Ranking Bibby among PG's

[dude12]

Since there is such a wide range of opinions on Bibby's worth, I figured I would slot him out and compare him with the other PG's. I'm using talent, stats, upside or downside, contract, intangibles(leadership, age, ??) as criteria. I'll use a tier system to try and group guys.

1-5
Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Jason Kidd
Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups - I put him here over the next tier guys based on intangibles(winning a championship being one)

6-10
Deron Williams
Gilbert Arenas
Allen Iverson
Baron Davis - health dropped him down but easily can be a top 5 guy
TJ Ford- Ford over Miller based on age

11-15
Andre Miller
Mo Williams
Devin Harris - might be too high here, but I like the defense
Raymond Felton- going with the upside ahead of the other guys below
Mike Bibby - this may be too high

16-20
Stephon Marbury
Jarrett Jack
Luke Ridnour
Jamal Tinsley
Earl Watson

21-
Jameer Nelson
Juan Calderon
Steve Blake
Mike James
Rafer Alston
Atkins, Snow, Duhon, A Daniels, D Fisher, S Parker, Boykins, etc

Note: I didn't include Shaun Livingston, whose injury affects his status.
Didn't include Hinrich, J Terry, Barbosa, Wade, M Ellis...figured they were more 2-guards than anything.

I may have been too kind to Marbury and Bibby. Their bloated contracts do not equal their production. For a rebuilding team like the Kings, I would much rather have Jarrett Jack or Ridnour.

I am confidant in saying that most teams in the NBA would rather have the 1st 14 PG's listed than Bibby. Bibby's value is based solely on his ability to score....defense horrible, assists average at best, FG% has gone down for 4 straight years, can knock down a 3 but takes alot of poor attempts from 3-point land, doesn't really get to the foul-line. How valuable can this guy be?

 

[Gary]

Wow... I would not rate Bibby THAT low.. He still is top ten imo.

But yah, he has declined over the last few years. Bibby can still play though.

 

[HndsmCelt]

I am not so sure that Bibby has declined. First the competion got a LOT better in the past 3 seasons. Secondly Bibby works GREAT as pass first PG who draws lots of double teams AND as a second or third scoring option. Since the great bleeding began in 05 he has been forced to become a first scoring option and last season in a directionless enviorment he was expected to create... not his forte. The thing with Bibby is that what he does well he does VERY well, but his short commings are BAD. Rick used his assets to the max runing plays opening up shots for him and surronding him with passing options. This greatly increased his stock. To be fair to Muss he only had the wretched refuse Petrie stuck him with to draw plays arround, but I was never convienced his X's and O's took player ablity into account.

Bottom Line: What makes a player (espcially a PG) valuable is as much about the system they are playing in as the skill set of that PG. Bibby is a top 10 if not top 5 PG for a passing team with multiple scoreing options. He is NOT a top 10 PG in a freeform fast break team or a half court team that plays hard D. If New Coach guy wants to get the best out of Bibby he will focus LOTS of plays on Brad/Reef/Hawes as first options, Martin as a kick out second option and Bibby as a third. Bibby will see a lot fewer double teams, and those 3 bigs can all score and pass and HAVE decent basketball IQ's Bibby's assists will sky rocket again, his shooting percentage will go up and he will look like gold out there again.

 

[kupman]

I would place Bibby in the 6-10 group. I would move Baron out of that group to make room for Bibby. Bibby is clearly more favorable than anyone you have in the 11-15 group.

Yes, I know, Baron looked great in the playoffs. However, as the totality of who Baron is as a player, you have to consider that he spends half his time on the side lines hurt.

All in all, I think this list makes it apparent that most teams do not possess a very good point guard. I think that the presence of Mike on the Kings is currently very under appreciated.

 

[Smills91]

Why is TJ Ford and the other 4 in the 11-15 range ahead of Bibby? He's had ONE bad year due to injury. He has declined over "YEARS"...in fact his stats have suggested otherwise. This past season was due to TWO factors. His wrist and Mussleman. Watch Bibby bounce back into a career year this year.

 

[Smills91]

1-5
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Chauncey Billups
Gilbert Arenas
Allen Iverson

6-10
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Mike Bibby
Tony Parker
Baron Davis


11-15
Andre Miller
Mo Williams
TJ Ford
Devin Harris
Raymond Felton


16-20
Stephon Marbury
Jarrett Jack
Luke Ridnour
Jamal Tinsley
Earl Watson

21-
Jameer Nelson
Juan Calderon
Steve Blake
Mike James
Rafer Alston
Atkins, Snow, Duhon, A Daniels, D Fisher, S Parker, Boykins, etc

THat's a LOT closer to accurate...if you're basing things off of SOLELY last season, you're sorely mistaken.

