Poor Team Construction?

[Section 101]

I don't think we have a lack of people that can handle the ball. I think your real issue is what those people do with the ball. Evans can certainly handle the ball. So can Thornton, Salmons, Fredette, Thomas, even Cousins is a good ballhandler for his size and position. However, Being a good ballhandler doesn't make you a good decision maker. Strangely enough, two rookies show me the most potential as good decision makers, but they both lack the NBA experience right now to be difference makers. Thats Fredette and Thomas, who both have shown PG potential, as pass first PG's.

Ask yourself this. In last nights game, how many plays were run for a post player, and how many plays were run for perimiter players? And I'm not counting JJ Hickson taking a 15 foot jumper as a post play. Most of our scoring in the post came from putbacks off missed shots, or by a guard driving the lane. I remember one specific play when Cousins first came into the game where he did a spin move in the post. I don't remember one more post play by Cousins in the entire game. Is this an accident, or by design?

Clearly by design when the bigs are playing the high post to open up the basket according the Jerry.

 

[Emma]

I have to say that I wanted two solid veterans added to the team. Tested, playoff experienced veterans worthy of an 8 million dollar paycheck. To dudes to anchor the 2 and 3. Two scrappers would have fit the bill. Can you imagine the difficulty teams would have if the 2, 3, and 4 positions were filled with solid players that enjoyed playing defense?

 

[Spike]

Clearly by design when the bigs are playing the high post to open up the basket according the Jerry.

But that's a little disingenuous, as you can start out in the high post to initiate the offense, then when the ball is worked outward, reset at the block. Starting out high doesn't mean you're going to stay there, unless by design, the coach doesn't want you anywhere near the basket, which is pretty silly (but the evidence seems to support this, sadly.) Of note however, is the fact that Webber was pretty deadly at the elbows, which allowed for drives to the hoop since the shot had to be respected. Even with drives, it should allow for dump-offs to our posts, but I don't think the players are spacing correctly - I'll have to pay attention tonight.

Unfortunately, I think DMC is being set up either too high, which eliminates pick&roll/pop because it causes too much dribbling, or out too wide on the low block at the start which makes it hard to initiate any offense (and also allows for easy steals by the defender who just has to front because you can't pass "over" since it would send DMC out of bounds.)

 

[Kingster]

I don't think we have a lack of people that can handle the ball. I think your real issue is what those people do with the ball. Evans can certainly handle the ball. So can Thornton, Salmons, Fredette, Thomas, even Cousins is a good ballhandler for his size and position. However, Being a good ballhandler doesn't make you a good decision maker. Strangely enough, two rookies show me the most potential as good decision makers, but they both lack the NBA experience right now to be difference makers. Thats Fredette and Thomas, who both have shown PG potential, as pass first PG's.

Ask yourself this. In last nights game, how many plays were run for a post player, and how many plays were run for perimiter players? And I'm not counting JJ Hickson taking a 15 foot jumper as a post play. Most of our scoring in the post came from putbacks off missed shots, or by a guard driving the lane. I remember one specific play when Cousins first came into the game where he did a spin move in the post. I don't remember one more post play by Cousins in the entire game. Is this an accident, or by design?

I define ballhandler as both passing and dribbling. And of course passing involves decision-making (as does dribbling, like when to dribble and when not to dribble). So dribbling, passing, decision making.

I'd have to go back and look at the film regarding perimeter vs. post. The only play that sticks out in my mind for all of the games involving post play was a nice drop off pass by Jimmer to Cousins on a pick and roll. I can't remember any player on our team who can consistently feed the post unless I go back to Bibby. Seriously.

Regarding lack of post play, I really think this is at the rub of Cousins' dissatisfaction. He probably doesn't like the fact that he's not getting the ball in positions where he can easily do something with the ball. Personally, I think there is a schism between Cousins and Tyreke's game. Tyreke plays better with Cousins outside; he needs the space because his game is primarily driving to the hole and he can't throw a pea in the ocean on some nights. Cousins would do well to have an outside shooting Tyreke, who could open up the inside for him and throw him nice passes while Cousins is on the move to the basket (like a pick and roll for example). Alas, Tyreke can't shoot outside and doesn't show the propensity to throw Cousins nice passes where he can easily do something with it. Oil and Water. If you want to have Jimmer throw Cousins passes, then you still have to deal with Jimmer's greeness, and then if he can get the ball to Cousins you have to deal with his turnover-proness, and then you have Tyreke at best as the 3rd guy who might touch the ball.

