Ranking Bibby among PG's
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Baron is a CWebb type character --much maligned, and rightfully so, in his early 20's for lack of discipline and druability, but absolutely dripping with talent and surging into his prime. The truest heir to the Timmy Hardaway/Kevin Johnson mantle in the game (Deron will be there soon I think). And one of only a handul of guys who can easily drop 20-10 on you, and throw in 2 or 3 steals, maybe 4 or 5 rebounds to boot. He can completely dominate, and physically dominate too. A couple of years back, when he quit the lazy 3pt chucking (last year he was down ot about 4 a game from near 10 at his peak)...that was the corner. Not the end of last season. That was just when the general public (aka "sheep") finally caught on to the monster you could see building in the Bay ever since he arrived there. Once he finally realized that his strength is absolutely the core strength of a great PG -- dominance off the drive both as a scorer and passer...Top 5 PG. A real PG too. Leader, creator, driver equally deadly finishing for himself or tossing passes every bit as nifty as Nash or Kidd. As far as all around do it all true PGs, its he, Nash, Kidd, Deron and Paul. Billups remains radically overrated and is the muggle of the elite PGs -- the hardworking grinder without the natural instincts. Parker is just a scorer. Bibby just a shooter. Arenas and Iverson OGs in PGs clothing.
Adn as an aside, statistically he is very much Top 5 worthy. Here are your #5 candidates by the stats:
Baron 20.1pts (.439 .304 .745) 4.4reb 8.1ast 2.1stl 0.5blk 3.1TO
Billups 17.0pts (.427 .345 .883) 3.4reb 7.2ast 1.2stl 0.2blk 2.0TO
Deron 16.2pts (.456 .322 .767) 3.3reb 9.3ast 1.0stl 0.2blk 3.1TO
Paul 17.3pts (.437 .350 .818) 4.4reb 8.9ast 1.8stl 0.1blk 2.5TO
Parker 18.6pts (.520 .395 .783) 3.2reb 5.5ast 1.1stl 0.1blk 2.5TO
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Kingster
Hall of Famer
I think I'd much rather roll the dice with Barron. After all, Bibby hasn't been the epitome of health either.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Now that is CRAZY!
Mike Bibby in the same company as Tony Parker, Williams, Felton, Chris Paul and Barron Davis??????? I take it you own a Mike Bibby jersey. If that's the case, then why haven't we unloaded him by now? I guess Petrie is waiting to get Chris Paul or Williams back in a trade....
No wonder we can't trade him........
Now that is CRAZY!
If that's the case, then why haven't we unloaded him by now? I guess Petrie is waiting to get Chris Paul or Williams back in a trade....
Well it's broken up in 3 tiers of 5....if you consider TJ Ford, Andre Miller, Devin Harris, Mo Williams, Raymond Felton better than Bibby then you may continue on your drunken tirade.
Agreed..Baron has a good 30 game stretch and is considered top 5 whereas Bibby has CONSISTENTLY out performed him throughout his career and has a bad season for the reasons.
This site has way too many pessimists.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Or realists.
There has not been a single point in Mike Bibby's career when he has been more talented than Baron Davis. Not one. There have been moments in his career when he has outperformed him. But Mike's maxed out what he can do with the tools he had -- the negativity around Baron has always been that he rarely has with the tools he has been given. And yet there is this, once again demostrating that hype, talking heads, and perception don't always equate nicely to reality:
Mike Bibby, career:
36.5min 16.8pts (.441 .371 .807) 3.3reb 6.2ast 1.3stl 0.1blk 2.5TO
Baron Davis, career:
34.9min 16.4pts (.411 .324 .681) 4.0reb 7.2ast 1.9stl 0.4blk 2.8TO
What Mike has done has been more consistent over his career -- but its been consistently good/solid. And yet Baron, for all his ups and downs, for all his underacheivement, has been right there in overall productivity. In fact basically aside from shooting he is better at every single aspect of basketball. He has a talent Mike never has had, or will have. Difference being that Baron's has been a career full of brillaint highs that Mike Bibby could never match, and then ugly lows that until last year, Bibby would never sink to.
Reminds me of the old, and dumb, comparisons people made between Webb in his prime and Brand back in the day. Webb was the FAR more talented player, a HOF talent that just had so many things distracting. But there was just not a shred of doubt who the real talent was. Given a more duarable body, a slightly different brain, Webb is an all timer. Brand..solid. Consistent. But never ever able to match the high end brilliance. Its the same way here. Baron is a guy who has always had borderline HOF type talent. You make him more coachable, more durable, and he's right there. whne focused he is just simply better than just about anybody you put out in front of him. In fact actually his predecessors like Timmy and KJ had durability problems themselves -- you attack the rim as a PG, that's going to happen. And Mike is like Brand. A good player. A solid player. And never once a true Great. Never a HOF talent. Never close. Now you take one guy putting it all together, peaking, while the other may be beginning to fade a bit, and the ladder is clear.
