Talking point guard/Evans/etc. (split from Wolves grade thread)

Now that I think about it. You may have stumbled onto something. How many pure great pg's that average all these high number of assist have ever won a championship??? Look at some of them

John Stockton
Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Mark Jackson
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton

These are the cream of the crop for assist guys and some are the top ALL - TIME and non have ever won a championship. So yeah 10 ast guys are unable to win a championship.:D

I can think of 1 Isaiah Thomas
Gary Payton did win one, but don't forget Tim Hardaway (8.2 APG), Kevin Johnson (9.1 APG), or Rod Strickland (7.3 APG). 3 more pass first point guards that didn't have enough around them to win the whole thing.

The thing with the NBA is that it is such a star driven league. Even if you are an all time great player, your team can still get unlucky enough to be trumped by a single dominant force, like the MJ Bulls taking it to Stockton and Malone twice, or Wilt continuously losing to Russell and the Celtics. It's mostly about the stars you can assemble without killing the team chemistry, and, unfortunately, more about talent aquisition than about pure stats, heart, hustle, and character.
 
Not this argument again....

This is the way I feel... Evans is a combo guard.. A combo guard that needs the ball to be effective. Same as what I had been saying since before he left Memphis.. I was wrong when I said I didn't think he would be effective here.. He has been a lot better than what I thought he would be, but that does not change the fact that he's a combo guard that needs the ball.. Hmm.. Kind of like Webber I guess. He had the ball all the time. Almost more than Bibby did. Did not make him our PG just meant that he is dominant when he has the ball.

It's not a knock on Evans that he's not a PG.. It's just a position and if we win with him doing what he's doing than so be it. I am all for him playing the way he does..

What I am really watching for is when Martin comes back whether or not Evans will go back to being ineffective if Martin is ball dominate.
 
I won't respond to most of that except the part about Martin being ball dominate. 15 attempts per game is hardly ball dominate.
 
Billups was whatever? Oh, that's good. Real good. And blind.

for the record, billups that season was just whatever... during the regular season his numbers were 16/5 and in the post season his numbers were 16/5... he didnt do anything special, they won so they gave him finals mvp... who else would they have given it to? prince? he locked down kobe... wallace and wallace? rip? billups won it by default.

I won't respond to most of that except the part about Martin being ball dominate. 15 attempts per game is hardly ball dominate.

he did say if....
 
Ok I have pointed this game out before and I think we need reminding of it again. The 5th game of the year (Kevins last game) also the first game that May and Mason were out of the starting lineup. Lineup was Evans, Martin, Noc, JT, Hawes.

Evans 21 attempts
Martin 22
Thompson 15
Noc 10
Hawes 9

beno off bench with 11
Casspi 5
Greene DNP

We played a good game just alot of missed shots by Reke and Thompson Noc is were the min should come from for Greene and Casspi

Beno had 24 btw Casspi 13 Noc had 32 min that game

get rid of Noc divide those min between casspi and Greene thats 45 min between the 2.
oh yeah Mason had 4 min that game add those in as well.

Now Its a whole new story when Garcia gets back. We will cross that bridge when it gets here.
 
^^^if petrie can somehow trade nocioni and beno we wouldnt have this problem with minutes... though is this in the right thread?
 
Wait so your in agreement with me??

well yeah... i dont want nocioni or beno on this team... if it costs us martin or even one of the bigs i would do it in a heartbeat as long as we get a big in return.
 
And those 10 FTA per game are given to him by Santa?! :confused:


Thats 5 more attempts of which some are and 1's and techs so with the and 1's the attempt is counted as well. I mean we can count FTA for all of them. Tyreke is averaging what 6 a game now?
 
I won't respond to most of that except the part about Martin being ball dominate. 15 attempts per game is hardly ball dominate.


Technically it's not 15 shots a game.. In efficiency terms it is, but with all the free throws and stuff it adds up to a lot more than 15 shots a game.. Lets say he didn't get one call in a game where he would normally take 15 recorded shots... It would be somewhere around 20-22.. He does have the ball a lot, it's just he is so dang efficient with the ball..
 
"It's not often when you're playing a team that the game plan is to stop a rookie," Hill said. "(But) he runs the show (for the Kings), so we're certainly very keyed in and focused on him. … It just shows how good and how special he is. He can play. He's talented."

- Grant Hill


I'm going to go with Grant Hill's opinion on this one.
 
AM is a the best example of a skipping record that I've ever seen. And it is becoming extremely, extremely annoying... this forum is becoming nearly unreadable.

Tyreke Evans is the best thing to happen to our team in the past five years. And he will continue to be the best thing to happen to us for another 5-10. Why can't you just be happy that we have a superstar in the making? Ricky Rubio hasn't proven anything, and we can't have this debate until he does something in the league. So, for the sake of the forum, can you please just drop the argument? For once?
 
cant the same be said for tyreke?
Of course it can and thats part of the problem.

Both need the ball to be effective and this talk that K-Mart only need 15 FTA to get his points is ridicilous. He needs more than that. He is always right up there in number of FTA per game in the entire league so really he needs 19-20 shots per game to get his points which is precisely a similar number that Tyreke will need to get his.

Its a fairly decent number of needed shots to get the points especially when you consider both are permieter players.
 
