OFFICIAL trade thread. Post trade proposals HERE! (merged)
- Thread starter CaminoChaos
- Start date
And there, IMHO, lies the problem/question... KT feels very strongly (from what I've seen and heard) about being a starter. He doesn't think he should come off the bench. Quite frankly, I think it would take someone like Pop - whose team doesn't need someone like KT - to convince him his worth might lie in becoming a valuable role player and not the star he (KT) apparently envisions himself.
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Those comments, BTW, are primarily based on impressions I've gathered watching KT during the short time he's been with the Kings.
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Those comments, BTW, are primarily based on impressions I've gathered watching KT during the short time he's been with the Kings.
Actually, as I recall he DID specifically say he wasn't happy not starting at that time. Which would fit what I know of him. But I don't think its so much him thinking he's a star as him having a major chip on his shoulder about being too small etc. and wanting to show them all and interpreting coming off the bench as a diss. Difficult to deal with.
We'll yeah, but traditional good Adelman teams have 6th-7th-8th that all get similar minutes. Like the Bobby/Hedo/Pollard or the Bobby/JJ/Keon rotations of old. Now, I could see us potentially witha Bobby/Kenny/Skinner or a Bobby/Corliss/Skinner, but of course unless the PF is a Webber and the SG is a Christie, we've lost a whole lot of talent.
Problem with that would be that I have no interest in Al Harrington as a PF, which he would apparently be in that scenario. No rebounding. No shotblocking (again). Tweener (again). If we get a guy like him, I want him at SF. I am sick to death of being pussies in the paint and watching teams stacked with players who dominate the interior go to the Finals year after year after year. Now if we did something with Peja and then managed to steal Harrington out of Atlanta to replace him or something, that would be interesting. But he's not a PF on a good team anymore than Kenny is.
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On our way? Yep. Right into the lottery.
Of all the people on our team, I have to believe Mike Bibby is the closest thing to "untouchable" we have right now. He's the only one I would consider clutch, he's the only one who has shown time after time he's willing and able to put the team on his back and carry them, AND he's the only one currently willing to accept the mantle of leadership.
Of all the people on our team, I have to believe Mike Bibby is the closest thing to "untouchable" we have right now. He's the only one I would consider clutch, he's the only one who has shown time after time he's willing and able to put the team on his back and carry them, AND he's the only one currently willing to accept the mantle of leadership.
I agree that Mike is a great player and it would be tough to give him up...BUT, you must give quality to receive quality and , I believe, Mike's points scored vs points allowed ratio and large salary make him expendable for a borderline superstar that year in and year out is at the top of the league in FTA's because of his great driving ability. Yes, I know Pierce has the rep for being a ball hog, but look at all of the shots CWebb took and it didn't seem to bother anyone. Is it just an accident that every PG in the league seems to have career nights against us? And, the best leadership I've observed in my 57 years is from those who not only talk the talk but walk the walk...leading by example and Mike doesn't in the area of defense. Now, if we could acquire a bonafide shot blocker to let Mike funnel his man to then I'd probably change my mind but the bottom line is this team HAS to start playing some defense or we're just going to be first round and out of the playoffs for the forseeable future.
Actually, I was alluding to Peja when I said "we're on our way"...because if we wait to trade him last we could be trading from a position of strength and really get the best possible deal for him. Earlier, I'd envisioned him for Artest but the last I heard on him was that the Pacers were going to give him another shot...or maybe just posturing but with his rep I would think a lot of teams would be reluctant to trade for him with the Pacers thinking of his last on court value (which was considerable) vs his off court (and in the stands) value...like, will he quit basketball in the middle of the season/contract to go record a rap album? Tough decision and huge gamble but I think we've all come to the conclusion that we've seen the best part of Peja's game and his upside is marginal while Artest could be a man possesed to change his image or just another flake.
I don't want any part of Paul Pierce. Especially if he would be playing WITH Peja. He just needs way too many shots and even after seven years in the league, he still shows horrible shot selection.
Plus, why does Boston make this deal? If Ainge is really going to let Payton and Walker walk, then he is looking toward the future. If that's the case, tell me why trading for Bibby is a better deal than developing Delonte West at the point and dealing Piece for NVE ($10 mil in caproom) and the 3rd pick in the draft.
If Petrie has thought about dealing Bibby, it needs to be part of a larger plan to completely blow up the team and start over. I think you could deal Peja as part of a retooling, but dealing an all-star caliber PG in his prime is not a minor change. Especially when he is also the teams only go-to-guy.
Plus, why does Boston make this deal? If Ainge is really going to let Payton and Walker walk, then he is looking toward the future. If that's the case, tell me why trading for Bibby is a better deal than developing Delonte West at the point and dealing Piece for NVE ($10 mil in caproom) and the 3rd pick in the draft.
