Building a bench

#1
Looking at the Kings the only guys that I'd say are sure fire starters on a contending team are Cousins and Gay. Yet the starting five of Collison, McLemore, Gay, Thompson and Cousins were statistically one of the best in the league.

So it stands to reason that strengthening the bench (and/or upgrading any starting spot) is all it would take for the Kings to take a leap forward.

The bench last season was terrible defensively, terrible with outside shooting and poor in terms of ball movement/assists and number of turnovers.

So what changes would you like to see? What trades? What signings?

Or do you believe significant changes to the starting lineup have to occur?
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#2
Were dealing with a couple of unknowns. Will the same McLemore come back, or will an improved McLemore show up. Will Stauskas show up stronger and with improved handles. Improvement by both players could make a difference, but can the Kings afford to wait and see? The biggest question to my mind, is just what position will Gay be penciled in at. If Gay is starting at the four, then what role will JT be assigned. The Kings have to get minutes for Willie Cauley-Stein, who I think can have an impact this next season. I'd love to see him get some minutes next to Cuz as well as backup center when Cuz gets a blow. So where does that leave JT?

The other big question is if Gay moves to PF, then who is the starting SF? A yet to be acquired player? Casspi? Perhaps a stronger Stauskas could log some minutes there. Luol Deng? Karl wants players that can handle the ball, shoot the ball, pass the ball and make good decisions with the ball. Your guess is as good as mine as to fits that description on the current roster. I have my opinions which I'll keep to myself, but from that perspective, I think some changes are in order. I think McCallum is gone. I think they'll try their best to move Landry, and JT. The only reason you move Moreland or Stauskas, is to be part of a bigger deal, other wise you let their careers play out and see what you have. Not sure about McLemore. He doesn't have a natural feel for the game, but he's a hard worker. Not ready to give up on him, but for the right offer, I'd kiss him goodbye.

Of course I'd love Wes Mathews and a number of other players, but the price is probably too high, unless were able to do a sign and trade, which takes two to tango. Sometimes you can find talent right in front of you if you keep your eye's open. Lest we forget, Mathews went undrafted in the 2009 draft, and played on our summer league team. I know, I was there, and he played well. So there he was, right in front of us, but we did nothing. He was then signed by the Jazz, and the rest is history. Maybe it's about time we started finding and developing our own talent, instead of always looking over the fence at someone else's grass.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#3
I still wish Vlade would of tried to acquire a second round pick and maybe see if he can help bolster the bench. Having JT, hopefully an improved Nik and retaining Casspi would be a good start as far as bench play. I'd also scope out the summer league for talent, there's always some there to be had, just need to do your homework and see if that player fits in your scheme in order for him to be successful.
 
#4
I still wish Vlade would of tried to acquire a second round pick...
I really hate this. People assume because it didn't happen that it wasn't tried. Every report we heard ahead of the draft was that Vlade was trying to make a small deal ahead of the draft. Yet you assume he didn't even try to acquire a second round pick. He might have struck out, but it doesn't mean he didn't try. It takes two to tango. I don't think there is a lot of interest in people taking Nik, Landry, Ray etc… off of our hands...
 

Warhawk

The cake is a lie.
Staff member
#5
I still wish Vlade would of tried to acquire a second round pick and maybe see if he can help bolster the bench. Having JT, hopefully an improved Nik and retaining Casspi would be a good start as far as bench play. I'd also scope out the summer league for talent, there's always some there to be had, just need to do your homework and see if that player fits in your scheme in order for him to be successful.
It has actually been covered that he did try to get more picks. Here is one quote about it:

The Kings do not have a second-round pick this year. Divac says he tried to make a trade for a pick that would allow him to select a point guard, but some other general managers tried to take advantage of him and he rejected their offers.
http://www.capradio.org/articles/20...ade-im-no-rookie-as-kings-draft-cauley-stein/

Also this:

Deuce Mason ‏@DeuceMason
Jun 25
Vlade Divac says he tried to get another 1st round pick because they really liked Cameron Payne and Frank Kaminsky.
 
#6
I really hate this. People assume because it didn't happen that it wasn't tried. Every report we heard ahead of the draft was that Vlade was trying to make a small deal ahead of the draft. Yet you assume he didn't even try to acquire a second round pick. He might have struck out, but it doesn't mean he didn't try. It takes two to tango. I don't think there is a lot of interest in people taking Nik, Landry, Ray etc… off of our hands...

Couldn't you just buy second round picks?
 
#7
Retain Casspi and Miler first.

Toss a fisherman's line out offering Ray for Beno.

