Warriors @ Kings 12/20/11 Preseason Finale Game Thread

[Kingster]

And again, I guess you just did not wtch the first two preseason games at all. Take it form someone who idd -- Reke has looked noticeably different. Not better. Different. He VERY obviously has been getting rid of the ball much more quickly. Too quickly if you are going to go off and average 10 assists. He has notched 7 ast in each game (while taking far fewer shots then he has in the past (10 one game, 12 the next), and he's thrown a bunch of bad passes trying to rack up more. This is not an argument that he has been terribly effective in this new role. But the new role has been perfectly obvious for anyone watching. Or at least the attempts at the new role. As I mentioend above, the dribbling over halfcourt and immediately passing it off to Thronton or Jimmer or whoever looks like a passive attempt to meet some sort of unselfishness criteria. It can't be what we are actually looking for, and whether this extreme strategy works or not will depend entirely on whether Reke figures out that in order to get 10ast a night you have to be jsut as aggressive as you are to get 20pts a night.

I've seen the games. He looked like he has in the past - confused. Sometimes he overdribbles, sometimes he makes the quick meaningless pass to the perimeter. it's the same tune. It's not an extreme strategy. It's the same strategy. It's just different psychology. But they need to add a strategic element to the psycholgogy. They need to get him the ball at the wing. They need to get it to him closer to the basket. At that point he can do a very simple thing: either turn and go or bully a short jumper. He's lost when he's out there at the top of the key.

 

[Bricklayer]

I've seen the games. He looked like he has in the past - confused. Sometimes he overdribbles, sometimes he makes the quick meaningless pass to the perimeter. it's the same tune. It's not an extreme strategy. It's the same strategy. It's just different psychology. But they need to add a strategic element to the psycholgogy. They need to get him the ball at the wing. They need to get it to him closer to the basket. At that point he can do a very simple thing: either turn and go or bully a short jumper. He's lost when he's out there at the top of the key.

He's not lost. He's in attack position. Your fascination with getting one of the msot dominant ballhandlers in the game to certian spots of the floor begfore getting him the ball is strange/ In particular if we are trying to use him as an attacking PG. He can get anywhere on the floor he wants to go against single coverage. And if his job is to draw doubles and kick the best place to do that is from the middle of the floor where he's got angles to al his teammates. Until he gets the jumper down, he's never going to be much of a pick and roll guy. We haven't consistently used his post ability to date, and even if we were, it would be a radical thing indeed to start running post offense through your PG on the block. That's what Cousins is for anyway. Meanwhile what Reke can do better than just about anyone in the league is sqaure somebody up out top and then blow right by him.

 

[Kingster]

He's not lost. He's in attack position. Your fascination with getting one of the msot dominant ballhandlers in the game to certian spots of the floor begfore getting him the ball is strange/ In particular if we are trying to use him as an attacking PG. He can get anywhere on the floor he wants to go against single coverage. And if his job is to draw doubles and kick the best place to do that is from the middle of the floor where he's got angles to al his teammates. Until he gets the jumper down, he's never going to be much of a pick and roll guy. We haven't consistently used his post ability to date, and even if we were, it would be a radical thing indeed to start running post offense through your PG on the block. That's what Cousins is for anyway. Meanwhile what Reke can do better than just about anyone in the league is sqaure somebody up out top and then blow right by him.

I think you and I have different ideas on what a "ballhandler" is. Tyreke's ballhandling at the top of the key hasn't been very good, don't you agree?

I don't pretend to know with a capital K what the answer is, but I'd definitely like to see experimentation with Tyreke at the wing, and especially with him closer to the basket. First, it would make it much more difficult for the opposing team to wall off his drives like they do from the top of the key. Second, if Tyreke chose to shoot a shorter turnaround jumper, it would in fact would be shorter, and with Tyreke I think that's preferable to 20-25' jump shots. (He should have been working on a "short game" this entire off-season). Third, with one long stride he could be past his man for a layup. Fourth, it simplifies the game for him, and based on my observation, he's not at his best when he's not in a fairly simple situation on the floor. Fifth, he would be in a better position for rebounding. Maybe it wouldn't work, but I think it would be worth a try. And even it does work, that doesn't mean that that will be his role for his entire NBA career. It just means that it's a starting point from which he can build. Get good at his "short game", then extend his game to the periphery.

