Who is available as 6th-7th pick

[ParniValjak]

Yes, daring and fairly stupid.

I think time is the only thing that will determine that. At this point in time, it might look stupid but in 5 or 10 years time it could look like a stroke of genius. Just like everyone thought Petrie was stupid and all sorts of other adjectives when he picked Peja while Wallace was still on boards. Time has proven that it was a stroke of genius because Peja went on to have a pretty good career while Wallace was out of the league by the time his rookie deal was over.

 

[Nikolizzle]

You don't have to answer my question about whether you've seen him play or not. Obviously you haven't! And if you have, you wern't paying attention. Just because your in love with a player that can't shoot, but is 6'6" doesn't mean you have to make up a bunch of crap about McCollum. McCollum is a good passer, and he's an excellent ballhandler. Please tell me who the 4 combo guards we have that are better shooters than McCollum? I'm not advocatiing that we draft McCollum. Personally I think the last thing we need on this team is another damm guard. But if I have to choose a guard, I have Oladipo, McLemore, Burke and McCollum all ranked ahead of Williams.

Well you asked that question after I last posted, so clearly didn't see you asked it No, I haven't seen full games of his. Nor anyone, really, as I live outside of the US and it's quite difficult to watch college ball.

Although from what I have seen, he's an OKAY ballhandler, and most experts have agreed with me. Most scouting reports are describing exactly what I laid out. Our 4 combo guards are Salmons, Evans, Thomas, and Jimmer. All of them have game that makes them natural Shooting Guards but for various reasons are playing other positions. The last thing you want to do is put McCollum in that category.

I agree with you, the last thing we need is another guard. But if we do draft one, the best thing we can do is draft a great passer. You said that MCW is "a good passer, but he doesn't blow me away with his passing ability. Burke is just as good a playmaker, and he can shoot." I 100% agree with you on Burke - If he's there, he's the choice. But chances are, he won't be.

While MCW may not impress you, he's a damn sight better facilitator than McCollum is. If we pick a guard, that's what we need. You may have misinterpreted what I meant before - Burke is a great choice, if he's on the board and we want a guard. He probably won't be though, and MCW is the next best choice for this team.

It's a weak draft. Everything outside the Top 3 is speculative at best. I'd just rather take someone who can put the ball in our best players hands than add a player who will be, best case scenario, our second-string shooting guard.

 

[sdballer]

I think time is the only thing that will determine that. At this point in time, it might look stupid but in 5 or 10 years time it could look like a stroke of genius. Just like everyone thought Petrie was stupid and all sorts of other adjectives when he picked Peja while Wallace was still on boards. Time has proven that it was a stroke of genius because Peja went on to have a pretty good career while Wallace was out of the league by the time his rookie deal was over.

I'm not even arguing talent, I'm arguing value. Peja was at least expected to go around that position. Snell is a late first early second guy. If you really want him and there is no way to get extra value, fine. But it isn't daring to just take a guy 20 plus spots higher than anyone else if there is an ability to get extra value by either trading down on moving the 7 for something else. It's a strategy the smarter front offices have used wisely and one Petrie always seemed to just shrug off with an attitude of take the guy we want without considering how the rest of the league values the draft.

its all very early assumptions so I'm not overly worried but I'm really hoping to see a more strategically aggressive front office than we've had recently and this wouldn't be a good start.

 

[ParniValjak]

I'm not even arguing talent, I'm arguing value. Peja was at least expected to go around that position. Snell is a late first early second guy. If you really want him and there is no way to get extra value, fine. But it isn't daring to just take a guy 20 plus spots higher than anyone else if there is an ability to get extra value by either trading down on moving the 7 for something else. It's a strategy the smarter front offices have used wisely and one Petrie always seemed to just shrug off with an attitude of take the guy we want without considering how the rest of the league values the draft.

its all very early assumptions so I'm not overly worried but I'm really hoping to see a more strategically aggressive front office than we've had recently and this wouldn't be a good start.

The thing is that Snell is moving up a lot of teams' boards so just because the mock drafts don't reflect that, it doesn't necessarily make it "not true".

I absolutely agree with you that if we identified Snell as the player we want, we might want to trade down and hopefully shed a contract along the way or get 2 first round picks (maybe Utah) and try and address 2 needs in one go BUT we don't really know how other teams rate this guy. His advanced stats are pretty good and he is exactly the sort of player we would be after as a SF. Very good spot up shooter and coming off screens (~48% from spot up 3 situations), moves the ball (3.7 apg per 40 mins), has potential to develop into a very good defender for position. He is sort of like Leonard a few years back (obviously not as highly rated) so who knows what other teams are thinking. They might rate him highly as well but we don't know that.

