Pacers v. Pistons Brawl (MERGED)
- Thread starter vj9999
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Last night as you all have already discussed was a sad, sad day in sports history, let alone NBA history. There are a lot of fingers to be pointed and blame to place its too early to even sort out things even this morning. I do hope everyone gets punished, and I do hope in this incident things are exaggerated and the officials use this to set an example. You have to now, in hopes of something worse doesn't happen somewhere down the line.
There is no excuse for what any one did. Everyone was wrong.
Not saying that we are angels or that it couldn't happen at Arco, but we're sitting here talking about glowsticks and boo birds!
::shakes head::
Just gives the NBA and sports in general a bad name. This week has been bad for sports. First all of that negative pub with that MNF intro, I think there was a fight before some game in the NFL too, and then this atrocity.
There is no excuse for what any one did. Everyone was wrong.
Not saying that we are angels or that it couldn't happen at Arco, but we're sitting here talking about glowsticks and boo birds!
::shakes head::
Just gives the NBA and sports in general a bad name. This week has been bad for sports. First all of that negative pub with that MNF intro, I think there was a fight before some game in the NFL too, and then this atrocity.
I would say maybe a couple of more suspensions. Ban the fans but if you prosecute them, the players that threw punches HAVE to be prosecuted too. I don't believe that because they are athletes they are exempt from the law.( BUT, that is just my opinon). And thank GOD Scot wasn't involved, nice to see him keep him cool and get the other players out of there. I feel really sorry for the old woman and child that were affected/hurt by this.
You have much more restraint than I have. Someone throws beer on you and instinct takes over. Artest was staying out of the fight on the court. The fight was under control until the fans got involved. Kind of makes the throwing of the glow sticks last year at ARCO look like childs play. I believe that Artest will get suspended, but the league should also look at the cicumstances. IMHO, Wallce should be suspended for the longest period out of anyone. It was his overaction to a foul that started the whole mess.
http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/game70_pistons_020326.html
What I want to know, is what the hell Brad Miller was doing in Detroit!?
What I want to know, is what the hell Brad Miller was doing in Detroit!?
Thanks for the video. One thing, at one point during the Brawl, one of the Piston announcers said that this isn't pretty but IT HAPPENS. I believe that was Bill Lambeer who said it. I know he has seen and in a lot of cases instigated fights in his career, but to say that IT HAPPENS is making sound like this extreme of a circumstance is normal. IMHO.
Does anyone remember 4 or 5 years ago in Orlando when Bobby and T-Mac got into it and were both ejected. As Bobby was leaving sombody threw beer on him. He turned around and yelled at the fan but I don't remember him ever trying to go into the stands to fight the fan!!! But maybe I'm wrong.
I keep hearing that Artest was defending himself. I disagree. Artest got hit with a plastic bottle by one stupid fan. Had he not gone into the stands I am sure the arena security would have found the guy who threw the cup and dealt with him. Artest was not defending anything except his pride.
Just My Opinion
I keep hearing that Artest was defending himself. I disagree. Artest got hit with a plastic bottle by one stupid fan. Had he not gone into the stands I am sure the arena security would have found the guy who threw the cup and dealt with him. Artest was not defending anything except his pride.
Just My Opinion
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There was no way Bobby could've got to the fan at that point, since the guy was above him in the stands and Bobby was already being escorted out. He did run out to look and point at the guy, though, and I'm sure if he had long enough arms, he'd have decked him right there.
I hope the player suspensions aren't too severe for one reason:
I don't want the League to give the impression in any way that fans can engage in this type of behavior-- physically assaulting players-- and sit back knowing the players can't do squat because they're the ones who will get in big trouble. Any normal person would react similarly, and when you attack an athelete in the middle of a competition, when his emotions are already running high, you know what he's gonna do.
And I do believe throwing beverages or any other item counts as assault in a court of law... can anyone confirm that?
~~
I hope the player suspensions aren't too severe for one reason:
I don't want the League to give the impression in any way that fans can engage in this type of behavior-- physically assaulting players-- and sit back knowing the players can't do squat because they're the ones who will get in big trouble. Any normal person would react similarly, and when you attack an athelete in the middle of a competition, when his emotions are already running high, you know what he's gonna do.