Similar debates on here over the years:
Webb v. Brand (or J. O'Neal or Sheed)
Peja v. TMac
Brad v. Yao
Mike v. Baron
Webb, TMac, Yao and Baron are the talents there.
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Miles and Miles
G-League
Here is how Yahoo Fantasy Basketball had it at the end of last year. Problem with the rankings is that it doesn't take defense or the non-tangibles into account. Just stats.
Gilbert Arenas
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Leandro Barbosa
Chauncey Billups
Jason Terry
Kirk Hinrich
Dwyane Wade
Chris Paul
Baron Davis
Ben Gordon
Rafer Alston
Deron Williams
Mike Bibby
Allen Iverson
Tony Parker
Andre Miller
Charlie Bell
Monta Ellis
Mo Williams
Jarrett Jack
Raymond Felton
Luther Head
Joe Johnson
T.J. Ford
Miles and Miles
G-League
GP FGA FGM FTA FTM 3PTM PTS REB AST ST BLK TO PF
Bibby 82 1166 471 347 288 173 1403 263 388 88 6 197 139
AI 65 1313 581 610 485 62 1709 193 468 123 13 268 95
Parker 77 1096 570 350 274 15 1429 250 420 82 6 191 137
Not sure if that will turn out, but basically AI missed too many games and turned the ball over too many times. Parker didn't make any threes.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Its a fantasy bball list. Is always going to bear at best a tangential relation to reality, and is entirely dependent on what categories are "scored" vs. not. For several years in the early 2000s Antoine Walker was a top 10 fantasy bball player because he chucked up tons of threes and normally total 3pt shots hit are counted, but %/misses are not.
Bibby is normally a Top 40 pick in fantasy ball because he shoots efficiently, shoots threes, and does enough otherwise not to hurt you in other scoring categories. Has little if anythign to do with actual effectiveness on the floor. Smush Parker was a nasty sleeper pickup two years ago in fanatsy ball too because he got steals and shot threes-- two hard to find categories. And he sucks. Tony Parker is normally way undervalued, as is Andre Miller, who are both midround picks because they don't shoot enoguh threes. Fantasy ball is its own world.
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I started this thread as I figured there would be a big range of perception on Bibby. Surprised to see the differing opinions on Tony Parker. Some guys having Parker barely making the top 10 in PG's is surprising. He gets to the rim at will. Everyone knows he's going to the rim and he still gets there. He shoots over 50%!!!! Would you rather have Bibby jacking up 3's at a 36% clip (and he does shoot a boatload of 3's) or do you want Parker penetrating and scoring on most of his shots in the lane. His jumper, while not outstanding, is not something to be ignored anymore. Parker plays outstanding defense.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
His defense ain't that hot at all. And he doesn't create for other players. He's a scorer. A "PG" averaging 5.5ast. He definitely passed up Bibby a couple of years back, but that doesn't put him in the class of the guys who actually run their team and create offense. He just gets a big boost in reputation for being on a top team with a top system.
That ability to penetrate is a key PG trait, but the idea/reason for it being key is it breaks downt he defense and lets you make everybody else better in a way you can't as a jump shooter. Except of course parker rarely does. For him penetration is just a means to score, so its not that that much superior to outside shooting. He is amazing at it, but its pretty much the only thing he does at an elite level.
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Your right...I don't think I've ever seen Parker penetrate and kick out to Bowen on the side for an open 3.
If Parker shot a low % (40-43%), then he wouldn't be so exceptional. But here's his last 3 seasons % shooting from the floor:04-05 - 48%
05-06 - 54%
06-07 - 52%
I think your underestimating his defense. Not saying he's Gary Payton but he's above average to good on defense. Imagine Parker playing in an uptempo offense like Nash. I'd venture to say that his assists would increase.
FWIW, here's a link to an article in Dime magazine.
http://www.dimemag.com/2007/06/12/nbas-top-10-point-guards/
Sure don't agree with the Marbury ranking and I think Paul is low. Bibby in the next tier of PG's.
http://www.dimemag.com/2007/06/12/nbas-top-10-point-guards/
Sure don't agree with the Marbury ranking and I think Paul is low. Bibby in the next tier of PG's.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
No way in Hades is Bibby in your second tier. You've got it right about everybody else in the 2nd tier, but that's beyond the pail putting him in the company of those guys. And if the Bobs want to give up Felton for Bibby that deal would have been made a looooooooooooooong time ago. Unless Petrie really is waiting for those GMs in that 2nd tier to give him a call. He's got a loooong wait.