 

[Glenn]

I have a dirty little secret. I don't know what Tyreke should do. What I DO know is that he is a unique and gifted athlete. He has ONE skill rarely matched in the history of the NBA. He is tall for his position, athletic, and has handles. He can finish at the basket in a way seldom seen in the NBA.

Before anyone responds to what I say, answer this: do you agree with my initial observations?

Other obervations: he has not developed a reliable three point shot, he has no pull up jumper, he can't shoot a floater or a finger roll for that matter. All those things that would have made him all world are simply not there. Am I accurate? He also may not be very bright or as people like to say, he may have a low basketball IQ. He certainly isn't a verbal leader.

So now what do we ask of him and even as important, what do we expect of the other guys on the court? Tyreke has not been playing in a vacuum. This year, he has a team that can make far more use of his ability to draw and kick or to dish. He has Marcus, Jimmer, Salmons, and Cuz. This is better than his rookie year.

I have a bias. When an athlete has a special skill, use that skill and if possible, expand off the special skill. I do not think it is effective to tell this player to quit using the special skill that makes him unique. It's like telling Jimmer to quit shooting threes.

I'm going to leave this as it is. I am frustrated by what I read. Some makes a lot of sense, most makes some sense, and some seems off base and even personal for some reason.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think you and I have different ideas on what a "ballhandler" is. Tyreke's ballhandling at the top of the key hasn't been very good, don't you agree?

Uh, he's generally considered to have one of the 5 best handles in the game, and when healthy is perhaps the premier to the basket player in the entire league (led entire league in baskets at the rim as a rookie).

 

[IfAt1st]

He can get anywhere on the floor he wants to go against single coverage.

No, he can't.

Meanwhile what Reke can do better than just about anyone in the league is sqaure somebody up out top and then blow right by him.

I disagree - in an upcoming game, I will try to count the times he gets the ball out top, and does not blow by them.

Then we can come back and talk about the % of times he gets by his man and scores the basket or gets a good pass off.

 

[Lockehead]

Uh, he's generally considered to have one of the 5 best handles in the game, and when healthy is perhaps the premier to the basket player in the entire league (led entire league in baskets at the rim as a rookie).

He probably has THE best handles, when it comes to a STREETBALL game. In the NBA? Well, in the first game of the preseason i saw Reke stumble and fall 3 times from overdribbling/ trying to get too fancy with his handles. What does that say about his handles? At least from an NBA standpoint.

 

[Lockehead]

I have a dirty little secret. I don't know what Tyreke should do. What I DO know is that he is a unique and gifted athlete. He has ONE skill rarely matched in the history of the NBA. He is tall for his position, athletic, and has handles. He can finish at the basket in a way seldom seen in the NBA.

Before anyone responds to what I say, answer this: do you agree with my initial observations?

Other obervations: he has not developed a reliable three point shot, he has no pull up jumper, he can't shoot a floater or a finger roll for that matter. All those things that would have made him all world are simply not there. Am I accurate? He also may not be very bright or as people like to say, he may have a low basketball IQ. He certainly isn't a verbal leader.

So now what do we ask of him and even as important, what do we expect of the other guys on the court? Tyreke has not been playing in a vacuum. This year, he has a team that can make far more use of his ability to draw and kick or to dish. He has Marcus, Jimmer, Salmons, and Cuz. This is better than his rookie year.

I have a bias. When an athlete has a special skill, use that skill and if possible, expand off the special skill. I do not think it is effective to tell this player to quit using the special skill that makes him unique. It's like telling Jimmer to quit shooting threes.

I'm going to leave this as it is. I am frustrated by what I read. Some makes a lot of sense, most makes some sense, and some seems off base and even personal for some reason.

