OFFICIAL trade thread. Post trade proposals HERE! (merged)
- Thread starter CaminoChaos
- Start date
His potential yes. But again, there is a choice to be made this offseason. Brad/Peja/Bibby are not nearly as young as people think they are. If we were to trade up and take a high school kid in the hopes he would become a star, by the time he was ready our current core players would be at the back end of their primes and quite possibly already on the way down. Not saying you don't make that move, but if you do and you are really putting big hope in 18/19 year olds, then you have to look long and hard at whether you want to mismatch them with a bunch of 28/29 year olds who have to win in the next couple of years or not at all.
That would be great for us, but why would they do it?
Realistically, I think there's two possible trade scenarios for Kenny:
(1)Trade him for another bad contract, but hopefully shorter so as not to cripple us for so long.
(2)Trade him with an underpaid player (e.g. Peja) for someone who can really help us.
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Realistically, I think there's two possible trade scenarios for Kenny:
(1)Trade him for another bad contract, but hopefully shorter so as not to cripple us for so long.
(2)Trade him with an underpaid player (e.g. Peja) for someone who can really help us.
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I can see and would LOVE the New Jersey deal, assuming that the #23 was not thrown in. Makes a certain amount of sense -- NJ has absolutely no frontcourt and just about any starting quality guy they get would beat all the garbage they have right now. Kidd/Carter/Jefferson/Thomas/Kristic is a good lineup in the East. No interior defense again, but when you're NJ and just looking to get back to the 50 win plateau that's not as big a deal, and you don't run into the Duncans Amares Dirks KGs etc. until the Finals anyway. So makes sense to a certain degree, although the fact that this is the same ownership who let Kenyon Martin walk because of money concerns (a good decision I thought given his ridiculous contract demands) does make you wonder whether they take on Kenny's contract.
Now the Cleveland deal...why oh why would they do that? And for that matter, why would we given that Gooden is only slightly larger than Kenny + has his own defensive struggles, and is overall only a minor upgrade, and Newble is a very low skill roleplayer that might have a hard time touching the floor for us.
Now the Cleveland deal...why oh why would they do that? And for that matter, why would we given that Gooden is only slightly larger than Kenny + has his own defensive struggles, and is overall only a minor upgrade, and Newble is a very low skill roleplayer that might have a hard time touching the floor for us.
I can see a lot of teams in need of a good SF.
There's Boston for one. They're in need of just about everything really. If Paul Pierce stays, he's a SG though he's played out of position at SF for them before.
Philadelphia has a collection of swing-men, but no outstanding power forward. I doubt they'd want KT back, but he's an upgrade over Rodney Rogers at least.
Toronto definately needs a SF though they may be looking to pick one up in the draft. If they'd rather have a sure thing than a prospect, KT could team up with Chris Bosh. He's not really a post player, even though he was playing PF for us. And Toronto has trouble keeping their players once their contracts are up so they might want a guaranteed five years.
Milwaukee is lacking a real SF too. If they manage to retain Redd and sign Bogut too, their biggest need is at the forward positions. Desmond Mason is a SG and they like him coming off the bench anyway. I think they'd love to have KT.
Washington's biggest weakness is at SF. And they could really use some more rebounding on their front line. I think they might be willing to make a deal for KT.
Dallas seems perpetually lacking in genuine forwards. They've got SGs playing SF and PFs playing center. They've got a center now but they still don't have a SF. Finley isn't approaching the end of his career, so Josh Howard is the future at SG. KT is a good pickup for them because he can play SF or PF which would make him one of the only genuine forwards on the team.
Houston has McGrady and Yao and that's about it. They're desperate for starting forwards. KT would fit in nicely.
New Orleans is rebuilding their roster. KT is a better option at SF than what they have now. And maybe they'd be willing to part with PJ Brown as he's the only aging veteran on the roster. They get prepared for the future, we get a PF.
Minne could use a SF. Even if Szczerbiak stays, he's really a SG not a SF. And they can't expect KG to do all of the rebounding work himself.
Portland wants rid of D Miles and with Rahim probably leaving too, that would leave them without a SF. I don't know who would take Miles off their hands (I would consider it for the Kings), but that's a possibility too.
The Clippers are going to need a SF if Bobby Simmons leaves. Or even if he doesn't, he's SG size. They've already suggested they'd be willing to trade Maggette and slide Bobby over to SG. That would leave them without a SF. Maybe they'll draft one, but if they don't KT could fit there.