So if your two best player are Oil and Water, what kind of system do you come up with to satisfy them both and hopefully get wins? If you know the answer, please tell me, because at best I see them as just coexisting, not complementing each other's games. If in Year 3 Tyreke could show some consistency in outside shooting and some propensity for feeding the post, Wesphal's life (and the other assistants like Smart who design the offense) would be so much easier. The parts would mesh; the glue would adhere. Now we've got an assemblage of parts that don't fit very well, and what happens when parts don't fit well together? Friction. Lots of friction.

 

[Kingsguy881]

I define ballhandler as both passing and dribbling. And of course passing involves decision-making (as does dribbling, like when to dribble and when not to dribble). So dribbling, passing, decision making.

I'd have to go back and look at the film regarding perimeter vs. post. The only play that sticks out in my mind for all of the games involving post play was a nice drop off pass by Jimmer to Cousins on a pick and roll. I can't remember any player on our team who can consistently feed the post unless I go back to Bibby. Seriously.

Regarding lack of post play, I really think this is at the rub of Cousins' dissatisfaction. He probably doesn't like the fact that he's not getting the ball in positions where he can easily do something with the ball. Personally, I think there is a schism between Cousins and Tyreke's game. Tyreke plays better with Cousins outside; he needs the space because his game is primarily driving to the hole and he can't throw a pea in the ocean on some nights. Cousins would do well to have an outside shooting Tyreke, who could open up the inside for him and throw him nice passes while Cousins is on the move to the basket (like a pick and roll for example). Alas, Tyreke can't shoot outside and doesn't show the propensity to throw Cousins nice passes where he can easily do something with it. Oil and Water. If you want to have Jimmer throw Cousins passes, then you still have to deal with Jimmer's greeness, and then if he can get the ball to Cousins you have to deal with his turnover-proness, and then you have Tyreke at best as the 3rd guy who might touch the ball.

So if your two best player are Oil and Water, what kind of system do you come up with to satisfy them both and hopefully get wins? If you know the answer, please tell me, because at best I see them as just coexisting, not complementing each other's games. If in Year 3 Tyreke could show some consistency in outside shooting and some propensity for feeding the post, Wesphal's life (and the other assistants like Smart who design the offense) would be so much easier. The parts would mesh; the glue would adhere. Now we've got an assemblage of parts that don't fit very well, and what happens when parts don't fit well together? Friction. Lots of friction.

I don't care how you WANT to define ballhandler, EVERYBODY ELSE definse it as someone who can handle the ball, with passing being passing, and ball handling being handles. So for the sake of this board and every other basketball guru/know-it-all/fan/afficionado, I would suggest conforming to help yourself be better understood. Otherwise, you will be misunderstood by everyone who reads your posts and then have to explain each time that your definition of something does not conform to everyone elses. I could call bread 'waffles' but its still bread to everyone else.

 

[rainmaker]

I don't care how you WANT to define ballhandler, EVERYBODY ELSE definse it as someone who can handle the ball, with passing being passing, and ball handling being handles. So for the sake of this board and every other basketball guru/know-it-all/fan/afficionado, I would suggest conforming to help yourself be better understood. Otherwise, you will be misunderstood by everyone who reads your posts and then have to explain each time that your definition of something does not conform to everyone elses. I could call bread 'waffles' but its still bread to everyone else.

Yup. On the playground, when someone says damn that kid has handles, they're always referring to dribbling. Always. Any other definition comes from not being around the game.

When someone puts a great open court move on someone else, or crosses them over, you'd say damn, he has handles. If he was making great passes, you'd say damn, that kid can pass, or wow, he had great vision, or even that kid is dropping dimes left and right.

Stockton is considered the greatest passer of all time, not the greatest dribbler. JWill had some of the best handles ever seen, yet was never an above average creator in the league. No one describes Rubio as having exceptional handles, he's revered for his passing and vision.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Yup. On the playground, when someone says damn that kid has handles, they're always referring to dribbling. Always. Any other definition comes from not being around the game.

