CAVE people: A question
- Thread starter NoBonus
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Circa_1985_Fan
All-Star
CAVE: Citizens Against Virtually Everything
Similar to NIMBY: Not In My Back Yard!
Similar to NIMBY: Not In My Back Yard!
NoBonus
Starter
Thanks! One thing, though, I sure will miss watching them try to formulate their weird CAVE arguments at council meetings. Their arguments are so bad that their, shall we call them "performances", are very entertaining and funny to watch... you almost feel bad for them, but not really. Seems like it could be turned into a reality TV show...
K
Kingsguy881
Guest
I just assumed it was citizens against venues of entertainment. My bad...
Ryan
I like turtles
I'm on it.
However, to call people who oppose the new arena citizens against virtually everything, though convenient, is just not true or fair. I favor the new arena but I'm not sure my wife does. Many of her friends, my friends, too, don't favor it for several good and bad reasons. Don't like the ridiculous wealth of professional atheletes, don't think spending scarce money on such a thing now when so many other good public things are being neglected, don't like mayhor Johnson and some of his past track record, don't see a reason to make rich owners richer with public funds, don't like the "cavaler" attitude displayed by some long time activists in favor of the arena, etc., etc. I can't help but agree with many of their concerns but in the end I'm in favor and think it a useful thing for Sacramento to do with public money, and then there is my personal bias - I'm a long time NBA fan and a Kings fan and season ticket holder since the beginning.
It's OK to disagree with these folks but it's not fair to DIS them or throw them all in the same bucket. Also I would hope that some would sway our way when push comes to shove. And besides I live with them and like them.
It's OK to disagree with these folks but it's not fair to DIS them or throw them all in the same bucket. Also I would hope that some would sway our way when push comes to shove. And besides I live with them and like them.
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NoBonus
Starter
I am not dissing all of them, but, if you really look at the economics of this... it is Sacramento and the Sacramento workforce that this basically saves from a catastrophe should the Kings leave town.
Do the rich get richer (I am assuming you are meaing the Maloofs) Sure, but last time I checked, they also employed people with their money.
Players make a lot of money, but they also spend a lot of money and a large portion of that spending is in Sacramento.
As far as what a town should do with scarce money, take this example: Say you had $100 to your name. With that $100, you can buy a week's worth of food, some work clothes and a cheap bike OR you can spend it all on one month's worth of food. If you invest in yourself and buy work clothes and a cheap bike, you can get to work and, by the end of the week, earn enough money for the next week plus a little extra. This is survival. In the other option you starve to death in 40 days. This is what Sacramento is doing... things are bad, money is tight, without investing in Sacramento, Sacramento is going to die.
As far as a cavalier attitude goes, KJ managed to steal one year by grace alone. In this year, he had to come up with a plan to build an arena... he may be cavalier, but if he wasn't this process could have easily stretched out for two to five additional years.
Do the rich get richer (I am assuming you are meaing the Maloofs) Sure, but last time I checked, they also employed people with their money.
Players make a lot of money, but they also spend a lot of money and a large portion of that spending is in Sacramento.
As far as what a town should do with scarce money, take this example: Say you had $100 to your name. With that $100, you can buy a week's worth of food, some work clothes and a cheap bike OR you can spend it all on one month's worth of food. If you invest in yourself and buy work clothes and a cheap bike, you can get to work and, by the end of the week, earn enough money for the next week plus a little extra. This is survival. In the other option you starve to death in 40 days. This is what Sacramento is doing... things are bad, money is tight, without investing in Sacramento, Sacramento is going to die.
As far as a cavalier attitude goes, KJ managed to steal one year by grace alone. In this year, he had to come up with a plan to build an arena... he may be cavalier, but if he wasn't this process could have easily stretched out for two to five additional years.
Siranthony
Starter
The same people who are against the arena talk trash about how disfunctional the city is and how they couldn't get anything done in the past (not just the arena). But they are against getting anything done on just about anything. It's self a fullfilling profecy. thats what CAVE people are all about. they get to complain when things don't get done and when they do get done. They get to feel like they are always right but feel a sense of dread boecause the world is a big piece of crap. Thats why we need leadership. We have a great Mayor. Don't vote for CAVE people or give they're opinions too much merit. They are only there to erode the foundation.
