Talking point guard/Evans/etc. (split from Wolves grade thread)

[Bricklayer]

And that's not a problem as long as the team is getting around 25 per game. It's not so much individuals as the team which means moving the ball.

There is exactly 1 team in the entire NBA averaging 25 ast/gm, and that is Utah.

Nobody did it in 08-09.

Two teams in 07-08 (Utah, Phoenix).

One in 06-07 (Phoenix).

One in 05-06 (Phoenix).

None in 04-05.


And in all our great years we managed to do it exactly 1 time ourselves (03-04) and we were the best passing team of that generation. Our asssits from '99 to '04 were 22.6, 23.8, 22.6, 23.9, 24.8, 26.2.

Don't you think you might be setting the bar a TAD high?

 

[Entity]

Or the ever popular never reply to thread and pretend it never happened and bring it back up in 2 weeks as if it was forgotten. Brick save that post so you can just paste it at any time. Or put it as your sig.

 

[Entity]

I'm sorry I may be a bit confused. Is this argument a dirivative of the same old argument since draft day? Actually if Tyreke averaged 8 TO per game right now I seriously wouldn't give a damn. This kid is awesome and anybody putting a negative on anything he has done for this team is an idiot. I'm just sayin.... not pointing to anybody in particular just in case someone is out there.

 

[bajaden]

I like pass first PGs as much as the next guy, but being overly fascinated by them shows an ignorance of this little factoid:

Starting PG Assists for NBA Champions, last 19 years:

08-09 Fisher 3.2
07-08 Rondo 5.1
06-07 Parker 5.5
05-06 Williams 4.9
04-05 Parker 6.1
03-04 Billups 5.7
02-03 Parker 5.3
01-02 Fisher 2.6
00-01 Shaw 3.2
99-00 Harper 3.4
98-99 Johnson 7.4
97-98 Harper 2.9
96-97 Harper 2.5
95-96 Harper 2.6
94-95 Smith 4.0
93-94 Smith 4.2
92-93 Armstrong 4.0
91-92 Armstrong 3.2
90-91 Armstrong 3.7

Makes me wonder why we didn't win last year?

 

[Entity]

Makes me wonder why we didn't win last year?

We should have traded for Fisher I knew it.....

 

[bajaden]

One of the knocks on Tyreke coming out of college was his assist to turnover ratio, which was around 1 to 1. So I thought just in case we get real lucky and get to draft Wall, I thought I might start the next debate over whether he's a real point guard or not, since his assist to turnover ratio is around 1 to 1...

 

[Kingsguy881]

I like pass first PGs as much as the next guy, but being overly fascinated by them shows an ignorance of this little factoid:

Starting PG Assists for NBA Champions, last 19 years:

08-09 Fisher 3.2
07-08 Rondo 5.1
06-07 Parker 5.5
05-06 Williams 4.9
04-05 Parker 6.1
03-04 Billups 5.7
02-03 Parker 5.3
01-02 Fisher 2.6
00-01 Shaw 3.2
99-00 Harper 3.4
98-99 Johnson 7.4
97-98 Harper 2.9
96-97 Harper 2.5
95-96 Harper 2.6
94-95 Smith 4.0
93-94 Smith 4.2
92-93 Armstrong 4.0
91-92 Armstrong 3.2
90-91 Armstrong 3.7

Yup. I previously made a post that there was only 1 pass first pg to win a championship in the last 20 or so years. I was wrong. There were 2. Rondo and AJ.

 

[Kingsguy881]

There is exactly 1 team in the entire NBA averaging 25 ast/gm, and that is Utah.

Nobody did it in 08-09.

Two teams in 07-08 (Utah, Phoenix).

One in 06-07 (Phoenix).

One in 05-06 (Phoenix).

None in 04-05.


And in all our great years we managed to do it exactly 1 time ourselves (03-04) and we were the best passing team of that generation. Our asssits from '99 to '04 were 22.6, 23.8, 22.6, 23.9, 24.8, 26.2.

Don't you think you might be setting the bar a TAD high?

Not at all. As you can see, the teams that you listed ALL won the championship so that's exactly where we need to set the bar.