When someone puts a great open court move on someone else, or crosses them over, you'd say damn, he has handles. If he was making great passes, you'd say damn, that kid can pass, or wow, he had great vision, or even that kid is dropping dimes left and right.

Stockton is considered the greatest passer of all time, not the greatest dribbler. JWill had some of the best handles ever seen, yet was never an above average creator in the league. No one describes Rubio as having exceptional handles, he's revered for his passing and vision.

Spot on. Gospel, son!

 

[kennadog]

I still dont see any point wharsoever in going with hayes over Dally, bringing back salmons again, signing Outlaw. The only good signing of the offseason is Hickson.

I don't think we ever had a chance at bringing Dalembert back. So there was not a choice between Hayes or Dalembert. At best it was Hayes or......? (Preferably not someone way overpaid.)

 

[Fireplug]

I'm unsure how effective Hayes can really be trying to run the offense like Vlade and Webber did. I know the team is trying to do that, but as someone else mentioned, Vlade and Chris could make that outside shot so it opened up the interior for the slashers. Hayes is zero threat from outside so the defense will just collapse in the key closing down the slashers as we have seen. DMC doesn't seem to want that role either, though his outside shot must be respected. We really don't seem to have the personnel to run what Jerry has said the offense is supposed to be doing. Hmmm.

A couple other questions about our offense...

Why can Cousins not consistently make a layup after an offensive rebound and shouldn't he be dunking anyhow?

Why do our big men consistently go to set a pick and then slip the pick and try to head to the basket? It is called a pick and roll, dammit, not a slip and roll and the guy with the ball can't get open to pass it to you big men if you don't actually pick off his guy! JT in particular constantly does this and it drives me crazy.

Why have we not made it a staple of our offense to set a hard *** pick or even a double pick if necessary to get Jimmer a wide open 3 to step into instead of making him create his own damn shot all the time?

Why do our guards so often not use the pick being set for them (when one finally is set) and try some hinky double back crossover that they think they will fool the defense with but only allows the defense to recover from the pick? (Tyreke I am looking at you!)

 

[swisshh]

fireplug:

because all of that would require someone teaching them those techniques

 

[bajaden]

I define ballhandler as both passing and dribbling. And of course passing involves decision-making (as does dribbling, like when to dribble and when not to dribble). So dribbling, passing, decision making.

I'd have to go back and look at the film regarding perimeter vs. post. The only play that sticks out in my mind for all of the games involving post play was a nice drop off pass by Jimmer to Cousins on a pick and roll. I can't remember any player on our team who can consistently feed the post unless I go back to Bibby. Seriously.

Regarding lack of post play, I really think this is at the rub of Cousins' dissatisfaction. He probably doesn't like the fact that he's not getting the ball in positions where he can easily do something with the ball. Personally, I think there is a schism between Cousins and Tyreke's game. Tyreke plays better with Cousins outside; he needs the space because his game is primarily driving to the hole and he can't throw a pea in the ocean on some nights. Cousins would do well to have an outside shooting Tyreke, who could open up the inside for him and throw him nice passes while Cousins is on the move to the basket (like a pick and roll for example). Alas, Tyreke can't shoot outside and doesn't show the propensity to throw Cousins nice passes where he can easily do something with it. Oil and Water. If you want to have Jimmer throw Cousins passes, then you still have to deal with Jimmer's greeness, and then if he can get the ball to Cousins you have to deal with his turnover-proness, and then you have Tyreke at best as the 3rd guy who might touch the ball.

So if your two best player are Oil and Water, what kind of system do you come up with to satisfy them both and hopefully get wins? If you know the answer, please tell me, because at best I see them as just coexisting, not complementing each other's games. If in Year 3 Tyreke could show some consistency in outside shooting and some propensity for feeding the post, Wesphal's life (and the other assistants like Smart who design the offense) would be so much easier. The parts would mesh; the glue would adhere. Now we've got an assemblage of parts that don't fit very well, and what happens when parts don't fit well together? Friction. Lots of friction.

