Lakers in L.A. by that margin but Musselman leaving his starters because they need to gel, and he wanted to make a statement to his team that they can do this to the Lakers.
I'd be pissed at Musselman for leaving the starters in to risk potential injury, but not for poor sportsmanship.

Let the end-of-the-benchers show the Lakers up; then, if they get flagrantly fouled, who cares? As I recall, very few people made a big deal out of Pat Burke lighting us up in Phoenix a couple of weeks ago.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#92
I'd be pissed at Musselman for leaving the starters in to risk potential injury, but not for poor sportsmanship.

Let the end-of-the-benchers show the Lakers up; then, if they get flagrantly fouled, who cares?
And if a brawl develops, at least we won't be looking forward to watching a starting five of Douby, Hart, Cisco, Taylor and Vitaly...

;)
 

Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
#93
So basically you're saying Karl was trying to teach the Knicks a lesson? Sorry, but that's the only way your comments make any sense at all to me...

You're right. We'll agree that we disagree and since I actually did agree with you earlier I think it's better this way.

:p
I think I read some speculation in a newspaper article or something he was doing exactly that for their "treatment" of his friend, a certain Mr. Larry Brown. Something to think about. He was doing his personal best to embarass the franchise (Knicks, that is), as if they really needed any....
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#94
If that's true, he's an even bigger __________________ (insert derogatory term of your choice) than I previously thought.

And what did this attempt to teach the Knicks a lesson do? Well, it's not the Knicks starters who may be sitting out a bunch of games.

If that rumor is, in fact, true I certainly hope the Denver owner has a nice, long talk with Mr. Karl about his priorities.
 
#95
See a pattern?

As the losses have mounted, Thomas has occasionally lashed out at opponents and the Knicks’ fans. On Nov. 4, Thomas criticized the Indiana Pacers for celebrating too much in the final minutes of a victory in the Knicks’ home opener. The following week, Thomas took issue with Bruce Bowen of the San Antonio Spurs, accusing him of dangerous defensive tactics that led to a sprained ankle by the Knicks’ Steve Francis. When the teams played again that week, and Bowen used the same tactic, Thomas had to be restrained from going after him. Thomas was also heard shouting to his players to “Break his feet,” referring to Bowen. Eight days later, Thomas was ejected from a home game against Boston for yelling at the referees.

about Melo-Isiah before the brawl:

With 1 minute 32 seconds left, the MSG broadcast focused on Thomas while Denver’s Marcus Camby shot free throws. The Nuggets were leading by 117-100. Thomas, standing on the sideline, his arms folded and his jaw tight, bites his lip and starts talking to a Nuggets player. The player is not in the camera shot, but the broadcaster Mike Breen notes that Thomas is talking to Anthony.

There is no audio of Thomas, but in the video he appears to say: “Hey, don’t go to the basket right now. It wouldn’t be a good idea.” Seconds later, Thomas cocks his head, holds out his right palm and, with a slight smile, adds, “Just letting you know.”

From here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/18/sports/basketball/18knicks.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=sports
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#96
The thing is, Elise, that it's not about Isiah Thomas, at least not to me. I know the type of person Thomas is - I remember the Detroit Bad Boys all too well.

It's about George Karl and his error in judgment, to say the least. IF he had pulled his starters, none of the subsequent actions would most likely have taken place. It's almost "The Butterfly Effect"...
 
#97
I'm not leaving George off the hook for him leaving them in the game...although it should be noted here:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2700761
Karl had just dispatched three players to the scorer's table to check in while the Knicks brought the ball up the floor. But before play stopped so they could check in, New York turned it over, starting Smith's fast break.
He was trying to take them out but the play that caused the brawl just happened to happen first ;)
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#99
Just announced:

  • $500K fine per organization
  • Carmelo Anthony - 15 games
  • Nate Robinson - 10 Games
  • JR Smith - 10 games
  • Mardy Collins - 6 games
  • Jared Jeffries - 4 games
  • Jerome James - 1 game
  • Nene Hilario - 1 game

Heard it on Cold Pizza, no link as yet.
 
15 for Melo......that is going to kill the chicken nuggets(should be there new name since they have a habit of throwing a punch and then running away).
 
Link

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2701228

NEW YORK -- NBA scoring leader Carmelo Anthony was suspended for 15 games Monday -- the sixth longest in league history for an on-court incident -- and six other players were penalized as commissioner David Stern came down hard on both teams after the Nuggets and Knicks brawled at Madison Square Garden.

Nate Robinson and J.R. Smith each got 10 games, and four other players also were suspended. Stern fined each organization $500,000. But there was no separate penalty for Knicks coach Isiah Thomas, which drew the ire of Denver coach George Karl. It was Thomas who had warned Anthony not to go into the lane before the mayhem started Saturday night.

