Poor Team Construction?

#1
Much has been said about the make up of our team defensively - that we lack a shotblocker etc. But how about on the offensive end? Based on the few games I've seen this season, I think the FO made the wrong decision choosing to pursue "guys that can handle and create their own shots".

Firstly, the idea of players that can create their own shots should already give you a hint of a 1 on 1 style of play. You don't expect Kobe Bryant or Dwyane Wade to be spot shooters on your team.

Secondly, I feel that our team doesn't have enough guys who can finish strong around the rim. Our 3 main slashers - Tyreke, Marcus and Salmons all aren't the real athletic sort, in the Gerald Wallace/ Derrick Rose sense. I don't think we'll ever see an alleyoop to Salmons for a dunk. The same can be said for a number of our bigs. Chuck Hayes has not been able to finish around the rim, and when he rolls to the basket he usually sort of flips it up. Here's where having Dalembert instead would easily give us 8-10 points more every game. Remember the lobs from Reke to Dalembert? Heck, Carl Landry would also dunk the ball off a feed from Reke. Instead, we've seen our starting bigs struggle at finishing (Chuck and DMC). JJ Hickson has more athleticism but he doesn't have the length that say Stoudemire has.

Thirdly, I personally feel that a lot of our so-called "3 point shooters" aren't real shooters - they are scorers. I may be wrong here, but it's sort of like Kevin Durant VS Ray Allen/ Kyle Korver. Sure, all can score from outside, but they are just different players and somehow have different shooting calibers. One of our best "3 point shooters" in Marcus Thornton has shot rather horribly from 3 the last few games, and against NO had some really bad misses. He played well in other areas, but my point is that if you're going to build a team around driving in and kicking out for 3 point shots, your main shooters had better not be airballing the shots or hitting the frikin side of the backboard from the corner. Frankly I feel that having a real designated 3 point shooter on the team would be a real benefit, kind of what Bonner/ Roger Mason Jr did for the Spurs, or Brian Cook, Horry in his later days etc. I am very strongly hoping that Jimmer can provide us with some steady 3 point shooting - but so far he hasn't done that.

There's no need to have 3 - 4 guys who can create their own shot on the floor at the same time (Evans, Thornton, Salmons, Cousins). You just need 1 perimeter guy and one post player who can do that, and then surround them with guys that can finish or hit open shots at a high clip. I'm sure that's why many feel that ideally we'd start Evans and Jimmer and then bring Thornton off the bench.

This doesn't only apply to when we have Evans running the offense/ distributing. We could have Ricky Rubio (who after watching some videos of I must say I'm very impressed with), but it wouldn't do that much good if guys still miss open 3s and can't finish around the rim.
 
#2
If I recall correctly, didn't Westphal push for the Salmons trade? Not to hate on him anymore than is already going on but if he's partially responsible for team construction, then it's no surprise that things don't make much sense.
 
#3
IMO, we actually have a good roster worthy of a playoff spot in the West. The critical part would be on the system that Westphal implements and how the players executes it. So it's either Westphal's system is the worst playbook in the league or it's too complicated the players aren't buying it.
 
#4
IMO, we actually have a good roster worthy of a playoff spot in the West. The critical part would be on the system that Westphal implements and how the players executes it. So it's either Westphal's system is the worst playbook in the league or it's too complicated the players aren't buying it.

lol your kidding yourself if you think this team can make the playoffs.
 
#6
lol your kidding yourself if you think this team can make the playoffs.
Memphis would be a good example on how a good system alone would improve team standings. Randolph has talent but was way more troubled than Cuz is. Gasol was a 48th pick in the draft but was groomed well in Memphis. People started to question Conley as a lottery pick and Rudy gave in to injury. But Hollins pulled together that team with vets like Battier and Allen. And they just surprised the league.

Call me a homer but we have tons of potential in this team and we have chance to be like Memphis last season. I'm just not sure if Westphal is the right coach that can bring out the best out of this roster.
 
#7
Nah I'm more inclined this team is not constructed poorly, but instead poorly coached. They have flashed potential ie the Lakers game, and then look like a middle school team in certain games.
 