 

[VF21]

Why is TJ Ford and the other 4 in the 11-15 range ahead of Bibby? He's had ONE bad year due to injury. He has declined over "YEARS"...in fact his stats have suggested otherwise. This past season was due to TWO factors. His wrist and Mussleman. Watch Bibby bounce back into a career year this year.

I don't think the list is strictly numerical. He says he's ranking people in tiers, which would mean the first tier is: Nash, Paul, Kidd, Parker and Billups (but not necessarily first through fifth in that order).

I took it to mean Bibby is in the same group as Williams, Miller, Harris and Felton, one step below the group of Williams, Arenas, Iverson, Davis and Ford.

And, quite honestly, I don't have a problem with that if you're ranking based on current comparisons.

THat's a LOT closer to accurate...if you're basing things off of SOLELY last season, you're sorely mistaken.

Erm, closer to accurate based on what? His opinion, especially using a tier system and not single ranking, is just as valid and arguably easier to defend than yours.

 

[Smills91]

I don't think the list is strictly numerical. He says he's ranking people in tiers, which would mean the first tier is: Nash, Paul, Kidd, Parker and Billups (but not necessarily first through fifth in that order).

I took it to mean Bibby is in the same group as Williams, Miller, Harris and Felton, one step below the group of Williams, Arenas, Iverson, Davis and Ford.

And, quite honestly, I don't have a problem with that if you're ranking based on current comparisons.



Erm, closer to accurate based on what? His opinion, especially using a tier system and not single ranking, is just as valid and arguably easier to defend than yours.

I'd switch Bibby and Ford. Bibby on a DOWN year(due to injury and INEPT ERIC) was as good as that third tier, maybe even slightly better still. He's in that range with Davis/Parker and those guys in the list I made.

 

[TaxMan]

I'd probably bump billups and ford down one level each, but I agree bibby is in the right level in your rankings. Even at his peak (or at least when his game was was viewed in a better light), he was probably a 6-10 guy.

 

[Miles and Miles]

1-5
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Chauncey Billups
Gilbert Arenas
Allen Iverson

6-10
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Mike Bibby
Tony Parker
Baron Davis


11-15
Andre Miller
Mo Williams
TJ Ford
Devin Harris
Raymond Felton


16-20
Stephon Marbury
Jarrett Jack
Luke Ridnour
Jamal Tinsley
Earl Watson

21-
Jameer Nelson
Juan Calderon
Steve Blake
Mike James
Rafer Alston
Atkins, Snow, Duhon, A Daniels, D Fisher, S Parker, Boykins, etc

THat's a LOT closer to accurate...if you're basing things off of SOLELY last season, you're sorely mistaken.

I like this second list a lot better. Except that AI isn't a PG so I don't have him on any list. Also I would move Tony Parker up. I know the talent of the Spurs makes him look better but winning should be rewarded as is the case with Chauncey.

 

[DocHolliday]

1-5
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Chauncey Billups
Gilbert Arenas
Allen Iverson

6-10
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Mike Bibby
Tony Parker
Baron Davis


11-15
Andre Miller
Mo Williams
TJ Ford
Devin Harris
Raymond Felton


16-20
Stephon Marbury
Jarrett Jack
Luke Ridnour
Jamal Tinsley
Earl Watson

21-
Jameer Nelson
Juan Calderon
Steve Blake
Mike James
Rafer Alston
Atkins, Snow, Duhon, A Daniels, D Fisher, S Parker, Boykins, etc

THat's a LOT closer to accurate...if you're basing things off of SOLELY last season, you're sorely mistaken.

How do you figure that Bibby is ranked higher than one of the most illusive point guards in the NBA? Tony Parker is on a whole different level than Bibby.

 

[Jerryaki]

in terms of ability and talent, i'd just bump bibby down two slots to #10; i don't think anyone after the 10 spot is better than bibby.

however, in that top 10 then, i'd still rather have bibby over AI (chemistry issues) and davis (health concerns).

 

[KP]

With the right team he is still a championship caliber PG. His Clutch shooting alone is a rare and powerful playoff weapon. Give him some athletic swing men and a big man inside who can actually help and recover and he'll cause serious damage offensively and play adequate team defense. Maybe not in the top 5, but Top 10 at least. Looking at the overall list though... and it really strikes me, there are a lot of good Pg's in the league right now.

BTW, wasn't Tony Parker the Finals MVP Last year or am I missing something??