Good questions! I can only assume, and to be honest, it never really entered my mind before, but I'm starting the believe that Westphal perfers a guard oriented offense. It appears that his idea of what a big man is susposed to do, is set screens, rebound, defend, and pass the ball to cutting guards. If you shoot the ball, then your selfish. However, if Evans, Thornton, or Salmons continually shoot the ball, whether they make their shots or not, thats OK.

Now I grant you that Cousins hasn't been making his shots, but in general, the shots he missing are actually good shots under the basket. But I guess if Cousins misses his shots, he's playing badly. To my mind, a player is playing badly when they constantly force up bad shots. Now Cousins has certainly done some of that, but he's far from being the only culprit. Maybe Westphal just can't see things from a big man's point of view. He certainly had Hawes confused when he was here.

As far as your definition of what handles are. Well I guess you can makeup any personal definition you want, but its generally accepted around the basketball world, that handles means ones ability to dribble the ball. There have been a lot of players that could dribble the ball, but wern't particularly good passers. Dribbling is dribbling, and passing is passing. Two seperate skill sets, but when combined in one player, along with scoring ability and athleticism, you usually have someone like Derrick Rose. Ballhandling is the easier of the two to improve. Passing can be improved, but great passers tend to instinctive, and thats something that can be refined to some extent, but not really taught well enough to make a 6'1" player that can't pass the ball well, into a PG. In a sense, its sort of like running fast. You either can or you can't run fast. And if you can't, you never will. One of those god given abilities.

 

[Larry David]

The team's four best guards and wings are gunners that look mostly for their own shot.

Which is helping drive a center with behavioral problems crazy.

And they are being coached by the lowest paid coach in the league. He's a lame duck, and they already made him add the guy that can serve the interim coach this summer. He's either going to be fired or allowed to walk in a few months, and he'll never get another NBA job. He sees the writing on the wall, which is causing a confrontational coach to run off the rails.

Is there really a debate that this team is poorly constructed?

The owners are broke (by NBA standards) and in limbo.

And its hard to evaluate the GM based upon both the limits the owners and his recent moves.

At this point, it's fair to say the team is a mess from top to bottom.

 

[UK_King]

It's the coaches job to find a line up that works, to find an offense that fits the personel provided.

he hasn't done it and i don't think he can, or will.

 

[bluntsnbball]

This team needs a point guard so badly in my opinion! I think the Tyreke at point has officially been a failed experiment. I agree with people who say that the starters are off balance. We have 2 shooting guards and a ridiculously selfish sf starting. One if not 2 of those guys needs to come off the bench and help the second unit. Essentially all our offense is starting aside from jimmer who still has a ways to go in his development. But regardless, id rather see jimmer at point, Tyreke at 2, garcia (maybe?) at the 3, Demarcus, and Hayes start. Im still not sold that jimmer is a point guard either, but id like to see what he can do with those guys. I just dont think tyreke is running the offense (whatever that offense may be) at all. He got assists in his rookie season, but that doesnt make him a point guard. We need someone in there setting some guys up, not a bunch of 1 on 1 players.

 

[rainmaker]

This team needs a point guard so badly in my opinion! I think the Tyreke at point has officially been a failed experiment. I agree with people who say that the starters are off balance. We have 2 shooting guards and a ridiculously selfish sf starting. One if not 2 of those guys needs to come off the bench and help the second unit. Essentially all our offense is starting aside from jimmer who still has a ways to go in his development. But regardless, id rather see jimmer at point, Tyreke at 2, garcia (maybe?) at the 3, Demarcus, and Hayes start. Im still not sold that jimmer is a point guard either, but id like to see what he can do with those guys. I just dont think tyreke is running the offense (whatever that offense may be) at all. He got assists in his rookie season, but that doesnt make him a point guard. We need someone in there setting some guys up, not a bunch of 1 on 1 players.

What good is having a what you might call a pure pg, if we still have a coach who doesn't know how to put his guys in a position to play to their strengths? What good is a pg if we still don't get Cousins on the block with room to operate? What good is a pg if when Cousins gets doubled, there aren't any cutters? What good is a pg if we don't run our shooters, Jimmer and Thornton off screens to begin with? What good is a pg, is our bigs can't effectively do their part in running a pick & roll?