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LWP777

Guest
#8
I said it over the summer on these forums and I'll say it again. Everybody got all excited because we were a "deeper" team. The problems is, we are deeper with the types of players that you describe in your OP, and a lot of them are extremely average NBA players. One thing that has really hurt us is that neither Donte nor JT turned out to be any good. With Donte's size and overall skill, he had a chance to be a great player. Unfortunately, he's a bust. Same thing with JT. Maybe not a "bust" but forever a bench role player. It's starting to be clear to some people that Reke won't be a star. He'll be a good player, but not the star we thought he was going to be after his ROY. Thornton was a nice pickup and will likely be a solid NBA player the rest of his career, but it's doubtful he'll be a star. The one guy who has a chance to be a star is DMC, and we all know his issues.

Sorry, went off subject a bit but yes, I agree with you. The team is poorly constructed. I think PW wanted Salmons here because he's a veteran but didn't he realize that Salmons is a "me first" paycheck player? Hickson seemed like a good trade because he put up decent numbers on a horrible Cavs team last year, but I think we're starting to see what he brings to the table -- a me first attitude and zero defense. Really the only guy on the team that you say we need (spot of shooter) is Garcia and he's in PW's doghouse. I've also been somewhat disappointed with Hayes. I like the guy's attitude and I know he plays some defense but his offense is simply atrocious. I wish he'd just realize that he shouldn't ever shoot the ball unless it's a layup or a dunk. I also don't think he's as good of a passer as they advertised him to be. They run the offense a lot through him at the high post and it's not really effective.
 
#9
Memphis would be a good example on how a good system alone would improve team standings. Randolph has talent but was way more troubled than Cuz is. Gasol was a 48th pick in the draft but was groomed well in Memphis. People started to question Conley as a lottery pick and Rudy gave in to injury. But Hollins pulled together that team with vets like Battier and Allen. And they just surprised the league.

Call me a homer but we have tons of potential in this team and we have chance to be like Memphis last season. I'm just not sure if Westphal is the right coach that can bring out the best out of this roster.
Yah we have a massive amount of talent, probably one of those teams with the most talent in the league. But just because a team has talent dosent meen it can fit together like a puzzle, from what i can see F/O is trying to jam puzzle pieces into other ones that dont fit. Like anxious little kids trying to get it done.

We need more passers,Defenders, and Defense around the rim. But I totally agree when you say we have tons of talent.
 
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LWP777

Guest
#10
Yah we have a massive amount of talent, probably one of those teams with the most talent in the league. But just because a team has talent dosent meen it can fit together like a puzzle, from what i can see F/O is trying to jam puzzle pieces into other ones that dont fit. Like anxious little kids trying to get it done.

We need more passers,Defenders, and Defense around the rim. But I totally agree when you say we have tons of talent.
I just don't agree. You really think we have a "massive" amount of talent? One of the most in the league??? The only talented players we have are Reke, DMC, and Thornton right now, and none of them will likely be stars in the league (DMC might if he gets his **** together). Jimmer may end up being talented but right now he's really struggling. IT, Honeycut, and Whiteside are all 2nd round picks and are pretty much projects. Salmons, Outlaw, Hayes, Garcia, Hickson are role players in this league and are struggling on a weak Kings team. JT and Donte have proven they are pretty much busts.
 
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#11
If I recall correctly, didn't Westphal push for the Salmons trade? Not to hate on him anymore than is already going on but if he's partially responsible for team construction, then it's no surprise that things don't make much sense.
Yes. And he was the one responsible for trading Kevin Martin.
 

Larry89

Disgruntled Kings Fan
#12
Salmons is the odd man out, we would still have jimmer and beno, Garcia and Donte fit better than salmons did at the 3 with thorton/tyreke
 
#13
I just don't agree. You really think we have a "massive" amount of talent? One of the most in the league??? The only talented players we have are Reke, DMC, and Thornton right now, and none of them will likely be stars in the league (DMC might if he gets his **** together). Jimmer may end up being talented but right now he's really struggling. IT, Honeycut, and Whiteside are all 2nd round picks and are pretty much projects. Salmons, Outlaw, Hayes, Garcia, Hickson are role players in this league and are struggling on a weak Kings team. JT and Donte have proven they are pretty much busts.

