Pacers v. Pistons Brawl (MERGED)

[VF21]

I applaud the league in their indefinite suspension of Wallace (whose initial response to Artest started the chain reaction in the first place), Artest (who was an idiot), Jackson and O'Neal...

There are differing stories about the guy Artest went after. Just because he was "holding a drink" doesn't mean he couldn't have grabbed a cup from someone else - or off the floor.

I think the Detroit police will be looking at those tapes for quite a while. There were NO winners in that embarrassing display last night.



David Stern made a very telling comment:

This demonstrates why our players must not enter the stands whatever the provocation or poisonous behavior of people attending the games.

I'm hoping the vast majority of fans who aren't prone to poisonous behavior will step up. If I'm going to pay very large amounts of money to attend an NBA game, I'm certainly not going to want the idiot next to me to ruin it for my family AND put them in danger. Maybe from now on people will be a little less tolerant of abherrant behavior and a little faster to complain to the ushers. I think they have the right...

 

[albeitrue]

Wallace was not responsible for Artest's actions. Granted, Artest was expected to overreact (for the second time, the first was the foul), but he didn't overreact with Wallace, making Wallace's total contribution "one" to Artest's many, both in the stands and on the court afterward. Artest may have been annoyed initially by Wallace's shove, but Wallace was not involved in Artest's decision to start attacking fans. If Artest hadn't gone into the stands, O'Neal and Jackson could not have followed. End of subject.

To punish Wallace for more than than his shoving of Artest would be wrong, it just would be.

On a side note, it was refreshing to see Pollard talking hard to O'Neal when he was finally ushered off the court. I saw that when it happened live, I noticed Pollard speaking firmly to O'Neal, to coax him into the lockerroom. I always liked and have missed Pollard, and he showed good leadership skills with O'Neal.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Hitting Wallace with a suspension longer than 3 games may well fall into the catagory of "being made an example of" but if players know that agressivly seeking a fight and refusing to leave when ejected has a serious consequence then they might (howerver unlikely) think tiwce about puffing up espcialy on a meaningless possesion. Sad that Artest had to foul hard with a 10 point lead and 50 seconds left, sadder still that Ben had to puff up and go semi-postal when theoutcome of the game was assured.

 

[VF21]

Wallace was not responsible for Artest's actions. Granted, Artest was expected to overreact (for the second time, the first was the foul), but he didn't overreact with Wallace, making Wallace's total contribution "one" to Artest's many, both in the stands and on the court afterward. Artest may have been annoyed initially by Wallace's shove, but Wallace was not involved in Artest's decision to start attacking fans. If Artest hadn't gone into the stands, O'Neal and Jackson could not have followed. End of subject..

End of subject? Oh, I think not.

Ben Wallace needs to know he cannot get away with his actions. I don't know how many games he should be suspended, but I hope they do make an example of him. This type of on-court thuggery has gone on too long, and has done a lot of damage IMHO to the game of basketball.

Irrespective of whatever punishment the league deems fit for Wallace, the Pacers (Artest, O'Neal and Jackson) punishment should also be in the "make an example" category.

Players MUST NOT go after the fans. Period.

In addition, the Auburn Hills police (thanks for the clarification, jacobdrj) will I HOPE "make an example" of the fan who threw the beverage at Artest AND those fans who came onto the court. Fans MUST NOT go on the court after the players. Period.

The whole thing could have been disastrous. The elderly woman who was trampled could have been severely injured. There were children there who may never want to go to another game.

There's enough shame to go around for everyone, including Ben Wallace.

 

[Bricklayer]

The whole thing could have been disastrous. The elderly woman who was trampled could have been severely injured.

bleeping little old ladies! Always getting underfoot.

 

[6th]

Big Ben really lost his cool starting this whole thing. I have watched the "shove" many times and there was nothing simple about it. Shoving at a person's neck/face is a serious infraction...IMHO. Also, Ben stayed very angry and should have left the court when ejected. Instead, he throws something at Artest. Granted, it was just a towel, but that is not the point. It was another example of the thuggery that has invaded the NBA. So, now you have two acts of aggression by Wallace (and one of them after being told to leave the court). In my mind, it deserves at least a 5 game suspension. There needs to be an example made....as some have already mentioned.