A pg doesn't solve the problems we're having. If Westy can't build a halfway competent offense around guys he's had for 1-2+ seasons, why do you think he'd all the sudden be able to build an effective offense around a pg on, or not currently on the roster?

 

[Bricklayer]

This team needs a point guard so badly in my opinion! I think the Tyreke at point has officially been a failed experiment. I agree with people who say that the starters are off balance. We have 2 shooting guards and a ridiculously selfish sf starting. One if not 2 of those guys needs to come off the bench and help the second unit. Essentially all our offense is starting aside from jimmer who still has a ways to go in his development. But regardless, id rather see jimmer at point, Tyreke at 2, garcia (maybe?) at the 3, Demarcus, and Hayes start. Im still not sold that jimmer is a point guard either, but id like to see what he can do with those guys. I just dont think tyreke is running the offense (whatever that offense may be) at all. He got assists in his rookie season, but that doesnt make him a point guard. We need someone in there setting some guys up, not a bunch of 1 on 1 players.

Whatever our other issues we just need a workable system. Hell, we just need last year's system. Derek Fisher last set somebody up in high school, yet he's got a fist full of rings on his finger as a "point guard". The difference? He has spent most of his career in a strong system with plays and responsbilities. What we are doing is ridiculous. And realy blaming the palyers is farily farfetched too given that none of our yougn guns has ever had another coach than Westphal whiel they were in Sacramento. How do we know how they'd play if they actually had a real coach?

 

[swisshh]

Well, before Phil Jackson came to LA, Derek Fisher was able to run a good pick n roll. He's not the purest point, but he could hit that basic standard. Nobody on the Kings roster right now can even run a decent PnR.

 

[mr. moustache]

The team's four best guards and wings are gunners that look mostly for their own shot.

Which is helping drive a center with behavioral problems crazy.

And they are being coached by the lowest paid coach in the league. He's a lame duck, and they already made him add the guy that can serve the interim coach this summer. He's either going to be fired or allowed to walk in a few months, and he'll never get another NBA job. He sees the writing on the wall, which is causing a confrontational coach to run off the rails.

Is there really a debate that this team is poorly constructed?

The owners are broke (by NBA standards) and in limbo.

And its hard to evaluate the GM based upon both the limits the owners and his recent moves.

At this point, it's fair to say the team is a mess from top to bottom.

Weird. A reasonable post on the current state of the Kings.

 

[Kingster]

Good questions! I can only assume, and to be honest, it never really entered my mind before, but I'm starting the believe that Westphal perfers a guard oriented offense. It appears that his idea of what a big man is susposed to do, is set screens, rebound, defend, and pass the ball to cutting guards. If you shoot the ball, then your selfish. However, if Evans, Thornton, or Salmons continually shoot the ball, whether they make their shots or not, thats OK.

Now I grant you that Cousins hasn't been making his shots, but in general, the shots he missing are actually good shots under the basket. But I guess if Cousins misses his shots, he's playing badly. To my mind, a player is playing badly when they constantly force up bad shots. Now Cousins has certainly done some of that, but he's far from being the only culprit. Maybe Westphal just can't see things from a big man's point of view. He certainly had Hawes confused when he was here.

As far as your definition of what handles are. Well I guess you can makeup any personal definition you want, but its generally accepted around the basketball world, that handles means ones ability to dribble the ball. There have been a lot of players that could dribble the ball, but wern't particularly good passers. Dribbling is dribbling, and passing is passing. Two seperate skill sets, but when combined in one player, along with scoring ability and athleticism, you usually have someone like Derrick Rose. Ballhandling is the easier of the two to improve. Passing can be improved, but great passers tend to instinctive, and thats something that can be refined to some extent, but not really taught well enough to make a 6'1" player that can't pass the ball well, into a PG. In a sense, its sort of like running fast. You either can or you can't run fast. And if you can't, you never will. One of those god given abilities.

Based on everything I've heard from Westphal, it's not predetermined that he likes a guard oriented offense. If it is a guard oriented offense, then it's because he thinks that he's going to produce more offense with a guard oriented offense on this team because of it's particular players than a non-guard oriented offense. He probably figures there are more benefits (and fewer costs) to the guard oriented offense for this team than for a big man oriented offense. And that doesn't mean that it's just because he's not happy with Cousins' production. It may also mean that he's not satisfied the Kings guards have the werewithal to get the ball to Cousins in places he can score on a regular basis. It may also mean that he doesn't want to sacrifice Tyreke's and Thornton's game for Cousins. At least not right now.