On surface, it looks odd but we don't know the full story behind it. Hopefully its a case of trading down, shedding some bad deals (Chuck and Outlaw) and getting a pick later in the first round to get a role player that fits or trading down for 2 draft picks and selecting 2 players that fit the need (SF and a shotblocker)

 

[twslam07]

I have heard a lot of talk on Carter-Williams on this board and it bugs me. I would be very upset if we drafted him. Obviously, I would root for the guy and hope he proves me wrong, but at the time we make the pick, I will be disappointed.

This notion stems from the fact that he would not fit next to Evans. If we are drafting a PG the first thing I'm looking at is if he can shoot, the second thing is if he can defend, and the third thing is if he can handle and pass.

We absolutely do not need a PG next to Evans who cannot spread the floor. The man shot 29% from the college three point line. It's only going to be more difficult for him when he gets to the NBA with a further three point line, longer defenders to shoot over, and more athletic defenders who close out quicker.

The only scenario we should take Carter-Williams is if we trade down AND plan on letting Evans walk. If you agree that we should let Evans walk this offseason, then you are lost in my eyes.

With all that being said there shouldn't be any scenario that we draft Carter-Williams. I am really surprised how many people wouldn't mind us drafting Carter-Williams on this board. He is one of the worst fitting players you could put next to Evans. It would be like putting Tony Allen in our starting lineup and expecting there to be enough space for Evans and Cousins to attack the paint.

 

[funkykingston]

Yeah, that's pretty much my take on MCW, terrible fit next to Tyreke and to a lesser extent, DeMarcus.

Conventional wisdom says you go BPA and don't draft based on fit, but if Evans and Cousins are viewed as cornerstones then you absolutely have to. I can only see Carter-Williams if the team is thinking they'll let Tyreke walk or worse yet that they'll say goodbye to Evabs to pair Ellis (a PG sized SG)in the backcourt with a SG sized PG.

As for Hardaway Jr & Snell it'd have to be a trade down move. And both guys are SGs. Snell insists every time he's asked that he's a 2 and not a 3. So if the interest from the Kings is true then either they ARE letting Evans walk or they are planning to move him back to the point and go big in the backcourt, pairing him with a guy who can shoot.

Interesting that you compare MCW to Tony Allen because I was trying to think of a good comparison. As it happens I was comparing two big PGs today - Jason Kidd and Ricky Rubio who had surpringly similar statistics their rookie years. Kidd actually had a worse 3pt% but a higher overall FG% which reinforces what my eyes told me, that Kidd finished better at the rim. Both were good defenders with quick hands to go along with their size. Both also had otherworldly court vision.

And that's where I struggle to see MCW being highly successful. He is a poor shooter and struggles to finish at the rim and while he might be a good defender as those two were/are (it's hard to judge due to playing in Boeheim's zone) the biggest difference is that Carter-Williams makes good decisions with the ball but isn't in the same league as Rubio/Kidd when it comes to court vision. A guy who can't score in the half court needs to be very special as a creator and MCW (in my opinion) isn't. In fact when defenses tightened and played him tough (quality competition) his assists dropped.

I'm just not high on MCW and I REALLY don't like him if Evans is re-signed.

 

[hrdboild]

I have heard a lot of talk on Carter-Williams on this board and it bugs me. I would be very upset if we drafted him. Obviously, I would root for the guy and hope he proves me wrong, but at the time we make the pick, I will be disappointed.

This notion stems from the fact that he would not fit next to Evans. If we are drafting a PG the first thing I'm looking at is if he can shoot, the second thing is if he can defend, and the third thing is if he can handle and pass.

We absolutely do not need a PG next to Evans who cannot spread the floor. The man shot 29% from the college three point line. It's only going to be more difficult for him when he gets to the NBA with a further three point line, longer defenders to shoot over, and more athletic defenders who close out quicker.

The only scenario we should take Carter-Williams is if we trade down AND plan on letting Evans walk. If you agree that we should let Evans walk this offseason, then you are lost in my eyes.

With all that being said there shouldn't be any scenario that we draft Carter-Williams. I am really surprised how many people wouldn't mind us drafting Carter-Williams on this board. He is one of the worst fitting players you could put next to Evans. It would be like putting Tony Allen in our starting lineup and expecting there to be enough space for Evans and Cousins to attack the paint.

Yeah well it used to bug me when I read post after post about how and why a player is a bad fit for us offensively and then their contributions on the other side of the court are either completely ignored or downplayed as merely a secondary consideration. Eventually you just get over this difference of opinion and accept that not everyone agrees with you, or you find something else to do with your time. I think it's likely that we have a different take on Michael Carter Williams in particular because we see his role on the team differently. At no point this season have I seen MCW as a PG prospect in the NBA. To me he's a wing player with an atypical style of game for a wing player. Certainly there were times this season when his erratic play hurt his team, but you have to give him some credit for leading that team as far as he did while being mostly ineffective as a scorer. Not a lot of guys can dominate a game without scoring the ball and he did that at times this season. If we do draft him (and by no means is that my preference) I don't think we hand him the ball and say "the team's yours kid, do your best". I think he's out there as a defensive roleplayer at the 2 guard spot who's expected to make smart passes on offense and occasionally exploit his ability to get in the lane when our first and second options can't get a good look. Yes the shooting will eventually be a problem if he can't get it to a respectable level but our defense has to be the priority and I like the look he gives us on that end of the floor.