And I do believe throwing beverages or any other item counts as assault in a court of law... can anyone confirm that?
~~
This is ridiculous. That article that Brick posted pretty much says it all.
John Saunders is a douche. I don't care how many beers you throw at somebody (especially if their in a plastic cup; no glass is allowed in NBA arenas), it's not self-defense if you go beat them up afterward. People are confusing self-defense with retaliation. Ron Artest was in no danger until he jumped into the stands.
And if the fans are cowards, how cowardly was RonRon's foul on Ben Wallace? And I found it interesting that he didn't want to go toes with Big Ben, but willingly went after the 160 lb. white guy from MIT.
Let me make myself clear, though. The whole incident was wrong. No one was justified. The brawl didn't start until Artest went into the stands, and he wasn't defending himself. Stephen Jackson wanted to fight from the minute Wallace got fouled; you could see him jumping around trying to get to Ben while Rasheed Wallace (the peacemaker, ironically) was trying to separate everybody. Jermaine O'Neal was dead wrong. Jamaal Tinsley was almost dead wrong. The fans were wrong, starting with the one that threw the beer.
And when all is said and done, nothing will be any different. There's no way that either of Artest, O'Neal or Jackson should be allowed to play before January. Ben Wallace will probably get more than what he deserves, but he flew off the handle as well. The fans won't be handled the way that they should be.
It's all sad, really. And none of it had to happen.
John Saunders is a douche. I don't care how many beers you throw at somebody (especially if their in a plastic cup; no glass is allowed in NBA arenas), it's not self-defense if you go beat them up afterward. People are confusing self-defense with retaliation. Ron Artest was in no danger until he jumped into the stands.
And if the fans are cowards, how cowardly was RonRon's foul on Ben Wallace? And I found it interesting that he didn't want to go toes with Big Ben, but willingly went after the 160 lb. white guy from MIT.
Let me make myself clear, though. The whole incident was wrong. No one was justified. The brawl didn't start until Artest went into the stands, and he wasn't defending himself. Stephen Jackson wanted to fight from the minute Wallace got fouled; you could see him jumping around trying to get to Ben while Rasheed Wallace (the peacemaker, ironically) was trying to separate everybody. Jermaine O'Neal was dead wrong. Jamaal Tinsley was almost dead wrong. The fans were wrong, starting with the one that threw the beer.
And when all is said and done, nothing will be any different. There's no way that either of Artest, O'Neal or Jackson should be allowed to play before January. Ben Wallace will probably get more than what he deserves, but he flew off the handle as well. The fans won't be handled the way that they should be.
It's all sad, really. And none of it had to happen.
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Yes, I remember because I was at that game. The guy who threw the cup was escorted out of the TD Waterhouse Centre in handcuffs. BJax never ran into the stands, but he was trying to...
If it wasn't for the security guards escorting him out, BJax would have been up there swinging.
I remember the feeling as I was leaving. The Kings did win in OT and all the fans were fuming at the incident. I had my face painted purple and white and I swear I thought I was going to get jumped.
If it wasn't for the security guards escorting him out, BJax would have been up there swinging.
I remember the feeling as I was leaving. The Kings did win in OT and all the fans were fuming at the incident. I had my face painted purple and white and I swear I thought I was going to get jumped.
I agree with Superman. Which ever players went into the stands should be getting the heaviest punishment. Artest and Jackson went into the stands to retaliate not to defend themselves. Lets not forget that these basketball players are considered celebrities and are held to a higher standard than a normal person. Going into the stands did nothing but escalate the problem.
The only incident where I can side with Artest is after he came out of the stands and the other fan with the Detriot jeresy met him on the court and Artest jabbed him in the face and O'Neal came over and laid on the KO punch. That fan had no business being on the court and that incident was in total self defense. I don't know if O'Neal was in the stands prior to that, but he should not have any suspensions or fines for landing that punch.
