Talking point guard/Evans/etc. (split from Wolves grade thread)

[AleksandarN]

Now that I think about it. You may have stumbled onto something. How many pure great pg's that average all these high number of assist have ever won a championship??? Look at some of them

John Stockton
Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Mark Jackson
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton

These are the cream of the crop for assist guys and some are the top ALL - TIME and non have ever won a championship. So yeah 10 ast guys are unable to win a championship.

I can think of 1 Isaiah Thomas

Magic?

 

[Gary]

Dwyane Wade.
(If you stretch - maybe Magic Johnson)

AND... I think that's pretty much it.

The combo guard is a relatively new concept, I think it originated here with Bobby Jackson.

(just exercising the brain AM, not jabbing at you)

Glad you brought up Dwane Wade.. Evans reminds me of a mix between Wade, and Lebron (young version) That is totally awesome we have a player like that.. But I stick by my statement he's not a PG Notice yahoo has changed Evans from a point guard to a guard?

Back to what I said earlier though.. With Evans being the new guy do you think when Martin is back that they will be able to play together? Evans at Memphis needed the ball in his hands to be effective which is why he was moved to the "pg" spot... Martin needs the ball in his hands to be effective as well. I don't think either have proved they are great at moving and getting open without the ball but I have seen some signs from Evans that he will be able to. I hear the idiot Grant Napear saying the team will be better with Martin.. Last time I heard him preach that was when Webber was injured. Obviously we know what happened when Webber returned.... Before that it was Lionel Simmons, and Frank Brickowski.. I think we traded an injured Frank Brickowski before he even played a game for us. Anyhow, I am not sure pairing those two players in the back court will give us more wins.

 

[VF21]

Glad you brought up Dwane Wade.. Evans reminds me of a mix between Wade, and Lebron (young version) That is totally awesome we have a player like that.. But I stick by my statement he's not a PG Notice yahoo has changed Evans from a point guard to a guard?

Back to what I said earlier though.. With Evans being the new guy do you think when Martin is back that they will be able to play together? Evans at Memphis needed the ball in his hands to be effective which is why he was moved to the "pg" spot... Martin needs the ball in his hands to be effective as well. I don't think either have proved they are great at moving and getting open without the ball but I have seen some signs from Evans that he will be able to. I hear the idiot Grant Napear saying the team will be better with Martin.. Last time I heard him preach that was when Webber was injured. Obviously we know what happened when Webber returned.... Before that it was Lionel Simmons, and Frank Brickowski.. I think we traded an injured Frank Brickowski before he even played a game for us. Anyhow, I am not sure pairing those two players in the back court will give us more wins.

There's already an ongoing discussion about what will happen when Martin gets back... your comments would probably be better served there.

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34613

 

[Kingsguy881]

Glad you brought up Dwane Wade.. Evans reminds me of a mix between Wade, and Lebron (young version) That is totally awesome we have a player like that.. But I stick by my statement he's not a PG Notice yahoo has changed Evans from a point guard to a guard?

Back to what I said earlier though.. With Evans being the new guy do you think when Martin is back that they will be able to play together? Evans at Memphis needed the ball in his hands to be effective which is why he was moved to the "pg" spot... Martin needs the ball in his hands to be effective as well. I don't think either have proved they are great at moving and getting open without the ball but I have seen some signs from Evans that he will be able to. I hear the idiot Grant Napear saying the team will be better with Martin.. Last time I heard him preach that was when Webber was injured. Obviously we know what happened when Webber returned.... Before that it was Lionel Simmons, and Frank Brickowski.. I think we traded an injured Frank Brickowski before he even played a game for us. Anyhow, I am not sure pairing those two players in the back court will give us more wins.

BULLSPIT!! When he played with ball-dominant Artest we all saw how effective he could be as the #2 option. When he played with Bibby and Artest, we all saw how good he could be as the #3 option. Your argument is based on how last year went. Throw it out the window. Martin does not have to be #1 to be effective. Thats garbage. Unless you weren't watching the Kings play 2-3 years ago.....

 

[AriesMar27]

Why do we need a past first pg when we have Evans? If you look at the last 20 years you can tell it isnot important to have a past first pg. So why do we need one now?

michael jordan, shaq, kobe and tim duncan seem to have that effect on teams... we dont have any of those players on our team. if we had fisher as our starting pg we wouldnt be a very good team....