Yes i do really think that. Our players are so young they havent even tapped into their potential yet and their STILL super talented.. DMC could be a superstar, Reke & Thornton could be stars, I have super high hopes for Thornton especially. i dont know why your saying they cant be stars, they have alot of time to grow, they're 3-4 years away from their primes still. Jimmer has the potential to be like Bibby or Curry, but hes a rookie on a non coached team, so what do you expect from him right now.

Salmons is talented, started on playoff teams for the last cuple years, he just needs his role re-defined. IT was a steal, he could end up like Barea. Hickson can be more then a role player if he learns to defend, hes also 3-4 years from his prrime. JT isnt a bust, he is just lost in rotation, and under pressure every time he plays because he knows if he screws up hes out of the game. Ill agree Donte is looking like a bust.

I consider Hayes a super role player. he has alot on his shoulders right now as the starting PF trying to lead this team defensively, especially since the other players and our coach dont know how to defend or teach it. when we get our Tall defensive anchor, hayes is going to ccome off the bench and be a major force defensively.

Not having a coach has a big impact on a young team. Thats why alot of our players arent playing to their potential right now. but dont be fooled by what you've seen the first 5 games this year. Our players can play alot better then what they are showing. Like I said tho, its hard to see this team gelling as one unit with the lack of defence and passing and abundance of iso players.
 
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bajaden

Hall of Famer
#14
I just don't agree. You really think we have a "massive" amount of talent? One of the most in the league??? The only talented players we have are Reke, DMC, and Thornton right now, and none of them will likely be stars in the league (DMC might if he gets his **** together). Jimmer may end up being talented but right now he's really struggling. IT, Honeycut, and Whiteside are all 2nd round picks and are pretty much projects. Salmons, Outlaw, Hayes, Garcia, Hickson are role players in this league and are struggling on a weak Kings team. JT and Donte have proven they are pretty much busts.
I really don't want to get into a pi$$ing contest with you, but I do take umbarage with some of your observations. Which is unfortunate, because in general, I agree with your premise. That being, the team is poorly constructed. I won't argue that Greene isn't a bust. Hard to find facts that support otherwise, but I'd hardly call Thompson a bust. Granted, he's not a star, and maybe people expected him to be one when he arrived. If so, that wasn't fair to him. But I can guarantee you that they're a lot of teams that would love to have Thompson. Lets not forget that Thompson has played under 4 different head coaches in four years. He's played with god knows how many different players, and has been jerked around endlessly since he's been here. He's gone from starter to bench player to back to starter to DNP (coaches decision) to back to starter to bench player, and the beat goes on.

Ask yourself this. How much better would Thompson be if he were on the Celtics? Or the Lakers, surrounded by good players and knowiing his role on the team? How much better would he be if he had Steve Nash on the floor with him? Now I've made this about Thompson, but in truth, this scenario could be applied to a lot of the players on the team. I agree that all the pieces on this team don't seem to fit together well, but there is talent on this team. Whats needed is a coach thats able to utilitize the talent properly. Going into his third year, we should be able to see the resemblence of some sort of system. So I ask you! Do you see a system in place, or do you see a coach thats still moving pieces around and hoping something clicks on any given night?

I'm not making the argument that this is a contending team talent wise. But I'am arguing that this team is better than the results its put up so far. The biggest problem is lack of balance. Most of the scoring is coming from the perimiter, and very little from the post. Our best post player, Cousins, is asked to spend over 50% of his time, if not more, at the top of the key or the left wing. Leaving him in a great position to pass the ball to cutters, of which there have been few, or as the clock winds down, either make some sort of take it to the basket move, or shoot a jumper. In short, at present, its a mess, but it doesn't have to be. If possible you play a player to his strengths. And thats not happening for the most part.

What we really have are two seperate issues. One is the coaching. And the other is the makeup of the team. And while they're connected, they need to be solved seperately. To be honest, I can't really make a judgement on how good this team is, until I see them being used properly. I'd certainly change the coach, before I start changing players. Too often in the NBA, one man's trash becomes another man's treasure. Like Thornton..
 
#15
Coach has looked bad, but he's in a sticky situation right now... who do you start when the entire team is playing awful?