Maybe I'm showing my vintage here, but I remember a time when basketball players and football players were not defined as single-dimensional. George Blanda as a QB and a kicker? Tim Duncan as a PF and a center? Deon Sanders as a cornerback and wide-reciever?

Looking at Tyreke, I see a PLAYER. Whatever position he's assigned, he'll bring it all, and make his teammates better in the process.

p.s. I shot the Kings/Timberwolves game (gallery link to come) and was commenting to a fellow photographer, "Hey, get ready to get some good shots of Minnesota's draft choice, Rubio." There was a blank stare back, and then I added, "Guess we'll need a way longer lens!"
 
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could be worse... try looking up the number of combo guards with rings...;)

Dwyane Wade.
(If you stretch - maybe Magic Johnson)

AND... I think that's pretty much it.

The combo guard is a relatively new concept, I think it originated here with Bobby Jackson.

(just exercising the brain AM, not jabbing at you)
 
Dwyane Wade.
(If you stretch - maybe Magic Johnson)

AND... I think that's pretty much it.

The combo guard is a relatively new concept, I think it originated here with Bobby Jackson.

yeah... thats pretty much bobby and crawford... one is more of a pg and the other is more of a sg. magic was a point forward before there was a point forward. wade is a straight up sg now... his first 2 years he was combo guard but he is pretty much a sg now... there isnt really anything combo about his game if he were 2 inches taller he would **** on kobe.
 
Dwyane Wade.
(If you stretch - maybe Magic Johnson)

AND... I think that's pretty much it.

The combo guard is a relatively new concept, I think it originated here with Bobby Jackson.

(just exercising the brain AM, not jabbing at you)

Vinny Johnson in the 80's.
 
More title teams than not for a lot of years have featured big guards that control the offense. What are Kobe and Jordan?


I view as them ball handling wingmen. I don't like to place them in the combo guard category (even though they play 2 guard) because they were....


You know what? The harder I try and justify it, the more your point looks legit. Guess I wasn't thinking hard enough.
 
Now that I think about it. You may have stumbled onto something. How many pure great pg's that average all these high number of assist have ever won a championship??? Look at some of them

John Stockton
Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Mark Jackson
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton

These are the cream of the crop for assist guys and some are the top ALL - TIME and non have ever won a championship. So yeah 10 ast guys are unable to win a championship.:D

I can think of 1 Isaiah Thomas

And if you took the ones who were in the finals and swapped them with the other teams PG. I bet the same team wins.
 
Dwyane Wade.
(If you stretch - maybe Magic Johnson)

AND... I think that's pretty much it.

The combo guard is a relatively new concept, I think it originated here with Bobby Jackson.

(just exercising the brain AM, not jabbing at you)

Maybe the question would be better if it asked "how many teams won the championship in the last 20 years that had combo guards". Or how about "The last 20 teams to win the championship had ______ as their combo guard" would be more like it. Because out of the last 20 championships, I guarantee that most had a ball dominant player who was the #1 or #2 option.

I think the real argument here is "Would the Kings have a better shot in the long run if Petrie had drafted a pure pg or a future superstar to play pg?" And section101 and aries are vehemently arguing that the Kings had a better shot at a championship drafting Rubio vs. Evans. And all the rest of us can see that drafting Evans as that player based on the results he is showing us vs. the fantasy section101 and aries have of what if the Kings had drafted Rubio (assuming a buyout could have been reached and he actually came to America, a BIG 'what if').


I, and most of the rest of the folks that have posted, argue for the sake of results. Others seem to like to argue about fantasy. I think results will beat fantasy 100% of the time, don't you?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
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And if you took the ones who were in the finals and swapped them with the other teams PG. I bet the same team wins.

And by stating so you prove the point of every person on here, minus a minute couple. Thanks!
(edited out "You are basically telling us that the player who has the better pg, the one who can dominate other pg's not just by assists, wins." because it is too "position oriented" and I am not making the mistake others might have drawn me into")

That point being that it doesn't matter who has the best players DEFINED POSITION WISE by some stupid rule book or personal ideal will win, but that the team with the best individual players will win. We saw that with 2002 and the fact that we had the BEST TEAM but couldn't win, however the Lakers had the 2 best players AT THEIR POSITIONS and won. 3 times in a row, in fact. As much as we hate to admit/relive it, the Lakers had the best person 'playing' sg and the best person 'playing' center in the entire league. And they won. So what is your argument based on, exactly?
 
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thats an impressive list of pgs none of them are great pgs... nor were they the stars of their respective teams. tyreke evans is the star of this team and currently their leading scorer... out of the pgs on that list only parker can really claim to have been the star of their team at the time. even that is a stretch because tim duncan is the real star of the show. billups was whatever in his 2004 series. fisher? harper? armstrong? are you serious?

how many of those teams had hall of fame sgs that averaged about 5 assists per game? the bulls(jordan) and lakers(kobe) would occupy 10 of those 19 championship teams. tim duncan would have 4 of the remaining 9...

its funny that people actually use this as an argument against a pg that averages 10 assists a game(usually when that team doesnt have one:rolleyes:). thats like saying that you wouldnt want chris paul as our pg because he averages 10 assists per game and hasnt won a ring yet.

Why do we need a past first pg when we have Evans? If you look at the last 20 years you can tell it isnot important to have a past first pg. So why do we need one now?
 
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