If Petrie has thought about dealing Bibby, it needs to be part of a larger plan to completely blow up the team and start over. I think you could deal Peja as part of a retooling, but dealing an all-star caliber PG in his prime is not a minor change. Especially when he is also the teams only go-to-guy.
Good points, Funky, especially about Ainge's motivations and perhaps the Portland deal would appeal to him more. I also agree that Pierce, on the Celtics, takes too many shots, ill advised or not. But on a team full of shooters he wouldn't feel so pressured to score as he does now and, in my mind, Peja would be traded for something more valuable, size/depth. This team can play well with, perhaps one or two of our "nucleus" on the floor but not all three using matador defense.
Here is a Pierce deal Ainge might not be able to pass up (but we might) -- works financially I think:
Pierce
LaFrentz
for
Peja
Bobby
Tag
Thomas
the reasoning? 3 of the 4 guys we trade effectively have expiring contracts at the end of next season, and Boston moves its too biggest long term contracts. Combined with the Walker and Payton exits, gives Boston complete cap freedom next offseason, and in the meantime Bobby can fill in at point for one more year while the kids mature, KT can go at PF back in the Atlantic division until Jefferson is ready, Peja gets to invoke Bird comparisons etc. KTs got the bad contract, but its smaller than either Pierce's or Raef's, so if rebuilding is the idea... (Corliss might also work and has a shorter deal). then next season they can bring back Peja and Bobby (and Tag
) or just let them walk and be so far under the cap they can sign 2 big free agents.
Meanwhile, we get a more versatile #1 option with a post game and the ability to create for others, and while Raef is one of those guys we have always made fun of, he blocks shots, has good size, and might do well in our system with his shooting. Not a tough guy, but maybe a pretty good 6'11" frontcourt reserve (or even big starting PF) for us.
Pierce
LaFrentz
for
Peja
Bobby
Tag
Thomas
the reasoning? 3 of the 4 guys we trade effectively have expiring contracts at the end of next season, and Boston moves its too biggest long term contracts. Combined with the Walker and Payton exits, gives Boston complete cap freedom next offseason, and in the meantime Bobby can fill in at point for one more year while the kids mature, KT can go at PF back in the Atlantic division until Jefferson is ready, Peja gets to invoke Bird comparisons etc. KTs got the bad contract, but its smaller than either Pierce's or Raef's, so if rebuilding is the idea... (Corliss might also work and has a shorter deal). then next season they can bring back Peja and Bobby (and Tag
) or just let them walk and be so far under the cap they can sign 2 big free agents.Meanwhile, we get a more versatile #1 option with a post game and the ability to create for others, and while Raef is one of those guys we have always made fun of, he blocks shots, has good size, and might do well in our system with his shooting. Not a tough guy, but maybe a pretty good 6'11" frontcourt reserve (or even big starting PF) for us.
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Actually, let's go ahead and flesh that out into best case scenario -- assume that Corliss is more appealing to Boston than KT because of the shorter contract (2 more years). So make him the 4th in the deal.
Then do the Mobley for Nene/Lenard deal.
Then do that interesting KT for Cliff Robinson & #15 deal.
I think those are minor stretches, but nothing out of the realm of possibility.
You get a returning lineup of:
C- Brad
PF- Nene
SF- ?
OG - Pierce (I like him more there)
PG- Bibby
PF/C -- LaFrentz
PF/C -- Skinner
OG -- Martin
OG -- Lenard
SF/PF/C -- Robinson
#15 pick
#23 pick
the MLE
etc. etc. Try to bring back Mo. Not mindblowing, but a real interesting looking team with some serious potential.
Then do the Mobley for Nene/Lenard deal.
Then do that interesting KT for Cliff Robinson & #15 deal.
I think those are minor stretches, but nothing out of the realm of possibility.
You get a returning lineup of:
C- Brad
PF- Nene
SF- ?
OG - Pierce (I like him more there)
PG- Bibby
PF/C -- LaFrentz
PF/C -- Skinner
OG -- Martin
OG -- Lenard
SF/PF/C -- Robinson
#15 pick
#23 pick
the MLE
etc. etc. Try to bring back Mo. Not mindblowing, but a real interesting looking team with some serious potential.
Oh, I think Bibby is definately terrific trade material. Especially as part of a high-profile trade with other quality players.
The problem is, IMO, there are not many other PGs - FAs or signed players - that would represent an upgrade at the PG position for the Kings.
So if Bibby was to be part of a deal, just what would they be getting in return? Hmmm...
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Houston Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Juwan Howard
6-9 PF from Michigan
9.6 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 1.5 apg in 26.6 minutes
Incoming
Kenny Thomas
6-7 PF from New Mexico
11.3 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 1.6 apg in 28.6 minutes
Change in team outlook: +1.7 ppg, +0.8 rpg, and +0.1 apg.
