Any news about Peja's injury?
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Bricklayer said:
I think most are aware of that ancient injury at this point, but I do SO get tied of it being thrown out as some sort of half-assed excuse for why Peja is a wuss today, or worse yet saying its perfectly understandable that he's a wuss because he actually showed once he was a macho macho man and it backfired so lifelong wussdom is the 100% reasonable and logical response. 
At BEST it means that he was basically traumatized into being a wuss -- that having tasted pain once he wouold forever wimp out afterward. At worst its irrelevant as a young player who was either tricked or the victim of rampant doctor incompetence but would still NEVER have gone out on the court if he knew the truth or how bad it would hurt.
Either way Peja is quite obviously AT THIS POINT, HERE TODAY, well on the wussy side of things and as adverse to pain as a gradeschooler. Moreso perhaps. He's the guy who faints in the delivery room.
Bringing up ancient history is akin to saying Brad can jump because he used to be a high jumper in high school, that Mike can defend because he used to lock down kids on the playground in junior high, or that Webb is in fact durable because he didn't have a major injury until 1995. Historical footnotes even if true. Not helpful at all at this point to us unless we can convince Peja to go into wuss-therapy to sort out the root sources of his extreme pain aversion.
At BEST it means that he was basically traumatized into being a wuss -- that having tasted pain once he wouold forever wimp out afterward. At worst its irrelevant as a young player who was either tricked or the victim of rampant doctor incompetence but would still NEVER have gone out on the court if he knew the truth or how bad it would hurt.Either way Peja is quite obviously AT THIS POINT, HERE TODAY, well on the wussy side of things and as adverse to pain as a gradeschooler. Moreso perhaps. He's the guy who faints in the delivery room.
Bringing up ancient history is akin to saying Brad can jump because he used to be a high jumper in high school, that Mike can defend because he used to lock down kids on the playground in junior high, or that Webb is in fact durable because he didn't have a major injury until 1995. Historical footnotes even if true. Not helpful at all at this point to us unless we can convince Peja to go into wuss-therapy to sort out the root sources of his extreme pain aversion.
Just because you don't subscribe to the idea doesn't mean it's totally without merit. We know Peja has a low pain threshold. It's been obvious with pretty much everything that's happened to him over the course of his career.
What I was objecting to was the notion by some allegedly professional athletes that Peja was a wuss because he didn't suck it up and play through the pain. While it might be okay for a tight end in football to do it, you don't see quarterbacks doing it because it throws off their passing. So, why should it be expected for shooters to do it when their fingers would either be VERY tender OR totally numb, which in either case would pretty much totally change the feel of the ball and how the shooter...shoots.
I'm very sorry if you're tired of it "being thrown out as some sort of half-assed excuse for why Peja is a wuss today" - just because something is used as an excuse, doesn't mean it's necessarily not a VALID excuse.
Oh please yourself...
Your need to defend every King because they are a King aside, there is NOTHING valid about raising a decade old injury as some sort of, again, half-assed excuse for sitting out with a hurt pinky. (a "slight sprain" according to the report). The wuss factor is PRECISELY when you become afriad of and unwilling to endure pain, regardless of where the aversion began. Being "tough" would be exactly going right back out there again knowing that you might suffer more pain and just accepting it.
And yes, every week quarterbacks go out there sporting injuries which would leave Peja shelved for months (I seem to recall Brett Favre playing most of the season with a BROKEN finger on his throwing hand a year or two ago, and I wonder how many games Peja would play through with a sports hernia?). Many basketball players do as well. I do wonder what the odds are Iverson would sit out with a hurt pinky.
The last couple of games have not particularly bothered me with Peja -- I've come to accept that at this point as just the way it is. And I have said earlier that the falloff in Peja's performance in Seattle might be understandable -- toughing it out does not ensure that you will be able to play well. But that is as far as I'm willing to go -- the fact of the matter was Peja did look to be more passive when he returned in Seattle, and then he took the next night off while still drawing roughly a $100,000 paycheck for the evening. Just a continuation of a career long pattern -- he either sits out with boo boos, or if he plays he spends so much time worrying about them that he psyches himself right into ineffectiveness. This is not a player particularly prone to major injury, and that may not be coincidence -- he plays the game like someone scared of getting hurt and never exposes his body in any way unless he can absolutely avoid it. And its worked for the most part. Unfortunately what that means is he's been successfully wussy. He doesn't miss time with broken bones or ruined knees, he misses times with bumps and bruises and the occasional strained muscle. If that all somehow stems back to an incident 10,000 miles away when he was 19, then all that means is that he fell off his horse once a long time ago and is now too scared to ever get back on. Might be less insulting to just admit that he has a low pain threshold and let it go at that.