Most likely I think our bench is decent as is, we just need Nik to hit some shots
/Miller
/Nik
/Casspi
/Landry
/Thompson after WCS settles in

I'd like Vlade to use every single dime we have on a single FA, the most bang for the buck.

I'd start with Matthews, decide if the injury situation is worth the risk.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
#9
Yes, you could buy a pick, but someone has to be willing to sell you one.
Philadelphia did have five, and only traded one of them. I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't have parted with one. That said, nobody else bought one either. I'm not terribly enthused about the second round in this draft.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#10
Retain Casspi and Miler first.

Toss a fisherman's line out offering Ray for Beno.

Most likely I think our bench is decent as is, we just need Nik to hit some shots
/Miller
/Nik
/Casspi
/Landry
/Thompson after WCS settles in

I'd like Vlade to use every single dime we have on a single FA, the most bang for the buck.

I'd start with Matthews, decide if the injury situation is worth the risk.
Generally players have no problem coming back from the type of injury that Mathews had, and from reports so far, he's looking good and working out. However, it's been speculated that he's going to demand something in the 12 mil a year range. Which is more than we'll have to work with. The only way I see us acquiring him would be in a sign and trade. Something like we acquire Mathews, and we trade McLemore back. McLemore's salary along with our available capspace might do the trick. Maybe!
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#11
Philadelphia did have five, and only traded one of them. I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't have parted with one. That said, nobody else bought one either. I'm not terribly enthused about the second round in this draft.
Yeah, I think the Kings were interested in Payne, and that would have required a mid first round pick.
 
#13
Matthews tore his achilles. I feel like I have to remind people. There is a very good chance he will never be the same. 12-15 mil is way too much to invest in an injured player where statistics say his production will fall significantly.

Now that we've taken care of the PF position with WCS, we need a small forward and a backup PG. I was a big fan of McCallum's, but as with many 3 or 4 year players, when you draft them they are already close to their max potential. He's not going to get much better.

I might take a flier on Chris Copeland. Might get back to his Nicks shooting form in a wide open offense. Rondo might also be a good fit for a one year rental while we re-establish our team credibility.

For better or worse, we invested 2 recent lottery picks in the SG position and we need to let it develop. Strengthen the positions around them while the grow.
 
#14
Generally players have no problem coming back from the type of injury that Mathews had, and from reports so far, he's looking good and working out. However, it's been speculated that he's going to demand something in the 12 mil a year range. Which is more than we'll have to work with. The only way I see us acquiring him would be in a sign and trade. Something like we acquire Mathews, and we trade McLemore back. McLemore's salary along with our available capspace might do the trick. Maybe!
I'll stick with the science, original link from hrdboiled, but I still contact him asap in free agency to gauge the situation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23733634

Data for 18 basketball players with Achilles tendon repair over a 23-year period (1988-2011) were obtained from injury reports, press releases, and player profiles.

At the time of injury, the average age was 29.7 years, average BMI was 25.6, and average playing experience was 7.6 years. Seven players never returned to play an NBA game, whereas 11 players returned to play 1 season, with 8 of those players returning for ≥2 seasons. Players who returned missed an average of 55.9 games. The PER was reduced by 4.57 (P = .003) in the first season and by 4.38 (P = .010) in the second season. When compared with controls, players demonstrated a significant decline in the PER the first season (P = .038) and second season (P = .081) after their return.

The NBA players who returned to play after repair of complete Achilles tendon ruptures showed a significant decrease in playing time and performance. Thirty-nine percent of players never returned to play.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Staff member
#15
Having a grandfather who was a carpenter and having built a few of these for my mother's garden, let me say that the key to building a bench is actually something subtle that you don't think about. An amateur might try to build essentially a right angle. Now try sitting on that right angle and see how it feels. in order to really make a bench comfortable what you need to do is make shallow angle cuts on the legs and back support beams behind the seat and backrest. 15 degrees or so, allowing for a natural cupping action in the seat, and the ability to slightly recline on the backrest. Makes a world of difference.
 
#16
I believe this is the depth chart as far as who is currently under contract for the Kings:

C Cousins/Cauley-Stein
PF Thompson/Landry/Moreland
SF Gay
SG McLemore/Stauskas
PG Collison/McCallum

Obviously the Kings need to sign a PG, they need a backup PG and they need at least one more SF. I'd also like to see them get a stretch 4 and a veteran SG. To do most or all of that would require trades in addition to free agency and I don't see a lot of trade bait the Kings would want to part with. Landry for sure. One of McLemore or Stauskas possibly? Maybe Moreland but I doubt he'd net much. The Kings might still want to deal Thompson but I think he'd be an ideal third big on a good team, and possibly the Kings if Cauley-Stein plays his way into a starting spot in time.