 

[AleksandarN]

i dont think that his nationality makes a difference.... if he who shall remain nameless was american would we still be having this argument? would be a much better question though...

I highly doubt it. I remember when Pedja and Turk were drafted and starting enjoying success as players it did not matter what nationality a player is. Kingsfans and King fans in general do not care. That is why I love it here. Most people here do not care where a player is from all they care about is that they play for the Kings.

 

[VF21]

General observation: It's actually becoming amusing to see how many different ways some people can be dragged back into the same old tired arguments. I anxiously await the day when everybody realizes the emperor has no clothes...

 

[Kingsguy881]

And look what offense both players were in. It wasn't designed to have a PG.

What???? So it was designed to only have 4 players on the court? Or they won because they designed to have 2 sg's on the court together? What is your argument, you are digging yourself a deep, DEEP hole. So you argue that Tyreke is a sg, and yet you also argue that the teams that win championships have 2 sg's on the court, so therefore we need a team with a pure pg and pure sg, not the best player at whatever position we can have? I'm going in circles following your arguement, but the problem is it keeps on ending up with an answer of TYREKE AT POINT GUARD for the answer. I like it though.

 

[AleksandarN]

michael jordan, shaq, kobe and tim duncan seem to have that effect on teams... we dont have any of those players on our team. if we had fisher as our starting pg we wouldnt be a very good team....

you do know that we are the not the Suns. We do not run that kind of offense that needs a playmaker. So if we do not run that kind of offense why do we need a pass first pg?

 

[Kingsguy881]

General observation: It's actually becoming amusing to see how many different ways some people can be dragged back into the same old tired arguments. I anxiously await the day when everybody realizes the emperor has no clothes...

I'm actually enjoying this, because every which way it is argued it leads back to having a superstar at whatever position that superstar is said to play. Some people think you can, but the results speak for me : that you can't argue with results. As much as you fantasize about the 'what if?'.

 

[Kingsguy881]

you do know that we are the not the Suns. We do not run that kind of offense that needs a playmaker. So if we do not run that kind of offense why do we need a pass first pg?

So we can win some games but not the ones that matter!

Come on, don't you see their argument? Its quite simple. Have position defined players, win some games, but lose on the big stage. It's quite simple. The Kings lose out in the end, if that's what you want of course.

 

[Emma]

I believe Martin and Evans will play well together. Martin has had time to watch and learn how best to fit in. He will play a fine second fiddle.


Oh, VF... The Emperor told me that it was a birthday suit. Who am I to mess up his new groove?

 

[Emma]

I, and most of the rest of the folks that have posted, argue for the sake of results. Others seem to like to argue about fantasy. I think results will beat fantasy 100% of the time, don't you?

You're obviously not married

Edit: Results are all we can ever really have, so I'll take them.

 

[Kingsguy881]

You're obviously not married

Married 4 years, 2 kids. An almost 5y/o lil boy and 2 y/o lil gurl. Beautiful children, lil gurl has olive brown skin, golden brown curls and huge blue eyes. Lil boy is handsome with same skin and green eyes. All my life right there. Them and their mom. And my Kings, baby.

 

[Emma]

Married 4 years, 2 kids. An almost 5y/o lil boy and 2 y/o lil gurl. Beautiful children, lil gurl has olive brown skin, golden brown curls and huge blue eyes. Lil boy is handsome with same skin and green eyes. All my life right there. Them and their mom. And my Kings, baby.

I kid! I kid!

(You can see my family in the family pics thread btw). Families are awesome. Except when they're sick, then the sickness never ends. Me and my wife are going to the game the sixteenth, I'll have a Casspi home jersey in Hebrew, hopefully. Maybe I'll bump into ya and buy you a beer?

Back to the topic: I semi-agreed with you.

 

[mac]

Once again, I'm just wondering why Martin is now called ball dominant. Because I honestly recall him being compared to rip hamilton before he was our no.1 option - excellent at moving without the ball. With Martin back Evan's effectiveness in terms of his PPG may dip, but I actually think his overall impact on the game and his ability to facilitate the offense will improve with Martin in the game. Isn't that how Martin used to score? On cuts to the basket and such? We just have to turn him back into that efficient player and not the guy who creates his own shots (he's not very good at doing that anyway)

And for the record. Yeah ok, Evans isn't really a PG, he's a combo guard. But we're winning, we're playing hard. So .... why do we need a pass first PG?