 

[dude12]

I don't think the list is strictly numerical. He says he's ranking people in tiers, which would mean the first tier is: Nash, Paul, Kidd, Parker and Billups (but not necessarily first through fifth in that order).

This is correct. I would venture to say that Nash is the undisputed top PG right now. After that anyone can make a case for a guy to be the next best PG or in the top 5. I chose my top 5 based on my criteria listed in the original post. That criteria is important. I don't think you can discount certain criteria as age, contracts(Bibby, Marbury), injury-factors(B Davis), etc.

I stick with my point that Bibby is not a top-10 PG. Absolutely not better than the top 2 tiers in my original list.

 

[VF21]

This is correct. I would venture to say that Nash is the undisputed top PG right now. After that anyone can make a case for a guy to be the next best PG or in the top 5. I chose my top 5 based on my criteria listed in the original post. That criteria is important. I don't think you can discount certain criteria as age, contracts(Bibby, Marbury), injury-factors(B Davis), etc.

I stick with my point that Bibby is not a top-10 PG. Absolutely not better than the top 2 tiers in my original list.

And, basely solely on performance and not homer bias, I would have to agree with you. Anyone on the "outside" viewing Bibby and the other PGs would be hard pressed to put him any higher than third tier at this point in his career.

Of course, that could all change. KP made some very good points about how Bibby is influenced by those around him, perhaps more than some other players.

 

[Backlash]

Point "Guard" and Bibby shouldnt even be in the same sentence. Not sure WHAT position he is playing out there, but he sure as hell doesn't guard the point.

And Parker is head and shoulders IMO above Bibby on that list and should be Top 5.

 

[dude12]

Of course, that could all change. KP made some very good points about how Bibby is influenced by those around him, perhaps more than some other players.

I agree totally with this point. PG's, QB's, head coaches, etc are better when you have quality people/players around them. On the other hand, some of the PG's make others around themselves better. When people describe Jason Kidd, they say he makes others around him better. They don't say that about Mike.

If Mike doesn't shoot a high %, he's not a top PG. If you like a guy who has a great assist to turnover ratio, it isn't Mike. He was ranked 38th amongst PG's with 1.97 assists to TO. If the argument is that he's a scoring PG, then he has to shoot a high % or get to the foul line or play defense. Tony Parker ranked 34th in the ratio with 2.20. Parker shoots over 50% from the field, plays defense, and gets to the line. Bibby shot 40 % from the field, we know he doesn't play defense, but he does get to the line.

 

[VF21]

And Parker is head and shoulders IMO above Bibby on that list and should be Top 5.

And the scary thing is Parker is still on the way up. The improvement in his game between 2005-6 and 2006-7 was close to jaw-dropping and he could get better still.

Parker is in the first tier in the OP listing, BTW, which is exactly where I think he should be.

 

[Jerryaki]

KP made some very good points about how Bibby is influenced by those around him, perhaps more than some other players.

if bibby can benefit from having the better system and players (as KP mentioned, athletic swingmen and a good big man), wouldn't the same hold true for any of the point guards that we've listed ahead of him?? (possible exception of AI)

 

[kyo2002]

Always has been a second tier PG.

 

[hammystyle]

I think you have to include Terry and Hinrich. They may not be "classic" PG's, but then neither is Bibby.

Top 10
Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Jason Kidd
Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups
Deron Williams
Gilbert Arenas
Allen Iverson
Baron Davis
Kirk Hinrich

Better than average:
Jason Terry
TJ Ford
Mike Bibby
Andre Miller

Average:
Mo Williams
Devin Harris
Raymond Felton
Stephon Marbury

Its arguable where exactly Bibby ranks, but I think that he is clearly behind the elite Top 10 guys. I don't think you can make a solid arguement that he is the equal or better than any of those guys.

So at this point, he's a solid, above-average PG....but I also think he's likely to decline, and I think some younge guys are likely to improve. Meaning that within the next year he could be right in the middle of the pack.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm calling Bibby about 10th at this point. Certainly not above any fo the guys over him, but could slip a notch or two below him.

1-5
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Gilbert Arenas
Allen Iverson
Baron Davis

6-10
Chauncey Billups
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Tony Parker
Mike Bibby

11-15
Kirk Heinrich (uh...remember him?)
Andre Miller
Mo Williams
Raymond Felton
TJ Ford


etc.

 

[LA King Fan II]

I like Brick putting him about 10.

In terms of where he once was....I can't name the year right now, but one year he absolutely destroyed Nash and was one of the best in the game (he had some great teammates which helped). In fact he and Nash flip-flopped for a time when Nash was a Mav.