I do agree that he is unique and gifted, but in what sense? As a PG? Or as a SG? I think that is an important question when it comes to Tyreke. What are his most obvious deficiencies? Overdribbling, confusion, standing around? Where does that come from? Is it because he's caught up in this PG mindstate?

On another note, what if he had been designated as a SG since his sophomore year? Would other qualities, such as doing back door cuts, shooting jumpshots, scoring and setting up teammates, be more developed as they are now? Are those the qualities we want to see in Reke?

Is Reke confused about his position? And is that confusion doing more harm than good to not only himself, but also to the team?

I think it IS. He has been given, or handed, this mentality that he is first and foremost a PG. That he should be creating and setting up other players. I have for a year or two, believed that he should've been working on his scoring skills. His phenomenal passing abilities were only a bonus and would only develop naturally as he gained experience. But that wasn't the direction that Reke had moved towards. Instead, the main arguments we see about Reke are his decision making, his overdribblin, his lack of teamplay. Is that because he has / was given the mentality that he's "just a guard"? Or maybe more specifically, a potential "point guard" ? What if him being a SG was and is the right direction for him to follow? Afterall, i would not argue that he is naturally a scorer. He already has his driving/slashing game unmatched with the ball in his hands. What if he had developed his cutting/ jumpshot skills in his sophomore year? What if there was another player who was relegated to the "PG" role and allowed Tyreke to play the "SG" role? How much better would we be?

 

[TehSwimGuy]

How tall is Evans compared to C-Webb? I always imagined him as a better version of C-Webb when Evans reaches full potential. Webb with even more distance, but great around the rim. With a little more muscle, could he handle a PF position?

 

[Lockehead]

Is that a joke?

Evans is a guard, he relies on his driving abilities to create and score, at least for now.
Cwebb is 6'9 - 6'10. Reke is 6'5 - 6'6.

If anything Cousins will be the next Webb before Reke.

 

[Kingster]

Uh, he's generally considered to have one of the 5 best handles in the game, and when healthy is perhaps the premier to the basket player in the entire league (led entire league in baskets at the rim as a rookie).

Again, you're not defining what you mean by "ballhandler". Seven turnovers in a game isn't good ballhandling in my opinion. Neither is throwing meaningless passes to players on the periphery. Neither is dribbling-dribbling-dribbling before making a ballhandling decision. So I'm very confused about where you are coming up with he's in the top 5 in the league in ballhandling. Now, if you are strictly limiting your definition to his ability to drive on fast breaks, then sure, not many guards can do what he does in the open court. But I thought we were talking about our half court offense. Please clarify.

 

[Glenn]

Tyreke can dribble though a crowd. At some point a person simply can't be any more clear in what is said.

 

[Bricklayer]

Again, you're not defining what you mean by "ballhandler". Seven turnovers in a game isn't good ballhandling in my opinion. Neither is throwing meaningless passes to players on the periphery. Neither is dribbling-dribbling-dribbling before making a ballhandling decision. So I'm very confused about where you are coming up with he's in the top 5 in the league in ballhandling. Now, if you are strictly limiting your definition to his ability to drive on fast breaks, then sure, not many guards can do what he does in the open court. But I thought we were talking about our half court offense. Please clarify.

I think I've clarified quite well enough. Using BTW the commonly accepted definition of "ballhandling". You ask the who is the best ballhandler question in the NBA question on any general forum and Tyreke will be ranked right at the top. Your convenient definiton is nonsensical. Its like saying JWill wasn't one of the most briliant passers we have seen because he turned it over too much. Or Cousins for that matter. Below average NBA passer, after all he turns it over.

Decisionmaking is not ballhandling. Its not passing. Its decisionmaking. Its also something that improves over time. You can lock Derek Fisher in a gym for the rest of his life and he will never be able to remotely approach what Reke can do with the ball. Its a gift born of a 3yr odl dribbling an oversized ball wiht him everywhere he goes. On the other hand through the natural course of time Reke, or any young player, will naturally start making beter decisions. It in fact is one of the major advantages older guys have over younger ones.

