Building a bench

jcwkings · Jun 28, 2015

Heres my stab

Trade Nik Stauskas, Ray and Moreland for Wilson Chandler.

Sign Rondo *gulp* (hey this is a swing for the fences year, you hope he knows his career is at stake and brings it).

Re sign Andre Miller

Re sign Omri Casspi

Rondo/Collison/Miller
Ben/Chandler
Chandler/Gay/Omri
Gay/JT/Landry
DMC/WCS

The other option is to find a way to off load Landrys contract and go after Afflalo.

ShastaKingsFan · Jun 28, 2015

jcwkings said:

I do think Chandler makes a lot of sense for us. He could start or being a valuable bench player at the wing positions. He played for Karl and even played some stretch 4 for him at times. Seems like a relatively 'low key' guy, who is not going to disrupt the move towards a culture change.

Pair him with Afflalo.....hopefully a recovered AA. They played together with Karl...chemistry, etc etc

steelevt · Jun 28, 2015

jcwkings said:

One of my concerns with rondo (not only directed to you but all that bring him up) is how he deals with the role we give him. He might start but he might not. Beginning of the year collison played well with a full healthy team. What was it 9-4 in a brutal schedule? If he out plays rondo, will rondo accept a bench role? If last year was a look at how rondo is now, will he pout and think the championships the big 3 got him gives him the right to start even if he is being outplayed?

Bricklayer · Jun 28, 2015

steelevt said:

The problem wit Rondo is size, but it really must be stated the guy in the crosshairs is Ben. Karl has always liked to spend heavy minutes with 2 PGs or PG type guys out there, or at least 2 ballhandlers. That dates all the way back to when we first got to know him as a successful coach (following the messy Cleveland and Golden State stints). He would often run Gary Payton and Nate McMillan out there together, which was tremendous defense but not much scoring in those early Payton days. When they got truer SGs, it was still good ballhandling types who could help set people up like Kendall Gill or Hersey Hawkins. It was Ray Allen, who was a very good creative SG next to the Milwaulkee PGs, and then when Karl decided to chase off Allen as a parting gift to Milwaulkee fans, he went and got back Payton to start next to Cassell. He gets A.I., and who does he decide to start next to him but Anthony Carter. There have certainly been years here and there where he had only a single PG/less creative SG, but they've been the exception not the norm, and feel more like just placeholder years while he waits to get personnel more to his liking.

Amit149 · Jun 28, 2015

First of all this whole thread is about improving the bench, and it operates on the premise that are starting five is doing fine, yet you have the nerve to come here and destroy this haven with talks about Rondo and pushing DC out of the starting lineup...SHAME!
But it's not too late, you can change your mind, and if you need a quick reminder about our starters strength as a unit here it is:

Here are the top 5-man combinations with over 250 minutes together to have reached a better mark in terms of point differential per 100 poss:

1. SA: Parker-Green-Leonard-Duncan-Splitter (+21.3)
2. CLE: Kyrie-JR-LBJ-Love-Mozgov (+20.7)
3. GSW: Curry-Klay-Barnes-Green-Bogut (+20)
4. LAC: CP3-Redick-Barnes-Blake-DJ (+19.2)
5. SAC: DC-Ben-Rudy-JT-Cousins (+16.1)

These teams present the formar champions, the two finalists, a heavy contender and... a 29 wins team, and thogh there is a gap between the 4th and 5th place- it's actually similiar to the gap between 5th and 6th, most teams (including PO teams) Couldn't pass +10. If that doesn't tell you that we shouldn't necessarily break the starting lineup- I don't know what will...

bajaden · Jun 28, 2015

Bricklayer said:

To my mind, is that the best use of the money? Your betting on Rondo returning to his old form, which is possible. Now I'm not a big Rondo fan to begin with. I just don't like PG's that can't shoot the ball. Especially when your best player is someone that draws a lot of attention every time he touches the ball. I do like my PG to be able to defend, but at the same time, having a roaming big on the floor like Willie, can make up for some mistakes on the perimeter. Teams will find out quickly that the one/five switch they love to run isn't the advantage they thought it would be.

Amit149 · Jun 28, 2015

Speaking about Afflalo and Rondo- I am completely against bringing them on. those who wants us to sign them are operating based on the players they used to be and not the one's they are now.

Rondo is a bad basketball player it really is that simple to me, if you need proof- look at Dallas 5-man combinations:

The lineup of: Nelson-Ellis-Parsons-Dirk-Chandler outscored their opponents by 10.7 points per 100 poss.
The lineup of: Rondo-Ellis-Parsons-Dirk-Chandler was outscored by their opponents and recorded (-5.4) per 100 poss.
16.1 points per 100 poss difference- which is the exact same number our starting five outscored the opponent and a sign from the basketball GODS not to sign Rondo!!!

That's how bad he has been, you take out a post-his-prime Jameer Nelson, leave the same 4 other players and plug in Rondo and your point differential goes from GSW to Orlando Magic, not to mention the Celtics have done better without him...