Sacramento Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Kenny Thomas
6-7 PF from New Mexico
11.3 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 1.6 apg in 28.6 minutes
Incoming
Juwan Howard
6-9 PF from Michigan
9.6 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 1.5 apg in 26.6 minutes
Change in team outlook: -1.7 ppg, -0.8 rpg, and -0.1 apg.
Outgoing
Juwan Howard
6-9 PF from Michigan
9.6 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 1.5 apg in 26.6 minutes
Incoming
Kenny Thomas
6-7 PF from New Mexico
11.3 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 1.6 apg in 28.6 minutes
Change in team outlook: +1.7 ppg, +0.8 rpg, and +0.1 apg.
Sacramento Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Kenny Thomas
6-7 PF from New Mexico
11.3 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 1.6 apg in 28.6 minutes
Incoming
Juwan Howard
6-9 PF from Michigan
9.6 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 1.5 apg in 26.6 minutes
Change in team outlook: -1.7 ppg, -0.8 rpg, and -0.1 apg.
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We better have gotten back a helluva player if we're going to roelplay out our PG position, particularly when moving Bibby will finish off the last of our old leadership and saavy.
As an aside, while nobody is untouchable, defense and bigtime success does not start with defensively minded PGs. Nash is a bad defender. Parker is the worst defender in the Spurs lineup. Derek Fisher was never a great defender. Nor Avery Johnson. Nor Magic. Nor Stockton. Nor Zeke. etc. It would be realy nice to get more defense out of Mike, but its really kind of a sidelight. Good defensive teams erase their PG defensive weakness with intimidating interior defenders who can cover the rim. Most important trait for a PG is the ability to control the game, and Mike can do that to a MUCH greater degree than an Antonio Daniels (who would be a nice backup).
As an aside, while nobody is untouchable, defense and bigtime success does not start with defensively minded PGs. Nash is a bad defender. Parker is the worst defender in the Spurs lineup. Derek Fisher was never a great defender. Nor Avery Johnson. Nor Magic. Nor Stockton. Nor Zeke. etc. It would be realy nice to get more defense out of Mike, but its really kind of a sidelight. Good defensive teams erase their PG defensive weakness with intimidating interior defenders who can cover the rim. Most important trait for a PG is the ability to control the game, and Mike can do that to a MUCH greater degree than an Antonio Daniels (who would be a nice backup).
Ok, let's completely finish this fantasy:
At 15 the Kings draft Joey Graham. Will he last to the 15th pick? I don't know, but I think if Golden State and Charlotte pass (especially if Charlotte packages their picks to trade up) then there is a great chance. Besides, this is my fantasy.
At 23 they take Roko Leni-Ukic. Ukic isn't a player that I would want the current Kings to take, but in this scenario they've dealt BJax, so a backup PG is needed. Why not take one with great size, good defense and potential?
Hopefully these picks pan out, because I think a future 1st rounder would need to be thrown in to the Denver deal to make them bite.
Next, the Kings make a pitch to Antonio Daniels for the MLE. If that fails, they resign Evans with part (hopefully not all) of the MLE and resign Darius to a reasonable deal. Finally, the Kings grab a veteran point for the minimum, or better yet, they convince Jay Williams to try to restart his career (reports are that he looks good so far) in Sacramento.
C- Brad
PF- Nene
SF- Graham
OG - Pierce
PG- Bibby
PF/C -- LaFrentz
PF/C -- Skinner
PF -- Songaila
OG -- Evans
OG -- Martin
PG -- Ukic
PG -- Williams or veteran PG (Lue? Armstrong? Carter?)
IR OG -- Lenard
IR SF/PF/C -- Robinson
Pierce swings between both wings and there's good depth up front. In fact, looking at it now, Songaila might just be extraneous. A nice solid team with some potential.
Of course, I'm also not sure that these wouldn't be great moves to make WITHOUT the Boston trade. More continuity and since I think Pierce and Peja would provide about equal production in Sacramento, for me it comes down to Bobby versus LaFrentz. No brainer.
At 15 the Kings draft Joey Graham. Will he last to the 15th pick? I don't know, but I think if Golden State and Charlotte pass (especially if Charlotte packages their picks to trade up) then there is a great chance. Besides, this is my fantasy.
At 23 they take Roko Leni-Ukic. Ukic isn't a player that I would want the current Kings to take, but in this scenario they've dealt BJax, so a backup PG is needed. Why not take one with great size, good defense and potential?
Hopefully these picks pan out, because I think a future 1st rounder would need to be thrown in to the Denver deal to make them bite.
Next, the Kings make a pitch to Antonio Daniels for the MLE. If that fails, they resign Evans with part (hopefully not all) of the MLE and resign Darius to a reasonable deal. Finally, the Kings grab a veteran point for the minimum, or better yet, they convince Jay Williams to try to restart his career (reports are that he looks good so far) in Sacramento.