Golden State is solid in the guard spots and they're pretty high on Troy Murphy right now at PF. Center is a bigger need for them, but they're not satisfied with their SF options either. Mike Dunleavy doesn't seem to fit too well and Cabarkapa isn't a starter yet.
That's twelve teams with a possible need at SF. I'm sure we could make a deal with one of them.
There's Boston for one. They're in need of just about everything really. If Paul Pierce stays, he's a SG though he's played out of position at SF for them before.
Philadelphia has a collection of swing-men, but no outstanding power forward. I doubt they'd want KT back, but he's an upgrade over Rodney Rogers at least.
Toronto definately needs a SF though they may be looking to pick one up in the draft. If they'd rather have a sure thing than a prospect, KT could team up with Chris Bosh. He's not really a post player, even though he was playing PF for us. And Toronto has trouble keeping their players once their contracts are up so they might want a guaranteed five years.
Milwaukee is lacking a real SF too. If they manage to retain Redd and sign Bogut too, their biggest need is at the forward positions. Desmond Mason is a SG and they like him coming off the bench anyway. I think they'd love to have KT.
Washington's biggest weakness is at SF. And they could really use some more rebounding on their front line. I think they might be willing to make a deal for KT.
Dallas seems perpetually lacking in genuine forwards. They've got SGs playing SF and PFs playing center. They've got a center now but they still don't have a SF. Finley isn't approaching the end of his career, so Josh Howard is the future at SG. KT is a good pickup for them because he can play SF or PF which would make him one of the only genuine forwards on the team.
Houston has McGrady and Yao and that's about it. They're desperate for starting forwards. KT would fit in nicely.
New Orleans is rebuilding their roster. KT is a better option at SF than what they have now. And maybe they'd be willing to part with PJ Brown as he's the only aging veteran on the roster. They get prepared for the future, we get a PF.
Minne could use a SF. Even if Szczerbiak stays, he's really a SG not a SF. And they can't expect KG to do all of the rebounding work himself.
Portland wants rid of D Miles and with Rahim probably leaving too, that would leave them without a SF. I don't know who would take Miles off their hands (I would consider it for the Kings), but that's a possibility too.
The Clippers are going to need a SF if Bobby Simmons leaves. Or even if he doesn't, he's SG size. They've already suggested they'd be willing to trade Maggette and slide Bobby over to SG. That would leave them without a SF. Maybe they'll draft one, but if they don't KT could fit there.
Golden State is solid in the guard spots and they're pretty high on Troy Murphy right now at PF. Center is a bigger need for them, but they're not satisfied with their SF options either. Mike Dunleavy doesn't seem to fit too well and Cabarkapa isn't a starter yet.
That's twelve teams with a possible need at SF. I'm sure we could make a deal with one of them.
You are assuming any of those teams look at KT as a SF, which I think is doubtful. If we moved Peja I think it would be an interesting experiment, and because he's so undersized KT's always been called a tweener. But I don't think he's had any extended stretch in his now 6(?) year career where he played the SF position, and of course he was a big in college. Interesting idea if you're trying to figure out what to do with him on your own team, much harder sell to try to convince other teams that he's their man for the position with nop track record at all for them to go on.
As an aside, regarding Dallas -- I have no idea where this thing about them not having forwards comes from, but they were incredibly OVERLOADED with forwards last year, it hurt them, so they got smart and traded them all away. And now this year they went out and grabbed Van Horn to go with Dirk, Howard is a natural SF etc. Cuban is always on the lookout for overpaid tweeners, but they certainly have no need of a KT, and with Don Nelson out they may not be nearly as interested in small ball as they once were.
As an aside, regarding Dallas -- I have no idea where this thing about them not having forwards comes from, but they were incredibly OVERLOADED with forwards last year, it hurt them, so they got smart and traded them all away. And now this year they went out and grabbed Van Horn to go with Dirk, Howard is a natural SF etc. Cuban is always on the lookout for overpaid tweeners, but they certainly have no need of a KT, and with Don Nelson out they may not be nearly as interested in small ball as they once were.