I won't even comment on the others. They were just plain stupid to go into the crowd of fans. They can expect at least 10 games. Anything else will be a total surprise to me.

 

[albeitrue]

Hitting Wallace with a suspension longer than 3 games may well fall into the catagory of "being made an example of" but if players know that agressivly seeking a fight and refusing to leave when ejected has a serious consequence then they might (howerver unlikely) think tiwce about puffing up espcialy on a meaningless possesion. Sad that Artest had to foul hard with a 10 point lead and 50 seconds left, sadder still that Ben had to puff up and go semi-postal when theoutcome of the game was assured.

Totally agreed.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

i want artest now more than ever.... thats exactly what we need on this team, plus his feet can actually leave the ground for a rebound.

i agree, the kings do need a thug on the team. can u imagine the lunatic artest and christie on the wings?

i couldn't imagine what artest would do if rick fox did something like what he did to christie a few yrs ago

 

[Big Cuz 15]

And yes I think Artest should be suspended for the season. Based on this and his past problems.

This IMO is way worse then what Spree did

how is that?
in sprewell's case, it was words that were exchanged.
his coach said something to spree that spree didn't like and he put his hands around the coaches neck.

in artest's defense
some punk disrespected artest by throwing something at him humiliating him in public and artest did the right thing and put the smack down on the punk

2 different scenarios

 

[albeitrue]

End of subject? Oh, I think not.

Ben Wallace needs to know he cannot get away with his actions. I don't know how many games he should be suspended, but I hope they do make an example of him. This type of on-court thuggery has gone on too long, and has done a lot of damage IMHO to the game of basketball.

Irrespective of whatever punishment the league deems fit for Wallace, the Pacers (Artest, O'Neal and Jackson) punishment should also be in the "make an example" category.

Players MUST NOT go after the fans. Period.

In addition, the Auburn Hills police (thanks for the clarification, jacobdrj) will I HOPE "make an example" of the fan who threw the beverage at Artest AND those fans who came onto the court. Fans MUST NOT go on the court after the players. Period.

The whole thing could have been disastrous. The elderly woman who was trampled could have been severely injured. There were children there who may never want to go to another game.

There's enough shame to go around for everyone, including Ben Wallace.

Are you quoting me because I said 'end of subject'? I couldn't tell if you were trying to add to what I said or take away from it, cause I saw very little reference in what you said, to what I said. Ha ha, anyways...

I agree that no player should attack a fan. Players have a different responsibility than fans, they are owned and paid millions of dollars to do what they do. They are human, and don't you agree that they should be adept at using self-restraint, just like any one of us? Yet, they are protected to the fullest extent not only because they are actually 'employees' and have a union, but they are wealthy beyond compare (to most) and seemingly get away with more than they should.

Fans are spectators. Fights (or hard fouls and subsequent retaliation) happen frequently on the court, and so does heckling from the fans, both are givens. However, the fans who assaulted Artest, Jackson and O'Neal should be prosecuted to the fullest extent for assaulting any of the players (not in self defense). EDIT: And vice versa.

 

[HndsmCelt]

how is that?
in sprewell's case, it was words that were exchanged.
his coach said something to spree that spree didn't like and he put his hands around the coaches neck.

in artest's defense
some punk disrespected artest by throwing something at him humiliating him in public and artest did the right thing and put the smack down on the punk

2 different scenarios

Great philsophy to teach children. If you feel disrespcted asault the fool.

 

[Kingaholic]

in artest's defense
some punk disrespected artest by throwing something at him humiliating him in public and artest did the right thing and put the smack down on the punk

Just because someone humiliated him in public gives him the right to charge the stands? It gives him the right to start a riot? It gives him the right to place innocent people (elderly people...children) in danger? I don't think so.

I think that it is just sad and disgraceful for anyone to applaud or "give props" to Artest because he did the "right" thing. (I am not singling you out, KMart23. I mean anyone)

 

[VF21]

Apparently some of you feel it's worth jeopardizing an ENTIRE TEAM's future if a player feels "disrespected"...