The people that oppose the arena that I am talking about are not CAVE people. Please be aware of that. They are not against everything. They are not against the city. My whole point in offering these posts is to point out how careful we need to be to NOT diss these folks, not generalize by calling all opponents CAVE people. They are not.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Most if not all the money raised to build the arena comes from sources who would NOT spend money on anything else. This is the huge disconnect between those who think the money is being used wrongfully and the rest of us. The company that will manage the arena is investing millions. The Maloofs are investing millions and most of the money is coming from deals with private companies to manage the parking lots when there are arena events. An unknown amount of money is coming from the NBA. None of this money would or could go for anything else. This is a major misunderstanding. There is no money being taken away from parks and the like and it is very likely that the revenue that is a result of the construction of this arena and everything else around it will be used to build and maintain parks, etc.
Unfortunately, it is only the rich people in this case that will drag this city from the 20th century to the 21st century. The city is acting as a broker, in some ways, to bring all this private money together to get this massive project going.
Let me give you a bit of my background. I moved here because of the small town atmosphere. Then when the Kings came here, I found out what that small town atmosphere meant when big time items were trying to get into Sacramento. They were battled every step of the way. I figured out very quickly what I was missing.
Let us not forget the income that this entire project will bring to the area. The NCAA abandoned us becasue of an inadequate arena. I don't know what money was lost to local businesses. Maybe only a few million but I know when I attended a Final Four I needed food, lodging and bought all kinds of things so that my daughter and I could have fond memories. Let us say Stern rewards us with the All Star game just as he rewarded Orlando. How much money is that worth to local businesses? Then there are the national conventions for our political parties. These are worth $150 mil to the local businesses - something like that.
I think the entire misconception is that it is just to let the rich get richer. I believe a 1000 jobs are attached to ARCO. Certainly this new complex will employ more in the long haul and will employ many just to construct it. This will create a lot of jobs in an area with a very high unemployment rate. Property tax revenue will increase. To make what could be a long and boring story come to a halt, it means money to Sacramento just as the loss of the Kings would mean a loss of money.
And then there is PRIDE. Sorry to shock folks but Sacramento's claim to fame is that it is half way between the Bay Area and Tahoe. We all know that or should know that. I want the pride of having something unique in Sacramento. I want people to think of us as more of a cow town. Now I know some people prefer it to be a cow town and that was me 40 years ago but I'll bet it is in the minority.
I hope most of it gets built in my lifetime and I suspect you hope so also. When it's built and the Intermodal is done and the depot is resurrected, I'll get my wife to drive us all around to take a peek at what has been built. I will be proud and would be happy to drag my aging bones around to show your wife what has been done.
I personally do not understand the mentality that turns down an increase in income to this area. People are very suspicious of government and we have hit a period where the rich (that 1% that's in the news) are looked upon as selfish and not concerned about the rest of us. Although I suspect that may be true, that doesn't mean we won't benefit as they get richer. Let us not bite off our nose to spite our face (or however that goes).
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Please be aware that the CAVE term refers primarily to a very determined group of people that have flooded the sacebee forums with anti-arena, anti-growth, anti-Kings rhetoric for a long time. You're jumping in at the end of what has been an incredibly long, drawn out and frustrating process. I will strongly defend all the people here who have fought to get the facts about a new arena out there.
Here's an example for you:
We have Laker fans who post on this board and have done so for a number of years. They're basketball fans and there is a mutual respect between all of us. There are also Laker fans who come here and join the board with the sole intent of causing problems, creating havoc and in general being jerks. They're trolls and there is no tolerance for them.
The CAVE people are the equivalent of trolls.