This team needs to start running plays, though... enough of this "I let them do whatever the hell they want because they're professionals" stuff...
 
#16
People like me, fans here, fans from other teams and people in the media all thought the team's roster made no sense. It's not a surprise now that its happening. This falls on the FO. There seems to be a problem where there's nobody involved in decision making that has an accurate idea of the type of players they have. Signs of this: Salmons trade, letting go of the closest thing you have to a PG in Beno, Tyreke as a PG, pursuing Jamal Crawford, and not pursuing a pass first ball handler. This all points to the idea that maybe the organization is clueless about their own players.
 

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#17
I think this team could function with a high post motion offense. It would require the ball in DMC's hands a bit more, but you have the opportunity for Evans/Thornton to slash to the rim, or at least the opportunity for good looks from the outside for Thornton. What I see as more than a mismatch is difficulty trying to discern what this offense is supposed to look like. There's not much penetration, and it the ball doesn't seem to work its way inside in order to get good looks from the post or at least better kick-outs in order to find an open shot.

Evans/Thornton/Greene/Hayes/DMC is a decent lineup. It's a lineup that shouldn't create as much dysfunction as it has. Even popping in Jimmer instead of Greene is fine, because it gives you two viable outside threats at the expense of some defense, but, similar to last year, there's a lineup carousel that only seems to be getting worse. Outlaw should not be in the "big" rotation. I'm not sure what to do about Salmons.

I still believe this lineup can work, but the minutes, in addition to the way the team is arranged on the floor, needs to make more sense. And that's on the coach. We do need to put down the pitchforks on the team itself, knowing that there was no real camp, no real preseason, and we're 6 games in, but Westphal needs to get a hold of things a whole lot more quickly.
 
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LWP777

Guest
#19
I really don't want to get into a pi$$ing contest with you, but I do take umbarage with some of your observations. Which is unfortunate, because in general, I agree with your premise. That being, the team is poorly constructed. I won't argue that Greene isn't a bust. Hard to find facts that support otherwise, but I'd hardly call Thompson a bust. Granted, he's not a star, and maybe people expected him to be one when he arrived. If so, that wasn't fair to him. But I can guarantee you that they're a lot of teams that would love to have Thompson. Lets not forget that Thompson has played under 4 different head coaches in four years. He's played with god knows how many different players, and has been jerked around endlessly since he's been here. He's gone from starter to bench player to back to starter to DNP (coaches decision) to back to starter to bench player, and the beat goes on.

Ask yourself this. How much better would Thompson be if he were on the Celtics? Or the Lakers, surrounded by good players and knowiing his role on the team? How much better would he be if he had Steve Nash on the floor with him? Now I've made this about Thompson, but in truth, this scenario could be applied to a lot of the players on the team. I agree that all the pieces on this team don't seem to fit together well, but there is talent on this team. Whats needed is a coach thats able to utilitize the talent properly. Going into his third year, we should be able to see the resemblence of some sort of system. So I ask you! Do you see a system in place, or do you see a coach thats still moving pieces around and hoping something clicks on any given night?

I'm not making the argument that this is a contending team talent wise. But I'am arguing that this team is better than the results its put up so far. The biggest problem is lack of balance. Most of the scoring is coming from the perimiter, and very little from the post. Our best post player, Cousins, is asked to spend over 50% of his time, if not more, at the top of the key or the left wing. Leaving him in a great position to pass the ball to cutters, of which there have been few, or as the clock winds down, either make some sort of take it to the basket move, or shoot a jumper. In short, at present, its a mess, but it doesn't have to be. If possible you play a player to his strengths. And thats not happening for the most part.

What we really have are two seperate issues. One is the coaching. And the other is the makeup of the team. And while they're connected, they need to be solved seperately. To be honest, I can't really make a judgement on how good this team is, until I see them being used properly. I'd certainly change the coach, before I start changing players. Too often in the NBA, one man's trash becomes another man's treasure. Like Thornton..
Baja, as you know I've been very critical of JT over the years. Your defense of him is littered with excuses! What if he had a different coach, what if he had a different team, what if he had Steve Nash...Come on Baja! It doesn't matter with solid players. They find a way to be effective. If he had Phil Jackson as a coach and Steve Nash as his PG, it still wouldn't stop him from missing gimmies around the rim. It still wouldn't stop him from committing STUPID "And 1" fouls every game. It wouldn't stop him from having one of the lowest basketball IQ's in the history of basketball (Okay, I admit that comment was a little Bill Waltonish!). I'm just not a fan of his game!