The only incident where I can side with Artest is after he came out of the stands and the other fan with the Detriot jeresy met him on the court and Artest jabbed him in the face and O'Neal came over and laid on the KO punch. That fan had no business being on the court and that incident was in total self defense. I don't know if O'Neal was in the stands prior to that, but he should not have any suspensions or fines for landing that punch.
The fan had no business being on the court, but how is it self-defense when you hit a man in the face that doesn't even have his hands in fighting position, a man who probably wouldn't hurt you even if he did hit you, a man that hadn't hit you or even swung at you, a man who - I believe - had a beer in his hand?
And Jermaine O'Neal was 15 feet away. He wasn't defending anything except his right to sock a man on his knees in the face. The only thing about it is that his lawyers forgot to tell him that he doesn't have that right.
Don't get me wrong: the fans were wrong as well, from the very start. But I'm tired of hearing about self-defense. Ron Artest wasn't in any danger from the man that he hit in the face, and Jermaine O'Neal wasn't in any danger from the man whose clock he cleaned. Self-defense = protecting yourself from harm, not hitting someone who made you mad.
And Jermaine O'Neal was 15 feet away. He wasn't defending anything except his right to sock a man on his knees in the face. The only thing about it is that his lawyers forgot to tell him that he doesn't have that right.
Don't get me wrong: the fans were wrong as well, from the very start. But I'm tired of hearing about self-defense. Ron Artest wasn't in any danger from the man that he hit in the face, and Jermaine O'Neal wasn't in any danger from the man whose clock he cleaned. Self-defense = protecting yourself from harm, not hitting someone who made you mad.
Let me start off my explanation by saying that I don't think anybody was right in this situation. Players, fans, security everything was just wrong. But when you have a fan on the court in this situation he is there for pure malicious purposes. It doesn't matter if his hands were by his side or up in fighting position (I just watched it again - no beer in his hand and he did square up to Artest before being punched the first time), that fan was down there to start trouble. The reason I call it self defense in this case is because we don't know what kind of trouble he intended on starting. Artest does not know this person, O'neal does not know this person and for all we know he could of had a weapon.
My rationale is, the last time I remember a fan going onto a court to attack a player, Monica Seles was stabbed. Why can't Artest protect himself on his basketball court from a similar situation? Why can't O'neal come over and knock that person out as an insurance before the situation escalates even more?
The court belongs to the players and my comparison may be far-fetched but: if you were in your house and someone you didn't know snuck in, you would not be out of line to kick the crap of that person whether he was ready to fight or not. Your house is you safe haven, the court should be the players safe haven. I blame that fan first, then security for letting him sneak on. Artest was protecting himself and O'neal was protecting Artest.
My rationale is, the last time I remember a fan going onto a court to attack a player, Monica Seles was stabbed. Why can't Artest protect himself on his basketball court from a similar situation? Why can't O'neal come over and knock that person out as an insurance before the situation escalates even more?
The court belongs to the players and my comparison may be far-fetched but: if you were in your house and someone you didn't know snuck in, you would not be out of line to kick the crap of that person whether he was ready to fight or not. Your house is you safe haven, the court should be the players safe haven. I blame that fan first, then security for letting him sneak on. Artest was protecting himself and O'neal was protecting Artest.
Okay, let's say ol' boy from the stands was ready to fight. There are a couple of things we do know:
1) No weapons are allowed in the arena. I went to a Clipper game the other night and got frisked because my belt buckle set the metal detector off. There are no glass containers sold in the arena. That fan had nothing dangerous except - potentially - his fists.
2) The fan in question was probably less than six feet tall, a round, pudgy looking fellow who probably wouldn't have landed a punch had he thrown one at all. And if he had thrown one, it wouldn't have done much; it's like throwing a grapefruit at a charging bear.