 

[Kings Faithful]

I don't see how someone can be so negative about this team and Evans. We wouldn't be nearly as good with Rubio at this point, especially with K-Mart and Garcia being injured. Evans can play PG and SG which means its easier to find minutes for other players and easier to create matchup problems for the other team. In the very best scenerio Rubio could be the next Steve Nash, without the shooting touch... I would still take Evans over Steve Nash without shooting (maybe over Steve Nash period in a few years time). The thing is, we got the best player in the draft, probably with or without Blake Griffins injury. We were the winners and the play of our team is reflecting that.

 

[Entity]

Not at all. As you can see, the teams that you listed ALL won the championship so that's exactly where we need to set the bar.

Actually NONE of those teams won the championship. Phx, Utah, nor Sac in our Glory years.

 

[AriesMar27]

I like pass first PGs as much as the next guy, but being overly fascinated by them shows an ignorance of this little factoid:

Starting PG Assists for NBA Champions, last 19 years:

08-09 Fisher 3.2
07-08 Rondo 5.1
06-07 Parker 5.5
05-06 Williams 4.9
04-05 Parker 6.1
03-04 Billups 5.7
02-03 Parker 5.3
01-02 Fisher 2.6
00-01 Shaw 3.2
99-00 Harper 3.4
98-99 Johnson 7.4
97-98 Harper 2.9
96-97 Harper 2.5
95-96 Harper 2.6
94-95 Smith 4.0
93-94 Smith 4.2
92-93 Armstrong 4.0
91-92 Armstrong 3.2
90-91 Armstrong 3.7

thats an impressive list of pgs none of them are great pgs... nor were they the stars of their respective teams. tyreke evans is the star of this team and currently their leading scorer... out of the pgs on that list only parker can really claim to have been the star of their team at the time. even that is a stretch because tim duncan is the real star of the show. billups was whatever in his 2004 series. fisher? harper? armstrong? are you serious?

how many of those teams had hall of fame sgs that averaged about 5 assists per game? the bulls(jordan) and lakers(kobe) would occupy 10 of those 19 championship teams. tim duncan would have 4 of the remaining 9...

its funny that people actually use this as an argument against a pg that averages 10 assists a game(usually when that team doesnt have one). thats like saying that you wouldnt want chris paul as our pg because he averages 10 assists per game and hasnt won a ring yet.

 

[6th]

Now you are (once again) really stretching. Who gives a rat's butt whether they were the star of their team, or not? These were the NBA Champions, you know, the ones who got the hardware. You're the one making a big darn deal about how important assists are to a pg. Obviously, they are not important enough to prevent them winning the trophy.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Billups was whatever? Oh, that's good. Real good. And blind.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Actually NONE of those teams won the championship. Phx, Utah, nor Sac in our Glory years.

I know.....I was using that as my point. Sorry, I missed out on the eye's rolling emoticon. I seem to have that small problem.

 

[est.1999]

You guys wanna know what our biggest issue is with AM? And what's actually HIS biggest issue as well? Is he's too obsessed with positions. Who cres if he's a PG or a SG or C, we have a superstar in the making. This team is young and changes and kinks will definitely be coming in the future. Why are you soooooo obsessed with what position he plays? Unbelievable!!!!

 

[Kingsguy881]

I think the main point that was/is being made is that your fetish with pass-first pg's is misguided, as there has not been a championship won by one since......oh heck, Magic? Who himself was a bit of an anomaly at the position, sort of like (gasp!) Tyreke is!

 

[FaStRmAn]

I really like Tyreke Evans and I think he is going to be an All Star caliber player in a very short time. Is that ok to say on this site?

I was as disappointed as everyone when the ping pong balls didn't fall in our favor, but sans evidence from a Blake Griffin sighting we appear to have won the lottery after all!!

I think Petrie did pretty good. Evans, Casspi, Rodriguez (in a draft day trade), and Brockman. They are ALL contributing this year! Very nice draft indeed.

When this year is done and we see where we are compared to the end of last year, I am thinking that there will be a dramatic improvement. Now that is what I call a good draft! Maybe Petrie's BEST Draft? I guess that is debatable. But WOW, what a great draft it looks like so far!

And what a great job Paul Westphal has done with this young team! I really like the way he is coaching and teaching the young players and making better NBA players out of them.