Dime Dropper
All-Star
Anywhere I can watch this online? Seem to remember the other meetings being shown, would hate to miss this one.
annihilator_33
Starter
annihilator_33
Starter
whoops, didn't realize mike posted the same link in another thread
I don't need to be convinced of any of that. I'm with you. Please don't call opponents, the ones I know, either CAVEs or trolls. They are not on here. They just disgree with me and you. Please reread what I have posted. Let's hope the City Council (sp) votes in favor of moving on with the project tonight.
I don't need to be convinced of any of that. I'm with you. Please don't call opponents, the ones I know, either CAVEs or trolls. They are not on here. They just disagree with me and you. Please reread what I have posted. Let's hope the City Council (sp) votes in favor of moving on with the project tonight.
uolj
Starter
I think you're missing the point.
For the most part, the term CAVE people refers only to opponents who "have flooded the sacbee forums with anti-arena, anti-growth, anti-Kings rhetoric for a long time", not people who oppose the arena in general.
Derogatory terms like that do have a tendency to get over-applied, so I agree people should be careful about using CAVE to refer to any arena opponent. But from what I've seen it has mostly referred to a specific type of behavior characterized by citizens who act as though they are against virtually everything, regardless of facts, evidence or reasoning.
Mad D
Starter
Well I just found out someone who was a long time friend was one of those Sac Bee commenters and when he found out I was for the arena he decided to text me at 6 AM for a few days with messages about the negative impact this is going to have and that we will all have to deal with it for the next fifty years. I haven't even tried responded to his nonsense and he has become my own real life troll.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I hope you don't mind me finding that a bit humorous in a demented sort of way.
It's just a reminder that they live among us. It is too bad they don't spend as much time reading and understanding as they do trying to convince us of something we have already read and understood.
Mad D
Starter
I hope you don't mind me finding that a bit humorous in a demented sort of way.
I really wish I can just send the FANS group to his house or at least find a list with all the benefits the new arena will bring (I thought I remember seeing one on this site). I know he has become one of those people who have fallen on tough times and probably feels that everything is against him.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I wrote something that caused my brain to start to sizzle from exhaustion in this very thread.
Mad D
Starter
Yes I saw that and I'm putting that into my mental inventory but I'm not sure my 20 something year old brain will be able to output that information as well as yours when needed.
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kennadog
Dog On It!
If things are going wrong in a person's life, it can get pretty dark and dreary for them. Sorry your friend is going through tough times. If it includes a really tough financial situation, then the arena seems like such a collosal amount of money.
The truth is, for any city or developer who is capitalized or can get capital, now is the time to invest in these types of projects, if they're ever going to do it at all. Land is much cheaper in in California, in particular. Construction costs are down. Interest is so low, it's riduculous, meaning that for the term of the loan (say 30 years) a borrower will have lower much debt service. The city, if it keeps the parking and floats municipal bonds to raise the upfront capital, will save millions of dollars in interest.
My only solution to the issue with your friend is to tell him that, for the sake of your friendship, you won't try to convince him the arena is good for the city, if he won't try and convince you it's bad for the city.
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K
Kingsguy881
Guest
Those same friends of yours probably just love them some Brad Pitt and don't mind spending a trillion dollars to go see his movies and make him even richer, even though professional athletes are supremely talented to actors.
And gee, why is Hollywood so rich? Ohhhhh, they have movie studios there. That brings INCOME, people who spend money there, visitors, etc....
No offense, but your friends are short sighted and frankly with that kind of logic I wonder about their IQ level.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
What she said.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
It's his wife, grasshopper. Be careful who you insult.
Mad D
Starter
Thanks Kennadog, that's helpful. I wouldn't feel too sorry about him financially because he probably is better off than I am right now and I understand the benefits this can bring. He was always one of those people who argued just to do so as well.
Section 101
All-Star
I heard you love drinking beer and watching American Idol. Bet you text in more than 1 vote !!
kennadog
Dog On It!
Actually I have a really bad tendency to do the same thing. Most especially when the debate is heavily one-sided. On occassion, I've even argued a side I don't believe in, just to try and bring balance to a conversation.
I didn't say it was an attractive quality?
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