Warriors @ Kings 12/20/11 Preseason Finale Game Thread
- Thread starter MassachusettsKingsFan
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No, I just gave you too much credit. There are things that contribute to winning and there are ways to play the game that lead to winning. Reke is not a part of that formula. He's had three years to grow beyond dribble-drive-mania and has not. You can sit around for years and wait and hope for him to become something you think he might someday be, but that would be wasting the talent around him.
If he's not Derrick Rose or even Brandon Roy, and he can't play without the ball in his hands then he can't be a focus of your team. You will waste years and talent for no good reason. This is how things go in the NBA. You know why fans were done with Webber? Because Webber's career was done. He never mattered after the Kings traded him. You know why the fans were done with Peja and Martin? Because they were not #1 guys and they, by themselves, did little beyond scoring, You can't focus your team around them, so you either get someone else to go with them or you move on.
It's like baking a cake, but the Kings never get all the ingredients. You got to go and get the right ingredients. You don't just stick a half-assed cake in the oven and wait around until it burns.
If he's not Derrick Rose or even Brandon Roy, and he can't play without the ball in his hands then he can't be a focus of your team. You will waste years and talent for no good reason. This is how things go in the NBA. You know why fans were done with Webber? Because Webber's career was done. He never mattered after the Kings traded him. You know why the fans were done with Peja and Martin? Because they were not #1 guys and they, by themselves, did little beyond scoring, You can't focus your team around them, so you either get someone else to go with them or you move on.
It's like baking a cake, but the Kings never get all the ingredients. You got to go and get the right ingredients. You don't just stick a half-assed cake in the oven and wait around until it burns.
Your difficulty is that you actually don't seem to watch many modern NBA games. If you did you would realize just how devastatingly effective dribble drive mania as you say can be. Three of the four Conference Finals teams last year featured dribble drive maniacs at the helm (or effectively so in Miami's case). Attack, attack, attack and attack. With the rules tweaks and dearth of post players in the modern game, its become the modern post attack, based on the same theory that dominating the paint = winning the game.
And yes, you wait for that cake to cook. This one is so raw its actually younger than our star rookie.
And yes, you wait for that cake to cook. This one is so raw its actually younger than our star rookie.
Eh I actually agree with him, I'm all for Reke turning into that #1 scorer we've wanted for a long time but he's gotta add a lot to his game. I don't really think he's a LeBron type of player where he's so big and strong he can get whatever shot he wants at will, and he doesn't have the quickness or explosiveness of a DWade either. He's more of a stop and go type of guy with good handles, but there is still time for other players to get into the lane and converge on him. He really needs a post up game, or a reliable jumpshot from 15-18 feet out at least. These are areas of his game he really needs to improve. I'm a huge Reke fan but any nonbiased observer with a brain and a pair of eyes can see he's not a PG. IMO he's a 2 or a 3, probably a 3. With Jimmer and Thornton out there, he atleast has some spacing to get what he wants. He's 6'6'' 220, that's plenty enough size to play 3.
I think Evans can help this team, but i just think we are utilizing him to much, especially with all the talent we have. It honestly must be annoying for the other teammates, I know because i hate playing with over-dribblers.. Move the damn ball around, get the whole team involved and everyoness confidence goes up. our offense seems like the exact opposite of the golden days right now.
I dont blame Cuz for tonights game, he had a bad game and it was his first back against a speedy team. He'll bounce back.
And whoever said its either Reke with a Great or Bad game no middle ground, and its awesome that way.. I disagree. We have so many great players on this team, we dont need Reke to Drop 20,5,5 every game, we need him to FIND that middle ground where he dosent have to be Michael Jordan every game. He could have a great game but the team may still lose. Sometimes a great player just needs to step back for the greater good of the team. We have so much talent if Reke just has SOLID games without trying to overdo it, we can still win.