Yeah but Van Horn isn't sticking around. It's true they were overloaded with forwards last year, but they traded tham all away. And I don't think it really hurt them. What hurt them was having Antoine Walker taking all of the shots that should have gone to Dirk, Nash, and Finley. And that's going to be a problem with the self-professed "volume shooter" wherever he goes. Jamison was great there. They traded him to get a draft pick which hasn't really looked good so far, but that's what happens when you draft a high school guy. Maybe they were hoping to get Shaq? Devin Harris may work out for them though.
A high school guy? Are you confusing Devin Harris with Shaun Livingston?
Harris was a junior at Wisconsin when he declared and I believe he started all three years. Livingston is the 6'7" high school point who the Clips took a spot before Harris and lost most of the season with knee and shoulder injuries.
From what little I've seen of Livingston, I think he will be the real deal. He has more than enough athleticism and has special court vision and a real feel for the game. He just needs to put on some muscle and work on his outside shot.
Harris is another matter. He seems to have all the physical tools in the world, but something doesn't seem to click. Part of it is that he is more of a shoot-first PG than a distributor on a team where they needed a replacement for Steve Nash, but there's more to it than that.
I'm not saying he won't be a decent or even a good player, but for a 22 year old kid who was proclaimed as the most NBA ready point in the draft, he didn't have an overwhelmingly positive rookie year. Losing his starting spot only a month into the season can't have helped his confidence or his development.
I think Cuban really thought his odds of getting Shaq were much higher than they really were. Otherwise why does a team with playoff (and perhaps championship) aspirations draft a rookie PG with a top 5 pick. It is tough to really develop that kind of talent while putting the emphasis on winning right now. Just ask Darko Milicic.
Harris was a junior at Wisconsin when he declared and I believe he started all three years. Livingston is the 6'7" high school point who the Clips took a spot before Harris and lost most of the season with knee and shoulder injuries.
From what little I've seen of Livingston, I think he will be the real deal. He has more than enough athleticism and has special court vision and a real feel for the game. He just needs to put on some muscle and work on his outside shot.
Harris is another matter. He seems to have all the physical tools in the world, but something doesn't seem to click. Part of it is that he is more of a shoot-first PG than a distributor on a team where they needed a replacement for Steve Nash, but there's more to it than that.
I'm not saying he won't be a decent or even a good player, but for a 22 year old kid who was proclaimed as the most NBA ready point in the draft, he didn't have an overwhelmingly positive rookie year. Losing his starting spot only a month into the season can't have helped his confidence or his development.
I think Cuban really thought his odds of getting Shaq were much higher than they really were. Otherwise why does a team with playoff (and perhaps championship) aspirations draft a rookie PG with a top 5 pick. It is tough to really develop that kind of talent while putting the emphasis on winning right now. Just ask Darko Milicic.
Philadelphia has a power foward that we traded to them, Chris Webber does that name ring a bell. I don't think they are gonna bench a guy making all that money, plus C-Webb still can play even on one leg. You can count them out, and Washington has Jamison to play the SF for them. He can play the PF but he is more of a wing player and his best position is SF, which means they would need a 4.
Yeah I thought Devin Harris was a high schooler. I guess just because he looks really young and skinny. And he didn't look very experienced the few times I saw him play, but then neither did Kevin Martin so I guess that's a common rookie problem.
And yeah, I know who Chris Webber is, thanks. I was listing teams which need a SF not a PF because I think that's where Kenny Thomas' value is. And Jamison can play either forward position. I don't know what the fascination is with big men who can shoot. If you're undersized already (which Washington is) why do you want one of your few big men hanging out around the perimeter? I'd play him at PF and let him take the shot if he's got it, but I primarily want him close to the basket. But whatever, take those two teams off the list if you want. There's still a lot of teams which may have an interest.
And yeah, I know who Chris Webber is, thanks. I was listing teams which need a SF not a PF because I think that's where Kenny Thomas' value is. And Jamison can play either forward position. I don't know what the fascination is with big men who can shoot. If you're undersized already (which Washington is) why do you want one of your few big men hanging out around the perimeter? I'd play him at PF and let him take the shot if he's got it, but I primarily want him close to the basket. But whatever, take those two teams off the list if you want. There's still a lot of teams which may have an interest.
Al Jefferson is their PF of the future and they have Pierce and Davis on the wings. MAYBE they'd want Thomas for depth, but who would they send back? Raef LaFrentz? A signed-and-traded Walker or Payton? No thanks.