It was the NBA's scariest scene since the brawl between Pacers players and Pistons fans two years ago. The league is still recovering from that episode, and Stern made it clear the players must learn to control themselves.

"We're going to go after the players who aren't able to stop," he said during a conference call. "We have set up the goal of eliminating fighting from our game. We haven't eliminated it completely."

Mardy Collins, whose hard foul on Smith sparked the fighting, was suspended six games and Knicks teammate Jared Jeffries will miss four. Also, the Knicks' Jerome James and Denver's Nene were both penalized one game for leaving the bench area during the chaos.

Nuggets, Knicks Suspensions
DENVER
Player Games
Carmelo Anthony 15
Eligible to return: Jan. 20 at Houston
J.R. Smith 10
Eligible to return: Jan. 8 vs. Milwaukee
Nene 1
Eligible to return: Dec. 20 vs. Milwaukee
NEW YORK
Player Games
Nate Robinson 10
Eligible to return: Jan. 10 vs. Phila.
Mardy Collins 6
Eligible to return: Dec. 31 at Clippers
Jared Jeffries 4
Eligible to return: Dec. 27 vs. Detroit
Jerome James 1
Eligible to return: Dec. 20 vs. Charlotte

Per the NBA Collective Bargaining Agreement, Anthony has the right to attempt to get his 15-game suspension lessened through arbitration because it is longer than 12 games. So far, Anthony hasn't announced whether he will try to do this. Regardless, Anthony's suspension begins immediately, starting with Monday night's home game with the Wizards.

For example, after the Pacers-Pistons brawl, an arbitrator lessened Jermaine O'Neal's suspension from 25 to 15 games.

Ten players were ejected after Saturday night's fight, which started with 1:15 left in Denver's 123-100 victory. It was the NBA's scariest scene since the brawl between Pacers players and Pistons fans in Detroit two years ago.

The punishments were announced before both teams were to play Monday night -- New York at home against Utah; Denver at home against Washington.

"I was very disappointed," Stern said. "Clearly, we're not getting through or players in certain circumstances just don't want to be restrained. I would suggest that those players will not have long careers in the NBA."

Stern was especially troubled by the fight between Robinson and Smith that spilled into the stands.

"My concern is actually for the safety of the players and the fans, and when things get out of hand you cannot predict or project where they're going to go," Stern said. "There were certain players who weren't going to allow themselves to be calmed."

There was speculation Thomas would be penalized for his comments to Anthony. Stern acknowledged hearing about it, but said he relied only on "definitive information" when handing out punishments.

But he was clearly annoyed by remarks from Thomas and the Knicks after the game that the problems were caused by the Nuggets still having four starters on the floor late in a blowout. And the fine showed he wants teams to be serious in helping him clean up the game.

"It's a more general message that I'm going to start holding our teams accountable," he said.

In Denver, Karl was irate with Thomas, who said Monday that Karl put his players in danger by leaving them on the floor too long. Karl accused Thomas of a "premeditated" act, underscoring his disgust with the New York coach with expletives.

"It was directed by Isiah," he said during a shootaround. "I think his actions after the game were despicable. He made a bad situation worse. I'll swear on my children's life that I never thought about running up the score. I wanted to get a big win on the road."

"My team has had trouble holding leads at the end of games," he added. "I didn't want the score to get under 10 points because if it would've gotten under 10 points it would've had a negative feeling on my team."

Collins prevented Smith from an easy basket by grabbing him by the neck and taking him to the floor. Smith rose and immediately started jawing with Collins, and Robinson jumped in to pull Smith away. Anthony shoved Robinson away, and Robinson and Smith then tumbled into the front row while fighting.

Just as things appeared to be calming down, Anthony threw a hard punch that floored Collins, and New York's Jared Jeffries sprinted from the baseline toward halfcourt in an effort to get at Anthony, but was tackled by a Denver player.

By the time security had finally contained Smith, they were nearly at the opposite end of the court from where the fighting started.

"I was very disappointed," Stern said. "Clearly, we're not getting through or players in certain circumstances just don't want to be restrained. I would suggest that those players will not have long careers in the NBA."

Stern also made it clear he was annoyed by comments from Thomas and the Knicks that the problems were caused by the Nuggets still having four starters on the floor late in a blowout. The commissioner said the only response is to say "nothing, or B, this is not something of which we can be proud or condone. That's not what we're about and that's not the example that we're setting."

Information from The Associated Press and ESPN.com's Marc Stein was used in this report.
 
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Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
If that's true, he's an even bigger __________________ (insert derogatory term of your choice) than I previously thought.

And what did this attempt to teach the Knicks a lesson do? Well, it's not the Knicks starters who may be sitting out a bunch of games.

If that rumor is, in fact, true I certainly hope the Denver owner has a nice, long talk with Mr. Karl about his priorities.