That is a total and complete crock.

Artest was humiliated? If he hadn't been sprawled on the scorekeeper table, he wouldn't have been a tartget.

Put the smack down on the punk?

This isn't ghetto street fighting. This is a honorable sport with a distinguished past that is being degraded by the puffed-up egos of some players.

What Artest did is not only going to hurt him, the entire Pacers organization is now looking at an indeterminable number of losses because of the ramifications of his actions. Those losses could well determine whether or not the Pacers are contenders later in the season or could-have-beens.

Basketball is a TEAM sport. If some of these players can't remember that, then maybe they should apply for And1...

 

[Kingaholic]

Apparently some of you feel it's worth jeopardizing an ENTIRE TEAM's future if a player feels "disrespected"...

That is a total and complete crock.

Artest was humiliated? If he hadn't been sprawled on the scorekeeper table, he wouldn't have been a tartget.

Put the smack down on the punk?

This isn't ghetto street fighting. This is a honorable sport with a distinguished past that is being degraded by the puffed-up egos of some players.

What Artest did is not only going to hurt him, the entire Pacers organization is now looking at an indeterminable number of losses because of the ramifications of his actions. Those losses could well determine whether or not the Pacers are contenders later in the season or could-have-beens.

Basketball is a TEAM sport. If some of these players can't remember that, then maybe they should apply for And1...

My thoughts exactly

 

[6th]

My thoughts exactly

Mine too!!

 

[Evenstar]

does anyone have a clip of last nights sportscenter???? i missed it and it wasn't on replay late night after the kings replay at midnight, or the pacers/pistons replay on espn 2 at midnight.

well this will certianly be the talk of next week. thank god, i was getting sick to death of all that crap from that wipe TO and that stupid MNF skit.

 

[VF21]

I think there are some links to clips earlier in the thread...

 

[BigWaxer]

how is that?
in sprewell's case, it was words that were exchanged.
his coach said something to spree that spree didn't like and he put his hands around the coaches neck.

in artest's defense
some punk disrespected artest by throwing something at him humiliating him in public and artest did the right thing and put the smack down on the punk

2 different scenarios

So your telling me what Spree did was worse?

A player that "chokes" his coach during a practice (gets suspended for 68 games)

Or

A player going into the stands, shoving some doods head into chair all of course on a nationaly televised game. Kids crying, an old man was on the floor. Some guy in a suit had a nice gash in his head.

Then of course to top it off you get a nice close-up of Artest tossing his fist in some guys face on the court. Then the grand finale with the running haymaker that O'neal tossed in a guys grill. You have got to be kidding me this is a zillion times worse then what Spree did.

I wouldn't mind seeing all players that were in the stands fighting(except the peace maker sheed) get the entire year off to think about it. What was up with Jackson? He was out of control

Like I said the fans should be punished also. In fact the Pistons are part to blame and they need a nice stiff fine and some sanctions.

There is NO justification for what happened.

 

[Bricklayer]

So your telling me what Spree did was worse?

A player that "chokes" his coach during a practice (gets suspended for 68 games)

Or

A player going into the stands, shoving some doods head into chair all of course on a nationaly televised game. Kids crying, an old man was on the floor. Some guy in a suit had a nice gash in his head.

Then of course to top it off you get a nice close-up of Artest tossing his fist in some guys face on the court. Then the grand finale with the running haymaker that O'neal tossed in a guys grill. You have got to be kidding me this is a zillion times worse then what Spree did.

I wouldn't mind seeing all players that were in the stands fighting(except the peace maker sheed) get the entire year off to think about it. What was up with Jackson? He was out of control

Like I said the fans should be punished also. In fact the Pistons are part to blame and they need a nice stiff fine and some sanctions.

There is NO justification for what happened.

yes what Spree did was worse.

a) it could have been construed as ATTEMPTED MURDER

and

b) it was essentially unprovoked, or at least as unprovoked as something can be coming from P.J. Carlesimo -- every player gets yelled at by his coach.

 

[peja16]

--

 

[Big Cuz 15]

Right.

Plus, if separate the night into individual actions, Artest grabbing someone's face after they threw a beer at him was MUCH less worse than Sprewell choking the life out if his coach.

