Warriors @ Kings 12/20/11 Preseason Finale Game Thread

[IfAt1st]

The real issue is the fanbase having unrealistic expectations, and then when reality sets in that the players aren't as good as they think, they get upset ^^^^at the players for not fulfilling their expectations^^^ at the KF posters who point it out.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Bricklayer]

The real issue is the fanbase having unrealistic expectations, and then when reality sets in that the players aren't as good as they think, they get upset at the players for not fulfilling their expectations.

Case in point: Evans. To many people here, they expected him to be the franchise cornerstone / floor leader that the team could build around. The reality is that he isn't that good, isn't as versatile of a player on offense to merit that distinction, and will probably never sniff an all-star selection.

Silly silly silly.

If the Kings win 45 games in Reke's rookie season, he is already probably an All Star. Well, not as a rookie because of the unwritten rule, but with that performance.

Kings fans are emo.

 

[est.1999]

The real issue is the fanbase having unrealistic expectations, and then when reality sets in that the players aren't as good as they think, they get upset at the players for not fulfilling their expectations.

Case in point: Evans. To many people here, they expected him to be the franchise cornerstone / floor leader that the team could build around. The reality is that he isn't that good, isn't as versatile of a player on offense to merit that distinction, and will probably never sniff an all-star selection.

Hahaha, dumbest thing I've read in a long time.

 

[Kingsguy881]

The reality is that he isn't that good, isn't as versatile of a player on offense to merit that distinction, and will probably never sniff an all-star selection.

THAT is sig worthy right there.

 

[IfAt1st]

Silly silly silly.

Brick, it's not silly.

It's reality thus far.

Tyreke has not been the player he was in his rookie year since, well... his rookie year.

Last year was filled with persistent injuries (ongoing planar fascitis would be career-altering to a player of his gamestyle) which alone questions his ability to become what you and many others expect him to become, let alone the mental step-backs he has exhibited since last year.

This year, he has not shown the ability to penetrate like he did his rookie season, and his decision-making is just as bad as last year.

I am NOT saying that Tyreke will not, or can not get better - what I (and I think others) are saying is that anyone who is ASSUMING he will magically become this dominant, all-star player will have to eventually come to grips with what has been shown on the court, if it continues.

 

[Entity]

17 pts 7 ast 4 reb in a very awful performance by tyreke is still pretty good considering we have other scorers now.

 

[Kingster]

17 pts 7 ast 4 reb in a very awful performance by tyreke is still pretty good considering we have other scorers now.

His performance was poor. 7 turnovers kills you. Stopping the ball with dribbling kills you too. Where's the stat for that? He hurt the team out there more than helped them. He's going to need to develop some other signature to his game other than dribbling driving to the basket from the top of the key. You would have thought that after several months of practice time, he could feel comfortable in just doing one more thing other than driving from the top of the key. Where's the post up game? Where's the floater? Where's the nice form on an open jump shot? Where's a little hook shot in the lane? Give me something that is different from last year.

 

[Bricklayer]

This year, he has not shown the ability to penetrate like he did his rookie season, and his decision-making is just as bad as last year.

Third year he may have shown MORE ability to penetrate in these brief two games. His drives have been both spectacular and efficient. It was 4-5 driving in the first game, and 4-5 driving in the secodn as well. What is down are his attempts, and that's systemic, not Reketemic.

 

[Bricklayer]

His performance was poor. 7 turnovers kills you. Stopping the ball with dribbling kills you too. Where's the stat for that? He hurt the team out there more than helped them. He's going to need to develop some other signature to his game other than dribbling driving to the basket from the top of the key. You would have thought that after several months of practice time, he could feel comfortable in just doing one more thing other than driving from the top of the key. Where's the post up game? Where's the floater? Where's the nice form on an open jump shot? Where's a little hook shot in the lane? Give me something that is different from last year.

He has NOT been stoping the ball with dribbling. Its not even an opinion. He just hasn't been doing it. Its either a B.S. claim, or a national media type our information is always 1yr old type claim. By far the defining trait of Reke's play in the first two games has been how little dribbling he has done compared to the past. Adn of course whether that is a good or bad thing given the results and plague of turnovers. He's obviously feeling his way through an unfamilair situation. In the first half yesterday it looked like he was playing hot potato whenver the ball hit his hands. He, adn we, were much better when somebody told him to just be aggressive.