Your need to defend every King because they are a King aside, there is NOTHING valid about raising a decade old injury as some sort of, again, half-assed excuse for sitting out with a hurt pinky. (a "slight sprain" according to the report). The wuss factor is PRECISELY when you become afriad of and unwilling to endure pain, regardless of where the aversion began. Being "tough" would be exactly going right back out there again knowing that you might suffer more pain and just accepting it.
And yes, every week quarterbacks go out there sporting injuries which would leave Peja shelved for months (I seem to recall Brett Favre playing most of the season with a BROKEN finger on his throwing hand a year or two ago, and I wonder how many games Peja would play through with a sports hernia?). Many basketball players do as well. I do wonder what the odds are Iverson would sit out with a hurt pinky.
The last couple of games have not particularly bothered me with Peja -- I've come to accept that at this point as just the way it is. And I have said earlier that the falloff in Peja's performance in Seattle might be understandable -- toughing it out does not ensure that you will be able to play well. But that is as far as I'm willing to go -- the fact of the matter was Peja did look to be more passive when he returned in Seattle, and then he took the next night off while still drawing roughly a $100,000 paycheck for the evening. Just a continuation of a career long pattern -- he either sits out with boo boos, or if he plays he spends so much time worrying about them that he psyches himself right into ineffectiveness. This is not a player particularly prone to major injury, and that may not be coincidence -- he plays the game like someone scared of getting hurt and never exposes his body in any way unless he can absolutely avoid it. And its worked for the most part. Unfortunately what that means is he's been successfully wussy. He doesn't miss time with broken bones or ruined knees, he misses times with bumps and bruises and the occasional strained muscle. If that all somehow stems back to an incident 10,000 miles away when he was 19, then all that means is that he fell off his horse once a long time ago and is now too scared to ever get back on. Might be less insulting to just admit that he has a low pain threshold and let it go at that.
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I tend to nurture and you tend to want to take each of them to the woodshed if they don't show certain traits. I guess that's just the way it is...
Sorry I don't subscribe to your definition of "tough" - "going right back out there again knowing that you might suffer more pain" doesn't necessarily sound tough. It sounds kinda silly, ESPECIALLY if you were aware you weren't going to be able to function very well with the particular owie in question.
We've butted heads on this numerous times before. I guess it's one of those things we'll always agree to disagree on because I don't see either of us changing our point of view.
Is Peja soft? Yes. Would he be effective out there right now "playing through the pain"? Um, no. Not if past performance is any indication... So, considering that if nothing else, it doesn't do much good for people to get all upset about Peja not grabbing the duct tape and getting back on the court. He wouldn't be able to hit the broad side of a barn - and if Peja can't shoot, Peja ain't worth squat.
Sorry I don't subscribe to your definition of "tough" - "going right back out there again knowing that you might suffer more pain" doesn't necessarily sound tough. It sounds kinda silly, ESPECIALLY if you were aware you weren't going to be able to function very well with the particular owie in question.
We've butted heads on this numerous times before. I guess it's one of those things we'll always agree to disagree on because I don't see either of us changing our point of view.
Is Peja soft? Yes. Would he be effective out there right now "playing through the pain"? Um, no. Not if past performance is any indication... So, considering that if nothing else, it doesn't do much good for people to get all upset about Peja not grabbing the duct tape and getting back on the court. He wouldn't be able to hit the broad side of a barn - and if Peja can't shoot, Peja ain't worth squat.
T
i wouldn't call peja tough until he said in game 7 of the WCF's, "just cut my finger off, i've got to get out there and play, theres no time have surgery!!!"
his wuss factor does benefit him though, as brick said, he doesn't get seriously hurt. so he sits for a few nights, he's been more reliable (health wise) then past kings.
his wuss factor does benefit him though, as brick said, he doesn't get seriously hurt. so he sits for a few nights, he's been more reliable (health wise) then past kings.
Sorry to bud in but his hand is swollen and according to Pedja has no real feeling in it. So tell me how effective would a basketball player be when his shooting hand is in that kind of condition? It would be a different story if it was the pain of injury that kept him from playing but that was not the case.
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W
Trade Peja and we'll get slaughtered by other teams that's for sure. Is there any better shooter than Peja Stojakovic? The starting lineup perfect for me if you ask me. If there's anything to trade that's Adelman or his assistant coach for defense.
Edit: My keyboard's killin' me here!
Edit: My keyboard's killin' me here!
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You're still missing the point. He isn't lying. We 100% believe he means that. His doctor's prognosis is a slightly sprained pinky. That's all it takes for Peja to feel the injury is crippling. Peja would shoot 20%, give up on looking for his shot, not defend, not rebound, and jog slowly up and down the court.