 

[6th]

I really like Tyreke Evans and I think he is going to be an All Star caliber player in a very short time. Is that ok to say on this site?

I was as disappointed as everyone when the ping pong balls didn't fall in our favor, but sans evidence from a Blake Griffin sighting we appear to have won the lottery after all!!

I think Petrie did pretty good. Evans, Casspi, Rodriguez (in a draft day trade), and Brockman. They are ALL contributing this year! Very nice draft indeed.

When this year is done and we see where we are compared to the end of last year, I am thinking that there will be a dramatic improvement. Now that is what I call a good draft! Maybe Petrie's BEST Draft? I guess that is debatable. But WOW, what a great draft it looks like so far!

And I couldn't agree more!

 

[Entity]

thats an impressive list of pgs none of them are great pgs... nor were they the stars of their respective teams. tyreke evans is the star of this team and currently their leading scorer... out of the pgs on that list only parker can really claim to have been the star of their team at the time. even that is a stretch because tim duncan is the real star of the show. billups was whatever in his 2004 series. fisher? harper? armstrong? are you serious?

how many of those teams had hall of fame sgs that averaged about 5 assists per game? the bulls(jordan) and lakers(kobe) would occupy 10 of those 19 championship teams. tim duncan would have 4 of the remaining 9...

its funny that people actually use this as an argument against a pg that averages 10 assists a game(usually when that team doesnt have one). thats like saying that you wouldnt want chris paul as our pg because he averages 10 assists per game and hasnt won a ring yet.

I think the point being made that most RATIONAL people would have picked up on is that we don't a NEED pg that averages 10 ast per game to be successful. And you are correct outside of billups those pg's did have great players on the floor with them. In our case our pg is our great player so to take him away and get the 10ast guy then you are stuck looking for that great player. We have been looking for that for about 5 years now. They don't come around often. But nobody said we woulndn't want evans to average 10 a game. We just dont think of it as a negative that out weights the positives like you do.

 

[ParniValjak]

thats an impressive list of pgs none of them are great pgs... nor were they the stars of their respective teams. tyreke evans is the star of this team and currently their leading scorer... out of the pgs on that list only parker can really claim to have been the star of their team at the time. even that is a stretch because tim duncan is the real star of the show. billups was whatever in his 2004 series. fisher? harper? armstrong? are you serious?

how many of those teams had hall of fame sgs that averaged about 5 assists per game? the bulls(jordan) and lakers(kobe) would occupy 10 of those 19 championship teams. tim duncan would have 4 of the remaining 9...

its funny that people actually use this as an argument against a pg that averages 10 assists a game(usually when that team doesnt have one). thats like saying that you wouldnt want chris paul as our pg because he averages 10 assists per game and hasnt won a ring yet.

Err... I am pretty sure both Parker and Billups have won finals MVPs so I would have thought they would have been pretty important stars to their team.

The issue that you are overlooking here is that a PG does not have to average 8+ apg for a team to win a championship. Its the sum of parts as a whole that is important and to not caul Billups and Parker stars is just laughable. Surely you can't expect people to take you seriously with that dribble?!

 

[Telemachus]

kinda, sorta, not really... some just didnt know how good he would be so his numbers in the beginning were just amazing to them, but to me(and others) they were just run of the mill... which if you read enough posts here starts a lot of unnecessary drama... some didnt expect 18/5/5 to be his plateau numbers. but once they saw that they went ape**it over it. thats why some of them are so defensive of evans.

I think where you have problems is that you make statements like the one in bold above that are just ridiculous. Tyreke is putting up 20/5/5 (which you call "run of the mill"), but is something ONLY 3 other rookies have ever done in the history of the NBA. That makes your point of view way beyond being out of left field.

Most of us who liked Evans from the beginning had a very good idea what he was capable of and how good he might become. However, you will be hard-pressed to find anyone who thought he would be this good this soon. You can say that you saw this from the beginning if you want, but it doesn't hold any water. All you focused on when he was drafted was that he wasn't a "pure PG", which most of us said "who cares". I have been watching basketball most of my life and have played in HS and college, and you can count on one hand the number of "pure PGs" who have ever been more than role players on their teams.

 

[Luv4Kings]

Oh look? I started another thread I didn't start!

I see what you're doing VF21. You just like my posts so much they deserve their own thread.