And as an aside, Reke had a post game from the moment he arrived here. We used it from time to time in his rookie year. Our not using it since is a coaching/personnel (Cousins + big frontcourt = better options) decision, not a Reke decision. You don't just spontaneously go post up as a PG unless its in the offense.

 

[Glenn]

What I saw last night was a totally different approach to the game in its use of Reke. He got rid of the ball. As to the dribble, dribble, dribbble complaint. I AGREE. What amazed me last night is that he DIDN'T do that. Actually I should say it pleased me very much. It shows that our wimpy coach is actually trying to use Tyreke in a way different than the first two years. I'm almost willing to write off last year as he seemed more in survival mode than improvement mode if that made any sense.

There will be times when we want the old Tyreke to be back and that may be at crunch time at the end of games or quarters. There is nothing wrong with handing him the ball and telling him to score. It's the rest of the time that he needs to change and the attempt to change is starting. I doubt if he is going to develop a floater or a dead on three point shot but with Marcus, Jimmer, Salmons and who knows else, we don't need it. We in fact don't need him to be our primary scorer which is WAY different than his rookie year.

I really was encouraged by what I saw last night despite the TOs. If he is going into a more pass first mode, I expect growing pains. I can live with it. This is a very gifted athlete who is still very raw.

 

[Kingsguy881]

It's pretty funny (as well as indicative of Kings fans nature) that we are bashing somebody after a win. Smh...

 

[IfAt1st]

Third year he may have shown MORE ability to penetrate in these brief two games. His drives have been both spectacular and efficient. It was 4-5 driving in the first game, and 4-5 driving in the secodn as well. What is down are his attempts, and that's systemic, not Reketemic.

You are WAY too smart to only remember the printed stats.

When I watch the games, I can add up how many times he tried to penetrate, but was DENIED, eating up clock or leading to a turnover. Would you like to go over a play-by-play write-up with me next game?
Or do you want to hide behind a "4-for-5" stat (he only sank 5 baskets, 1 of which was a 3, which means he was 1-for-7 unless he was driving)?

We can all see his play so far this year. He scores when there's no one in front of him, or when he's passed off to on a break and he lays it in. Don't deny it - we can only hope he'll get better. But don't ignore the reality SO FAR and say he's as good as he was his rookie season.

 

[WALTtheWIZ]

You are WAY too smart to only remember the printed stats.

When I watch the games, I can add up how many times he tried to penetrate, but was DENIED, eating up clock or leading to a turnover. Would you like to go over a play-by-play write-up with me next game?
Or do you want to hide behind a "4-for-5" stat (he only sank 5 baskets, 1 of which was a 3, which means he was 1-for-7 unless he was driving)?

We can all see his play so far this year. He scores when there's no one in front of him, or when he's passed off to on a break and he lays it in. Don't deny it - we can only hope he'll get better. But don't ignore the reality SO FAR and say he's as good as he was his rookie season.

I second that. Granted, in the two preseason games he has done it less than he did last year...he still does it. His drives do open things up for perimeter and post players but he needs to learn to get rid of the ball sooner. At times, he drives take too long and by the time he passes it, angles are lost or time has run out. Still has a lot of potential but cant deny there has not been much growth, if any.

 

[Bricklayer]

You are WAY too smart to only remember the printed stats.

When I watch the games, I can add up how many times he tried to penetrate, but was DENIED, eating up clock or leading to a turnover. Would you like to go over a play-by-play write-up with me next game?
Or do you want to hide behind a "4-for-5" stat (he only sank 5 baskets, 1 of which was a 3, which means he was 1-for-7 unless he was driving)?

We can all see his play so far this year. He scores when there's no one in front of him, or when he's passed off to on a break and he lays it in. Don't deny it - we can only hope he'll get better. But don't ignore the reality SO FAR and say he's as good as he was his rookie season.

You are now crossing the line from mere trolling to flat out lying. Its a bad place to go.