Ah, here it is:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=261216018

"I feel bad for the league, I feel bad for the Denver Nuggets and the New York Knicks," Nuggets coach George Karl said. "Very poor display of respecting basketball and respecting the game in the best place in the world to play basketball."

There had previously been some bad blood between Karl and Knicks coach Isiah Thomas over the handling of the Larry Brown firing. Karl and Brown are close friends.


But Karl wouldn't talk about why he had his starters on the floor late in a blowout, in the closing minutes of a back-to-back that closed a five-game road trip.
 
15 for Melo......that is going to kill the chicken nuggets...
I couldn't believe it when I saw Anthony throw a punch and then run away! I will always remember that and, unfortunately for him, so will a lot of people.

Being a Kings fan, and now an Artest fan, I can't believe how out-of-line these fines are with what they did to Artest. But, the NBA even admits that
they factor other things into their penalties and so they aren't supposed to be unbiased penalties.

Overall, though, the Knicks and Nuggets got off a lot lighter than I was expecting.

Is it true that Karl had garbage-time players waiting to check in?
 
I know that MANY (if not almost all) will disagree with me, but those suspnsions are absolute and utter moronic nonsense (in my always humble opinion)

15 friking games! Give me a break.
 
Just from my own (non-professional) experience in competitive sports, I realize that there can be a short jump to pushing and shoving. But throwing a punch takes a full-step into the 'I'm out of control' zone. I think the NBA should recognize the significant difference between the two actions and make throwing a punch an auto 'out for the season' penalty.
 
Is it true that Karl had garbage-time players waiting to check in?
I'm just curious with this question and don't mean to imply that I think George Karl is/was responsible for the brawl. Feeling disrespected from a blow-out is no excuse - even for the Knicks.

If anything, I think Stern was chicken-sh__ for not fining Thomas.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Well, given that I might have thugged a Nugget myself if I were the Knicks that night, I really didn't have a problem up to that point. That was bad sportsmanship to say the least by Karl, so screw him and his team if I'm the Knicks. Now on the other hand grabbing the guy around the neck was a bit much, Nate Robinson has absolutely no excuse for being anything but a little short tempered jackass with the brain of a jack russel terrier (actually thought he might well have been the worst of all), and Melo...what a complete bleeping idiot.

As an aside, check out the average age of the combatants. Not braniacs either. Young & dumb and this can happen.
 

Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
And it goes on....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,237217,00.html

NEW YORK — Denver Nuggets coach George Karl used a mouthful of expletives to describe Isiah Thomas Monday after the NBA failed to penalize the New York Knicks coach for his part in the court brawl that erupted between the two teams.
Reacting to suspensions of three of his top players by the NBA league office, Karl referred to Thomas as being "... full of [expletive], he's a total [expletive] who should be held accountable for what his actions were."
The Nuggets allege Thomas called on one of his players to commit the flagrant foul which started the brawl at Madison Square Garden Saturday night.
NBA scoring leader Carmelo Anthony was suspended for 15 games and six other players were penalized as NBA commissioner David Stern came down hard on both teams for the fighting.
Nate Robinson and J.R. Smith each got 10 games, and four other players also were suspended. Stern fined each organization $500,000. But there was no separate penalty for Thomas, who had warned Anthony not to go into the lane before the mayhem started.
It was the NBA's scariest scene since the brawl between Pacers players and Pistons fans two years ago. The league is still recovering from that episode, and Stern made it clear the players must learn to control themselves.
"We're going to go after the players who aren't able to stop," he said during a conference call. "We have set up the goal of eliminating fighting from our game. We haven't eliminated it completely."
Anthony's suspension was the sixth longest in NBA history. Mardy Collins, whose hard foul on Smith sparked the fighting, was suspended six games and Knicks teammate Jared Jeffries will miss four. Also, the Knicks' Jerome James and Denver's Nene were both penalized one game for leaving the bench area during the chaos.
Ten players were ejected after the fight, which started with 1:15 left in Denver's 123-100 victory. The punishments were announced before both teams were to play Monday night — New York at home against Utah; Denver at home against Washington.
"I was very disappointed," Stern said. "Clearly, we're not getting through or players in certain circumstances just don't want to be restrained. I would suggest that those players will not have long careers in the NBA."
Stern was especially troubled by the fight between Robinson and Smith that spilled into the stands.
"My concern is actually for the safety of the players and the fans, and when things get out of hand you cannot predict or project where they're going to go," Stern said. "There were certain players who weren't going to allow themselves to be calmed."
There was speculation Thomas would be penalized for his comments to Anthony. Stern acknowledged hearing about it, but said he relied only on "definitive information" when handing out punishments.
But he was clearly annoyed by remarks from Thomas and the Knicks after the game that the problems were caused by the Nuggets still having four starters on the floor late in a blowout. And the fine showed he wants teams to be serious in helping him clean up the game.
"It's a more general message that I'm going to start holding our teams accountable," he said.
Collins prevented Smith from an easy basket by grabbing him by the neck and taking him to the floor. Smith rose and immediately started jawing with Collins, and Robinson jumped in to pull Smith away. Anthony shoved Robinson away, and Robinson and Smith then tumbled into the front row while fighting.
Just as things appeared to be calming down, Anthony threw a hard punch that floored Collins, and Jeffries sprinted from the baseline toward halfcourt in an effort to get at Anthony, but was tackled by a Denver player.
By the time security had finally contained Smith, they were nearly at the opposite end of the court from where the fighting started.
Before Stern talked, the Knicks held their morning shootaround, where Thomas didn't back away from the Knicks' postgame assertions that some of the problems were caused by Denver coach George Karl leaving his starters on the floor too long in a blowout.
"I can't speak for him, but he put his players in a tough position," Thomas said. "I think he put his players in a very bad position."
In Denver, Karl was irate with Thomas. Karl accused Thomas of a "premeditated" act, underscoring his disgust with the New York coach with expletives.
"It was directed by Isiah," he said during a shootaround. "I think his actions after the game were despicable. He made a bad situation worse. I'll swear on my children's life that I never thought about running up the score. I wanted to get a big win on the road."
"My team has had trouble holding leads at the end of games," he added. "I didn't want the score to get under 10 points because if it would've gotten under 10 points it would've had a negative feeling on my team."
Karl has bigger problems now. He'll be without Anthony until the Nuggets' game at Houston on Jan. 20, and Smith will be gone until Jan. 8. That duo combines for more than 48 points a game.
"It's going to be tough," said Nuggets center Marcus Camby, one of the five players ejected who wasn't suspended. "It's already tough being in the Western Conference, and missing guys like J.R. and Carmelo is going to make it even worse."
Anthony's conduct represents a big blow to the player, team and league. He starred as a captain on the U.S. team at the world championships this summer, and had been getting more marketing opportunities as one of the league's brightest young stars.
Stern took none of that into account when issuing his decision.
"We judged him on his actions on the court, period," Stern said. "And they deserved a harsh penalty."
FOX News' Denis King and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
 