What worries me more is that we bring in a guy like Trey Burke or CJ McCollum and they have to succeed at PG or they're deep rotation players. We've tried and failed with so many lead guards already that it's starting to feel like a never-ending treadmill. Assuming the plan is still to go forward with building around both Cousins and Evans, the guys that worry me the most in this draft are the ones who's value is tied mostly to their offensive potential. We don't really have a need for more scoring. Tighten up the rotation, play active team defense, and take smarter shots and most of the scoring is already accounted for. Now if you believe either of those guys is a superstar in the making, that's certainly a solid reason to draft them. I just don't see that personally. And a guy like Carter-Williams has got enough tools to contribute for a long time as a bench player. Nothing to really get excited about, but it's a tough draft. I'm still hoping someone better falls to us. And hopefully the Monta Ellis nonsense is just lazy writers making inferences that don't actually apply to our management. Because it's obvious he'd be a terrible fit for a coach who's built his career on teaching team defense and I have to believe our management is smarter than that.

 

[bajaden]

Yeah well it used to bug me when I read post after post about how and why a player is a bad fit for us offensively and then their contributions on the other side of the court are either completely ignored or downplayed as merely a secondary consideration. Eventually you just get over this difference of opinion and accept that not everyone agrees with you, or you find something else to do with your time. I think it's likely that we have a different take on Michael Carter Williams in particular because we see his role on the team differently. At no point this season have I seen MCW as a PG prospect in the NBA. To me he's a wing player with an atypical style of game for a wing player. Certainly there were times this season when his erratic play hurt his team, but you have to give him some credit for leading that team as far as he did while being mostly ineffective as a scorer. Not a lot of guys can dominate a game without scoring the ball and he did that at times this season. If we do draft him (and by no means is that my preference) I don't think we hand him the ball and say "the team's yours kid, do your best". I think he's out there as a defensive roleplayer at the 2 guard spot who's expected to make smart passes on offense and occasionally exploit his ability to get in the lane when our first and second options can't get a good look. Yes the shooting will eventually be a problem if he can't get it to a respectable level but our defense has to be the priority and I like the look he gives us on that end of the floor.

What worries me more is that we bring in a guy like Trey Burke or CJ McCollum and they have to succeed at PG or they're deep rotation players. We've tried and failed with so many lead guards already that it's starting to feel like a never-ending treadmill. Assuming the plan is still to go forward with building around both Cousins and Evans, the guys that worry me the most in this draft are the ones who's value is tied mostly to their offensive potential. We don't really have a need for more scoring. Tighten up the rotation, play active team defense, and take smarter shots and most of the scoring is already accounted for. Now if you believe either of those guys is a superstar in the making, that's certainly a solid reason to draft them. I just don't see that personally. And a guy like Carter-Williams has got enough tools to contribute for a long time as a bench player. Nothing to really get excited about, but it's a tough draft. I'm still hoping someone better falls to us. And hopefully the Monta Ellis nonsense is just lazy writers making inferences that don't actually apply to our management. Because it's obvious he'd be a terrible fit for a coach who's built his career on teaching team defense and I have to believe our management is smarter than that.

Well this is a sort of rambling, subconcious, talking to yourself, kind of post! And I like it! You reminded me of myself when I'm mulling over a player. You watch a player play, and, at least for me, it has to feel right. Something has to click for me. And trust me, I have no agenda. I'm honestly excited to watch players play. Sometimes perhaps too much! Sort of like when everyone tells how great a movie is, and when you see it, your expectations are so high, your disappointed. The trick is, to come back and see that same movie again. Thats what its all about! I've had players that disappointed me the first time I saw them play, but the second time or the third time, I was impressed.

There in lies my problem with Michael Carter-Williams. He's never felt right to me. And believe me, I've tried to love this guy. He has the PR, and you can't argue with the results. But my gut tells me he's not as good as the results. My gut told me that Thomas Robinson wasn't as good as his press clippings, but I tried very hard to like him. How could my gut be right, when everyone else thought he was a good player. Uncia03 agreed with my gut, and there I was trying to convince him of something my gut disagreed with. Its not as though I've never been wrong. And believe me, if we draft him, like we did Thomas Robinson, I'm going to pray my gut is wrong.