 

[Kingsguy881]

I think where you have problems is that you make statements like the one in bold above that are just ridiculous. Tyreke is putting up 20/5/5 (which you call "run of the mill"), but is something ONLY 3 other rookies have ever done in the history of the NBA. That makes your point of view way beyond being out of left field.

Most of us who liked Evans from the beginning had a very good idea what he was capable of and how good he might become. However, you will be hard-pressed to find anyone who thought he would be this good this soon. You can say that you saw this from the beginning if you want, but it doesn't hold any water. All you focused on when he was drafted was that he wasn't a "pure PG", which most of us said "who cares". I have been watching basketball most of my life and have played in HS and college, and you can count on one hand the number of "pure PGs" who have ever been more than role players on their teams.

Aww, come on, 20-5-5 is dime-a-dozen for a rookie

 

[Entity]

^ you got it now ^

 

[AriesMar27]

Oh look? I started another thread I didn't start!

I see what you're doing VF21. You just like my posts so much they deserve their own thread.

you should take my sig... it actually does apply to you. you really dont start these things.

 

[AriesMar27]

You guys wanna know what our biggest issue is with AM? And what's actually HIS biggest issue as well? Is he's too obsessed with positions. Who cres if he's a PG or a SG or C, we have a superstar in the making. This team is young and changes and kinks will definitely be coming in the future. Why are you soooooo obsessed with what position he plays? Unbelievable!!!!

thats probably true. im obsessed with positions and for some unknown reason i have to respond to every post that has one of my posts quoted. i really should just read it and move on to the next post.

 

[Entity]

thats like saying that you wouldnt want chris paul as our pg because he averages 10 assists per game and hasnt won a ring yet.

Now that I think about it. You may have stumbled onto something. How many pure great pg's that average all these high number of assist have ever won a championship??? Look at some of them

John Stockton
Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Mark Jackson
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton

These are the cream of the crop for assist guys and some are the top ALL - TIME and non have ever won a championship. So yeah 10 ast guys are unable to win a championship.

I can think of 1 Isaiah Thomas

 

[AriesMar27]

Now that I think about it. You may have stumbled onto something. How many pure great pg's that average all these high number of assist have ever won a championship??? Look at some of them

John Stockton
Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Mark Jackson
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton

These are the cream of the crop for assist guys and some are the top ALL - TIME and non have ever won a championship. So yeah 10 ast guys are unable to win a championship.

I can think of 1 Isaiah Thomas

once we figure out why that is we can solve the greatest mystery in nba history...

it cant be defense because payton and kidd were great defenders at their position. kidd and paul are good rebounders... man, im going to look up all of their teams and see what went wrong with them. granted i know why stockton could win one, jordan.... payton has a ring, he got it with miami... kidd lost to shaq and duncan... so all we need to do is find out what happened to nash, jackson and paul... well, nash and paul are easy... they couldnt beat tim duncan. damn marc jackson, whats wrong with you?

 

[AriesMar27]

once we figure out why that is we can solve the greatest mystery in nba history...

it cant be defense because payton and kidd were great defenders at their position. kidd and paul are good rebounders... man, im going to look up all of their teams and see what went wrong with them. granted i know why stockton could win one, jordan.... payton has a ring, he got it with miami... kidd lost to shaq and duncan... so all we need to do is find out what happened to nash, jackson and paul... well, nash and paul are easy... they couldnt beat tim duncan. damn mark jackson, whats wrong with you?

okay i looked up mark jackson to see what was wrong with him and he played for teams that just couldnt win it all... jordan stopped him from getting to the finals and then he played for the clippers and then shaq gave him and the pacers the business when he was there... i knew he went to the finals at least once... looking back, mark jackson had it easy... ewing then reggie miller...

so that means only nash and paul havent at least made it to the nba finals...

 

[Kingsguy881]

okay i looked up mark jackson to see what was wrong with him and he played for teams that just couldnt win it all... jordan stopped him from getting to the finals and then he played for the clippers and then shaq gave him and the pacers the business when he was there... i knew he went to the finals at least once... looking back, mark jackson had it easy... ewing then reggie miller...

so that means only nash and paul havent at least made it to the nba finals...

you mean a pass first pg will always get beaten by a team with a superstar?