It's not Artest's fault that the security was so pathetic, that another lunatic fan could grab him from behind and throw two hooks to his head.

Artest then hit some fat morons who came on to the court looking for trouble.

How that can be compared to Sprewell strangling a guy because he yelled at him is ridiculous. Let's not forget PJ is the coach, and that's what coaches do. If there was a problem, he could have spoken to the GM. The fan is some schmuck.

When Artest went into the crowd, he was tauned and pelted by another fan (great job security), which prompted Jackson to clock him, with a beautiful 1-2 jab, straight right. Just gorgeous. That's what made it get out of hand.

you guys are not getting the point i'm trying to get across.

for the ones that argue that artest's actions are worst than sprewells.

they're not as bad as sprewells IMO

sprewell reacted without thinking twice after what carlesimo SAID to him
where as artest had reason for doing what he did (for the ones that don't know... someone hit him w/ a bottle/cup/beer).

 

[cogito ergo sum]

the riot was crazy. it seemed as if the whole city of detriot were in on the match between the pacers vs. pistons. they weren't only harsh on the players, but the coaches and security personnel as well. the altercation between artest and wallace opened a can of worms that have been long over due. this fued was fuled with pride and selfishness. artest's reputation as being a dirty player can't be justified for fouling wallace as hard as he did. but wallace's pride also played a significant role in starting everything. a game that started with supposely good sportsmanship ended up in pure hatred. and the sad part is that this could have been ignored completely with simple control techniques when they catch fire. detroit's sloppy opener as defending champs might have a role. but singling out one to blame is irrational. all the idealists that posted comments about this tragedy is irrational. certain factors aren't accounted for, and there are no basis for their arguments.

 

[VF21]

you guys are not getting the point i'm trying to get across.

for the ones that argue that artest's actions are worst than sprewells.

they're not as bad as sprewells IMO

sprewell reacted without thinking twice after what carlesimo SAID to him
where as artest had reason for doing what he did (for the ones that don't know... someone hit him w/ a bottle/cup/beer).

I know what you're trying to say. IMHO Sprewell should have been kicked out of the league permanently. That was then; this is now.

Artest has a record of running of stupid, and his actions last night just kept him on the top 5 list in that department.

 

[VF21]

all the idealists that posted comments about this tragedy is irrational. certain factors aren't accounted for, and there are no basis for their arguments.

It's a sports message board. It's what we do...

 

[Gargamel]

Cool name, cogito. You don't get Descartes references much on sports boards.

 

[peja16]

--

 

[albeitrue]

It's not Artest's fault that the security was so pathetic, that another lunatic fan could grab him from behind and throw two hooks to his head.

Peja16, tell me you are joking! Security could NOT have seen what was coming, it happened so quickly, everybody now STOP BLAMING SECURITY. That is a lame *** excuse for people (FANS & PLAYERS) behaving badly.

Artest then hit some fat morons who came on to the court looking for trouble.

Tell me you believe those morons who "came on to the court" were looking for trouble!?! They were taunting - something fans for ages have been doing - and working now, because of the melee, down on the court trying to get some attention. They were just standing there and, in my estimation, not looking to be assaulted (unless of course they are sophisticated insurance scam artists--hmm, could be true).

When Artest went into the crowd, he was tauned and pelted by another fan (great job security), which prompted Jackson to clock him, with a beautiful 1-2 jab, straight right. Just gorgeous. That's what made it get out of hand

What made it get out of hand was Artest going there to begin with. What would you, or anybody, have expected? Artest attacks a fan and you expect those around him to 'let it go'? Naw, these are passionate fans down that low in the floor scheme, heh heh heh... and Jackson was not acting in self defense, therefore he is not in much better shape than Atrest, speaking in terms of being in real trouble legally. And professionally. And ultimately, personally. It's a shame when a game goes bad like that, puts a dark cloud over the sport, yuch.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Cool name, cogito. You don't get Descartes references much on sports boards.

Or Latin for that matter

 

[VF21]

Illegitimi non carborundum...

 

[Gargamel]

Quid pro quo, Clarisse...