Teams all too often bet on players with one special skill, and hope that he'll develop the other skills. In the long run, skilled players with very good BBIQ will be on the winning team most of the time. The move to the NBA from college is a giant step for most players. In the NBA, your weaknesses are exposed, and then feasted upon. As a point guard, your not out there against Don Smith, your out there exposed on the perimeter against Derrick Rose, or John Wall, or Chris Paul, and I could go on, and on. So lets say your a great passer. Most point guards make plays by penetrating the lane and causing the defense to collapse toward them. In Williams, you have a player, that at the college level, had a very hard time getting into the lane.
And please don't cherry pick his good games.

So now that I've matched your rambling with my own, I'll finish with just this, which Kingster likes. I've never had that WOW factor when watchng Michael Carter-Williams play. I've had that with Burke and McCollum, and Oladipo, and Porter. I think you get my drift. Off to bed!

 

[Chupacabra]

I've changed my mind about my pick in this draft. Previously I stated that I wanted McCollum, now I want Burke. If we've established that Evans and Cousins is our core then the goal is to insert complimentary pieces. We currently have 3 holes to fill; legit point guard, small forward and shot blocker that can defend power forwards . If Burke is available at our pick, and there's a good chance he will be, he would be the best player available at one of our positions of need. His P&R looks great, his shooting range is even better, his 1v1 dribble moves are very crafty and his long arms add to his effectiveness as a ball handler. McCollum, as has been previously stated, is primarily a scorer. If we're not picking Burke then it better damn well be a shot blocker. I don't care if its someone we've never heard of before.

 

[Kingster]

I'm very biased when it comes to Bennett, and I would take him over either of them. He's a very good athlete that already has a very good faceup game. Very explosive around the basket. I think he can play SF. He is only 6'7", but he has a huge wingspan and his standing reach is the same as guys that are 6'10", and is probably longer than Zellers. There are several players in this draft, that I would call safe picks. By that, I mean players that I feel very sure will be at minimun, good role players and at best, could be all stars sometime in the future. And I have Bennett on that list.

That's good to know. I haven't seen him play and know very little about him. So when you evaluate him for the SF position what are the attributes you're looking for and how does he match up against those?

 

[Kingster]

The thing is that Snell is moving up a lot of teams' boards so just because the mock drafts don't reflect that, it doesn't necessarily make it "not true".

I absolutely agree with you that if we identified Snell as the player we want, we might want to trade down and hopefully shed a contract along the way or get 2 first round picks (maybe Utah) and try and address 2 needs in one go BUT we don't really know how other teams rate this guy. His advanced stats are pretty good and he is exactly the sort of player we would be after as a SF. Very good spot up shooter and coming off screens (~48% from spot up 3 situations), moves the ball (3.7 apg per 40 mins), has potential to develop into a very good defender for position. He is sort of like Leonard a few years back (obviously not as highly rated) so who knows what other teams are thinking. They might rate him highly as well but we don't know that.

On surface, it looks odd but we don't know the full story behind it. Hopefully its a case of trading down, shedding some bad deals (Chuck and Outlaw) and getting a pick later in the first round to get a role player that fits or trading down for 2 draft picks and selecting 2 players that fit the need (SF and a shotblocker)

Makes sense. I also wonder whether having a GM from Denver who focused more on the lower first round might fit into this picture.

 

[Kingster]

Well this is a sort of rambling, subconcious, talking to yourself, kind of post! And I like it! You reminded me of myself when I'm mulling over a player. You watch a player play, and, at least for me, it has to feel right. Something has to click for me. And trust me, I have no agenda. I'm honestly excited to watch players play. Sometimes perhaps too much! Sort of like when everyone tells how great a movie is, and when you see it, your expectations are so high, your disappointed. The trick is, to come back and see that same movie again. Thats what its all about! I've had players that disappointed me the first time I saw them play, but the second time or the third time, I was impressed.

There in lies my problem with Michael Carter-Williams. He's never felt right to me. And believe me, I've tried to love this guy. He has the PR, and you can't argue with the results. But my gut tells me he's not as good as the results. My gut told me that Thomas Robinson wasn't as good as his press clippings, but I tried very hard to like him. How could my gut be right, when everyone else thought he was a good player. Uncia03 agreed with my gut, and there I was trying to convince him of something my gut disagreed with. Its not as though I've never been wrong. And believe me, if we draft him, like we did Thomas Robinson, I'm going to pray my gut is wrong.

Teams all too often bet on players with one special skill, and hope that he'll develop the other skills. In the long run, skilled players with very good BBIQ will be on the winning team most of the time. The move to the NBA from college is a giant step for most players. In the NBA, your weaknesses are exposed, and then feasted upon. As a point guard, your not out there against Don Smith, your out there exposed on the perimeter against Derrick Rose, or John Wall, or Chris Paul, and I could go on, and on. So lets say your a great passer. Most point guards make plays by penetrating the lane and causing the defense to collapse toward them. In Williams, you have a player, that at the college level, had a very hard time getting into the lane.And please don't cherry pick his good games.