They have Webber. For better or worse, he's their PF for the next 3 years and $60 million. Add that to Iverson's salary, and the young players they are going to have to pony up dough for this offseason such as Dalembert, Green and Korver if they want to keep them and you have a team that is WAY over the cap without adding the considerable salary of a player they just traded away. And once again, who would they even send back to the Kings? Aaron McKie?
The Raptors are building around Bosh. And if that's my goal, I am looking for shooting or an enforcer in the post. KT is neither of those things, plus he would potentially be a big liability defensively if he has to move to the 3. And again, what would the Kings want from the Raptors anyway? Peterson and Marshall are free agents (I think) and other than an overpriced Jalen Rose and unwanted PGs (Williams, Alston) what do they have that they are willing to trade that is worth anything?
They might want Thomas, but I only see a deal working if they want him enough to deal Desmond Mason and I definitely can't see that. The ONLY way that happens is if the Bucks draft Marvin Williams and see Mason as expendable. If they draft Bogut, they will still need to start Mason. Outside of Desmond, the Bucks don't have anything I want, unless you have a higher opinion of Joe Smith than I do.
I guess this depends on whether the Wizards think Thomas is an upgrade over Jeffries and/or Hayes. Personally, I think if Hayes comes back healthy, he is a better option because of his outside shooting. The problem with the Wizards as an option is that it would mean pairing Thomas with Jamison. These two are just too similar in their game to make a good starting forward tandem. Both are tweeners with decent jumpers who rely on quickness and rebounding to get by.
I'd be willing to make a deal for Etan Thomas (he'd provide some of the toughness and rebounding the Kings need) , but I don't know why the Wizards would do it. The best bet for a Wizards deal might be a sign-and-trade for Kwame Brown. That's a big gamble. Even if the Wizards were willing to make the trade, would Petrie risk it? Maybe.
For who? Jerry Stackhouse? Tariq Abdul-Wahad? I don't think so. From either side.
Again, for who? Clarence Weatherspoon? Otherwise the Rockets have no need. They have Juwon Howard entrenched as the starter and really could only use Kenny Thomas as a backup to he and McGrady. If it is for Weatherspoon (ending contract) and their draft pick I say sign me up. If not, I don't see a deal that makes sense.
Not a bad idea except that PJ Brown makes a little too much to be traded straight up for KT. The only piece the Kings have that would easily balance the salaries is Kevin Martin and I don't want to see the kid traded, especially not for a player nearing retirement when we haven't seen what Martin can become. Also, why would a team looking to rebuild want to pay the price tag on a 28 year old forward for five more years.
I think the Wolves like what Griffin provides and how he plays alongside Garnett. Maybe if they can't resign him they would have some interest in Thomas. What could the Kings get? They could deal him straight up for Cassell, but I don't see the point. Any other deals would require multiple players to pull off. Besides, outside of Garnett (and possibly Hassell if the price was right) I don't see any players on Minny's roster that I would want.
Can you package a signed-and-traded player in a deal? If so, maybe Portland would be interested in a Mobley and Thomas combo for Nick Van Exel. NVE has a clause in his contract where he and his salary can be waived, so in effect this deal would only provide salary relief for the Kings while giving the Blazers a new starting SG and depth at forward. Not too enticing unless the Kings really want to move Thomas and have no other takers.
A couple straight up deals with the Blazers would include KT for Ruben Patterson or Darius Miles (although right now Miles is a base year compensation player so the deal would have to wait) neither of which appeal to me. There have been whisperings of Thomas' failings as a teammate but nothing compared to the antics of those two knuckleheads. Plus Miles seems too stupid and/or stubborn to pick up the Kings offense anyway.
So who do the Kings get? Corey Magette? Petrie would be arrested for grand larceny. I don't see another deal that comes close to working. Plus I can't see the notorious skinflint Sterling doling out cash for a backup tweener forward.
A team that desperately needs outside shooting trading for Kenny Thomas to play small forward? I don't think so. Plus, I don't see what the Kings could get. A combination including Tsitishvili? Derek Fisher?
I certainly don't see twelve teams. MAYBE one or two. Plus I do think the Nets could have some interest. The bottom line? It is much harder to deal a player than to just think of teams that might want him. Unless Petrie is thinking of making large scale moves or if he is willing to deal Thomas for bargain basement prices, I think it's a decent bet that KT is a King to start next season.