In our heartbreaking loss to the Lakers in 2002, don't know if there was a better player in the league for 6 games. I think it's a shame he got tweeked last year during pre-season because he was coming out working on defense, just tightened his body down, and was shooting just fine.

Don't think he'll find his way back in to the Top 10 - but he can play IMO.

 

[AriesMar27]

outside of being faster than bibby what makes parker better? he didnt guard nash in the playoffs... bowen did...

bibby in a good year owned nash... parker at his best didnt touch nash...

is parker a better shooter? nope... passer? nope... defender? couldnt tell who does he guard? deron williams and fisher had their way with the spurs... what did parker do?

bibby isnt the best but since when was parker that great? nash, kidd, gilbert, baron and billups are definitely better... but the rest? none of them have done anything that makes them better than bibby... outside of parker winning finals mvp.

 

[JoMama]

Bibby is an 11-15 ranked PG. He does only one thing well - shoot - and he didn't do that last season.
He's an average passer, poor ball handler, average rebounder and poor defender.
He has a tendancy to turn the ball over because he has poor timing and can't seem to pass before the double-team swallows him up. He lost the ball many, many times last year trying to drive in the paint. And one other thing - he ain't the smartest man alive.
Very average NBA PG who moves to B- when his shot is on.

 

[Entity]

I am not going to judge now. It isn't fair to Bibby to judge him after his worst season in recent history. He was battling an wrist injury pretty much all season. If I remember correctly he was tearing it up before the season started on offense and defense in the preseason. Now I would think a wrist injury would alter passing and driving if using that hand to dribble (just a guess) so that also is an unfair judgement. The only way to be fair is to go back to the offseason after WCF vs. the Lakers and see the ranking of Bibby then and average it out with the ranking of Bibby now.

 

[kupman]

I'm calling Bibby about 10th at this point. Certainly not above any fo the guys over him, but could slip a notch or two below him.

1-5
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Gilbert Arenas
Allen Iverson
Baron Davis

6-10
Chauncey Billups
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Tony Parker
Mike Bibby

11-15
Kirk Heinrich (uh...remember him?)
Andre Miller
Mo Williams
Raymond Felton
TJ Ford


etc.

I like the list Brick (holy crap, I'm agreeing with Brick), with the exception of Baron Davis being in the top 5. The dude is hurt about as much as he is healthy. When healthy, he could be the MVP..but the injuries really drop his value IMHO.

Would anyone be able to post what these guys will be making this next season?

 

[uolj]

Would anyone be able to post what these guys will be making this next season?

According to:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/basketball/nba/team.salaries/index.html

Steve Nash		$11,375,000
Jason Kidd		$19,728,000
Gilbert Arenas		$11,950,400
Allen Iverson		$19,012,500
Baron Davis		$16,440,000
Chauncey Billups	 $6,819,000 (But he just resigned for about $10M)
Chris Paul		 $3,615,960
Deron Williams		 $4,010,640
Tony Parker		$10,500,000
Mike Bibby		$13,500,000
Kirk Hinrich		$11,000,000
Andre Miller		 $9,366,666
Raymond Felton		 $3,274,440
TJ Ford			 $8,000,000

 

[dude12]

The reason I would rank Billups, Parker, D Williams and Chris Paul ahead of Iverson, Arenas and Baron Davis for that matter is that I think my top 5 guys make others around them beter. I can't say that about Iverson. Arenas and Iverson are scoring machines, no doubt about that and that goes a long ways. I like Billups for the all-around game. Parker only wins championships. I know he has Duncan but he does shoot over 50%. I do believe Nash is the only other PG that can say that. That number can't be discounted. He doesn't need to shoot the 3 as he gets to the lane and scores at will. D Williams and Chris Paul are more coveted as they are as good as those guys and their careers have just started.

 

[supamari0]

I like the list Brick (holy crap, I'm agreeing with Brick), with the exception of Baron Davis being in the top 5. The dude is hurt about as much as he is healthy. When healthy, he could be the MVP..but the injuries really drop his value IMHO.

Would anyone be able to post what these guys will be making this next season?

Yeah I dont like the Baron Davis pick either. Excluding the run at the end of last season, he isn't even statistically close to the top 5. Hell, Steve Francis, when he was in Houston, was equal to if not better than him in almost every category except turnovers (where Steve was probably one of the worst, next to say AI)

If Baron puts up the numbers like he did at the end of last season and the playoffs, then maybe he deserves placement among the best. But if he reverts to the Baron Davis of old (being injured, taking bad jumpshots, and just not trying as hard as he could), he's a top 15 pick at best.