So now that I've matched your rambling with my own, I'll finish with just this, which Kingster likes. I've never had that WOW factor when watchng Michael Carter-Williams play. I've had that with Burke and McCollum, and Oladipo, and Porter. I think you get my drift. Off to bed!

Absolutely no to MCW, Shabazz, and to a lesser degree Zeller. They are off the list.

MCW can't penetrate, can't shoot, isn't creative with the ball, has difficulty bringing the ball up under pressure; other than that, he's a great pg. Give him three or four years working on a jump shot, then play him as a good three. This draft has more to do with crossing guys off the list than underlining those names you want.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I have no issue with Snell if we trade for a late first or he falls to us in the second, but #7? No thanks. I have concerns with him, one being the fact that he keeps calling himself a shooting guard. He's not a good enough ball handler to play the 2, and he'd be a pretty terrible rebounder for a 3.

I like his potential as a role player. If he can become a very good defender and commit himself to rebounding and spacing the floor than he can be a solid contributor for any team, but he has little star potential and I think #7 would be a huge reach. Carter-Williams and Steven Adams are two players I know will be available at #7 that I know I'd take over Snell.

I've said my piece on MCW a million times. I like him. I like him with Evans, I like him with Cousins, I like him on offense, I like him on defense. I feel like people point to his offensive issues more than anything ... the fact that he 'can't finish' and 'can't shoot' which is fine, I get it. Our offense was fine last season. Scoring was not an issue and will not be an issue. Thomas and Salmons weren't spacing the floor for anyone last season and we were fine. With MCW all you have to do is find one SF who can really shoot and you are back to last years level of floor spacing at the least. Dorell Wright would be my top target out of the free agent small forwards, with Granger being my top trade target.

For those who don't want to draft MCW - would you rather have another year of Isaiah Thomas and Tyreke Evans? I think Thomas' shooting is completely overrated, and what little you lose from Thomas to MCW on offense you gain in ball movement, size, more shots for your big guns, and defense. I'd take that.

 

[Dime Dropper]

I'm really not impressed by Snell. I'd be OK with him in the 2nd, though there'll be other guys I'd prefer, but at 7 he'd be a waste of a pick. I hope there's nothing in that, because it'd be infuriating.

 

[Hallama]

I'm really not impressed by Snell. I'd be OK with him in the 2nd, though there'll be other guys I'd prefer, but at 7 he'd be a waste of a pick. I hope there's nothing in that, because it'd be infuriating.

If I'm reaching, I'm drafting Franklin, not Snell, not Timmy Jr.

 

[Dime Dropper]

If I'm reaching, I'm drafting Franklin, not Snell, not Timmy Jr.

If we're going to reach on a two guard, which would be silly, I'd certainly agree with you on that. I like Franklin.

 

[Gary]

Yeah, that's pretty much my take on MCW, terrible fit next to Tyreke and to a lesser extent, DeMarcus.

Conventional wisdom says you go BPA and don't draft based on fit, but if Evans and Cousins are viewed as cornerstones then you absolutely have to. I can only see Carter-Williams if the team is thinking they'll let Tyreke walk or worse yet that they'll say goodbye to Evabs to pair Ellis (a PG sized SG)in the backcourt with a SG sized PG.

As for Hardaway Jr & Snell it'd have to be a trade down move. And both guys are SGs. Snell insists every time he's asked that he's a 2 and not a 3. So if the interest from the Kings is true then either they ARE letting Evans walk or they are planning to move him back to the point and go big in the backcourt, pairing him with a guy who can shoot.

Interesting that you compare MCW to Tony Allen because I was trying to think of a good comparison. As it happens I was comparing two big PGs today - Jason Kidd and Ricky Rubio who had surpringly similar statistics their rookie years. Kidd actually had a worse 3pt% but a higher overall FG% which reinforces what my eyes told me, that Kidd finished better at the rim. Both were good defenders with quick hands to go along with their size. Both also had otherworldly court vision.

And that's where I struggle to see MCW being highly successful. He is a poor shooter and struggles to finish at the rim and while he might be a good defender as those two were/are (it's hard to judge due to playing in Boeheim's zone) the biggest difference is that Carter-Williams makes good decisions with the ball but isn't in the same league as Rubio/Kidd when it comes to court vision. A guy who can't score in the half court needs to be very special as a creator and MCW (in my opinion) isn't. In fact when defenses tightened and played him tough (quality competition) his assists dropped.

I'm just not high on MCW and I REALLY don't like him if Evans is re-signed.

Me neither. If we see MCW's name called then we are almost certain that Evans won't be back. If he was back then it would be a poor decision on the part of the FO because you don't draft MCW if you plan to keep Evans. If we draft a player that can play SF then you can probably say that Evans will be back.