I may seem like a Reke hater, but i'm not. I want him to succeed just as much as any other fan. From all the things in life that have inspired me to become a better person, tough love was the one that pushed me the hardest to succeed. it sucks but its true.
its only been two preseason games, so i'm cutting him and the coach the benefit of the doubt right now, but if we play like tonight in the regular season, we're going to lose 99% of the time.
I dont blame Cuz for tonights game, he had a bad game and it was his first back against a speedy team. He'll bounce back.
And whoever said its either Reke with a Great or Bad game no middle ground, and its awesome that way.. I disagree. We have so many great players on this team, we dont need Reke to Drop 20,5,5 every game, we need him to FIND that middle ground where he dosent have to be Michael Jordan every game. He could have a great game but the team may still lose. Sometimes a great player just needs to step back for the greater good of the team. We have so much talent if Reke just has SOLID games without trying to overdo it, we can still win.
I may seem like a Reke hater, but i'm not. I want him to succeed just as much as any other fan. From all the things in life that have inspired me to become a better person, tough love was the one that pushed me the hardest to succeed. it sucks but its true.
its only been two preseason games, so i'm cutting him and the coach the benefit of the doubt right now, but if we play like tonight in the regular season, we're going to lose 99% of the time.
Ugly win but a fun game. This team is going to be really exciting once they get everyone on the same page. Disappointing to see Cousins revert back to his forcing it mode from last year. He needs to chill and let the game come to him. Hickson was a nice surprise. Jimmer should be the PG. This team actually has some pretty nice depth.
Awww... 
This has yet to be proven.
Dec 2011 - Nov 2009 = three years? That must be that new math...
Did the talent around him win something, and I missed it? Unless I'm mistaken, nobody on this team has ever won anything, and less than half (counting Dalembert) have ever even sniffed the playoffs. Any discussion of what these players can do, with or without Evans, is purely speculation, with nothing to back it up.
We know what the 2011-12 preseason Kings have done with Evans; we do not know what they can do without him, but there is no reason to believe that they would be any better, since they only numbers we have to go on are the games that the Kings have played without Evans during his career (incidentally, since 2009-10, the Kings are .318 when Evans plays, and .229 when he doesn't).
Ultimately, since we don't actually know, all we can do is guess. Our guesses aren't adding up to equal the same thing. But, since you think 2011-2009 = 3, I'm disinclined to think that I'm the one who's doing his math wrong.
This has yet to be proven.
Dec 2011 - Nov 2009 = three years? That must be that new math...
Did the talent around him win something, and I missed it? Unless I'm mistaken, nobody on this team has ever won anything, and less than half (counting Dalembert) have ever even sniffed the playoffs. Any discussion of what these players can do, with or without Evans, is purely speculation, with nothing to back it up.
We know what the 2011-12 preseason Kings have done with Evans; we do not know what they can do without him, but there is no reason to believe that they would be any better, since they only numbers we have to go on are the games that the Kings have played without Evans during his career (incidentally, since 2009-10, the Kings are .318 when Evans plays, and .229 when he doesn't).
Ultimately, since we don't actually know, all we can do is guess. Our guesses aren't adding up to equal the same thing. But, since you think 2011-2009 = 3, I'm disinclined to think that I'm the one who's doing his math wrong.
Awww...
This has yet to be proven.
Dec 2011 - Nov 2009 = three years? That must be that new math...
Did the talent around him win something, and I missed it? Unless I'm mistaken, nobody on this team has ever won anything, and less than half (counting Dalembert) have ever even sniffed the playoffs. Any discussion of what these players can do, with or without Evans, is purely speculation, with nothing to back it up.
We know what the 2011-12 preseason Kings have done with Evans; we do not know what they can do without him, but there is no reason to believe that they would be any better, since they only numbers we have to go on are the games that the Kings have played without Evans during his career (incidentally, since 2009-10, the Kings are .318 when Evans plays, and .229 when he doesn't).
Ultimately, since we don't actually know, all we can do is guess. Our guesses aren't adding up to equal the same thing. But, since you think 2011-2009 = 3, I'm disinclined to think that I'm the one who's doing his math wrong.
