Talking point guard/Evans/etc. (split from Wolves grade thread)

[VF21]

I thought the title was basketball stats 101?

No, BS101 would be things like total points and steals. This thread has gone well into BS401 and beyond.

 

[Superman]

No, this stat is not telling you who the best player to have the ball in his hands is. Take 3pt%... the Bulls had Michael Jordan and Steve Kerr. Kerr is a career .454% 3pt shooter to Jordan's .327%... is the 3pt% stat flawed? Is it telling you to give the ball to Kerr rather than Jordan with the game on the line? Most certainly not... Kerr can't get his own shot off while Jordan can at will. The stat is only telling us that Kerr made a better percentage of his 3pt attempts than does Jordan... it's a fact, not up for debate. Kerr was a more efficient 3pt shooter than was Jordan... not a better one.

Actually, Steve Kerr was a better three point shooter than Michael Jordan. But watching the games tells you to put the ball in Jordan's hands, and let him get Kerr open, because Kerr can't shoot unless he's open. You don't know that from TS%. You only know that by watching the games.

(Edit: And I guess that gets to the heart of my problem with this stat. It doesn't separate shooters (Kerr, Miller, etc.) from scorers (Bird, Jordan, etc.))

My comment about taking the ball out of one player's hands and giving it to another goes back to the Captain's suggestion that maybe TS% tells you that one player should be shooting more and the other should be more selective. I only question the validity of this stat. You can use it for whatever you want to use it for, but I don't think it matters much either way, unless you're comparing players who took a similar amount of shots and play a similar role for their respective team.

 

[Superman]

No, BS101 would be things like total points and steals. This thread has gone well into BS401 and beyond.

Is there a particular reason you shortened "Basketball Stats 101" into BS101?

 

[VF21]

Is there a particular reason you shortened "Basketball Stats 101" into BS101?

Why no. Whatever gave you that idea?

 

[roasthawg]

Actually, Steve Kerr was a better three point shooter than Michael Jordan. But watching the games tells you to put the ball in Jordan's hands, and let him get Kerr open, because Kerr can't shoot unless he's open. You don't know that from TS%. You only know that by watching the games.

My comment about taking the ball out of one player's hands and giving it to another goes back to the Captain's suggestion that maybe TS% tells you that one player should be shooting more and the other should be more selective. I only question the validity of this stat. You can use it for whatever you want to use it for, but I don't think it matters much either way, unless you're comparing players who took a similar amount of shots and play a similar role for their respective team.

Fair enough... it does have its uses just like ft% has its. You can take one look at the ft% listed next to the players' names and decide pretty much who should shoot your technical fouls. TS% isn't quite as easy to use as that but it does give you an idea of which players you might want to run a few more plays for and which ones probably should shoot a little less. Ideally you'd like to have a roster full of guys that can score efficiently but there's obviously a lot more that goes into whether or not a guy is a good player than that.

 

[VF21]

And now...

I ask for a moment of silence to commemorate the passing of the equine.

Thank you.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

But see I have doubts even there. They appear to be apples and oranges offensive players. They are also both backcourt players, and I've noted several times how rare it has been for two prolific scoring backcourt guys to work out together.

But back to style -- if instead of Tyreke we right now had Webb as our star, Kevin works beautifully. He is Peja with quickness. The offensive styles mesh. Webb is a big, holds the ball waiting for plays to develop, reading defenses, and after 10-15 seconds of cuts, screens and whatnot if Kevin pops open Webb hits him. Be potent.

And if instead of Tyreke we had CP3 as our star right now, Kevin doesn't work quite as beautifully, but he works. CP3 is always looking for him, floor general and willing to wait for Kevin to pop open off of a screen or some such. Kevin does not fit as well as he does with Webb as a big, but certainly CP3 hits him when he's open for threes etc. and can get him in rhythm while jsut scoring opportunistically himself.

But what we have is Tyreke. And Tyreke is like Wade, LeBron, Kobe etc. He is not a selfish player, much less so than some of those guys, but he is going to control the ball, look to square his guy up and attack on almost every possession. If he gets cut off THEN he kicks it to the open perimeter guys like Donte, or Noc, or Casspi or whoever. But he's not sitting aorund waiting for a bunch of screens and cuts to take place while he reads it all all to set up a pure scoring guard. His penetration and offensive abilities are the key to his passing effectiveness. And so like I say, apples and oranges. Even if Kevin is willing to take a backseat, a true backseat, offensively, they are still two players from fundamentally different schools offensively. There is a different rhythm to their games. And sure, Kevin can back it all the way down and play at Reke's rhythm, but if he does than he really is no more effective than a Casspi or Green spotting up out there and waiting for Reke to create for them. And on the other side sitting around and waiting for a play to develop, not looking to score, just waiting to service another offensive player, flies directly in the face of Reke's instincts and the very reason he puts pressure on the defense. And he's a 20yr old rookie to boot. Its extremely doubtful he can play the position of distributor the way Kevin needs him to without getting knocked back into passivity, sitting and waiting for Kevin to do his thing while he is essentially shut down (which is largely what happened in those first few games). Their respective games do not naturally enhance each other, but rather conflict.

I don't disagree with you. I would imagine Martin in the floater role you described. I do think that offensively our team would be more efficient with Martin playing off the ball than Casspi or Green, because he is better from scoring from all over the court (great 3 point shooter, 2 point shooter, can put down 2-3 dribbles and go to the glass, savvy player who can pump fake and draw the foul). I certainly am not picturing him averaging 25PPG. However, in the Peja type role (or even in the role KMart had when we still had Artest and Bibby), I see him as a very efficient off-ball scorer.

Again, I question if Martin would be willing to play that role at this stage of his career. He very well may imagine (or you could argue have delusions) of himself as a top offensive option on a playoff team.