EDIT: I shouldn't have highlighted the "Not high on MCW" part. I actually like his game, but I don't think he would be a good pairing with Evans.

 

[LPKingsFan]

The problem with planning around Evans, though, is that on draft day you really don't know how his free agency is going to unfold. Now, you may have an idea of what teams would be willing to pay, and what you think you can keep him for, but you don't really know.

 

[funkykingston]

The problem with planning around Evans, though, is that on draft day you really don't know how his free agency is going to unfold. Now, you may have an idea of what teams would be willing to pay, and what you think you can keep him for, but you don't really know.

True. And honestly if you think MCW is going to be a star then you draft him regardless and see how everything else shakes out. I simply don't see him as a star in the NBA AND I think he's a terrible fit IF Evans is retained which is two strikes against him.

 

[Padrino]

True. And honestly if you think MCW is going to be a star then you draft him regardless and see how everything else shakes out. I simply don't see him as a star in the NBA AND I think he's a terrible fit IF Evans is retained which is two strikes against him.

well, to be fair, who is a star at the 7th pick in this draft? the nba draft is often called a crapshoot, and this one might very well be the crapshoot of all crapshoots. so you either trade down for the sake of fit, or you draft BPA at #7 and go home. i'd prefer the former, because it could bring back a useful veteran roleplayer, but if all the kings end up doing is taking the guy they like the best once they're on the clock, it will be hard to take a stance of displeasure as a fan, because who the eff knows?

really, unless porter somehow slips to sacramento, it's hard to think of a win-win scenario for the kings at #7. they're a team already overstuffed with combo guards, but they'll likely end up picking one, anyway, because that's where BPA will undoubtedly guide d'allesandro, malone, and ranadive. MCW, burke, mccollum, whoever. plenty of pros and cons for each, and there is no "perfect fit" for this team in the '13 draft, regardless...

as long as d'allesandro/ranadive don't pull a petrie/maloofs, and trade down to draft an overhyped chucker while also bringing back a middling player on a bad contract, i'll likely be satisfied on draft day...

 

[Hallama]

really, unless porter somehow slips to sacramento, it's hard to think of a win-win scenario for the kings at #7. they're a team already overstuffed with combo guards, but they'll likely end up picking one, anyway, because that's where BPA will undoubtedly guide d'allesandro, malone, and ranadive. MCW, burke, mccollum, whoever. plenty of pros and cons for each, and there is no "perfect fit" for this team in the '13 draft, regardless...

This is one reason I like Zeller for the Kings. He's solid, a big, and can play a little bit in his rookie season. It also allows the Kings to use Chuck's or JT's or PPats contracts to get back a vet SF. I still want the Kings to resign Cole. Zeller isn't an ideal fit with Cousins, but he adds depth and a possible future starting NBA PF.

 

[Hallama]

If we're going to reach on a two guard, which would be silly, I'd certainly agree with you on that. I like Franklin.

In an unsure draft, one thing for certain is Franklin will get you extra possessions in a game. I mean, that's really important imo. Rebounds, steals, hustle, 50/50 balls. His shooting may not be that great, but if he gets you 2-3 extra possessions compared to another player, that is huge. He's like the guard version of Faried.

#7 is a reach, but if the Kings trade down or acquire the Mavs pick, then he's my #1 target after the 10th pick.

 

[bajaden]

I have no issue with Snell if we trade for a late first or he falls to us in the second, but #7? No thanks. I have concerns with him, one being the fact that he keeps calling himself a shooting guard. He's not a good enough ball handler to play the 2, and he'd be a pretty terrible rebounder for a 3.

I like his potential as a role player. If he can become a very good defender and commit himself to rebounding and spacing the floor than he can be a solid contributor for any team, but he has little star potential and I think #7 would be a huge reach. Carter-Williams and Steven Adams are two players I know will be available at #7 that I know I'd take over Snell.

I've said my piece on MCW a million times. I like him. I like him with Evans, I like him with Cousins, I like him on offense, I like him on defense. I feel like people point to his offensive issues more than anything ... the fact that he 'can't finish' and 'can't shoot' which is fine, I get it. Our offense was fine last season. Scoring was not an issue and will not be an issue. Thomas and Salmons weren't spacing the floor for anyone last season and we were fine. With MCW all you have to do is find one SF who can really shoot and you are back to last years level of floor spacing at the least. Dorell Wright would be my top target out of the free agent small forwards, with Granger being my top trade target.

For those who don't want to draft MCW - would you rather have another year of Isaiah Thomas and Tyreke Evans? I think Thomas' shooting is completely overrated, and what little you lose from Thomas to MCW on offense you gain in ball movement, size, more shots for your big guns, and defense. I'd take that.