Handles is often used as a synonym for dribbling. But ballhandling as a synonym for dribbling? Maybe, for some. But to me it makes more sense to use the term ballhandling for the whole shebang - dribbling, passing, decision-making. Good dribbling divorced from decision making and passing doesn't get you anything except for a place on the Harlem Globetrotters. We need good ballhandlers on the Kings as I have defined it - dribbling, passing, decision making. I don't want just a dribbler as a point guard, who can't pass or make decisions. I don't want just a decision maker who can't dribble or pass. I don't want a guy who can pass without the dribbling and decision making. I want some guy that can do all three. That, for me, is a good ballhandler. There, now that Kingster has defined "ballhandler", please add it to Webster's Dictionary of Basketball.

 

[mac]

Good questions! I can only assume, and to be honest, it never really entered my mind before, but I'm starting the believe that Westphal perfers a guard oriented offense. It appears that his idea of what a big man is susposed to do, is set screens, rebound, defend, and pass the ball to cutting guards. If you shoot the ball, then your selfish. However, if Evans, Thornton, or Salmons continually shoot the ball, whether they make their shots or not, thats OK.

Now I grant you that Cousins hasn't been making his shots, but in general, the shots he missing are actually good shots under the basket. But I guess if Cousins misses his shots, he's playing badly. To my mind, a player is playing badly when they constantly force up bad shots. Now Cousins has certainly done some of that, but he's far from being the only culprit. Maybe Westphal just can't see things from a big man's point of view. He certainly had Hawes confused when he was here.

As far as your definition of what handles are. Well I guess you can makeup any personal definition you want, but its generally accepted around the basketball world, that handles means ones ability to dribble the ball. There have been a lot of players that could dribble the ball, but wern't particularly good passers. Dribbling is dribbling, and passing is passing. Two seperate skill sets, but when combined in one player, along with scoring ability and athleticism, you usually have someone like Derrick Rose. Ballhandling is the easier of the two to improve. Passing can be improved, but great passers tend to instinctive, and thats something that can be refined to some extent, but not really taught well enough to make a 6'1" player that can't pass the ball well, into a PG. In a sense, its sort of like running fast. You either can or you can't run fast. And if you can't, you never will. One of those god given abilities.

It's funny how our "free and easy" offensive scheme works. It's all about reacting to what the defense gives right? Translation (apparently): post player gets doubled down low = react by standing around outside and forcing post player to heave up a tough shot with the shot clock expiring. Coach pulls post player because he's "selfish" and guard gets to continue chucking and padding his stats. Great success!

 

[Spike]

It's fine if the system is "read and react", but the players have to be taught HOW to read and react at the NBA level. This is a very young team going up against NBA professionals. It isn't like college ball where you can pretty much out-talent the competition on a regular basis. Coaching is still going to be important. The more teachers on the staff, the better. Unfortunately, I don't get the sense that much teaching is going on, as players seem to defer to an iso situation when the rubber hits the road, and complementary players don't know what they should do.

It's like the triangle, but without any structure. Oddly enough, I think the triangle would be a good fit given the ball-handling ability of many of our players.

 

[ESP47]

Westphal sucks but our players just aren't as talented as we think they are.

No one can handle the ball. Tyreke can drive but he gets called for travels and makes stupid turnovers off jump passes. Jimmer picks up his dribble at random times with seconds left on the shot clock. Thorton gets the ball stolen from him too often. Thomas is wild and you could never count on that type of play in big situations. Salmons has obviously lost a step or two. Cousins constantly gets called for traveling and tries to thread the needle and gets picked off a lot. Hayes is slightly better but he makes his fair share of boneheaded passes. Thompson and Hickson are just dumb as rocks when it comes to everything.

There's just no solid ball handler that can make plays. How often have we seen the ball handler get double teamed and then just try and dribble through the double team or kick it out to someone else standing behind the 3 point line? As soon as you get double teamed, that means someone probably quit covering your PF or C. As a ball handler, you should know that you have an open man on the court and instead of trying to dribble between the double team, you should pass between it and hit your big man for a high percentage shot.