That having been said, those two fans were wrong for being on the court. No doubt about it. They may have been taunting, uttering racial slurs, threatening his family, etc. And let's say that for that half second that it took for Ron Artest to cold-roster ol' boy that his actions were warranted. (I don't believe they were, but that might be a grey area, so I'll go with it for a minute.) He hit the man in the face so hard that he not only knocked him down, but knocked the guy down standing behind him. As the guy behind him is getting up, here comes Jermaine "Get me a piece of the action" O'Neal, flying in from 15 feet away, delivering a punch that Ivan "The Russian Steroid" Drago would have been proud of. Totally uncalled for, unjustifiable, and animalistic, if you ask me. Jermaine O'Neal is going to get his pants sued off of him for that.
He can. But he wasn't protecting anyone, he wasn't defending anyone. He was so mad and so worked up that he came from out of the picture and blind-sided a man that was on his knees, not posing a threat to anyone. Look at it again: what could that man have done from that position? The answer: get knocked the F out.
You are correct. I have the right to defend my house, and Jermaine O'Neal and Ron Artest have the right to defend themselves on a basketball court.
But let's set something straight here: Jermaine O'Neal wasn't protecting himself or anyone else. He was punishing someone for ... I don't know what, being a Pistons fan, I guess. Artest wasn't in need of Jermaine O'Neal's protection.
And there's a big difference between someone sneaking into my house and me being involved in a brawl. Everyone's talking about self-defense, but what about self-restraint? No one showed any, and everyone shares equal blame.
1) No weapons are allowed in the arena. I went to a Clipper game the other night and got frisked because my belt buckle set the metal detector off. There are no glass containers sold in the arena. That fan had nothing dangerous except - potentially - his fists.
2) The fan in question was probably less than six feet tall, a round, pudgy looking fellow who probably wouldn't have landed a punch had he thrown one at all. And if he had thrown one, it wouldn't have done much; it's like throwing a grapefruit at a charging bear.
That having been said, those two fans were wrong for being on the court. No doubt about it. They may have been taunting, uttering racial slurs, threatening his family, etc. And let's say that for that half second that it took for Ron Artest to cold-roster ol' boy that his actions were warranted. (I don't believe they were, but that might be a grey area, so I'll go with it for a minute.) He hit the man in the face so hard that he not only knocked him down, but knocked the guy down standing behind him. As the guy behind him is getting up, here comes Jermaine "Get me a piece of the action" O'Neal, flying in from 15 feet away, delivering a punch that Ivan "The Russian Steroid" Drago would have been proud of. Totally uncalled for, unjustifiable, and animalistic, if you ask me. Jermaine O'Neal is going to get his pants sued off of him for that.
He can. But he wasn't protecting anyone, he wasn't defending anyone. He was so mad and so worked up that he came from out of the picture and blind-sided a man that was on his knees, not posing a threat to anyone. Look at it again: what could that man have done from that position? The answer: get knocked the F out.
You are correct. I have the right to defend my house, and Jermaine O'Neal and Ron Artest have the right to defend themselves on a basketball court.
But let's set something straight here: Jermaine O'Neal wasn't protecting himself or anyone else. He was punishing someone for ... I don't know what, being a Pistons fan, I guess. Artest wasn't in need of Jermaine O'Neal's protection.
And there's a big difference between someone sneaking into my house and me being involved in a brawl. Everyone's talking about self-defense, but what about self-restraint? No one showed any, and everyone shares equal blame.
I'd like to toss in a comment about the foul on Wallace that caused everything:
45 seconds to go, game pretty much over with Pacers leading by 15 and this idiot Artest swings from behind and of course gets nothing but Wallace's head and shoulders. Natural reaction: hit him in the jaw.
Then, he lays on the scorer table, crosses his legs and puts hands behind his head acting like he's a bad ***. I wish I was there to throw anything at him myself.
The whole scene was hilarious: GO PISTONS!!!
45 seconds to go, game pretty much over with Pacers leading by 15 and this idiot Artest swings from behind and of course gets nothing but Wallace's head and shoulders. Natural reaction: hit him in the jaw.
Then, he lays on the scorer table, crosses his legs and puts hands behind his head acting like he's a bad ***. I wish I was there to throw anything at him myself.
The whole scene was hilarious: GO PISTONS!!!