I do however, find it amusing that somebody would actually try to a) argue that Reke probing the defense and beating three guys = bad, and then b) but according to you Reke is now scoring only when nobody is in front of him...and that's a sign of his decline? Try harder.

btw can't get around anybody Reke says hi:

 

[WALTtheWIZ]

You are now crossing the line from mere trolling to flat out lying. Its a bad place to go.

I do however, find it amusing that somebody would actually try to a) argue that Reke probing the defense and beating three guys = bad, and then b) but according to you Reke is now scoring only when nobody is in front of him...and that's a sign of his decline? Try harder.

btw can't get around anybody Reke says hi:

Tyreke is obviously getting picked on a bit, driving to the basket is something he is great at.

That being said, there are problems with how he does it at times (last year it seemed to be almost half the time). I dont think the clip you showed is an example of what people are picking on. That was him getting the ball and making a quick move to the basket, making a circus shot at the end of the shot clock. The problem more lies when he stands at the top of the, makes a multitude of moves until he is able to get by his man, and then either shoots or makes a pass. He seems to be doing less of it during the preseason but still does it. He needs to improve that as well as other things to become the great player he can become.

 

[Telemachus]

Tyreke is obviously getting picked on a bit, driving to the basket is something he is great at.

That being said, there are problems with how he does it at times (last year it seemed to be almost half the time). I dont think the clip you showed is an example of what people are picking on. That was him getting the ball and making a quick move to the basket, making a circus shot at the end of the shot clock. The problem more lies when he stands at the top of the, makes a multitude of moves until he is able to get by his man, and then either shoots or makes a pass. He seems to be doing less of it during the preseason but still does it. He needs to improve that as well as other things to become the great player he can become.

That is the whole point of what Brick is saying. Tyreke didn't stand out there dribbling excessively trying to find a way to the basket. Most of the time he either made a quick move or passed to someone else.

 

[IfAt1st]

according to you Reke is now scoring only when nobody is in front of him...

I KNEW you would misread what I wrote, so I'll re-quote it:

He scores when there's no one in front of him, or when he's passed off to on a break and he lays it in.

Do you see the word "only" in that quote?
No, you don't. So don't say I said he can ONLY score when noone's in front of him.

btw can't get around anybody Reke says hi:

Yeah, too bad there's no YouTube mash-up of the countless times Tyreke drives and his man stays in front of him, and Tyreke circles back, or turns it over.
SEVEN times last game alone.

BTW - even on your cherry-picked clip which supposedly shows Tyreke's offensive brilliance at driving this year, you'll notice that none of those guys were set, ready defenders. The first man Tyreke dribbled around was rotating over to him full-speed, so was easy to go around. David Lee is the next guy, a PF traveling the opposite direction.

I really hope you don't think KF's sees a couple YouTube drives as evidence of what you are purportedly saying - that Reke is as good at driving so far this year as he was his rookie year?!

 

[Warhawk]

On Sportsline today, Grant interviewed PW. He asked him about Reke's role, what they want him to do, etc. PW said two things.

1. They want him to be a defensive force on the floor, both man-to-man and a team defender.
2. They want 10 assists per game out of him.

I didn't hear the whole interview, but that was his response to that question. They said he will have games where he scores more and games where he scores less. The scoring isn't as important to them as the assists. They still want some scoring out of him, but they really want him to focus on defense and passing.

 

[swisshh]

=/

The defense is his game, but the assists are not. Think the worst of me if you want, but I understand that being the setup guy is not his game. The Warriors were perfectly happy with passive Reke for 3 quarters. Tell him to be an assist guy and he'll stop atttacking and make inconsequential passes. Put him at the wing and baseline, tell him to attack and give him easy pass outs with a corner three and a big man filling the lane and you force the defense to work. Sit him at the top of the three point line and say "PASS" and it's not using his skills.

 

[Warhawk]

=/

The defense is his game, but the assists are not. Think the worst of me if you want, but I understand that being the setup guy is not his game. The Warriors were perfectly happy with passive Reke for 3 quarters. Tell him to be an assist guy and he'll stop atttacking and make inconsequential passes. Put him at the wing and baseline, tell him to attack and give him easy pass outs with a corner three and a big man filling the lane and you force the defense to work. Sit him at the top of the three point line and say "PASS" and it's not using his skills.