 

[Bricklayer]

Once again, I'm just wondering why Martin is now called ball dominant. Because I honestly recall him being compared to rip hamilton before he was our no.1 option - excellent at moving without the ball. With Martin back Evan's effectiveness in terms of his PPG may dip, but I actually think his overall impact on the game and his ability to facilitate the offense will improve with Martin in the game. Isn't that how Martin used to score? On cuts to the basket and such? We just have to turn him back into that efficient player and not the guy who creates his own shots (he's not very good at doing that anyway)

And for the record. Yeah ok, Evans isn't really a PG, he's a combo guard. But we're winning, we're playing hard. So .... why do we need a pass first PG?

Martin is NOT ball dominant. That would not work at all. Or rather what I should say is he does not have to be. He was to start this season.

Martin IS shot/play dominant. Like all big scorers. He eats up a ton of shots (and those magic shots nobody wants to count where he goes to the line). And he eats up a ton of effort/focus/plays run to make it happen. When a player is NOT ball dominant, as Kevin is not, its also another way of saying that they cannot create ther own shot. And when they score a ton of points anyway its not because of magic scoring sauce, its becausae the TEAM, the offense, is working to get them those shots they don't create themselves.

Which leads to three points. First, that could be said of almost any scorer, regardless of the position. If we trade Kevin for Chris Bosh, he's going to use up a ton of shots/possessins himself. The point would be that allegeldy magic Kevin isn't any different, that he plays byt he same rules, not that he is necessarily worse about that than any other major scorer.

Second, however, is the point that this magic "doesn't take any extrapossessions" Kevin people refer to is in essence just Kevin's leakouts on the fastbreak and then standstill jumpers on kickouts. Who knows how many ppg that Kevin scores, but it ain't 24, and it certainly ain't 30.

And here is point Three, a lot of guys can be similarly efficient if that is all you are going to use Kevin for -- in fact take a look at the numbers of the guys Kevin will be taking minutes from:

Beno (.548 FG% .448 3pt% .875 FT%)
Omri (.525 FG% .490 3pt% .481 FT%)
Donte (.488 FG% .396 3pt% .590 FT%)
Sergio (.473 FG% .440 3pt% .750 FT%)

Kevin's numbers this season:
Kevin 09-10 (.423 FG% .447 3pt% .857 FT%)
Kevin's numbers last season:
Kevin 08-09 (.420 FG% .414 3pt% .867 FT%)

How much more efficient than the above listed players can Kevin possibly be? Apart from the FT stripe, in which case Kevin would be perhaps the first player in history started for his his free throw shooting. And the thing is, and one of the the real questions going forward, assuming that Kevin backs way off, assuming he returns to more efficient days and is as efficient as those above players have been offensively, what about the other aspects fo the game? because amazingly those players listed above all understand that scoring alone is a loser's game and all bring other things to the table as well. Sergio and Beno have been that efficent while simultaneously providing ball handling + passing. Omri & Donte while simulataneously providing size, scrap and defense. What does Kevin simultaneously provide while he's scoring? His way of providing "extra" has always been to provide even more scoring. If Kevin averages more ppg in Donte and Sergio's minutes than Donte & Sergio do (they combine for 15.4ppg in 34.5min), as you can see from their percentages above its not going to be because Kevin is going to be that much more efficent than they have been. Its going to be because he is taking more shots out of the offense than they do, whihc will be drained off from the other players listed, or Tyreke, or Jason, or Noc (the last one finally an appealing notion).

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Martin IS shot/play dominant. Like all big scorers. He eats up a ton of shots (and those magic shots nobody wants to count where he goes to the line).

This is basically BrickMyth #1, that if you take into account the "magic shots" that Jerry Reynolds (and nobody else I have ever seen) fails to count, that Kevin suddenly becomes pedestrian in efficiency.

It's not true. There's a very good statistic that takes into account those "magic shots" called TS% (True Shooting Percentage; it's a bad name, because it's not a percentage in any way). The simplest interpretation is that if you take TS% and multiply by two, you get the number of points a player scores every time he attempts to shoot the basketball, fouled or not.

