Al Horford, would you trade our pick for him even if it goes into top 3?
- Thread starter KingsCitizen
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Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
I guess now would be a good time to point out that absolutely no one said that Al Horford was a bad player or anything in that vein.
The main point of contention here is the idea that two years of Al Horford is better than 4-5 years of Embiid/Wiggins/Parker as was laid out in the original post. I would wager in the case of Horford vs Embiid or even Wiggins, absolutely not, as we know the depth and limits of Horford's game (yes, he's been an all-star but he's also got a recent history of season derailing injuries, not eclipsing the 30 game mark in two of the last three seasons, which at his currently salary level isn't going to fly) but don't even know what the ultimate ceiling of Embiid or Wiggins can be (Parker, while certainly further along in his development than, say, Wiggins, can also fit this profile). Couple that with more years of team control and a reasonable cap number, and I'd say that using the pick rather than trading it is the way to go.
In my personal opinion, a line-up of Cousins/Embiid/Gay/McLemore/(IT/RayMac) is better for our future than Cuz/Horford/Williams/McLemore/IT. Now if you want to somehow make it so the trade also includes Jeff Teague and Kyle Korver, then sure I'm all for it. But as a straight up Top-3 Pick for Horford swap (which I'm pretty sure is financially undoable anyways) in this year's draft featuring those three players at the top, my answer is no.
The main point of contention here is the idea that two years of Al Horford is better than 4-5 years of Embiid/Wiggins/Parker as was laid out in the original post. I would wager in the case of Horford vs Embiid or even Wiggins, absolutely not, as we know the depth and limits of Horford's game (yes, he's been an all-star but he's also got a recent history of season derailing injuries, not eclipsing the 30 game mark in two of the last three seasons, which at his currently salary level isn't going to fly) but don't even know what the ultimate ceiling of Embiid or Wiggins can be (Parker, while certainly further along in his development than, say, Wiggins, can also fit this profile). Couple that with more years of team control and a reasonable cap number, and I'd say that using the pick rather than trading it is the way to go.
In my personal opinion, a line-up of Cousins/Embiid/Gay/McLemore/(IT/RayMac) is better for our future than Cuz/Horford/Williams/McLemore/IT. Now if you want to somehow make it so the trade also includes Jeff Teague and Kyle Korver, then sure I'm all for it. But as a straight up Top-3 Pick for Horford swap (which I'm pretty sure is financially undoable anyways) in this year's draft featuring those three players at the top, my answer is no.
Gary
All-Star
Who cares? I watch a handful of games for every team, every year and I, and every other person in this thread have not seen the same shortcomings he has... Some of the short comings he listed aren't even true. If you knew about Al Horford then you would know that what slim said was total rubbish. So please nitpick on something you know about rather than blindly defending someone. He's wrong... 99% of the people that know Horford will say he's wrong.. Hell, 99% of the fan on the Hawks forums will say he's wrong.
Seems like you were devastated when I advised Slim that he didn't know what he was talking about. If someone is going to come off like they are the authority on a subject "because they've watched more games than everyone here on the forum" (which wasn't true at all) and if he's totally incorrect about what he's saying then yes, I will call him on it. The same as I am calling on you for getting involved in a conversation which you have no input on. You seem to have just posted on the thread to stir things up.
Gary
All-Star
Yeh, I just realized... I'm done with this thread. I should have been done with is when the supposed "authority"
on the subject said Horford was an "undersized player that cannot protect the rim and he will take shots from cousins". That literally made me LOL because right then and there I thought about Al Jefferson and not Al Horford (except for the undersized at PF thing because neither are technically undersized at PF. Both are almost 6'9 without shoes and 6'10 in shoes)
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twslam07
All-Star
I think you're talking about Millsap...
K
KingMilz
Guest
I applaud you Gray, Horford honestly is the best possible fit next to DMC imo (aside from God Mode LaMarcus Alridge lol).
First things first: I never put myself over as an "authority" on anything. That was all you guys. My (accurate) claim of having seen every one of Horford's professional games was a direct rebuttal to the claim that I had not seen Horford play, and nothing more. It was certainly not an attempt to establish myself as some sort of "authority" on the subject.
Secondly, I said he was a undersized big, not an undersized power forward; how do you know that Horford would play the 4 in Sacramento? Horford has started at center in Atlanta, even when Atlanta had full-sized centers. At least, with Cousins, we know that he can slide to the 4 when we have a full-sized 5. What if Tito Junior's not psychologically suited to play PF at the pro level? His quickness and his jump shooting give him advantages at the 5 that he wouldn't necessarily have at the 4, especially if he moved to the western conference.