Now to your points that I agree with....I agree that he has a place in the league and a few teams would like to have him simply because he can be a decent role player off the bench. He can do some positive things out there but for me all the negative stuff outweighs it. You're probably right in that he's not a "bust" because he really wasn't expected to be a superstar or anything. He was a late lotto pick. But he is what he is and I really wouldn't expect him to do a whole lot more in his career than what he does right now.
 
#20
Of course this team is poorly constructed. I've said that immediately after the Salmons trade. It's inexcusable for anyone to even contemplate that Salmons, Evans, Thorton can start together. Even Don Nelson would grimace at that lineup.

None other than Bobby Knight once said, "You cannot be a good basketball player if you're selfish. You cannot built a good basketball team with selfish players no matter how talented they are."

This team has too many selfish players, and most of them are in the starting lineup.
 

Krunker

Northernmost Kings Fan
#21
We obviously need a real point guard. Without one I think our best option is the high post motion offense with Cousins at the top like Spike mentioned. I'd rather see Cousins working out of the low post, but we need someone to set him up and that clogs up the middle for our dribble drivers. I recall a video in the preseason where Cousins said that the offense was supposed to involve himself and Hayes passing the ball to splitting guards.
 
#22
I still dont see any point wharsoever in going with hayes over Dally, bringing back salmons again, signing Outlaw. The only good signing of the offseason is Hickson.
 
#23
I'm not going to even tap into DMC's psyche, but he will never be anything but an average post player if he never develops a left hand, half hook and how to use his body. I've never seen someone of that size who's athletic and has decent foot speed get their shot thrown back down their throat so often.
 
#24
I'm not sure what the problem is but it's becoming more clear by the game that this team sucks about as bad as last year, and the year before that, and the year before that. It seems like every year it's the same thing. We think THIS is the year things will finally start to improve. Then a week or two into the season, it inevitably becomes clear that not only has nothing changed but that there's no signs that anything will change. I'm not talking about expecting playoffs, even, just ANY real sign of improvement. I'd be happy with .450 ball right now because at least it would be a sign that things are improving.

Oh well. At least we still have a team. Better a bad team than no team.
 
#25
I believe the structure of this team is fine ,it really comes down to balance and coaching. Like others have said starting Evans, Thornton and Salmons will never work. What a real NBA coach would do is balance the floor better by making MT the six man, starting Jimmer or ITv2 at the one and put Reke at the 2. With that backcourt you have a balance of scoring and playmaking, this current backcourt set up will only work on nights against inferior defensive teams ex. New Orleans. The frontcourt is easier to solve as well if PW just started JT or Hick with Cousins and bring the other off the bench with Hayes. This team just has all their weapons and me first guys in the starting lineup and this team isnt the only team with that problem, the other coaches just balance the lineups better. The day this team has better coaching and lineup managing you will see the talents of these youngsters show through.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#26
Baja, as you know I've been very critical of JT over the years. Your defense of him is littered with excuses! What if he had a different coach, what if he had a different team, what if he had Steve Nash...Come on Baja! It doesn't matter with solid players. They find a way to be effective. If he had Phil Jackson as a coach and Steve Nash as his PG, it still wouldn't stop him from missing gimmies around the rim. It still wouldn't stop him from committing STUPID "And 1" fouls every game. It wouldn't stop him from having one of the lowest basketball IQ's in the history of basketball (Okay, I admit that comment was a little Bill Waltonish!). I'm just not a fan of his game!