According to TS%, Martin is currently 14th-best all time in efficiency, scoring 1.21 points per shot attempt. Steve Nash (also at 1.21) is the only guy better among active players (minimum 700 points scored, career). 14th-best all time and 2nd best active is obviously very good efficiency.

And here is point Three, a lot of guys can be similarly efficient if that is all you are going to use Kevin for -- in fact take a look at the numbers of the guys Kevin will be taking minutes from:

Beno (.548 FG% .448 3pt% .875 FT%)
Omri (.525 FG% .490 3pt% .481 FT%)
Donte (.488 FG% .396 3pt% .590 FT%)
Sergio (.473 FG% .440 3pt% .750 FT%)

Kevin's numbers this season:
Kevin 09-10 (.423 FG% .447 3pt% .857 FT%)
Kevin's numbers last season:
Kevin 08-09 (.420 FG% .414 3pt% .867 FT%)

How much more efficient than the above listed players can Kevin possibly be?

Well, let's look at the numbers:

Kevin this season: 1.15 points per shot attempt (ppsa, this would be #57 all time just above Ray Allen)
Kevin, career: 1.21 ppsa

Beno this season: 1.26 ppsa (this would be #2 all time)
Beno, career: 1.07 ppsa

Omri: 1.19 ppsa (this would be good for #22 all time)

Greene, this season: 1.15 ppsa (this would also be #57 all time)
Greene, career: 0.95 ppsa

Sergio, this season: 1.14 ppsa (#69 all time)
Sergio, career: 0.97 ppsa

So in fact these guys have been ridiculously efficient this year, Beno particularly so. Omri would be even higher if he could hit a free throw (if he shot 75% from the line, he'd be at 1.27 ppsa, good for best all-time ). But that's all this year, only a 22-game sample (5 for Kevin). Kevin is the only one who actually has a history of shooting this efficiently. If these other guys can keep up the shooting, then they do make Kevin somewhat redundant - but that's a big if.

I agree, hopefully Kevin can pick up the defense. Even so, taking history into account there's not a lot of reason to believe he isn't still our most efficient scorer.

 

[Rookie]

I believe when KMart return it will make our team even better. We keep saying on a good team, KMart would be 2/3rd option...well when he's back he will be 2nd. Now if we can find another player better than him, we're good to go.

 

[bajaden]

Martin is NOT ball dominant. That would not work at all. Or rather what I should say is he does not have to be. He was to start this season.

Martin IS shot/play dominant. Like all big scorers. He eats up a ton of shots (and those magic shots nobody wants to count where he goes to the line). And he eats up a ton of effort/focus/plays run to make it happen. When a player is NOT ball dominant, as Kevin is not, its also another way of saying that they cannot create ther own shot. And when they score a ton of points anyway its not because of magic scoring sauce, its becausae the TEAM, the offense, is working to get them those shots they don't create themselves.

Which leads to three points. First, that could be said of almost any scorer, regardless of the position. If we trade Kevin for Chris Bosh, he's going to use up a ton of shots/possessins himself. The point would be that allegeldy magic Kevin isn't any different, that he plays byt he same rules, not that he is necessarily worse about that than any other major scorer.

Second, however, is the point that this magic "doesn't take any extrapossessions" Kevin people refer to is in essence just Kevin's leakouts on the fastbreak and then standstill jumpers on kickouts. Who knows how many ppg that Kevin scores, but it ain't 24, and it certainly ain't 30.

And here is point Three, a lot of guys can be similarly efficient if that is all you are going to use Kevin for -- in fact take a look at the numbers of the guys Kevin will be taking minutes from:

Beno (.548 FG% .448 3pt% .875 FT%)
Omri (.525 FG% .490 3pt% .481 FT%)
Donte (.488 FG% .396 3pt% .590 FT%)
Sergio (.473 FG% .440 3pt% .750 FT%)

Kevin's numbers this season:
Kevin 09-10 (.423 FG% .447 3pt% .857 FT%)
Kevin's numbers last season:
Kevin 08-09 (.420 FG% .414 3pt% .867 FT%)