This has yet to be proven.
Dec 2011 - Nov 2009 = three years? That must be that new math...
Did the talent around him win something, and I missed it? Unless I'm mistaken, nobody on this team has ever won anything, and less than half (counting Dalembert) have ever even sniffed the playoffs. Any discussion of what these players can do, with or without Evans, is purely speculation, with nothing to back it up.
We know what the 2011-12 preseason Kings have done with Evans; we do not know what they can do without him, but there is no reason to believe that they would be any better, since they only numbers we have to go on are the games that the Kings have played without Evans during his career (incidentally, since 2009-10, the Kings are .318 when Evans plays, and .229 when he doesn't).
Ultimately, since we don't actually know, all we can do is guess. Our guesses aren't adding up to equal the same thing. But, since you think 2011-2009 = 3, I'm disinclined to think that I'm the one who's doing his math wrong.
Kindly direct me to the portion of any of my posts where I stated, or otherwise implied, that the objective of the team should for the team to "help" or revolve around Evans. I believe what I said was that the time that he's been in the league (which has essentially been a season and a half, considering his injuries) is not adequate time to determine whether or not he can help the team, and two preseason games is certainly not enough time to anoint our shiny new rookie as the "leader," and tell the previous leader to "kick rocks."
Perhaps Evans isn't supposed to be the leader of this team. My point is that we have not, to this point, found anyone on this team to be more qualified...
Perhaps Evans isn't supposed to be the leader of this team. My point is that we have not, to this point, found anyone on this team to be more qualified...
I would like you to point me to the possessios in this game where Evans dribbled aroudn for 12-15 seconds at a time. I can think of 1, and possibly 2, both in the 4th quarter.
If anything he wasn't aggressive ENOUGH for the first three quarters, was quite clearly trying to fit in to whatever it is that we are doing, and was nervously unloading the ball at the first sign of resistance. All of whihc sounds like coaching/an offensive scheme to me, and all of whihc was clearly causing Reke to overthink himself into passivity. Then someone says something to him after he goes to the bench in the 3rd, and he comes out in an entirely different mode and sloppy as it was we lurch back to life and win it.
As an aside, if anythign Reke has been giving himself up too much in this first few feel it out games. He took 10 shots in the first game. 12 in the second. Meanwhile he notched 7 assists in both games, and in this won 6 of those 7 turnovers were bad pass turnovers. You don't give a guy credit for throwing bad passes, but they were passes, not dribbling errors or turning it over in traffic. There has been a notable attempt by him to do play differently so far, and combined with him also taking the other team's best scorer both nights he's had easily the most responsiblities on the team.
If anything he wasn't aggressive ENOUGH for the first three quarters, was quite clearly trying to fit in to whatever it is that we are doing, and was nervously unloading the ball at the first sign of resistance. All of whihc sounds like coaching/an offensive scheme to me, and all of whihc was clearly causing Reke to overthink himself into passivity. Then someone says something to him after he goes to the bench in the 3rd, and he comes out in an entirely different mode and sloppy as it was we lurch back to life and win it.
As an aside, if anythign Reke has been giving himself up too much in this first few feel it out games. He took 10 shots in the first game. 12 in the second. Meanwhile he notched 7 assists in both games, and in this won 6 of those 7 turnovers were bad pass turnovers. You don't give a guy credit for throwing bad passes, but they were passes, not dribbling errors or turning it over in traffic. There has been a notable attempt by him to do play differently so far, and combined with him also taking the other team's best scorer both nights he's had easily the most responsiblities on the team.
Tyreke looked to me (in the first half) like a player who knew he was in a preseason game. In the second half, he seemed to turn things up a bit on both sides of the floor. The Kings as a whole (with Tyreke and Cousins being the biggest culprits) made a lot of "unforced" TOs tonight. Too many passes trying to thread the needle, or making one passs too many. These are the type of things you see in pick up games and hope they don't continue into the regular season. Cousins looked more out of sync than trying to do to much IMO. At least these are the type of TOs that are the easiest to clean up.