My mockery of the "BS war" aside, I agree with Lamar_Odom: if you don't want to have the score run up on you, play defense. I might be concerned with sportsmanship if this were the Olympics or college, but these guys are paid athletes, so I don't exactly consider sportsmanship to be paramount.
wow..put in the money and take out the sportsmanship.

BS.
 
Its easy to say a team should play defense if it doesn't want to be humiliated. Sometimes one team is just way over the level of another team.

As to sportsmanship not mattering much in pro sports. Maybe it doesn't, altho I think there are plenty of players and coaches who practice sportsmanship, including not humiliating a team when you've got them KO'd.

To me "sportsmanship" is just another word for respect, for yourself and for others. Anybody who thinks respect doesn't matter, because they have money, celebrity or both should be ashamed of themselves.
 
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Before Stern talked, the Knicks held their morning shootaround, where Thomas didn't back away from the Knicks' postgame assertions that some of the problems were caused by Denver coach George Karl leaving his starters on the floor too long in a blowout.
"I can't speak for him, but he put his players in a tough position," Thomas said. "I think he put his players in a very bad position."
I guess you really can be that stupid to honestly think that. So much for accountability.


In Denver, Karl was irate with Thomas. Karl accused Thomas of a "premeditated" act, underscoring his disgust with the New York coach with expletives.
"It was directed by Isiah," he said during a shootaround. "I think his actions after the game were despicable. He made a bad situation worse. I'll swear on my children's life that I never thought about running up the score. I wanted to get a big win on the road."
"My team has had trouble holding leads at the end of games," he added. "I didn't want the score to get under 10 points because if it would've gotten under 10 points it would've had a negative feeling on my team."
I don't think a win vs the Knicks qualifies as "big"
In the clip they showed on Sportscenter he referred to Utah blowing their 12pt lead with about 4 minutes left to the Kings.

For jcassio:
Elise10 said:
Karl had just dispatched three players to the scorer's table to check in while the Knicks brought the ball up the floor. But before play stopped so they could check in, New York turned it over, starting Smith's fast break.
 
I'm getting the idea that some people think that you don't have to be responsible for your own actions if it's in response to someone being unsportsmanlike. There is NO excuse for an NBA player losing control and trying to hurt someone. No matter what may have prompted such behavior, it is not an acceptable excuse.
 
I'm getting the idea that some people think that you don't have to be responsible for your own actions if it's in response to someone being unsportsmanlike. There is NO excuse for an NBA player losing control and trying to hurt someone. No matter what may have prompted such behavior, it is not an acceptable excuse.
There's is no excuse for any adult to lose control of themselves and consequently hurt someone.