Um, I think that's the point. They want him to break down the defense and then pass out to Thornton and Jimmer. Or inside to Cousins. That would be my guess.

 

[swisshh]

Um, I think that's the point. They want him to break down the defense and then pass out to Thornton and Jimmer. Or inside to Cousins. That would be my guess.

I hope that is what they're aiming to do and not just saying "get 10 assists." I'd be more comfortable if Westphal had said "We want him to be more aware of the defense collapsing on him and where his teammates are."

 

[Telemachus]

I hope that is what they're aiming to do and not just saying "get 10 assists." I'd be more comfortable if Westphal had said "We want him to be more aware of the defense collapsing on him and where his teammates are."

Last time I checked, it is pretty hard to get 10 assists by passing the ball from the top of the key. I can't think of a guard who gets a lot of assists without getting into the paint on a regular basis. I guess if you only do fast breaks that might work, but it is hard to always be in a fast break situation.

 

[Bricklayer]

I hope that is what they're aiming to do and not just saying "get 10 assists." I'd be more comfortable if Westphal had said "We want him to be more aware of the defense collapsing on him and where his teammates are."

Last time I checked, it is pretty hard to get 10 assists by passing the ball from the top of the key. I can't think of a guard who gets a lot of assists without getting into the paint on a regular basis. I guess if you only do fast breaks that might work, but it is hard to always be in a fast break situation.

Woohoo, finally we reach a point where I can agree with both sides.

It has been very clear we have been asking Reke to try a different role. Its been just as clear that the passive quickly swing the ball up top guy can NOT have been the role we have been looking for out of him. People say that's "unselfish". Well its also ineffective. Its what you do when you don't have the talent to do more. Reke does. From the very beginning Reke has not had a pure PGs vision or instincts. But also from the very beginning Reke has been able to rack up a large number of assist by using what he does have -- an elite handle and almost unparralled ability to get to the hoop -- to draw attention and kick the ball to people left open. If we want Reke to get 10 assists a game, which is a !!! number, but still, if we want him to get there he's not going to get there passively swinging the ball on the perimeter, and he's not going to get there by suddenly developing pure PG instincts and vision -- you don't develop those this late, you either have them or not. If he is ever going to get to 10 assists a game he is going to have to get there by playing to his strengths, but with a conscious effort to look for the people left open when he drives rather than looking at the hoop. THAT is the way that Reke can still be Reke, can still use his star talents, but in a different role.

Now we have only seen little flashes thus far. A few drives in the first couple of games where he was clearly looking to pass rather than score. But if such a lofty (and likely unrealistic) number is going to be acheived, that's how it will have to be acheived. By Reke playing the ultimate drive and dish PG, and hopefully getting comfortable enough to be able to switch modes and attack when we need it.

 

[Warhawk]

I hope that is what they're aiming to do and not just saying "get 10 assists." I'd be more comfortable if Westphal had said "We want him to be more aware of the defense collapsing on him and where his teammates are."

I wasn't giving a verbatim response. And I didn't hear most of the interview. But again, that is the point. Break down the defense and get the ball to someone who can score if he doesn't get a good shot himself. Sounds an awful lot like what you are saying to me. It is a change in mindset. They are not going to "punish" him if he doesn't get 10 per game. They are just trying to get him to be a better and more willing passer when he drives. The 10 assist mark didn't sound to me to be an ultimate goal, more like a change in mindset.

And Reke has always been a fairly willing passer, it's just that his teammates couldn't seem to knock down the outside shot very well. Hopefully that changes this year. That alone will help the team immensely.

 

[Section 101]

Woohoo, finally we reach a point where I can agree with both sides.