They have Webber. For better or worse, he's their PF for the next 3 years and $60 million. Add that to Iverson's salary, and the young players they are going to have to pony up dough for this offseason such as Dalembert, Green and Korver if they want to keep them and you have a team that is WAY over the cap without adding the considerable salary of a player they just traded away. And once again, who would they even send back to the Kings? Aaron McKie?
The Raptors are building around Bosh. And if that's my goal, I am looking for shooting or an enforcer in the post. KT is neither of those things, plus he would potentially be a big liability defensively if he has to move to the 3. And again, what would the Kings want from the Raptors anyway? Peterson and Marshall are free agents (I think) and other than an overpriced Jalen Rose and unwanted PGs (Williams, Alston) what do they have that they are willing to trade that is worth anything?
They might want Thomas, but I only see a deal working if they want him enough to deal Desmond Mason and I definitely can't see that. The ONLY way that happens is if the Bucks draft Marvin Williams and see Mason as expendable. If they draft Bogut, they will still need to start Mason. Outside of Desmond, the Bucks don't have anything I want, unless you have a higher opinion of Joe Smith than I do.
I guess this depends on whether the Wizards think Thomas is an upgrade over Jeffries and/or Hayes. Personally, I think if Hayes comes back healthy, he is a better option because of his outside shooting. The problem with the Wizards as an option is that it would mean pairing Thomas with Jamison. These two are just too similar in their game to make a good starting forward tandem. Both are tweeners with decent jumpers who rely on quickness and rebounding to get by.
I'd be willing to make a deal for Etan Thomas (he'd provide some of the toughness and rebounding the Kings need) , but I don't know why the Wizards would do it. The best bet for a Wizards deal might be a sign-and-trade for Kwame Brown. That's a big gamble. Even if the Wizards were willing to make the trade, would Petrie risk it? Maybe.
For who? Jerry Stackhouse? Tariq Abdul-Wahad? I don't think so. From either side.
Again, for who? Clarence Weatherspoon? Otherwise the Rockets have no need. They have Juwon Howard entrenched as the starter and really could only use Kenny Thomas as a backup to he and McGrady. If it is for Weatherspoon (ending contract) and their draft pick I say sign me up. If not, I don't see a deal that makes sense.
Not a bad idea except that PJ Brown makes a little too much to be traded straight up for KT. The only piece the Kings have that would easily balance the salaries is Kevin Martin and I don't want to see the kid traded, especially not for a player nearing retirement when we haven't seen what Martin can become. Also, why would a team looking to rebuild want to pay the price tag on a 28 year old forward for five more years.
I think the Wolves like what Griffin provides and how he plays alongside Garnett. Maybe if they can't resign him they would have some interest in Thomas. What could the Kings get? They could deal him straight up for Cassell, but I don't see the point. Any other deals would require multiple players to pull off. Besides, outside of Garnett (and possibly Hassell if the price was right) I don't see any players on Minny's roster that I would want.
Can you package a signed-and-traded player in a deal? If so, maybe Portland would be interested in a Mobley and Thomas combo for Nick Van Exel. NVE has a clause in his contract where he and his salary can be waived, so in effect this deal would only provide salary relief for the Kings while giving the Blazers a new starting SG and depth at forward. Not too enticing unless the Kings really want to move Thomas and have no other takers.
A couple straight up deals with the Blazers would include KT for Ruben Patterson or Darius Miles (although right now Miles is a base year compensation player so the deal would have to wait) neither of which appeal to me. There have been whisperings of Thomas' failings as a teammate but nothing compared to the antics of those two knuckleheads. Plus Miles seems too stupid and/or stubborn to pick up the Kings offense anyway.
So who do the Kings get? Corey Magette? Petrie would be arrested for grand larceny. I don't see another deal that comes close to working. Plus I can't see the notorious skinflint Sterling doling out cash for a backup tweener forward.
A team that desperately needs outside shooting trading for Kenny Thomas to play small forward? I don't think so. Plus, I don't see what the Kings could get. A combination including Tsitishvili? Derek Fisher?
I certainly don't see twelve teams. MAYBE one or two. Plus I do think the Nets could have some interest. The bottom line? It is much harder to deal a player than to just think of teams that might want him. Unless Petrie is thinking of making large scale moves or if he is willing to deal Thomas for bargain basement prices, I think it's a decent bet that KT is a King to start next season.