Here is my short unadulaterated observation, heh heh heh...I've watched replays about 12 times, and maybe that's less than others since i've only been watching T.V. for 2 hours.
Anyway, Artest hard fouls Wallace and receives physical-attack-style retaliation from Wallace, typical 2 to 3 game suspension for Wallace, period.
Artest then attempts to relieve himself from his rage by laying on the scorers table. He lays on his back, completely exposed, expecting.....WHAT??? Duh. A fan 'assaults' him by throwing what amounts to of 3-4 oz. of luquid, in plastic. Artest, in further rage, is thoretically ambushed and responds accordingly: He attacks! Jackson and O'Neil soon follow.
Jackson & O'neill will receive significant multiple game suspensions, to be sure. The baddest news is for Artest (not to mention, he is already behind the 8 ball regarding his legitimatcy as a thinking human being, and this makes him asking for some personal time off pale in comparison). I believe Artest will suffer for this with MANY, MANY GAMES SUSPENDED... possibly into the All-Star break. Others agree with me, he should be banned from the NBA. But heck, I was wrong about O.J.
The fans ALWAYS chant to other teams (not that I would ever do it), it's been happening since sports started. The fans are not protected, their liability in this kind of a bruhaha is nil. However, the liability of NBA players is just astounding in comparison (to nil). Can anyone of us even COMPREHEND the financial consequences last nights act may incur - not only against players, but against the NBA? Fans will run this trick to the gound, mark my words. The lawsuits are going to be enormous, whether or not they are shared with the media. There is tape, you know!
Stern has a reason to worry. How this may all be sorted out by tomorrow evening is a mystery I'll enjoy watching get solved
. NBA may want to forget about this VERY SOON, but I don't see that happening. Even commentators are getting greased up with their opposing takes. ESPN is drama central right now.
Anyway, Artest hard fouls Wallace and receives physical-attack-style retaliation from Wallace, typical 2 to 3 game suspension for Wallace, period.
Artest then attempts to relieve himself from his rage by laying on the scorers table. He lays on his back, completely exposed, expecting.....WHAT??? Duh. A fan 'assaults' him by throwing what amounts to of 3-4 oz. of luquid, in plastic. Artest, in further rage, is thoretically ambushed and responds accordingly: He attacks! Jackson and O'Neil soon follow.
Jackson & O'neill will receive significant multiple game suspensions, to be sure. The baddest news is for Artest (not to mention, he is already behind the 8 ball regarding his legitimatcy as a thinking human being, and this makes him asking for some personal time off pale in comparison). I believe Artest will suffer for this with MANY, MANY GAMES SUSPENDED... possibly into the All-Star break. Others agree with me, he should be banned from the NBA. But heck, I was wrong about O.J.
The fans ALWAYS chant to other teams (not that I would ever do it), it's been happening since sports started. The fans are not protected, their liability in this kind of a bruhaha is nil. However, the liability of NBA players is just astounding in comparison (to nil). Can anyone of us even COMPREHEND the financial consequences last nights act may incur - not only against players, but against the NBA? Fans will run this trick to the gound, mark my words. The lawsuits are going to be enormous, whether or not they are shared with the media. There is tape, you know!
Stern has a reason to worry. How this may all be sorted out by tomorrow evening is a mystery I'll enjoy watching get solved
. NBA may want to forget about this VERY SOON, but I don't see that happening. Even commentators are getting greased up with their opposing takes. ESPN is drama central right now.
Did Big Ben charge into the stands to attack a fan in "self defense?" Did he come running and sliding to sock a stupid fan in the side of the head? I don't think so. Sure, he got Artest going, but I think other players did a lot more damage than Ben. And some of those fans should get in as much trouble as those players. Geez, have these men ever heard of something called a controlled temper? Ugh... such a disgrace.
And I heard that Artest went into the stand and started beating the wrong guy. Like the guy he attacked was actually holding a drink, so he couldn't have been the one who threw it. Anyone know about this?
And I heard that Artest went into the stand and started beating the wrong guy. Like the guy he attacked was actually holding a drink, so he couldn't have been the one who threw it. Anyone know about this?