It has been very clear we have been asking Reke to try a different role. Its been just as clear that the passive quickly swing the ball up top guy can NOT have been the role we have been looking for out of him. People say that's "unselfish". Well its also ineffective. Its what you do when you don't have the talent to do more. Reke does. From the very beginning Reke has not had a pure PGs vision or instincts. But also from the very beginning Reke has been able to rack up a large number of assist by using what he does have -- an elite handle and almost unparralled ability to get to the hoop -- to draw attention and kick the ball to people left open. If we want Reke to get 10 assists a game, which is a !!! number, but still, if we want him to get there he's not going to get there passively swinging the ball on the perimeter, and he's not going to get there by suddenly developing pure PG instincts and vision -- you don't develop those this late, you either have them or not. If he is ever going to get to 10 assists a game he is going to have to get there by playing to his strengths, but with a conscious effort to look for the people left open when he drives rather than looking at the hoop. THAT is the way that Reke can still be Reke, can still use his star talents, but in a different role.

Now we have only seen little flashes thus far. A few drives in the first couple of games where he was clearly looking to pass rather than score. But if such a lofty (and likely unrealistic) number is going to be acheived, that's how it will have to be acheived. By Reke playing the ultimate drive and dish PG, and hopefully getting comfortable enough to be able to switch modes and attack when we need it.

Agreed. But he will not be able to maintain his scoring average. Which is what I have always said. If Evans is the PG they are not going to win with him being the leading scorer or him averaging over 20pts/game. His assists needed to go up and shots/points down.

 

[Bricklayer]

Agreed. But he will not be able to maintain his scoring average. Which is what I have always said. If Evans is the PG they are not going to win with him being the leading scorer or him averaging over 20pts/game. His assists needed to go up and shots/points down.

He may not be the scoring leader, but he would still be the most important player on the team (unless Cousins also steps up), and be the guy you suddenly unleash when you need a kick in the pants. Could help his driving efficiency if people have to start playing him for the pass as well. No more collapsing triple teams for fear of being burned.

Now mind you, this all sounds like just another stupid Westphal idea. Reke racking up more assists is both desirable and logical given how unbalanced our roster has become toward offensive gunners. The irony is just to keep all of the chuckers on our roster happy we might have to turn both our two most talented players into pass first distributors. But taking it to the extreme that you want a guy to double his assists and threaten to lead the league...that's either genius born of supreme confidence in a guy, or more unrealistic stupidity bound to get you fired. The stakes also become even higher when you have Reke and Cousins mute their offense to become fulltime passers becuase they will be coming up to the end of their rookie contracts in a couple of years. If the strategy works to the point we are winning, you can hopefully get them back. But if such an extreme strategy fails, those other pastures are going to look awfully green as guys are offered a chance to go someplace unfettered where they aren't having to sacrifice their own games to keep the likes of JJ Hickson and John Salmons happy.

Such an outragous number -- 10 ast -- would also seem to fly directly int he face of Westphal's "they all just be guards" philosophy. If Reke is somehow able to average 10 asts while sharing the ball equally with the other guards, Salmson, Cousins, etc., he will have accomplished one of the most impressive feats as a passer in NBA history. Chris Paul averaged 9.8 ast/gm last year controlling 90% of the possessions for the Hornets.

 

[Kingster]

On Sportsline today, Grant interviewed PW. He asked him about Reke's role, what they want him to do, etc. PW said two things.

1. They want him to be a defensive force on the floor, both man-to-man and a team defender.
2. They want 10 assists per game out of him.

I didn't hear the whole interview, but that was his response to that question. They said he will have games where he scores more and games where he scores less. The scoring isn't as important to them as the assists. They still want some scoring out of him, but they really want him to focus on defense and passing.

Hmmm. Sounds like the want him to be a "point". Point guard, point forward, who knows, but if you want a guy to get 10 assists then he's got to be the predominant ball handler on the team. I wonder if the 10 assists goal is more of a ploy to let him think of himself differently. Maybe they feel the self-imposed pressure for him to score is causing his ball-pounding and his turnovers, which are hurting the team. If he can just relax and start thinking of himself as an assist-maker, then the other stuff takes care of itself. It's worth a try. I wonder if they told him this at the beginning of the season or after the last game. If it was the beginning of the season, then the desired effect hasn't taken place.