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Bricklayer stated his case, but I continue to disagree with him on that point. Okay he's not proven as a starting SF, but he is proven as a starting PF. Put him on the court and he'll get you a double-double. Maybe not a dominating double-double, but there aren't that many guys in the league who average double digit rebounds so that's significant. What difference does it make if you call him a SF or a PF? I think there's a general consensus across the league that you start your two best forwards, whether they are of optimum size or not. He's clearly undersized for PF, so doesn't it make sense to pair him with a bigger forward? And the guy can shoot. He's not a three-point threat, but he's got a very consistent jump shot. I think he scored more of his points off that jump shot for us than off of layups or dunks. Isn't that what a SF does? That's actually the very reason he's not a good fit. We need a post-player, and Kenny Thomas has not been that for us.
funkykingston, I'm not going to go through all of your points because this is all just speculation anyway. It seems to me, at least in your first repsonses, that you're thinking of KT as a PF and as I specifically stated, I was looking for teams with a need at SF not PF. I just explained why. Clearly that's up for debate, but like I said, this is all just speculation anyway. And I'm not all that concerned about who we can get for KT, because I don't think he's that valuable for this team. If we could get Eric Williams and a throw-in from Toronto for example, maybe a draft pick, I think that's a good deal. I think it's a good deal because KT is not the PF of the future for the Kings, so why should we invest time into him? We're better off moving him now than keeping him around for a few years while his salary escalates and his value decreases. The ideal goal is to bring in a full team next year, not half a team. Some quality role players to fill out the roster are what we should be looking for in trades, not another all-star. How many teams have four all-stars anyway? Not Detroit or San Antonio. Those teams have three stars and a bunch of role players. We have the stars, we just need the role players. The right role players. Forget about Chris Webber, he's gone. We didn't find a way to replace him with another all star, so now we've just got to move forward with what we do have. Which is still pretty damn good.
funkykingston, I'm not going to go through all of your points because this is all just speculation anyway. It seems to me, at least in your first repsonses, that you're thinking of KT as a PF and as I specifically stated, I was looking for teams with a need at SF not PF. I just explained why. Clearly that's up for debate, but like I said, this is all just speculation anyway. And I'm not all that concerned about who we can get for KT, because I don't think he's that valuable for this team. If we could get Eric Williams and a throw-in from Toronto for example, maybe a draft pick, I think that's a good deal. I think it's a good deal because KT is not the PF of the future for the Kings, so why should we invest time into him? We're better off moving him now than keeping him around for a few years while his salary escalates and his value decreases. The ideal goal is to bring in a full team next year, not half a team. Some quality role players to fill out the roster are what we should be looking for in trades, not another all-star. How many teams have four all-stars anyway? Not Detroit or San Antonio. Those teams have three stars and a bunch of role players. We have the stars, we just need the role players. The right role players. Forget about Chris Webber, he's gone. We didn't find a way to replace him with another all star, so now we've just got to move forward with what we do have. Which is still pretty damn good.
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You can argue that KT is a small forward or a linebacker. But neither is true. He is a power forward. That's what he's listed as and that's what he's played. He is NOT the type of PF we need, which has been my point all along - and which it appears you agree with, at least in concept.
funky has made some excellent points about moving KT to other teams, including what we could expect to get in return. If you're not concerned about what we get for him, we have basic conceptual differences. We got rid of Webber so we'd have more mobility in moving three smaller contracts instead of Webber's huge contract. KT is one of those three pieces AND the one player I think we need to move the most. AND, from what not only I but others think, he's possibly the most difficult to move because few teams need a player who is an undersized PF...
funky has made some excellent points about moving KT to other teams, including what we could expect to get in return. If you're not concerned about what we get for him, we have basic conceptual differences. We got rid of Webber so we'd have more mobility in moving three smaller contracts instead of Webber's huge contract. KT is one of those three pieces AND the one player I think we need to move the most. AND, from what not only I but others think, he's possibly the most difficult to move because few teams need a player who is an undersized PF...
Kenny Thomas is like a poor man's Webber in more ways than one. First, he's a power forward who primarily scores with an elbow jumper but also rebounds.
But more than that, he's also a guy whose contract makes him hard to move. Thomas' deal is smaller, but it's a couple years longer and he's a great deal less talented.
Finally, Kenny Thomas is a guy who is more valuable to the team he plays for than what he could net in a trade. KT can provide scoring, rebounding and hustle but there's not a single team in the league that looks at their roster and says, "you know who we could really use? Kenny Thomas."