So I'll be curious to see which, if any, trades the Kings make this summer. But on the free agent front, here are some available players that I feel fit a need or needs and who the Kings might have a reasonable chance of signing.

Wes Matthews
Monta Ellis
Jae Crowder
Lou Williams
Rodney Stuckey
Jared Dudley
Kosta Koufos
Aaron Afflalo
Patrick Beverly
Dorell Wright
Marco Bellinelli
Mike Dunleavy Jr
Mirza Teletovic
Cory Joseph
Andrea Bargnani
Richard Jefferson

And of course Omri Casspi and Andre Miller. Any that I missed?
 
#19
Aslo, get Rondo and occasionally have DC play with bench unit. That significantly improves bench ball movement and shooting. DC would be an excellent bench leader. Along with the improved post D if JT is on the bench, those are two huge improvements right there. All the sudden our starting lineup takes a HUGE step forward, at the same time our bench takes a big step forward. All with two moves. Add a mid level exception/tade for a back up defensive SF and we may be tidy heading into the season. Add a top shooter and we are looking actually very darn good.

Other than a Rondo, we're collecting role players at this point, who are much more gettable. The hard part of building our roster is actually done. We're really not that far off.
 
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#20
If Thompson gets moved and you want to look for a budget big, Jeff Withey is worth a glance, probably comes cheap. Decent rim protection, decent team defense, not useless on offense. I like my coupon guys and he is one of them.
 
#21
Aslo, get Rondo and occasionally have DC play with bench unit. That significantly improves bench ball movement and shooting. DC would be an excellent bench leader. Along with the improved post D if JT is on the bench, those are two huge improvements right there. All the sudden our starting lineup takes a HUGE step forward, at the same time our bench takes a big step forward. All with two moves. Add a mid level exception/tade for a back up defensive SF and we may be tidy heading into the season. Add a top shooter and we are looking actually very darn good.

Other than a Rondo, we're collecting role players at this point, who are much more gettable. The hard part of building our roster is actually done. We're really not that far off.
*That feeling you get when Brick likes one of your thoughtful posts about basketball/the roster*

:):D
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
#22
I believe this is the depth chart as far as who is currently under contract for the Kings:

C Cousins/Cauley-Stein
PF Thompson/Landry/Moreland
SF Gay
SG McLemore/Stauskas
PG Collison/McCallum
You left off David Stockton (who has an unguaranteed contract like Moreland) but I will admit that this omission is a mere technicality.
 
#23
Listening to Vlade say "I told George to trust me and let me make personnel decisions" and "We need get Darren some help", I'm pretty sure, neither Lawson, nor Rondo to Kings is happening. I would rather split cap space to sign Rodney Stuckey and Alan Anderson, bring back Omri for Room Exception and 'Dre for minimum (would be $1.5 million for him).
Rudy at 4 is very concerning though. If it fails to produce defensively, Kings can't just go back to Rudy at 3, since they would have already invested in new starting SF and would be thin in quality real big men depth (no, Moreland is no more than bench fodder at this point).
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Staff member
#24
Listening to Vlade say "I told George to trust me and let me make personnel decisions" and "We need get Darren some help", I'm pretty sure, neither Lawson, nor Rondo to Kings is happening. I would rather split cap space to sign Rodney Stuckey and Alan Anderson, bring back Omri for Room Exception and 'Dre for minimum (would be $1.5 million for him).
Rudy at 4 is very concerning though. If it fails to produce defensively, Kings can't just go back to Rudy at 3, since they would have already invested in new starting SF and would be thin in quality real big men depth (no, Moreland is no more than bench fodder at this point).
The thing about Rondo is that Vlade has also (accurately) noted that George likes to run 2 PGs or at least 2 ballhandlers when he can. now I'm not sure Rondo is perfect for that duty given the rest of the roster, but there is no doubt we need to add passing, and a guy who used to understand defense wouldn't be amiss either. Can't just close up shop with a defensive rookie. Now a defensive rookie, a former All Defensive team PG, and another defensive roleplayer to be named later, and you might start talking about culture change.

And the thing I like about Rondo is the 1yr contract thing. Not only because we can escape, but because it would be an indicator of his mindset. Basically he would be trying to rebuild value. And to whatever degree he might have slacked off defensively etc., on basically a 1yr contract push he's going to be inspired to put forth his best foot.
 
#25
Here's my concern about Rondo. He's gonna use us for the money. If both parties are consenting, then I guess there isn't anything wrong with that, but we need to keep it in the forefront of our minds. He wants a big payday next year.