 

[Kingster]

=/

The defense is his game, but the assists are not. Think the worst of me if you want, but I understand that being the setup guy is not his game. The Warriors were perfectly happy with passive Reke for 3 quarters. Tell him to be an assist guy and he'll stop atttacking and make inconsequential passes. Put him at the wing and baseline, tell him to attack and give him easy pass outs with a corner three and a big man filling the lane and you force the defense to work. Sit him at the top of the three point line and say "PASS" and it's not using his skills.

So if you put on the wing, then assists could be his game, right?

 

[Bricklayer]

If it was the beginning of the season, then the desired effect hasn't taken place.

And again, I guess you just did not watch the first two preseason games at all. Take it from someone who idd -- Reke has looked noticeably different. Not better. Different. He VERY obviously has been getting rid of the ball much more quickly. Too quickly if you are going to go off and average 10 assists. He has notched 7 ast in each game (while taking far fewer shots then he has in the past (10 one game, 12 the next), and he's thrown a bunch of bad passes trying to rack up more. This is not an argument that he has been terribly effective in this new role. But the new role has been perfectly obvious for anyone watching. Or at least the attempts at the new role. As I mentioend above, the dribbling over halfcourt and immediately passing it off to Thronton or Jimmer or whoever looks like a passive attempt to meet some sort of unselfishness criteria. It can't be what we are actually looking for, and whether this extreme strategy works or not will depend entirely on whether Reke figures out that in order to get 10ast a night you have to be jsut as aggressive as you are to get 20pts a night. In order to get those sorts of numbers for a guy like Reke it has to be a major major slash and kick offense.

Just ot give an idea how extrem this idea is, since 2000 the entire list of 10ast/gm seasons is composed of:
Steve Nash x6
Deron Wiliams x4
Chris Paul x3
Rajon Rondo x1
Andre Miller x1
Jason Kidd x1

That's it. And now Westphal wants his combo guard to acheive that same feat while equal sharing the ball with a bunch of other ballhandlers? Like I say, if he were actually able to do that it would be one of the all time unlikely passing feats.

 

[Kingster]

He may not be the scoring leader, but he would still be the most important player on the team (unless Cousins also steps up), and be the guy you suddenly unleash when you need a kick in the pants. Could help his driving efficiency if people have to start playing him for the pass as well. No more collapsing triple teams for fear of being burned.

Now mind you, this all sounds like just another stupid Westphal idea. Reke racking up more assists is both desirable and logical given how unbalanced our roster has become toward offensive gunners. The irony is just to keep all of the chuckers on our roster happy we might have to turn both our two most talented players into pass first distributors. But taking it to the extreme that you want a guy to double his assists and threaten to lead the league...that's either genius born of supreme confidence in a guy, or more unrealistic stupidity bound to get you fired. The stakes also become even higher when you have Reke and Cousins mute their offense to become fulltime passers becuase they will be coming up to the end of their rookie contracts in a couple of years. If the strategy works to the point we are winning, you can hopefully get them back. But if such an extreme strategy fails, those other pastures are going to look awfully green as guys are offered a chance to go someplace unfettered where they aren't having to sacrifice their own games to keep the likes of JJ Hickson and John Salmons happy.

Such an outragous number -- 10 ast -- would also seem to fly directly int he face of Westphal's "they all just be guards" philosophy. If Reke is somehow able to average 10 asts while sharing the ball equally with the other guards, Salmson, Cousins, etc., he will have accomplished one of the most impressive feats as a passer in NBA history. Chris Paul averaged 9.8 ast/gm last year controlling 90% of the possessions for the Hornets.

Yes, it's evidence that Westphal is worried about the ball movement on this team (The other stuff about point guards is just semantics). It's good psychology. If you want a guy to think of himself differently on the court, then sell it by saying to him that he can be great in his new role (aka 10 assists/gm). I think Tyreke could be excellent in this role, if he doesn't just get the ball at the top of the key, but at the wing, but I would hazard a guess that Tyreke is going to be the assist man to the assist man. If they play the game like they should, it's usually the 2nd or 3rd pass that get's the assist, whereas Tyreke is going to basically the first guy in the progression: Tyreke drives, kicks out to Salmons (or whomever), who kicks out to Jimmer, who gets the three. Tyreke may not put up big numbers in assists, but he could have a big impact on the game.