Calling him a small forward as opposed to the power forward he's been his whole career won't change that fact.
So what does Petrie do? I think he could probably move him if he didn't care what kind of garbage he got in return, but what's the point of that?
Thomas isn't the low post threat the Kings need. Shipping him out for next to nothing doesn't get the Kings any closer to that goal. It isn't like the Kings have any chance of opening up any real caproom. Mike, Brad and Peja eat up 2/3 of the cap as it is. Now, if by dealing him the Maloofs are more willing to open up their collective wallet to match offers for Darius and offer part of the MLE for Mo, then OK, I understand.
Now in that vein, dealing him for an ending contract and a mid to late 1st round pick would be ideal. Call up New Jersey for Uncle Cliffy and the 15th pick as mentioned in the other thread.
But more than that, he's also a guy whose contract makes him hard to move. Thomas' deal is smaller, but it's a couple years longer and he's a great deal less talented.
Finally, Kenny Thomas is a guy who is more valuable to the team he plays for than what he could net in a trade. KT can provide scoring, rebounding and hustle but there's not a single team in the league that looks at their roster and says, "you know who we could really use? Kenny Thomas."
Calling him a small forward as opposed to the power forward he's been his whole career won't change that fact.
So what does Petrie do? I think he could probably move him if he didn't care what kind of garbage he got in return, but what's the point of that?
Thomas isn't the low post threat the Kings need. Shipping him out for next to nothing doesn't get the Kings any closer to that goal. It isn't like the Kings have any chance of opening up any real caproom. Mike, Brad and Peja eat up 2/3 of the cap as it is. Now, if by dealing him the Maloofs are more willing to open up their collective wallet to match offers for Darius and offer part of the MLE for Mo, then OK, I understand.
Now in that vein, dealing him for an ending contract and a mid to late 1st round pick would be ideal. Call up New Jersey for Uncle Cliffy and the 15th pick as mentioned in the other thread.
Yeah but players play out of position all the time. Maybe it says PF next to his name, but it could just as easily say SF/PF. It also says 6'10" next to Peja's name on the King's website, that doesn't make it fact. I think 6'8" is already undersized for a PF. 6'7" is way undersized. I think if you put him on a team with a legitimate power forward, he would start as a SF. Philly played him at PF because they didn't have one. And we did the same. The most important thing for a SF to have is a consistent jump shot. And he has that so I don't think it's a huge stretch to call him a SF.
While I agree that most of those teams don't really have the pieces we want or the matching salaries, there would definately be some interest in Kenny Thomas if the price is right. He's a starter with some marketable skills. Obviously we can't expect to get a major impact player in return, but that's the position this team is in now. When the Webber trade happens the Kings got some more flexibility with medium-sized contracts but they lost the trade value of an all-star. There's positives and negatives about that trade. But I think it's unrealistic at this point to hold whoever we get for Kenny Thomas or Brian Skinner or Corliss Williamson in comparison to Chris Webber. That ship has sailed. So compare them to what we are losing instead. With Kenny Thomas, I don't think we're losing very much whoever we trade him for. But another team with different needs than us could still have something to gain by picking him up. If that makes any sense.
And I think the main benefit of trading KT is that whoever we brought in to play PF (through the draft or a trade) would actually get playing time. Which is why I think it's so important that we trade him. If we bring in a rookie PF, KT still starts over them. I'd rather it was the other way around.
While I agree that most of those teams don't really have the pieces we want or the matching salaries, there would definately be some interest in Kenny Thomas if the price is right. He's a starter with some marketable skills. Obviously we can't expect to get a major impact player in return, but that's the position this team is in now. When the Webber trade happens the Kings got some more flexibility with medium-sized contracts but they lost the trade value of an all-star. There's positives and negatives about that trade. But I think it's unrealistic at this point to hold whoever we get for Kenny Thomas or Brian Skinner or Corliss Williamson in comparison to Chris Webber. That ship has sailed. So compare them to what we are losing instead. With Kenny Thomas, I don't think we're losing very much whoever we trade him for. But another team with different needs than us could still have something to gain by picking him up. If that makes any sense.
And I think the main benefit of trading KT is that whoever we brought in to play PF (through the draft or a trade) would actually get playing time. Which is why I think it's so important that we trade him. If we bring in a rookie PF, KT still starts over them. I'd rather it was the other way around.