And Afflalo ain't much different, the talk of him being a good defender is outdated by a few years- and while unlike Rondo he can still a good contributer I think he is widely over-rated. People mention him and Wes Matthews as similiar talents here but just look at what happens when you replace Matthews with Afflalo:

The lineup of: Lilard-Matthews-Batum-LMA-Lopez outscored their opponents by 12.7 (great mark) points per 100 poss.
The lineup of: Lilard-Afflalo-Batum-LMA-Lopez was outscored by their opponents and recorded (-4.3) per 100 poss.

That's a monster 17 points per 100 poss difference between the exact same group of guys with Afflalo instead of Matthews that's how big the gap is between the two.

Bricklayer · Jun 28, 2015

Amit149 said:

Actually the only reason we can talk about Rondo/Afflalo is precisely because both did fall off so dramatically. If they had not we would barely be able to afford one of them, and they probably wouldn't come.

But whoever first paired those names is thinking the same way I am thinking -- we have more holes than we have money to patch them with. SO one possible way out of that conundrum is to take a calculated gamble on undervalued guys, and try to get two quality guys for 1 salary slot. Of course its absolutely correct to note that if they don't bounce back you have wasted your money and your summer, and you can't afford to. But if they do...and neither is so old yet that they necessarily cannot...

I have no problem at all letting guys pass through town using us to get big contracts elsewhere. The key being getting them elsewhere. Not so amused if we end up overspending to retain them.

dude12 · Jun 28, 2015

There should be some interest in Demarre Carroll and Danny Green but these 2 guys are going to be in demand and they will get paid.

randymoss1881 · Jun 28, 2015

HndsmCelt said:

If he is a done player (which he is) than that saftey net means crap. We would have wasted valuable cap space on a has been in a crucial year for the franchise. I'm pretty sure signing Rondo would take 6-8 minimum leaving us with basically no money and holes on the roster somewhere else.

ockingsfan · Jun 28, 2015

I think that vlade's mentality is to build the bench, instead of blow up the team.

He keeps talking about stability and liking most of the players we have. Namely, dmc, gay, and economic as the core. George Karl has spoken highly of mcclemore during the season. I think those guys are safe.

The rest of the players are open to be traded or upgraded.

I think WCS will be starting by Christmas. So JT will slide over and be the ideal 3rd big on a playoff (hopefully) team.

I think Andre will be brought back as a third pg. casspi will be re-signed as a grit and glue guy off the bench.

What the Kings need is a backup point guard who can play some backup sg and occasionally start.

My choices:. 1) Jeremy Lin 2) Rodney Stuckey

I think either one could be signed for a reasonable 3 year 16 mil contract.

Then we need a backup wing player that can defend and also backup.

Few that are available is 1) Corey brewer 2) jae crowder 3) Kyle sigler )4 Wes Johnson

Also I think these guys are attainable for a reasonable contract

Bricklayer · Jun 28, 2015

bajaden said:

We're talking about a 4x All Star, 4x All Defensive Team Member, and 1x NBA champion here who's been to the mountaintop to which we aspire. If he wants to truly return to his old form he can play for my team anytime.

Bricklayer · Jun 28, 2015

dude12 said:

Precisely the problem. Even if we could outcompete people for what are soon to be very overpaid roleplayers, our current situation means they probably wouldn't come anyway, and would take every bit of our caproom just for 1 player. Hence us being reduced more to looking for damaged or undervalued properties who might be able to come in and outperform their contracts.

Amit149 · Jun 28, 2015

Bricklayer said:

I don't know what you see in Rondo that I don't that makes you think that he is the same player he was or anything remotely close, over the last 2 1/2 years his game can be described as such:

Bricklayer said:

Rondo is damged but he is not undervalued and that is precisely the problem... if you think he is not getting a payday this summer you are wrong, someone is going to take the bait, you are not going to get him in a DC type contract... and I don't think he's worth it

HndsmCelt · Jun 28, 2015

randymoss1881 said:

I do not share your pessimism about Rondo I don't think we have anything like a decent body of work to look at since his return; regardless if the concern is the opportunity cost of the other guys we can't sign I will remind you we are talking about a 1 year deal. Most of the middling FA's out there will be looking for multi-year deals but NEXT season we will wish we had that cap space especially if this is gong to be our year to make a big splash. We could be in position to showcase a dam good team featuring the most dominat big in the game AND offer max money to and FA.

LA King Fan II · Jun 28, 2015

Put me on the yes on Rondo side. He showed flashes at Boston last year and than sank when teamed with a washed up Dirk and a misfit running mate Monte Ellis.

Anyone can play with Collison, and it would make for a happy and hard trying Rudy Gay which is a good thing. He still knows how to play basketball IMO and can pass, but the biggest problem is teams can sag off him much more than off of DC. Not bueno for Cuz.

The Hammer · Jun 28, 2015

Bricklayer said:

This is my thinking as well.

The thing is if we can collect a couple of those guys, take the Afflalo/Rondo example... all the sudden you have built a VERY good roster, into which buy in is more likely. It's like in chemistry where you need to get over the activation energy to a reaction, but once those guys are together (with our very good young core), they are likely to bring the best out of each other.

So much is dependable on having a functional leadership. It's everything.