How much more efficient than the above listed players can Kevin possibly be? Apart from the FT stripe, in which case Kevin would be perhaps the first player in history started for his his free throw shooting. And the thing is, and one of the the real questions going forward, assuming that Kevin backs way off, assuming he returns to more efficient days and is as efficient as those above players have been offensively, what about the other aspects fo the game? because amazingly those players listed above all understand that scoring alone is a loser's game and all bring other things to the table as well. Sergio and Beno have been that efficent while simultaneously providing ball handling + passing. Omri & Donte while simulataneously providing size, scrap and defense. What does Kevin simultaneously provide while he's scoring? His way of providing "extra" has always been to provide even more scoring. If Kevin averages more ppg in Donte and Sergio's minutes than Donte & Sergio do (they combine for 15.4ppg in 34.5min), as you can see from their percentages above its not going to be because Kevin is going to be that much more efficent than they have been. Its going to be because he is taking more shots out of the offense than they do, whihc will be drained off from the other players listed, or Tyreke, or Jason, or Noc (the last one finally an appealing notion).

I think I have a headache. Too much for my little brain to absorb..

 

[bajaden]

This is basically BrickMyth #1, that if you take into account the "magic shots" that Jerry Reynolds (and nobody else I have ever seen) fails to count, that Kevin suddenly becomes pedestrian in efficiency.

It's not true. There's a very good statistic that takes into account those "magic shots" called TS% (True Shooting Percentage; it's a bad name, because it's not a percentage in any way). The simplest interpretation is that if you take TS% and multiply by two, you get the number of points a player scores every time he attempts to shoot the basketball, fouled or not.

According to TS%, Martin is currently 14th-best all time in efficiency, scoring 1.21 points per shot attempt. Steve Nash (also at 1.21) is the only guy better among active players (minimum 700 points scored, career). 14th-best all time and 2nd best active is obviously very good efficiency.



Well, let's look at the numbers:

Kevin this season: 1.15 points per shot attempt (ppsa, this would be #57 all time just above Ray Allen)
Kevin, career: 1.21 ppsa

Beno this season: 1.26 ppsa (this would be #2 all time)
Beno, career: 1.07 ppsa

Omri: 1.19 ppsa (this would be good for #22 all time)

Greene, this season: 1.15 ppsa (this would also be #57 all time)
Greene, career: 0.95 ppsa

Sergio, this season: 1.14 ppsa (#69 all time)
Sergio, career: 0.97 ppsa

So in fact these guys have been ridiculously efficient this year, Beno particularly so. Omri would be even higher if he could hit a free throw (if he shot 75% from the line, he'd be at 1.27 ppsa, good for best all-time ). But that's all this year, only a 22-game sample (5 for Kevin). Kevin is the only one who actually has a history of shooting this efficiently. If these other guys can keep up the shooting, then they do make Kevin somewhat redundant - but that's a big if.

I agree, hopefully Kevin can pick up the defense. Even so, taking history into account there's not a lot of reason to believe he isn't still our most efficient scorer.

Now I have a migraine!

 

[roasthawg]

This is basically BrickMyth #1, that if you take into account the "magic shots" that Jerry Reynolds (and nobody else I have ever seen) fails to count, that Kevin suddenly becomes pedestrian in efficiency.

It's not true. There's a very good statistic that takes into account those "magic shots" called TS% (True Shooting Percentage; it's a bad name, because it's not a percentage in any way). The simplest interpretation is that if you take TS% and multiply by two, you get the number of points a player scores every time he attempts to shoot the basketball, fouled or not.

According to TS%, Martin is currently 14th-best all time in efficiency, scoring 1.21 points per shot attempt. Steve Nash (also at 1.21) is the only guy better among active players (minimum 700 points scored, career). 14th-best all time and 2nd best active is obviously very good efficiency.



Well, let's look at the numbers:

Kevin this season: 1.15 points per shot attempt (ppsa, this would be #57 all time just above Ray Allen)
Kevin, career: 1.21 ppsa

Beno this season: 1.26 ppsa (this would be #2 all time)
Beno, career: 1.07 ppsa

Omri: 1.19 ppsa (this would be good for #22 all time)

Greene, this season: 1.15 ppsa (this would also be #57 all time)
Greene, career: 0.95 ppsa

Sergio, this season: 1.14 ppsa (#69 all time)
Sergio, career: 0.97 ppsa

So in fact these guys have been ridiculously efficient this year, Beno particularly so. Omri would be even higher if he could hit a free throw (if he shot 75% from the line, he'd be at 1.27 ppsa, good for best all-time ). But that's all this year, only a 22-game sample (5 for Kevin). Kevin is the only one who actually has a history of shooting this efficiently. If these other guys can keep up the shooting, then they do make Kevin somewhat redundant - but that's a big if.