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Oh wait a minute...I didn't notice that we got the #15 along with him. I think I would pull the trigger on this deal then. At #15 we would have more of a choice of who we wanted to draft, possibly at the PF position. May, Simien, Taft, Petro, etc. could all still be there at that point.
The other part of the deal is that Cliff gets placed on the IR though. He is horrible.
The other part of the deal is that Cliff gets placed on the IR though. He is horrible.
You're missing the real points of the trade: 1) unloading a very tough contract to move and getting cap room next year; and 2) getting another #1 pick this year in a very deep draft. Robinson is just the means to those ends. Still a pretty good defender though, so might be able to play a minor role in the interim. But not making the trade to get him at all.
Edit -- we simulposted.
Edit -- we simulposted.
Philly had 6'10 players Josh Davis, Marc Jackson and Brian Skinner (The year before he started at PF for the Bucks). Marc Jackson and Skinner are legitimate bigs and Kenny still ended up starting over them at the 4.
In Houston Kenny played PF with Eddie Griffin at the 3. The only year Kenny started at SF was for a stretch of about 20 games during the 02 season when the 76ers were desperate (They did not have Iggy or Korver yet). It was either him or Greg Buckner and Mckie was subing in for both guard positions. A situation like that would be rare.
Height shouldn't be an issue. You have skills to play the position, you play it. It didn't stop players from the spectrum of Brandon Hunter to Charles Barkley from playing the 4.
If a consistant jump shot is what you think a SF needs then Darius (who was more consistant and has less of a post game) should have more time at the 3.
In Houston Kenny played PF with Eddie Griffin at the 3. The only year Kenny started at SF was for a stretch of about 20 games during the 02 season when the 76ers were desperate (They did not have Iggy or Korver yet). It was either him or Greg Buckner and Mckie was subing in for both guard positions. A situation like that would be rare.
Height shouldn't be an issue. You have skills to play the position, you play it. It didn't stop players from the spectrum of Brandon Hunter to Charles Barkley from playing the 4.
If a consistant jump shot is what you think a SF needs then Darius (who was more consistant and has less of a post game) should have more time at the 3.
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Mad D,
Agreed with your whole post up until the last line. Darius establishes better position down low and has better size and craftiness to score from down low than Thomas.
Now, I understand that being the best post player on the Kings is akin to being the best bullfighter in Ohio, but I had to stick up for my guy.
Agreed with your whole post up until the last line. Darius establishes better position down low and has better size and craftiness to score from down low than Thomas.
Now, I understand that being the best post player on the Kings is akin to being the best bullfighter in Ohio, but I had to stick up for my guy.
True, Darius has some nice post moves. Unforutunately he doesn't have the hops, and thus he doesn't finish as good as you'd like.
I remember seeing him with his back to the basket, putting a pretty move on Duncan. He didn't finish, but it was pretty.
Kenny and Darius' are very similar, but Thomas is the more athletic leaper, while Darius is the more crafty back to the basket player.
I remember seeing him with his back to the basket, putting a pretty move on Duncan. He didn't finish, but it was pretty.
Kenny and Darius' are very similar, but Thomas is the more athletic leaper, while Darius is the more crafty back to the basket player.
Frankly, I think Kenny's most valuable as a backup 4 while playing maybe 5-10 min at the 3 for certain matchups. As a 25-30min 6th man he can put up 13/7 which I think could help a lot of clubs. He's too slow to play the 3 full time and you'd need someone like Hakeem or Garnett manning the 5 if he's going to be a championship 4. I also don't think he's overpaid if he's going to be a 30min bench player.
I think tweeners make natural bench players because they're more versatile. I'd love to see a decent starting 5 with a 3 man bench, one to play 1/2, another to play 3/4, and another to play 4/5. This way everyone gets minutes. It's insanely hard to create this type of team though, it more or less has to fall into your lap. The Kings actually had this lineup a few years ago, but they had too much depth so decent players weren't playing.
I think tweeners make natural bench players because they're more versatile. I'd love to see a decent starting 5 with a 3 man bench, one to play 1/2, another to play 3/4, and another to play 4/5. This way everyone gets minutes. It's insanely hard to create this type of team though, it more or less has to fall into your lap. The Kings actually had this lineup a few years ago, but they had too much depth so decent players weren't playing.