Thirdly, Horford's ability to protect the rim is in about the same vein as Cousins right now: his shot blocking is of the "nobody else on my team is going to do it, so I guess I'll take a shot at it" variety. His career BLK% is 2.5; that doesn't even put him in the top 100 of active players and, even if you filter out the players whose career mpg is less than 20, he still barely makes the top 50, ranking behind such feared rim protectors as Francisco Garcia, Cousins himself, and his own teammate, Millsap.
I never said that Horford wasn't good. I didn't even say he wasn't very good. I said that I don't think that he's a good fit next to Cousins, for a few reasons: I'm not convinced that he'd be as good an NBA power forward as he is an NBA center, and he is undersized at center. Even if you stipulate that he'd be just fine at the 4, his usage rate is higher than I want from a player in that spot. Maybe some of you are assuming that Gay will be gone, and want to restructure the team not unlike how Memphis is set up, which I'm not philosophically opposed to, but I am not assuming that Gay will be gone, and there's not enough shots to go around, if he's not. Also, which one of them would be the "Gasol" in that arrangement? I'm not sure either of them is suited for it. He's also too expensive for this team: you can afford to give $12M per to a guy who's durable, but not to a guy who's injury prone, especially when we would probably have to give up at least one useful player and a draft pick to get him; it's not like Atlanta would be willing to hand him over for, say, Landry and Terry's expiring.
To me, the best fit next to Cousins is a player who (in order of importance):
Secondly, I said he was a undersized big, not an undersized power forward; how do you know that Horford would play the 4 in Sacramento? Horford has started at center in Atlanta, even when Atlanta had full-sized centers. At least, with Cousins, we know that he can slide to the 4 when we have a full-sized 5. What if Tito Junior's not psychologically suited to play PF at the pro level? His quickness and his jump shooting give him advantages at the 5 that he wouldn't necessarily have at the 4, especially if he moved to the western conference.
Thirdly, Horford's ability to protect the rim is in about the same vein as Cousins right now: his shot blocking is of the "nobody else on my team is going to do it, so I guess I'll take a shot at it" variety. His career BLK% is 2.5; that doesn't even put him in the top 100 of active players and, even if you filter out the players whose career mpg is less than 20, he still barely makes the top 50, ranking behind such feared rim protectors as Francisco Garcia, Cousins himself, and his own teammate, Millsap.
I never said that Horford wasn't good. I didn't even say he wasn't very good. I said that I don't think that he's a good fit next to Cousins, for a few reasons: I'm not convinced that he'd be as good an NBA power forward as he is an NBA center, and he is undersized at center. Even if you stipulate that he'd be just fine at the 4, his usage rate is higher than I want from a player in that spot. Maybe some of you are assuming that Gay will be gone, and want to restructure the team not unlike how Memphis is set up, which I'm not philosophically opposed to, but I am not assuming that Gay will be gone, and there's not enough shots to go around, if he's not. Also, which one of them would be the "Gasol" in that arrangement? I'm not sure either of them is suited for it. He's also too expensive for this team: you can afford to give $12M per to a guy who's durable, but not to a guy who's injury prone, especially when we would probably have to give up at least one useful player and a draft pick to get him; it's not like Atlanta would be willing to hand him over for, say, Landry and Terry's expiring.
To me, the best fit next to Cousins is a player who (in order of importance):
- Has a low-to-mid usage rate.
- Is a good shot blocker.
- Can guard opposing power forwards and centers.
- Is a good offensive rebounder.
- Is a fair-to-good midrange shooter.
Gary
All-Star
Why would you want a low to mid usage rate? You worried about taking shots from Cousins?
You're right, he's not a great shotblocker by any means, but he does protect the rim from a post/drive aspect, and is good defensively inside (on the way to the rim).
On the other end he does hit pretty much everything that he catches within about 5-8ft.
Anyway, I count three of the 5 that are on your list, but I don't agree with one of the two remaining qualities you're looking for.
If I had to list 3 things I want in a PF?
1. Someone who can guard PF and C (just like you).
2. Someone who has good inside/post defense who can block shots at a good clip.
3. Someone who is PROVEN in the NBA. None of this Jordan Hill or Amir Johnson stuff. I would want to shoot higher than either of those players.