Now does that mean Sacramento's money is as good as New York's? Possibly, but that mentality doesn't really scream loyalty to me. In general, I don't question his ability, but rather his motives. There are a few red flags.
 
#26
The thing about Rondo is that Vlade has also (accurately) noted that George likes to run 2 PGs or at least 2 ballhandlers when he can. now I'm not sure Rondo is perfect for that duty given the rest of the roster, but there is no doubt we need to add passing, and a guy who used to understand defense wouldn't be amiss either. Can't just close up shop with a defensive rookie. Now a defensive rookie, a former All Defensive team PG, and another defensive roleplayer to be named later, and you might start talking about culture change.

And the thing I like about Rondo is the 1yr contract thing. Not only because we can escape, but because it would be an indicator of his mindset. Basically he would be trying to rebuild value. And to whatever degree he might have slacked off defensively etc., on basically a 1yr contract push he's going to be inspired to put forth his best foot.
Lawson and Miller were ok defensively in Denver, because Dre has size to stick with SGs, and they also had Iggy/Brewer and/or defensive bigs on the floor. Both Rondo and Collison are small, and even if they have toughness and desire, size disadvantage is not easy to overcome, especially when Kings are talking about Rudy at 4. That's why you can get by with Collison, Stuckey and Miller, but run into trouble putting 2 PG lineups with Rondo, Collison and Mccallum (put him here just for emphasis, I'm pretty sure, he's gone or just emergency guy).
Plus I still hear/read stupid 1 year/$10-12 million proposals for Rondo, and even if you give him only half of that, you just bought a question mark for most of available cap space, and still have a couple of major holes left. Another factor, I think, Collison was sold on the idea of being a full-time starter (I'm pretty sure, no one else was offering it, that's why he took less than MLE) - that's why he "urged Vivek to keep starting 5". Darren looks like a pro, but you still can't be 100% sure to receive maximum effort from him coming off the bench.

Kings still need a CBA/asset schemer - PDA without the personality: Vlade seems to do well evaluating resources at hand, but judging by draft unfolding I'm pretty sure, there was a way to squeeze something extra, while still coming away with Willie (I'm taking Vlade and WCS at #6 over PDA and his dealings without an ounce of doubt, don't get me wrong). Getting starter quality defensive forward (whether it's SF or PF) will likely require trading Landry or JT - not enough money involved otherwise. And to make it worth for the other team working with Chicago to sell that protection/at least free up later picks also seems like a must, and I'm not sure, Vlade can navigate through the process very well right now. That's why I would absolutely welcome adding Shlenk or other shrewd adviser to the FO before July, 1st.
 
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#27
Here's my concern about Rondo. He's gonna use us for the money. If both parties are consenting, then I guess there isn't anything wrong with that, but we need to keep it in the forefront of our minds. He wants a big payday next year.

Now does that mean Sacramento's money is as good as New York's? Possibly, but that mentality doesn't really scream loyalty to me. In general, I don't question his ability, but rather his motives. There are a few red flags.
Here's my concern about Rondo- he is a bad basketball player.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Staff member
#28
Here's my concern about Rondo. He's gonna use us for the money. If both parties are consenting, then I guess there isn't anything wrong with that, but we need to keep it in the forefront of our minds. He wants a big payday next year.

Now does that mean Sacramento's money is as good as New York's? Possibly, but that mentality doesn't really scream loyalty to me. In general, I don't question his ability, but rather his motives. There are a few red flags.
This is a rare case where a guy using you for money is a GOOD thing. Its the guarantor of his performance and attitude. Now if you were having to burn an asset to get him, then no. But if he's just looking to use us as a plank, is willing to come over cheap in free agency, then use away.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#29
I have no idea on specific names to add to the bench. I'll just add that this is where I would attempt to use the FA$. Not on a big name, on the bench. Why? Because I believe there is 0.001% chance of getting the big name FA with the Kings being the joke of the league and perennially not getting into the playoffs. I would talk to several quality bench guys around the league and try to get at least three of them to buy-in at once. That way each one knows that he is not the lone ranger going into the labyrinth known as the Kings. That would be a scary situation for any sentient NBA player. But if they can come here en masse? There is safety in numbers.
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#30
This is a rare case where a guy using you for money is a GOOD thing. Its the guarantor of his performance and attitude. Now if you were having to burn an asset to get him, then no. But if he's just looking to use us as a plank, is willing to come over cheap in free agency, then use away.
I would add that with DC on the bench behind Rondo you have a heck of a safety net if indeed he is done as a player.