 

[Telemachus]

Again, you're not defining what you mean by "ballhandler". Seven turnovers in a game isn't good ballhandling in my opinion. Neither is throwing meaningless passes to players on the periphery. Neither is dribbling-dribbling-dribbling before making a ballhandling decision. So I'm very confused about where you are coming up with he's in the top 5 in the league in ballhandling. Now, if you are strictly limiting your definition to his ability to drive on fast breaks, then sure, not many guards can do what he does in the open court. But I thought we were talking about our half court offense. Please clarify.

Most of Evens TOs have come from bad decision making with his passing. I would not consider that to be ball-handling. When most refer to a player's handles, they are talking about his dribbling ability and Tyreke has few who can match him.

 

[mac]

Most of Evens TOs have come from bad decision making with his passing. I would not consider that to be ball-handling. When most refer to a player's handles, they are talking about his dribbling ability and Tyreke has few who can match him.

Exactly. Tyreke's turnovers come primarily from bad passes, travelling/palming calls and charges. He rarely ever turns the ball over dribbling.

 

[swisshh]

Reke has great handles, but he doesn't do anything useful with them. Someone needs to send Jerry Reynolds a tape of himself trashing Iverson and others for all their wasted dribbles, and then replay every time he praises Reke.

Reke throws late passes, almost always. His pass TOs in the last preseason game were often from being too late. They were behind the player cutting or the defense was able to get there in time.

 

[Kingster]

Tyreke can dribble though a crowd. At some point a person simply can't be any more clear in what is said.

So ballhander = good dribbler through a crowd?

Excuse me. Ballhandler to me implies more than dribbling; it's also passing and decision making. So maybe clarification is needed.

 

[Kingster]

I think I've clarified quite well enough. Using BTW the commonly accepted definition of "ballhandling". You ask the who is the best ballhandler question in the NBA question on any general forum and Tyreke will be ranked right at the top. Your convenient definiton is nonsensical. Its like saying JWill wasn't one of the most briliant passers we have seen because he turned it over too much. Or Cousins for that matter. Below average NBA passer, after all he turns it over.

Decisionmaking is not ballhandling. Its not passing. Its decisionmaking. Its also something that improves over time. You can lock Derek Fisher in a gym for the rest of his life and he will never be able to remotely approach what Reke can do with the ball. Its a gift born of a 3yr odl dribbling an oversized ball wiht him everywhere he goes. On the other hand through the natural course of time Reke, or any young player, will naturally start making beter decisions. It in fact is one of the major advantages older guys have over younger ones.

And what is the commonly accepted definition of ballhandling? This is ridiculous. Glenn says ballhandling is dribbling and thinks everybody knows that. You don't even say what it is, but just say "commonly accepted definition"; then you include passing; then you infer that turnovers don't really matter; then you imply decision making, implying that that of course will be corrected over time, but that great ballhandlers are great turnover makers. QUIT WASTING MY TIME.

 

[Bricklayer]

And what is the commonly accepted definition of ballhandling? This is ridiculous. Glenn says ballhandling is dribbling and thinks everybody knows that. You don't even say what it is, but just say "commonly accepted definition"; then you include passing; then you infer that turnovers don't really matter; then you imply decision making, implying that that of course will be corrected over time, but that great ballhandlers are great turnover makers. QUIT WASTING MY TIME.

You appear to have left reasonableness behind about three turnoffs ago. You don't like that I pinned you into either having to say that JWill wasn't a good passer or admitting that you are wrong about Reke as a ballhandler so you deliberately pretend to misinterpret my post? That's beneath you.

And its very nice that you have your own definition of what ballhandling means. Maybe you can add in rebounding and free throw shooting as well to make it truly comprehensive. But everyone, including you btw, knows exactly what it actually means in common parlance -- what can a guy do/where can a guy get to with the ball. And trying to make up your own rules so as to denigrate a player you don't like is again a pretty silly extreme to go to. I'll chalk it up to holiday related stress and let it go at that.