Well, we agree on Dorell Wright. He would be a nice pickup. Obviously we don't agree on Williams, and I guess I'll just have to live with that. By the way, you do realize that Williams had the highest turnover rate of just about all the top rated PG's in the draft. Even McCollum, that you probably don't consider a PG, but was the primary ballhandler for Lehigh only turned the ball over 2.3 times a game. Burke led the nation in the fewest turnovers at 2.2 a game. Even Wolters only turned it over 2.3 times a game, and Wolters and Burke were both right up there in assists a game. Also, even though Williams is 5 inches taller than Burke, his standing reach is only 3 inches longer.

If I could have seen Williams play in more of an open court setting, maybe I'd move him up on my board, but offensively, he struggled in the halfcourt setting. He was great in the open court on a break. I wish him well, but I just don't want to gamble on him.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

The problem with planning around Evans, though, is that on draft day you really don't know how his free agency is going to unfold. Now, you may have an idea of what teams would be willing to pay, and what you think you can keep him for, but you don't really know.

hes a restricted free agent. means we have rights to match any offer he gets. it's not complicated at all

 

[hrdboild]

Well this is a sort of rambling, subconcious, talking to yourself, kind of post! And I like it! You reminded me of myself when I'm mulling over a player. You watch a player play, and, at least for me, it has to feel right. Something has to click for me. And trust me, I have no agenda. I'm honestly excited to watch players play. Sometimes perhaps too much! Sort of like when everyone tells how great a movie is, and when you see it, your expectations are so high, your disappointed. The trick is, to come back and see that same movie again. Thats what its all about! I've had players that disappointed me the first time I saw them play, but the second time or the third time, I was impressed.

There in lies my problem with Michael Carter-Williams. He's never felt right to me. And believe me, I've tried to love this guy. He has the PR, and you can't argue with the results. But my gut tells me he's not as good as the results. My gut told me that Thomas Robinson wasn't as good as his press clippings, but I tried very hard to like him. How could my gut be right, when everyone else thought he was a good player. Uncia03 agreed with my gut, and there I was trying to convince him of something my gut disagreed with. Its not as though I've never been wrong. And believe me, if we draft him, like we did Thomas Robinson, I'm going to pray my gut is wrong.

Teams all too often bet on players with one special skill, and hope that he'll develop the other skills. In the long run, skilled players with very good BBIQ will be on the winning team most of the time. The move to the NBA from college is a giant step for most players. In the NBA, your weaknesses are exposed, and then feasted upon. As a point guard, your not out there against Don Smith, your out there exposed on the perimeter against Derrick Rose, or John Wall, or Chris Paul, and I could go on, and on. So lets say your a great passer. Most point guards make plays by penetrating the lane and causing the defense to collapse toward them. In Williams, you have a player, that at the college level, had a very hard time getting into the lane.
And please don't cherry pick his good games.

So now that I've matched your rambling with my own, I'll finish with just this, which Kingster likes. I've never had that WOW factor when watchng Michael Carter-Williams play. I've had that with Burke and McCollum, and Oladipo, and Porter. I think you get my drift. Off to bed!

Heh, well I guess once I ran out of new ways to make the same basic argument I just abandoned the pretense altogether and started rambling instead. It's all just a very long-winded way of saying that these guys are probably on about the same level talent-wise, they just have differing strengths and weaknesses. And those differing styles of play are going to produce differing opinions, naturally, based on what your preferences are. For every person saying they can't understand why anyone wants a PG who can't shoot, turns over the ball, and has trouble finishing at the rim there's someone else to counter with his assist rate, steal totals, and rebounding numbers which are all stellar. He was miscast as the star of the team in college, but he might be a much better fit as a complimentary player in the pros. I'm not even arguing for MCW over Trey Burke and CJ McCollum so much as I'm saying that there's a valid argument for picking any of these guys.

And I agree with you that a lot of this is about gut reaction. Certain guys feel like they're going to succeed and other guys feel like they're bound to struggle. And that's a feeling you get from watching them play; it's not always backed up by the numbers. It's why I liked Tristan Thompson so much a couple years ago when most people didn't have him on their top 5 radar. I just got a feeling watching him play that he was almost always making the smart decision with his defensive rotations and that was an instinct which would serve him well in the NBA. I haven't exactly been right about him, but I haven't been wrong either. I think he's surpassed a lot of people's expectations though. Anyone who's honest with themselves has to admit that they're wrong as often as they're right, but that doesn't mean it's not fun to keep making predictions. Fortunately my career doesn't depend on my ability to guess right.