That brings me to another annoyace. High percentage shots. We don't have a big on the team who can finish at the basket. Hayes, Demarcus, Thompson and Hickson are all terrible at hitting 1 foot layups and put backs. That's one of the few things that isn't the coaches fault. Not sure what else we can do about that.

 

[LWP777]

Westphal sucks but our players just aren't as talented as we think they are.

No one can handle the ball. Tyreke can drive but he gets called for travels and makes stupid turnovers off jump passes. Jimmer picks up his dribble at random times with seconds left on the shot clock. Thorton gets the ball stolen from him too often. Thomas is wild and you could never count on that type of play in big situations. Salmons has obviously lost a step or two. Cousins constantly gets called for traveling and tries to thread the needle and gets picked off a lot. Hayes is slightly better but he makes his fair share of boneheaded passes. Thompson and Hickson are just dumb as rocks when it comes to everything.

There's just no solid ball handler that can make plays. How often have we seen the ball handler get double teamed and then just try and dribble through the double team or kick it out to someone else standing behind the 3 point line? As soon as you get double teamed, that means someone probably quit covering your PF or C. As a ball handler, you should know that you have an open man on the court and instead of trying to dribble between the double team, you should pass between it and hit your big man for a high percentage shot.

That brings me to another annoyace. High percentage shots. We don't have a big on the team who can finish at the basket. Hayes, Demarcus, Thompson and Hickson are all terrible at hitting 1 foot layups and put backs. That's one of the few things that isn't the coaches fault. Not sure what else we can do about that.

THIS! Good post. I've been saying this for the past month but everybody keeps defending the players saying how talented and deep we are. I do think that Westphal needs to go, but I think a lot of people on these forums will be in for a rude awakening when the team continues to suck after Westphal is gone. I really hope they can prove me wrong though!

 

[Kingsguy881]

THIS! Good post. I've been saying this for the past month but everybody keeps defending the players saying how talented and deep we are. I do think that Westphal needs to go, but I think a lot of people on these forums will be in for a rude awakening when the team continues to suck after Westphal is gone. I really hope they can prove me wrong though!

A defensive minded coach that will stop the revolving door of layups and easy baskets and teach a fundamental such as blocking out and defending the defensive glss to limit the other teams opportunities will show you exactly how talented they are. Once they actually put forth effort, and are taught some discipline, they will prove you wrong. There is a TON of talent on that squad, the problem is the cluster**** of a coach and the fact he has lost them by not giving them direction and not being a stand up man for them.

 

[LWP777]

A defensive minded coach that will stop the revolving door of layups and easy baskets and teach a fundamental such as blocking out and defending the defensive glss to limit the other teams opportunities will show you exactly how talented they are. Once they actually put forth effort, and are taught some discipline, they will prove you wrong. There is a TON of talent on that squad, the problem is the cluster**** of a coach and the fact he has lost them by not giving them direction and not being a stand up man for them.

So you think a coach is going to teach NBA players how to block out and defend? I hate to break it to you but these guys have been playing basketball their entire lives and have probably had pretty good coaching along the way. IMO, at this point, they either have it or they don't. Dennis Rodman used to talk about how rebounding was more about heart and desire than it was about skill. You can teach guys all you want but if they don't have the fire to succeed then it's not going to matter. They probably will play harder under Keith Smart or whomever but I doubt it's going to make a mountain of difference that will translate into a lot more wins. They might just be more enjoyable to watch (kind of like 2 years ago).

Also, I just don't know how you can say we have TONS of talent on this team! DMC is the most talented player, but, unfortunately, he's proven over and over again he's a head case. We have other guys like Reke and Greene who have lots of talent but it's pretty much gone to waste so far. Then we have the career role players like Thompson, Garcia, Hickson, Hayes, Salmons, etc. A couple of those guys have terrible basketball IQ's. I dunno, maybe I'm just depressed at the season so far and I'm being too extreme but I just don't have high hopes for this group.

 

[Kingster]

Westphal sucks but our players just aren't as talented as we think they are.