Tyreke is a drive to the basket scorer. That is his greatest strength, and if a coach is supposed to tailor a strategy to his players' strenths, then that strategy must include Tyreke going strong to the hoop. He actually is helped by the fact that Jimmer and Marcus are exceptional outside options. Tonight, for instance, the warriors seemed to decide that they were going to try to limit Jimmer's outside shot by actually double and sometimes triple teaming him out beyond the arc. That often left Tyreke with a single guy on him, and he HAS to exploit that. If he does, then that means the other team has to try to adjust and perhaps the next time Tyreke will be doubled and Jimmer will get the open look. I thought tonight that Jimmer was equally effective for us even though he didn't score as much because having him out there keeps the other team's defense honest. It helped a guy like Hickson with a rather raw offensive talent be able to get so many looks inside.
A team needs slashers to set up big men down low, and sharpshooters outside. A team needs sharpshooters to open up the paint for big men down low and slashers. And a team needs big men down low, well, you know where i am going. We have Tyreke and Salmons as slashers, Marcus and Jimmer as our outside threats, and now Sammy and Cousins as the bigs. They are all necessary.
On another note, Hickson looked huge and I was pleasantly surprised by Outlaw's size too. I think Donte, Garcia and JT should ride the bench for awhile and lets see these athletic guys try to gel.
A team needs slashers to set up big men down low, and sharpshooters outside. A team needs sharpshooters to open up the paint for big men down low and slashers. And a team needs big men down low, well, you know where i am going. We have Tyreke and Salmons as slashers, Marcus and Jimmer as our outside threats, and now Sammy and Cousins as the bigs. They are all necessary.
On another note, Hickson looked huge and I was pleasantly surprised by Outlaw's size too. I think Donte, Garcia and JT should ride the bench for awhile and lets see these athletic guys try to gel.
Word. 100% word. That's one reason it might be more natural position for Reke at 3. I have absolutely no doubt he can play SF and maybe even at all-star level. Imagine if he was not having to do so much of Kings offense set-ups and could just linger around baseline and have pick after pick set for him for devastating slashes to the rim. Bingo - that's the ticket! Opps, my bad. Kings have a glut of SFs on their current roster - as usual
Reke sure brings out the arguments doesn't he? What I saw tonight was Reke passing the ball at the first opportunity and twice over-dribbling late in the game. The offense seemed determined to try to keep the ball out of his hands. I do not say that in a bad way but as a way of solving the significant problem of Reke's dribbling stagnanting the offense. I thought the team looked much better. If Reke can be satisfied with 15 ppg, he'll do just fine.
Hickson did a 180 from his last performance. He really looked like a player who could help us. Thornton had some good passes and shots. Jimmer was good. Outlaw looked good. Everybody else either made a negative impact on the game, or almost no impact. I was pleased to see Cousins was in better shape than last year. He did start off the year with stupid plays.... I know, it's a process....
Word. 100% word. That's one reason it might be more natural position for Reke at 3. I have absolutely no doubt he can play SF and maybe even at all-star level. Imagine if he was not having to do so much of Kings offense set-ups and could just linger around baseline and have pick after pick set for him for devastating slashes to the rim. Bingo - that's the ticket! Opps, my bad. Kings have a glut of SFs on their current roster - as usual
The real issue is the fanbase having unrealistic expectations, and then when reality sets in that the players aren't as good as they think, they get upset at the players for not fulfilling their expectations.
Case in point: Evans. To many people here, they expected him to be the franchise cornerstone / floor leader that the team could build around. The reality is that he isn't that good, isn't as versatile of a player on offense to merit that distinction, and will probably never sniff an all-star selection.
Case in point: Evans. To many people here, they expected him to be the franchise cornerstone / floor leader that the team could build around. The reality is that he isn't that good, isn't as versatile of a player on offense to merit that distinction, and will probably never sniff an all-star selection.