And Harris is >> that Bibby. I'd love to see the Mavs be stupid enough to do that deal. Much more upside. Much more quickness. If Petrie would pull that off he'd redeem himself.
Ford? He and Bibby are roughly equivalent to me.
Miller - ?
Mo Williams - ?
But the second tier as you described it? - if he was that good we wouldn't be trying to get rid of him. That's just CRAZY!
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
The fascination with Harris still amazes me -- what has he done really? He's still fairly young and so maybe he'll start doing something of note, but right now he's a platoon player with shaky instincts for a PG. He of course is quick on defense, which is nice. But Baron exposed him badly there in the playoffs, and Devon was like a bug on the windshield against a power PG.
Just for comparison, at Harris' age (24) Mike Bibby nearly shot the two time defending champion Lakers out of the WCF. Which isn't a comment about Mike -- we know what he is and is not by ow. But ratehr about the sorts of things Harris has NOT done, and yet still gets this hype.
Just for comparison, at Harris' age (24) Mike Bibby nearly shot the two time defending champion Lakers out of the WCF. Which isn't a comment about Mike -- we know what he is and is not by ow. But ratehr about the sorts of things Harris has NOT done, and yet still gets this hype.
I think people like his athleticism a lot.
AyeCarly
G-League
Bibby categorical stat rankings
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byposition?pos=PG&conference=NBA&year=season_2006&sort=25
Compared to other PGs
example of Rank [22nd]: 21 players averaged better numbers for the season (based on playing 85% of teams games)
2007
Rank Category
22nd TOs
20th APG
5th PPG
19th FG%
11th RPG
13th SPG
27th BPG
2003
Rank Category
20th TOs
16th APG
4th PPG
5th FG%
7th RPG
7th SPG
3rd BPG
Definitely Top 5 PG in 2003, I agree with others ranking him 15+ for 2007
I love what Bibs has done for the Kings, single-handedly
getting us through playoff games with his lights-out
shooting. Human art-form. The crab walk.
Like others have said, he fit well with the passing bigs
as a scoring option/machine. However that team no
longer exists. His game (scoring) takes away from the
development of our younger players, which is the main
reason I feel we should trade him.
Let him shine on a team that can benefit from what he
does best (Cavs, Heat, etc.)
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byposition?pos=PG&conference=NBA&year=season_2006&sort=25
Compared to other PGs
example of Rank [22nd]: 21 players averaged better numbers for the season (based on playing 85% of teams games)
2007
Rank Category
22nd TOs
20th APG
5th PPG
19th FG%
11th RPG
13th SPG
27th BPG
2003
Rank Category
20th TOs
16th APG
4th PPG
5th FG%
7th RPG
7th SPG
3rd BPG
Definitely Top 5 PG in 2003, I agree with others ranking him 15+ for 2007
I love what Bibs has done for the Kings, single-handedly
getting us through playoff games with his lights-out
shooting. Human art-form. The crab walk.
Like others have said, he fit well with the passing bigs
as a scoring option/machine. However that team no
longer exists. His game (scoring) takes away from the
development of our younger players, which is the main
reason I feel we should trade him.
Let him shine on a team that can benefit from what he
does best (Cavs, Heat, etc.)
Kingster
Hall of Famer
It's fair to ask what Harris has done. And it's fair to ask what Bibby has done. But really, what's done is past. What I want to know is going forward who will better at doing. I wouldn't think twice before taking Harris over Bibby. I do like the idea of having a point guard that's quicker than my 2 guard. Harris is a jet, while Bibby now "waddles" when he runs. Have you noticed that he does a little "jump" (without getting off the floor) before every move he makes on the floor? It's as if he needs the assistance of gravity to help him get past the guy that's guarding him because his leg speed just isn't there. That leg injury he had a couple of years back did something to him. He's gone from being not very quick to being very slow for a point guard in the NBA. And that is after he lost that muscle mass in order to get quicker. Did you see a quicker Mike Bibby last year than the previous year? I didn't. That is worrisome. Forget about his wrist or thumb. A point guard who isn't quick is like having a shooting guard who can't shoot. Who do you want to have - a jet who is on the upside or a waddler on the downside? I'd take Harris in a nano-second.
RIP miyagi
G-League
i would put gilbert arenas in the top tier and chris paul back to tier 2. Not many point guards can do what gilbert does. Maybe iverson and baron. Unless we are going on pure point guard skills. But if we are talking about players, then gilbert is up there for me.
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