No one can handle the ball. Tyreke can drive but he gets called for travels and makes stupid turnovers off jump passes. Jimmer picks up his dribble at random times with seconds left on the shot clock. Thorton gets the ball stolen from him too often. Thomas is wild and you could never count on that type of play in big situations. Salmons has obviously lost a step or two. Cousins constantly gets called for traveling and tries to thread the needle and gets picked off a lot. Hayes is slightly better but he makes his fair share of boneheaded passes. Thompson and Hickson are just dumb as rocks when it comes to everything.

There's just no solid ball handler that can make plays. How often have we seen the ball handler get double teamed and then just try and dribble through the double team or kick it out to someone else standing behind the 3 point line? As soon as you get double teamed, that means someone probably quit covering your PF or C. As a ball handler, you should know that you have an open man on the court and instead of trying to dribble between the double team, you should pass between it and hit your big man for a high percentage shot.

That brings me to another annoyace. High percentage shots. We don't have a big on the team who can finish at the basket. Hayes, Demarcus, Thompson and Hickson are all terrible at hitting 1 foot layups and put backs. That's one of the few things that isn't the coaches fault. Not sure what else we can do about that.

Good analysis of the ballhandling troubles.

So let's say that Westphal is partially the cause? Who hired him? Let's assume that the player's capabilities are in part the cause? Who brought them here?

Answer: Petrie and the Maloofs

So what is their record in hiring coaches over the last several years?

Fired Adelman.
Hired: Musselman, Theus, Natt, Westphal

Based on that record, what should we expect in the future? In a new coach? In new players?

Let's take this analysis to it's deepest possible conclusion.

 

[Section 101]

Good analysis of the ballhandling troubles.

So let's say that Westphal is partially the cause? Who hired him? Let's assume that the player's capabilities are in part the cause? Who brought them here?

Answer: Petrie and the Maloofs

So what is their record in hiring coaches over the last several years?

Fired Adelman.
Hired: Musselman, Theus, Natt, Westphal

Based on that record, what should we expect in the future? In a new coach? In new players?

Let's take this analysis to it's deepest possible conclusion.

Westfail was hired because he was the cheapest and agreed to the contract before they offered him the job. The Maloofs weren't trying to put a winner on the court. They were focused on slashing cost and the summer of 2011 when they thought they would be in Anaheim.

 

[Section 101]

So you think a coach is going to teach NBA players how to block out and defend? I hate to break it to you but these guys have been playing basketball their entire lives and have probably had pretty good coaching along the way. IMO, at this point, they either have it or they don't. Dennis Rodman used to talk about how rebounding was more about heart and desire than it was about skill. You can teach guys all you want but if they don't have the fire to succeed then it's not going to matter. They probably will play harder under Keith Smart or whomever but I doubt it's going to make a mountain of difference that will translate into a lot more wins. They might just be more enjoyable to watch (kind of like 2 years ago).

Also, I just don't know how you can say we have TONS of talent on this team! DMC is the most talented player, but, unfortunately, he's proven over and over again he's a head case. We have other guys like Reke and Greene who have lots of talent but it's pretty much gone to waste so far. Then we have the career role players like Thompson, Garcia, Hickson, Hayes, Salmons, etc. A couple of those guys have terrible basketball IQ's. I dunno, maybe I'm just depressed at the season so far and I'm being too extreme but I just don't have high hopes for this group.

Ya, relying on High School and AAU coaches to teach them everything they should know about playing in the NBA is a great idea. I assume you went to high school. Did you learn everything you needed to know to do your job today? You know the fundamentals right?

 

[Kingster]

Westfail was hired because he was the cheapest and agreed to the contract before they offered him the job. The Maloofs weren't trying to put a winner on the court. They were focused on slashing cost and the summer of 2011 when they thought they would be in Anaheim.

So what has changed? Petrie is the still the GM. The Maloofs are still the owners. The Maloofs are still cash-strapped as far as we can tell. Based on the record of coaches and players brought in by Petrie and the Maloofs, what should we expect going forward?

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I think the simple version of all of this is that NO, this team is not perfectly constructed. The pieces don't all fit perfectly.

However, there is no excuse for how we are playing right now. Even with pieces that don't fit together as well as they could, we should be better than we are, and we certainly shouldn't be getting blown out.