Now to your points that I agree with....I agree that he has a place in the league and a few teams would like to have him simply because he can be a decent role player off the bench. He can do some positive things out there but for me all the negative stuff outweighs it. You're probably right in that he's not a "bust" because he really wasn't expected to be a superstar or anything. He was a late lotto pick. But he is what he is and I really wouldn't expect him to do a whole lot more in his career than what he does right now.
Well, I think you missed my main point. And frankly I'm tired of trying to make it. You are a creature of extremes, and I just don't go there. Just your nature, and believe me, you have company on this fourm. In Thompson's case, I'm not making excuses for him. He doesn't really need any. He's hardly the problem with this team. If anything, he's one of the true professionals that goes out every game and busts his butt. He has no obvious plays run for him that I can see, but if you give him 20 or so minutes a game he'll get you 10 pts and 7 or 8 rebounds along with playing decent to good defense. I could go around the league and show you players of similar ilk that do less and make more.

The premise of this thread was that the team is poorly constructed. And I agree with that premise. The premise isn't about whether JT lived up to your expectations or not. As for making excuses, take my explainations anyway you want. But I was stating facts about his history here. I doubt you'll have to worry about Thompson much in the future, because if things stay as they are, I doubt the Kings will be able to resign him. I predict he'll take their qualifing offer for one year and then become an unrestricted freeagent the following season and be gone. At which time you can celebrate...
 
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LWP777

Guest
#27
I doubt you'll have to worry about Thompson much in the future, because if things stay as they are, I doubt the Kings will be able to resign him. I predict he'll take their qualifing offer for one year and then become an unrestricted freeagent the following season and be gone. At which time you can celebrate...
This is my favorite part about your post! Maybe we can have a cerveza and celebrate together!
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#28
There's nothing wrong with having several players that can do it all - shoot, dribble, pass. That's all good. Unfortunately, this team is very sub-par in passing. I've been crying about our poor ball handling in the backcourt for a while. Unfortunately, my tears don't sway management. Look at the assist to turnovers game by game. I think the NO game was pretty good. Other than that - horrible. Even the Laker game they were bad - 16 assists and 11 turnovers. (Thornton's hot shooting and good D just ended up bailing them out of their sucky ballhandling/passing in the LA game).

Overall, this team is above average athletically, below average in skill. The only chance for improvement is improving their skill level and I don't see barely a hint of it when I look at the court. I give kudos to Thompson when he's got in there. He stands out because he does look better than when he came into the league. Tyreke and Cousins, the two keystones to this team don't look to have any better skills than when they arrived in Sacto. It's a far cry from what happened in OKC.

This team CAN be a very good defensive team. But I haven't seen the consistent effort in that regard. Too bad. It's their strongest potential asset.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#30
There's nothing wrong with having several players that can do it all - shoot, dribble, pass. That's all good. Unfortunately, this team is very sub-par in passing. I've been crying about our poor ball handling in the backcourt for a while. Unfortunately, my tears don't sway management. Look at the assist to turnovers game by game. I think the NO game was pretty good. Other than that - horrible. Even the Laker game they were bad - 16 assists and 11 turnovers. (Thornton's hot shooting and good D just ended up bailing them out of their sucky ballhandling/passing in the LA game).

Overall, this team is above average athletically, below average in skill. The only chance for improvement is improving their skill level and I don't see barely a hint of it when I look at the court. I give kudos to Thompson when he's got in there. He stands out because he does look better than when he came into the league. Tyreke and Cousins, the two keystones to this team don't look to have any better skills than when they arrived in Sacto. It's a far cry from what happened in OKC.

This team CAN be a very good defensive team. But I haven't seen the consistent effort in that regard. Too bad. It's their strongest potential asset.
I don't think we have a lack of people that can handle the ball. I think your real issue is what those people do with the ball. Evans can certainly handle the ball. So can Thornton, Salmons, Fredette, Thomas, even Cousins is a good ballhandler for his size and position. However, Being a good ballhandler doesn't make you a good decision maker. Strangely enough, two rookies show me the most potential as good decision makers, but they both lack the NBA experience right now to be difference makers. Thats Fredette and Thomas, who both have shown PG potential, as pass first PG's.

Ask yourself this. In last nights game, how many plays were run for a post player, and how many plays were run for perimiter players? And I'm not counting JJ Hickson taking a 15 foot jumper as a post play. Most of our scoring in the post came from putbacks off missed shots, or by a guard driving the lane. I remember one specific play when Cousins first came into the game where he did a spin move in the post. I don't remember one more post play by Cousins in the entire game. Is this an accident, or by design?