You're right, he's not a great shotblocker by any means, but he does protect the rim from a post/drive aspect, and is good defensively inside (on the way to the rim).
On the other end he does hit pretty much everything that he catches within about 5-8ft.
Anyway, I count three of the 5 that are on your list, but I don't agree with one of the two remaining qualities you're looking for.
If I had to list 3 things I want in a PF?
1. Someone who can guard PF and C (just like you).
2. Someone who has good inside/post defense who can block shots at a good clip.
3. Someone who is PROVEN in the NBA. None of this Jordan Hill or Amir Johnson stuff. I would want to shoot higher than either of those players.
LPKingsFan
All-Star
Johnson is maddeningly inconsistent (I've had him on a couple fantasy teams) but he'd definitely be a good fit. Unfortunately, I think the Raptors are attached to him. I remember suggesting (maybe not here) some trades with Toronto at the beginning of the season in which we traded for Lowry and Johnson, never imagining that Gay would be available. In retrospect, the Gay move seems to have panned out, but I'm curious if Lowry/Johnson would have been better for the team moving forward...
I agree with Slim's list for the most part, but I'd downplay the usage rate concern. Cuz's usage rate is already one of the highest in the league, and there's no guarantee Gay will be here long term.
I agree with Slim's list for the most part, but I'd downplay the usage rate concern. Cuz's usage rate is already one of the highest in the league, and there's no guarantee Gay will be here long term.
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KingMilz
Guest
They average similar blocks and Al Horford can actually play defence without being in foul trouble every single game cause he get's overpowered/out-skilled. You don't need a offensive rebounder if you actually tell Cousins to play down low where he's most effective while Horford spaces the floor for him with his deadly shooting. You want Cousins being the offensive rebounder not the guy chucking up mid range jumpers. Why would offensive rebounding be a must playing with Cousins (Al's a very solid rebounder anyway)?
Amir Johnson while a solid fit literally only fits one of those 5 areas you said and that's the offensive rebounder part, I would be all for Jordan Hill but, but if you combined both Hill and Amir they would not be the player Horford is nor would they help us win like Al.
Can someone explain the usage rate thing? Cause how on earth does Jordan Hill have a high usage rate (I assume it's how often the ball goes through you) when most his points come off offensive boards/hustle points/pick n rolls and he's not much of a playermaker nor is the offence every run through him other than the odd post up.
If you look at the shot percentages of Horford and Cousins on stats.nba.com, you'll see they work best on opposing sides of the court. They balance each other out. Horford is very good at mid to high range on the right side of the court, while Cousins dominates on the left side. They should work very well in hi-low situations.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I think the mismatch comes in that we would want a defensive minded big who took as many shots as JT. I have nothing against Horford but we would have to unload Gay and/or IT to have enough shots. I like a team that can play smash mouth on offense and defense so it's an interesting idea.. I know we still need outside shooting but I am counting on Ben with fingers crossed.
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KingMilz
Guest
Would you not rather have Horford and Cousins over Gay and Cousins? I know I would rather have the best PF/C combo in the NBA over a talented SF who lacks heart and takes stupid shots. At worst if Al does not work out (no reason it wouldn't but let's say worst case) at least your getting a talented player who gives you 100% effort every single time he steps onto the floor.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I would have to think carefully. Rudy is the best guy to have the ball in his hands when the clock is running down. IT chokes and has done some very stupid things. I also am not going to pass judgment on an athlete of Rudy's caliber based on a partial year on a team in chaos. Yes, I know how he was with Toronto. To assume an athlete of his age and skill level cannot eliminate some of the iso tendencies and be part of a more team oriented offense might be foolish. Most of the Kings were iso players last year. Why? If it is the result of coaching, will Horford be better?
MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
I would agree that Horford is not the IDEAL fit, but similar to my argument FOR Thomas over Vasquez earlier in the season - you have to start somewhere.
The argument being that Thomas was flat out better than GV. It was so obvious. And a lot of that stemmed from how horrid Vasquez was. So while I agreed that Thomas wouldn't take us to a championship (many people argued that we shouldn't start Thomas because we could never 'win' with him) I'd say .. how about we try to get to .500 first?
With Horford the argument is similar. Perfect fit? Not exactly. I would prefer Noah. Possibly others like Favors, Ibaka, Davis, Drummond, etc.