I agree, hopefully Kevin can pick up the defense. Even so, taking history into account there's not a lot of reason to believe he isn't still our most efficient scorer.

Nice post... I personally think this team is gonna take off when Martin gets back and the guys gel. He's a major talent upgrade and I'm pretty sure Coach already has a good idea of how he's gonna play these guys. I can't wait!

 

[Kingsguy881]

I kid! I kid!

(You can see my family in the family pics thread btw). Families are awesome. Except when they're sick, then the sickness never ends. Me and my wife are going to the game the sixteenth, I'll have a Casspi home jersey in Hebrew, hopefully. Maybe I'll bump into ya and buy you a beer?

Back to the topic: I semi-agreed with you.

Not if I bump into you and buy you a beer first

 

[Bricklayer]

Now I have a migraine!

You want a migraine consider this about "true shooting percentage" -- Brad Miller is 86th all time.

Ahead of Michael Jordan.

 

[roasthawg]

You want a migraine consider this about "true shooting percentage" -- Brad Miller is 86th all time.

Ahead of Michael Jordan.

False... Michael Jordan is 72nd.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ts_pct_career.html

 

[Bricklayer]

False... Michael Jordan is 72nd.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ts_pct_career.html

I stand corrected. MJ is right behind Andrei Kirilenko, Kenny Smith, and Dana Barros.

At #86 Brad is just ahead of guys like Larry Bird and Oscar Robertson.

The good news is with a little work Lebron & Kobe can catch Shane Battier.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I believe when KMart return it will make our team even better. We keep saying on a good team, KMart would be 2/3rd option...well when he's back he will be 2nd. Now if we can find another player better than him, we're good to go.

I think Donte and Omri will both prove to be better than KMart over the next few seasons and they'll probably be losing minutes when he returns slowing their growth. My worst fear is that pairing KMart and Reke in back leads to more time for Cisco when he returns and we completely stifle two of the guys with the most potential after Evans.

 

[roasthawg]

I stand corrected. MJ is right behind Andrei Kirilenko, Kenny Smith, and Dana Barros.

At #86 Brad is just ahead of guys like Larry Bird and Oscar Robertson.

The good news is with a little work Lebron & Kobe can catch Shane Battier.

Well true shooting percentage is dominated by players who either get a high percentage of their points from behind the 3 point line (Peja, Barbosa, Miller, etc.) or guys like Shaq and Curry that get most of their points on high percentage inside shots. KMart compares favorably with Reggie Miller as a scorer and their true shooting percentages are similar too. Very valuable players to any team.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I stand corrected. MJ is right behind Andrei Kirilenko, Kenny Smith, and Dana Barros.

At #86 Brad is just ahead of guys like Larry Bird and Oscar Robertson.

The good news is with a little work Lebron & Kobe can catch Shane Battier.

Efficiency is efficiency. Efficiency is not greatness. Jordan did a lot of things out on the court (defense, rebounding, passing) that Martin does not do nearly as well. This doesn't change the fact that, on average, when Martin decides to shoot the ball his team scores more points than Jordan's team did when MJ decided to shoot the ball.

And whatever one thinks about Brad Miller's all-over game, he was/is very good (though not elite) in terms of shooting efficiency.

Just because some of the greatest players of all time were not particularly efficient, just because some of the most efficient players of all time were not great, does not mean that TS% does not accurately measure efficiency. It means it does not accurately measure greatness. The point in question, however, was in fact efficiency, so attacking TS% because it does not measure greatness is a misdirect.

 

[AriesMar27]

miller is a good shooter, battier is a better shooter than kobe and lebron(by a wide margin) so im not surprised that they are ranked higher in TS%. are they better players? hell no but they are better shooters.

its funny that lebron and kobe are ranked 113 and 114 respectively...