The only other thing I wanted to add is that the wow factor for me can be a double-edged sword with college players. Tyrus Thomas, Ike Diogu, Evan Turner, Johnny Flynn, and Jimmer Fredette all had wow factor for me. And sometimes that wow factor caused me to overlook some pretty fundamental flaws in their game that became much more apparent after they struggled to repeat that success in the NBA. So the question I always ask is which of the guys in this draft are going to continue to get better and which have already plateaued as impressive college players without NBA game. I feel really good about Oladipo and Porter translating their game to the NBA because both impress me as smart and hardworking players. Porter in particular impressed me in the same way that Tristan Thompson did. He was just always in the right position at the right time. Oladipo of course is a phenomenal athlete and a tenacious defender. What's not to like there? I don't know much about McCollum other than he's very well-spoken in his interviews. I never really had the wow factor with Burke. Even when he hit that crazy 30-footer to send the Kansas game to overtime I thought that was a bad shot. Incredible tournament moment, glad it went in, but still a bad shot to take in that situation with 6 seconds left on the clock and a defender right in his face. And for what it's worth, I did have the wow factor with Michael Carter-Williams personally, but only in the first month of the season against some weak competition.

 

[Kingster]

If the Kings are truly interested in Snell and Hardaway, that implies they want to go in another direction at 2-guard: they want a big guard who can shoot from the outside. I would think that Caldwell-Pope would also fit into this picture. Right?

 

[funkykingston]

If the Kings are truly interested in Snell and Hardaway, that implies they want to go in another direction at 2-guard: they want a big guard who can shoot from the outside. I would think that Caldwell-Pope would also fit into this picture. Right?

Depends on what you mean by "another direction". It could mean looking for a replacement for Tyreke or it could mean looking for a backcourt mate for Tyreke. If that were the case AND they really do like Hardaway and Snell then it would mean Evans back at PG.

We'll see.

But as for Kentavious Caldwell-Pope I'm a little surprised they haven't brought him in for a workout. I think he's more of a scorer who can shoot than a true shooter but still, he fits the mold of the other two guys to a large degree.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Well, we agree on Dorell Wright. He would be a nice pickup. Obviously we don't agree on Williams, and I guess I'll just have to live with that. By the way, you do realize that Williams had the highest turnover rate of just about all the top rated PG's in the draft. Even McCollum, that you probably don't consider a PG, but was the primary ballhandler for Lehigh only turned the ball over 2.3 times a game. Burke led the nation in the fewest turnovers at 2.2 a game. Even Wolters only turned it over 2.3 times a game, and Wolters and Burke were both right up there in assists a game. Also, even though Williams is 5 inches taller than Burke, his standing reach is only 3 inches longer.

If I could have seen Williams play in more of an open court setting, maybe I'd move him up on my board, but offensively, he struggled in the halfcourt setting. He was great in the open court on a break. I wish him well, but I just don't want to gamble on him.

I know we won't agree, and thats fine! I just feel compelled to defend 'my' players ... I wish I could stop that!

Heres my thing on the turnovers that I mentioned in another thread somewhere and lost it ..

Generally, if you get assists and try to create for others you turn the ball over. It's just part of the game. I'm not suggesting MCW doesn't need to improve his decision making because he does, however guys who I consider elite passers also lead the league in turnovers. Rajon Rondo, the league leading assist man at 11.1 APG also led the league in turnovers at 3.9 .. Grievis Vasquez 3rd in the league in assists, 7th in turnovers ... Jrue Holiday 4th in assists, 2nd in turnovers .. Rubio 10th in assists, 10th in turnovers. Those years Steve Nash was averaging 10+ assists he was always also in the high 3's for turnovers. You get the point. These numbers get even higher if you're just looking at point guards, but I was looking at assists and turnovers league wide.

That is how I would defend MCW on this point. It's an issue, but not a major one for me. If he was handling the ball, not getting assists AND turning it over I'd be a lot more concerned.

 

[Hallama]

If the Kings are truly interested in Snell and Hardaway, that implies they want to go in another direction at 2-guard: they want a big guard who can shoot from the outside. I would think that Caldwell-Pope would also fit into this picture. Right?

Malone just spent two seasons with Klay Thompson at SG - tall, good defender, and can shoot. However, I don't see a similar player in this draft that matches Thompson's no conscience shooting - he has no fear - maybe Hardaway, maybe Caldwell-Pope is the closest comp. C-P doesn't have all of the intangibles, but he does have a lot going for him including defense.

 

[funkykingston]

Malone just spent two seasons with Klay Thompson at SG - tall, good defender, and can shoot. However, I don't see a similar player in this draft that matches Thompson's no conscience shooting - he has no fear - maybe Hardaway, maybe Caldwell-Pope is the closest comp. C-P doesn't have all of the intangibles, but he does have a lot going for him including defense.

I think the natural inclination is to think Malone wants to recreate the success of Golden State and thus be looking for his version of Curry, his version of Thompson etc.

But once you start with the notion that everyone from Vivek to Malone to D'Alessandro is saying they want to build this team around Cousins I'd think that the notion of building Warrior Kings (trademark pending) would go out the window. Instead I'd think the first litmus test for draft picks would be how they fit with Big Cuz (and potentially Tyreke if they plan to push hard to keep him) rather than being a poor man's Steph or Klay.