But damn, Horford and Cousins together is pretty formidable. Better than anything we've had down there since Vlade and Cwebb. I don't want to play those guys if I'm the opposing teams bigs, that's for sure.
Would I trade the pick for Horford, outside of Embiid, Wiggins, and possibly Parker? Yes. Not because it gets us a title, but because it gets us a hell of a lot closer.
I wouldn't keep IT at that point, by the way. At least not as a starter.
The argument being that Thomas was flat out better than GV. It was so obvious. And a lot of that stemmed from how horrid Vasquez was. So while I agreed that Thomas wouldn't take us to a championship (many people argued that we shouldn't start Thomas because we could never 'win' with him) I'd say .. how about we try to get to .500 first?
With Horford the argument is similar. Perfect fit? Not exactly. I would prefer Noah. Possibly others like Favors, Ibaka, Davis, Drummond, etc.
But damn, Horford and Cousins together is pretty formidable. Better than anything we've had down there since Vlade and Cwebb. I don't want to play those guys if I'm the opposing teams bigs, that's for sure.
Would I trade the pick for Horford, outside of Embiid, Wiggins, and possibly Parker? Yes. Not because it gets us a title, but because it gets us a hell of a lot closer.
I wouldn't keep IT at that point, by the way. At least not as a starter.
S
SacKings2002NBAChampions
Guest
I'd have a hard time trading a top 3 pick for Al Horford
He's a great player and would undoubtedly make us a playoff team but he's too expensive and in the long run it wouldn't work out.
We'd have to get rid of Rudy Gay and in that case Williams is not a good replacement. I'm really hoping Gay opts out and we sign Wiggins/Parker. 19 million freed in cap + 4-5 million rookie contract or whatever it is for top 3. Trade IT and Landry after resigning the former for some vets and good shooters. Sign LeBron James/Kevin Love in offseason. Bam. All-Star squad.
Cousins
LeBron
Wiggins
Ben Mac
Ray Mac
Or
Cousins
Love
Wiggins
Ben Mac
Ray Mac
He's a great player and would undoubtedly make us a playoff team but he's too expensive and in the long run it wouldn't work out.
We'd have to get rid of Rudy Gay and in that case Williams is not a good replacement. I'm really hoping Gay opts out and we sign Wiggins/Parker. 19 million freed in cap + 4-5 million rookie contract or whatever it is for top 3. Trade IT and Landry after resigning the former for some vets and good shooters. Sign LeBron James/Kevin Love in offseason. Bam. All-Star squad.
Cousins
LeBron
Wiggins
Ben Mac
Ray Mac
Or
Cousins
Love
Wiggins
Ben Mac
Ray Mac
I fixed that for you.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
But if Embiid is gone, the answer is yes!
macadocious
Starter
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I'd prefer going after Asik if we're outside the top 3 and think he'd pair better with Boogie than possibly any big who's available. His contract is bad but we'd have to send a fair amount of salary out in the process. The #5-8 picks should be enough of an incentive for Hou as I think they won't get good offers, and with the pick we should be able to move some bad contracts as well, starting with Landry.
Landry+DWill+#7 for Asik? I'd do it.
Would Hou? They might not get a better offer than that. They've got to move him. Lin also has a huge salary bump next year and they aren't going to pay Lin/Asik a combined 30M next year. If Gay opts in, a Rudy/Asik/Cuz frontline is damn good. Expensive, but the hope would be we could retain both the following year for a decent amount less.
Landry+DWill+#7 for Asik? I'd do it.
Would Hou? They might not get a better offer than that. They've got to move him. Lin also has a huge salary bump next year and they aren't going to pay Lin/Asik a combined 30M next year. If Gay opts in, a Rudy/Asik/Cuz frontline is damn good. Expensive, but the hope would be we could retain both the following year for a decent amount less.
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KingMilz
Guest
Giving up a 7th pick for a guy on a insane contract who might not even resign with us............
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
It would be a similar situation to Horford, except one year removed.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I am going to keep the mind set that players will stay in Sacramento and not leave for the reasons of the past. It's a new ownership with a guy everybody loves. Our ownership seems willing to throw money at athletes, always a winning idea. 
There is a new arena and that has to be a cool idea for any athlete especially when it will be filled with cutting edge technology to feel proud of; electronic toys that make life easier and appeal to tech curious youngsters. Malone has won the heart of Boogie and probably others. Our reputation as a minor part of hell should die very soon.