A real man would say: "tis but a scratch" and go out there with a grin because it's nothing. Taping the last 2 fingers of your hand is nothing. Most players would probably not even report that kind of injury. I'd be embarrassed to hear the MRI results and would keep it quiet from the guys so I can shut up, suit up, and play. Go out, play your game, and if it doesn't come, treat it like a normal slump and increase intensity on defense, board, setup teammates, and take it to the basket. Adjust my shooting on the fly. If Iverson can handle and shoot fine with broken fingers, how do I let a sprain on my most useless finger affect me?
A real man would say: "tis but a scratch" and go out there with a grin because it's nothing. Taping the last 2 fingers of your hand is nothing. Most players would probably not even report that kind of injury. I'd be embarrassed to hear the MRI results and would keep it quiet from the guys so I can shut up, suit up, and play. Go out, play your game, and if it doesn't come, treat it like a normal slump and increase intensity on defense, board, setup teammates, and take it to the basket. Adjust my shooting on the fly. If Iverson can handle and shoot fine with broken fingers, how do I let a sprain on my most useless finger affect me?
Perhaps not.
Is there anything more overrated by Kings fans than having the best shooter?
Definitely not.
Oddly teams without the best shooter have just kept on beating us over the years. They must be cheating. Everyone knows if you don't have the best shooter that you can only average 40ppg and go 0-82.
........
Shooting's cute. Every team needs a few shooters. But its been a good 20 years since the team with the best shooter won a title (Bird). Its not a relevant consideration when it comes down to winning.
Is there anything more overrated by Kings fans than having the best shooter?
Definitely not.
Oddly teams without the best shooter have just kept on beating us over the years. They must be cheating. Everyone knows if you don't have the best shooter that you can only average 40ppg and go 0-82.
........
Shooting's cute. Every team needs a few shooters. But its been a good 20 years since the team with the best shooter won a title (Bird). Its not a relevant consideration when it comes down to winning.
Some tend to think about Peja as a good player, and some don't. What's in question here is whether Peja is detrimental to this team's success or not. In my opinion, Peja's not the problem here. Heck, I think he's an important piece to the "puzzle" , and if there was a way to keep him around, I'd do it. Besides, trading him at this point is unrealistic. His salary is fairly small, and there is no possible way you could get equal value in return for him unless you'd settle with somebody like Calvin Booth or Vitaly Potapenko. If anything, a sign and trade next year is a much bigger/better possibility.
I sincerely doubt any team that has to rely on Peja is ever going to win a ring. But that's not a current concern. We're playing tonight to avoid fallingback into last place in the Western Conference. Peja as bigtime winner, fantasy though it might be, isn't important right now.
And nobody, well at least not me, has said that Peja is THE problem. As much a part of it as anybody. But he's not pulling down an otherwise overacheiving team or anything. He's just a wuss. An enormous issue when you start asessing the championship potential of a player, not much at all when assessing the ability of a player to help 4 equally talented teammates keep the team out of the cellar. Except of course that he has to actually drag his oh-so-brutally-violated-little-finger out onto the floor and actually give it a go in order to contribute. My point would have been that he is as utterly expendable as anybody else on the roster when it comes time to finally try to win again, not that trading him will solve all our problems (aside from dodging the salary bomb).
Still not terribly upset he missed the last one -- Tuesday night we were actually probably better off without him. He shrinks in the Bowen headlights anyway, and throw in an owied pinky and it could have been all kinds of ugly. Garcia did at least as well as he would have in all liklihood. He should not have sat it out, but I doubt it hurt us.
But tonight's different. Its winnable. We desperately need it. He's had a few days of healing. There is not a competitor on the planet who would let a slightly sprained pinky keep him out of this one. We'll see.
And nobody, well at least not me, has said that Peja is THE problem. As much a part of it as anybody. But he's not pulling down an otherwise overacheiving team or anything. He's just a wuss. An enormous issue when you start asessing the championship potential of a player, not much at all when assessing the ability of a player to help 4 equally talented teammates keep the team out of the cellar. Except of course that he has to actually drag his oh-so-brutally-violated-little-finger out onto the floor and actually give it a go in order to contribute. My point would have been that he is as utterly expendable as anybody else on the roster when it comes time to finally try to win again, not that trading him will solve all our problems (aside from dodging the salary bomb).
Still not terribly upset he missed the last one -- Tuesday night we were actually probably better off without him. He shrinks in the Bowen headlights anyway, and throw in an owied pinky and it could have been all kinds of ugly. Garcia did at least as well as he would have in all liklihood. He should not have sat it out, but I doubt it hurt us.