I would absolutely gamble on Rondo AND Afflalo. Overpay, go over the cap, (cap will bump up soon anyway), and away we go. Maybe Casspi can take another leap as a defender if he's told to specialize in that. We get those guys and we are 6-8 seed very competitive, with a chance to really put it together over the next few years. That is a team on the rise, and a team that precisely guys like Rondo/Afflalo like to resuscitate their careers with. Play with best big man of your generation in a fan crazed city in a new arena with a Hall of Fame Coach? I think they might take that.

Capt. Factorial · Jun 28, 2015

The Hammer said:

I don't really think we've got the capspace to sign both of them. We'll have about $11M of cap space - in fact less (Hoopshype doesn't list the stretched contract of Ellington and ShamSports appears to be defunct, so I'm not sure exactly how much less). Afflalo opted out of $7.8M - he's unlikely to go around trying to find a deal for much less than that. Rondo is going to be on a "make-good" one year contract most likely, but he'll still command close to $10M himself. I think you'd be lucky to get the two of them for $16M, and we have maybe $9-10M to play with.

You could try to get clever. Stretching Landry would save us about $4M, but it's not the first thing you want to do because then he's going to be eating $2.7M of our cap space for the next five years. Perhaps you could sign-and-trade JT to Portland, which would get us most of the way there, but then you'd have to come up with another big man. Sure, there's been lots of scuttlebutt about Koufos, but under that scenario we wouldn't have the money to pay Koufos. We could start dealing players away but in most cases we'd need to bring salary back...and it's not like we have that many pieces we want to dump for absolutely nothing to get a couple of risky vets.

It's not so much a question of having the willingness to go over the cap. It's more a question of finding clever ways to get ourselves over the cap (provided, of course, that we could get those guys to both sign here anyhow).

ShastaKingsFan · Jun 28, 2015

Afflalo kinda reminds of Jim Jackson in 02/03. Some had written him off and moved on looking elsewhere,...but we signed him and he came in and played very solid at both the 2 and 3 positions. In large part, because we had a coach who knew exactly how to use him. God that team was stacked

sdballer · Jun 28, 2015

ShastaKingsFan said:

Problem is Jackson was a nice one season role player find that cost us less than $1M. Afflalo is looking kind of done but is going to want at least 3 season for 7-10m per which kills almost all of our cap.

Iced Espresso · Jun 28, 2015

Bricklayer said:

I agree Brick. No assets out too?

Yeah sign me up. Especially with out roster right now, all we'd have to do is resign Casspi and Miller and we are solid 1-12.

And we have good cap if it is a one year rental too the following season to stay competitive when the cap increases as well.

Bosnian Diehard · Jun 28, 2015

Collison, Rondo (?), Miller
McLemore, Stauskas
Gay, Casspi, Wesley Johnson (?)**
WCS, Landry, Moreland
Cousins, Thompson

** If Rudy plays a lot at the 4.

Not too shabby.

pdizo916 · Jun 28, 2015

Bosnian Diehard said:

that looks quite sexy. I can see the Kings adding both Rondo and Wes Johnson.

Bricklayer · Jun 28, 2015

sdballer said:

Afflalo can want anything he wants, but I think almost all scenarios where we sign him start with the idea that other teams noticed his falloff too, and the market will be soft. We might be the only team in the league offering him a starting spot, for his old coach even.

The Hammer · Jun 28, 2015

pdizo916 said:

I would be ecstatic if our offseason cosisted of adding WCS, Rondo, and Wes Johnson.

That is absolutely a playoff team.

DWill, Casspi, Ray, and Moreland are your 9-12 guys... which is actually good talent at those spots, which means we both dramatically updraged our starting lineup, AND our bench in just a draft pick and two signings. That would be a HUGE win.

If we made the playoffs and maybe took a series, I could see Vlade in the running for Exec of the Year. Legitimately. People would be talking. The story of the turnaround would be too much to resist for just about every talking head.

In that case, McLemore becomes a key guy. If he can take another step forward, keep up/improve/make more consistent his shooting... that has a huge benefit for us.

miltonap · Jun 28, 2015

Dude, Rondo sucks

kingsboi · Jun 28, 2015

The Hammer said:

Too many "If's" in your post. You are looking too far ahead and there are too many factors...how does a team that hasn't been to the playoffs in nearly 10 years all of a sudden have a chance to "maybe" take a series. They would be content with just making the postseason and giving the 1 or 2 seed a run for their money.

kingsboi · Jun 28, 2015

Bricklayer said:

I'd rather roll the dice on Ben if the best we can do at the two guard is Afflalo.

Bricklayer · Jun 28, 2015

kingsboi said:

The idea would be to have 2 guys to roll the dice on. You can't let Ben tank another season for us out there alone. So you can just about bet we're looking for antoher major minute guard to give us a safety cushion. Maybe Ben sucks. Maybe new guard sucks. But hopefully they don't both suck at the same time.

randymoss1881 · Jun 28, 2015

miltonap said:

They want to learn the hard way

Building a bench

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Bench

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trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est

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Bench

Don't Make Me Use The Bat

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Hall of Famer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat

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