It is not like 450 NBA players need to be convinced that Sacramento is different than the past. The people that need to be convinced are a small number of agents. The agents funnel info to their clients and should have a major impact. Sure, players talk to each other but are our recent players going to bad mouth the area? Maybe and maybe not. Most people who left the area left because they were part of a house cleaning, a fresh start. What will Jimmer say except "thank you" not that any other player will care.
In other words, this idea that we need to be careful about obtaining guys because they have short contracts needs to be mellowed a bit. Players will know in one year that this is not the old Sacramento. Heck, the fans are the one steady factor and that's a major plus.
There is a new arena and that has to be a cool idea for any athlete especially when it will be filled with cutting edge technology to feel proud of; electronic toys that make life easier and appeal to tech curious youngsters. Malone has won the heart of Boogie and probably others. Our reputation as a minor part of hell should die very soon. It is not like 450 NBA players need to be convinced that Sacramento is different than the past. The people that need to be convinced are a small number of agents. The agents funnel info to their clients and should have a major impact. Sure, players talk to each other but are our recent players going to bad mouth the area? Maybe and maybe not. Most people who left the area left because they were part of a house cleaning, a fresh start. What will Jimmer say except "thank you" not that any other player will care.
In other words, this idea that we need to be careful about obtaining guys because they have short contracts needs to be mellowed a bit. Players will know in one year that this is not the old Sacramento. Heck, the fans are the one steady factor and that's a major plus.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
It's all relative. We're on the books for 16M to Landry/DWill/Outlaw next year. I'd prefer paying that money to a guy like Asik next to Cuz which answers a huge weakness rather than bench players which don't. If we were going after Asik in free agency I wouldn't, but in a trade you're swapping salaries, not adding on.
And I'm not high on the 7th pick and adding more youth to this team, so I'd substitute the pick in for Outlaw to entice Hou.
Plus, in our market we have to take risks. If we get the #1, then we get our shotblocker. Without the #1 though, we likely aren't and I'd much prefer using a lower pick in a package to answer that problem than to use it on a rookie combo guard or a bench shooter.
It's funny to me how people always complain about this starter or that starter aren't worth the money, but then like clockwork we end up wasting tens of millions on bench talent, year after year which doesn't help us. Asik would impact the win/loss column and fill a vital need. Landry/DWill/7th don't really fill needs near that extent. If the choice is plug Asik into out lineup or continue paying Landry/DWill 13M next year while waiting for a draft pick to mature, I'm taking Asik.
Do that, Rudy hopefully opts in, and we still have enough to try to lure a Livingston or Hinrich or Chalmers or Harris.
Any of them, splitting time with Ray at PG, with
Ben
Rudy
Asik
Cuz
is a better squad than anything I'm seeing proposed around here. We make a draft day move for Asik,, that probably convinces Rudy we're trying to win now and chances improve he opts in or re-signs. If we instead draft Smart or a bench shooter, I'd guess that Rudy walks as that's not nearly enough to make a statement that we're ready to win now and improve now, then we're looking at no shotblocker, no Rudy, and more lottery talk next year. Maybe we then throw more money at IT so we don't bleed talent, and we're still sitting in a terrible position, basically paying more for a less talented squad than we just had.
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Letsgokings13
Starter
I'd trade it for horford if we know we cant get vonleh, embiid, parker, or wiggins
randymoss1881
Starter
Zach Lowe put it on Grantland that Holford was quietly available at the trade deadline. This is they guy we should throw the kitchen sink at not Love. I would easily give up Ben/8 pick
Dime Dropper
All-Star
Yeah, it'd be a no brainer. Horford isn't ideal, but he's still a good fit and would improve us hugely, I feel. We may not even have to give up both Ben AND 8, they make take one or the other along with JT and D-Will or something like that.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Well I'd certainly give up #8 at least, although those two freak pectoral tears are troubling. That's a weight lifting injury. More specifically that's a power lifting injury more common in guys who use roids. To have it happen TWICE... Not sure I've ever heard of that.
P.S. still not as bad as the broken sternum bench pressing injury though. My old line football line coach had had that happen to him. Broke it mid lift and had it lift up and peak right in the middle of his chest. You could still see the scar. He told that story as a warning for those of us who liked to bounce the bar a little too much. It had its desired effect.
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KingMilz
Guest
Unless Horford has some serious medical issues's there is no way if I'm the Hawks I'm not getting Mclemore in the deal as well as the 8th pick and something else. He's to good a player imo.