But tonight's different. Its winnable. We desperately need it. He's had a few days of healing. There is not a competitor on the planet who would let a slightly sprained pinky keep him out of this one. We'll see.
You're right, but that's not the point. How many guys in this league are truly capable of carrying a team to a ring , or as you say ... how many players are truly capable of successfully awarding their teams with success when they rely on them ? Kobe can't do it. T-Mac can't do it. KG can't do it. All better players than Peja, so unless Peja magically turns into MJ overnight he won't be able to carry this team to a title. With a good core of players (not saying that this one isn't good, our chemistry so far is lacking however and we lack a true post presence), and another star/superstar, we'd have a shot at the title even if we relied on Peja.
P
Not many.
The difference between Peja and all these other players is that these other players are WARRIORS. They provide a strong defensive effort for the most part. They'll play injured.
Peja doesn't.
Kobe Bryant, AI, KG are too ... self important to sit down because they have a bruised finger. Their ego is too damn large. Their competitive spirit is too damn large.
True warriors do that. I know that Reef plays injured, far worse than a pinkie ouchie.
Peja is a one trick pony. He can shoot. He doesn't do anything else at or above the average level. He's a bit below average as a defender. He's a terrible rebounder. He's not a great passer. He's not a talented playmaker or dribbler.
Therein lies the difference between Peja and other on-the-verge superstars. Most of those guys have more than a potent jump shot.
Further, ALL of these guys WANT to win. They'd rather be IN the game than on the sideline.
The difference between Peja and all these other players is that these other players are WARRIORS. They provide a strong defensive effort for the most part. They'll play injured.
Peja doesn't.
Kobe Bryant, AI, KG are too ... self important to sit down because they have a bruised finger. Their ego is too damn large. Their competitive spirit is too damn large.
True warriors do that. I know that Reef plays injured, far worse than a pinkie ouchie.
Peja is a one trick pony. He can shoot. He doesn't do anything else at or above the average level. He's a bit below average as a defender. He's a terrible rebounder. He's not a great passer. He's not a talented playmaker or dribbler.
Therein lies the difference between Peja and other on-the-verge superstars. Most of those guys have more than a potent jump shot.
Further, ALL of these guys WANT to win. They'd rather be IN the game than on the sideline.
I take it a step further in that I don't think Peja can even be a #2 on a title team. Leaves your main guy oh so naked out there in the big games against the San Antonios and Detroits of the world when "the world's greatest shooter" suddenly turns into a pumpkin. Be an excellent #3 however -- take his points when he can give them, but still have the winning core intact even when he cannot.
In any case, all irrelevant for the moment. Clearly we have not tried to build this team around him, so I'm not even bothering to judge him on some sort of faux superstar scale. Just a competitor scale. And there I suppose is something that I DO think can hurt us -- sets a bad tone for everyone when people sit out with minor nicks and pains. Just as a real tough guy can shame others into sucking it up, I think someone on the other end of the scale cna make people think if he does it, why shouldn't I? And the only defense against that infection is for Peja to sort of become isolated and snickered at in his own lockerroom, and that's not good either.
We are paying you $100,000 tonight Peja. If you play 40 min that's $5,000 a minute. Or about $83 a second. Just play.
P.S. by the way, forgot to mentione that I think Peja's CURRENT contract is imminently tradeable -- almsot perfectly so. Not only are there tons of talented people in that area, but the salry is sitting right in the middle so that one throw in guy from our side gets us to superstar level, and one throw in guy from their side gets us down to guys still on their rookie deals. Almsot every player inthe NBA is within practical reach.
In any case, all irrelevant for the moment. Clearly we have not tried to build this team around him, so I'm not even bothering to judge him on some sort of faux superstar scale. Just a competitor scale. And there I suppose is something that I DO think can hurt us -- sets a bad tone for everyone when people sit out with minor nicks and pains. Just as a real tough guy can shame others into sucking it up, I think someone on the other end of the scale cna make people think if he does it, why shouldn't I? And the only defense against that infection is for Peja to sort of become isolated and snickered at in his own lockerroom, and that's not good either.
We are paying you $100,000 tonight Peja. If you play 40 min that's $5,000 a minute. Or about $83 a second. Just play.
P.S. by the way, forgot to mentione that I think Peja's CURRENT contract is imminently tradeable -- almsot perfectly so. Not only are there tons of talented people in that area, but the salry is sitting right in the middle so that one throw in guy from our side gets us to superstar level, and one throw in guy from their side gets us down to guys still on their rookie deals. Almsot every player inthe NBA is within practical reach.