C- Brad
PF- Nene
SF- Graham
OG - Pierce
PG- Bibby
PF/C -- LaFrentz
PF/C -- Skinner
PF -- Songaila
OG -- Evans
OG -- Martin
PG -- Ukic
PG -- Williams or veteran PG (Lue? Armstrong? Carter?)
IR OG -- Lenard
IR SF/PF/C -- Robinson
Pierce swings between both wings and there's good depth up front. In fact, looking at it now, Songaila might just be extraneous. A nice solid team with some potential.
Of course, I'm also not sure that these wouldn't be great moves to make WITHOUT the Boston trade. More continuity and since I think Pierce and Peja would provide about equal production in Sacramento, for me it comes down to Bobby versus LaFrentz. No brainer.
Would think that would be obvious.
But just to spell it out -- Pierce has a lot more versatility to his game than Peja and is far better suited to the role of #1 option (and here it should be noted that if we were talking about who was going to be our #3 option for instance, Peja might be better suited than Pierce). Critically Pierce can play with the ball in his hands, better rebounder, much better/more prolific passer, can post up, drive to the hoop etc. The only thing that really separates Peja from a catch and shoot roleplayer type is the off the ball movement, and unfortunately while that movement benefits Peja, it does nothing for his teammates.
You need a balance on any team of guys who play best with the ball, and guys who play best without it. The "dream teams" we send over every year in international play suffer from having too many guys who need to play with the ball. The Kings suffer from the opposite now -- we lack creative players who can dominate with the ball in their hands. And in particular when it comes to your #1 option, that can't be.
Peja/Bibby/Miller = a softy jumpshooting team almost regardless of who you put around them (unless you somehow found a superstar available for the rest of the random pieces on the team). That's not what you want to be.
But just to spell it out -- Pierce has a lot more versatility to his game than Peja and is far better suited to the role of #1 option (and here it should be noted that if we were talking about who was going to be our #3 option for instance, Peja might be better suited than Pierce). Critically Pierce can play with the ball in his hands, better rebounder, much better/more prolific passer, can post up, drive to the hoop etc. The only thing that really separates Peja from a catch and shoot roleplayer type is the off the ball movement, and unfortunately while that movement benefits Peja, it does nothing for his teammates.
You need a balance on any team of guys who play best with the ball, and guys who play best without it. The "dream teams" we send over every year in international play suffer from having too many guys who need to play with the ball. The Kings suffer from the opposite now -- we lack creative players who can dominate with the ball in their hands. And in particular when it comes to your #1 option, that can't be.
Peja/Bibby/Miller = a softy jumpshooting team almost regardless of who you put around them (unless you somehow found a superstar available for the rest of the random pieces on the team). That's not what you want to be.
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The only thing that really separates Peja from a catch and shoot roleplayer type is the off the ball movement, and unfortunately while that movement benefits Peja, it does nothing for his teammates.
I guess you don't know how the motion offense works. All that off the ball movement is not just for getting open. If you watch Reggie Miller or Rip Hamilton, that's what all their movement is for and in their case I would agree with you. But if you watch the Kings you can see that it's different. Those cuts stretch the defense and open up lanes for other players to drive to the basket. It definately does benefit other players.
And about the Pierce/Peja comparison, I will grant you that in some abstract comparison like overall player rankings, Pierce would probably come out on top of Peja. Not sure that's the case last year, but this year it would be. But what does that mean really? Pierce plays in a totally different system than Peja. Pierce can create his own shot more and that creates opportunities for other people too, but then he's not a real three-point threat either and that creates opportunities for other players too.
Anyway, it's a more complex comparison than just looking at who's got the better numbers. They are about the same age. Their defense is a wash, though Pierce is quicker and gets more steals. Obviously that's what you would expect when comparing a 6'9" - 6'10" ish SF to a 6'6" SG. Pierce costs a lot more but that may even out with the need to resign Peja in a year.
Basically, your suggestion of bringing in Pierce or your other one of bringing in KG results in a complete reworking of the style of play. I suggest in that case that you send Adelman on his way too because you're going to need to play a lot more defense to win when you're only scoring 90 points per game instead of 103.
People keep saying that the Kings don't have an identity now. I think they do. I think their identity is the Princeton offense. You don't need one player to create all the offense for you (ala Steve Nash or Dwayne Wade) though that seems to be the route most teams go in the NBA. And if you expect Pierce to be your 'creator' you're going to be watching a team a lot like the Lakers of this year. A lot of standing around while he "does his thing". With the Princeton offense, everybody is a passer and everybody is a scorer. That's what it means to make the extra pass. You catch the ball at three point range and they have to guard you if you've got a shot. So the defense shifts to compensate and you pass it to someone else who drives for the lane and then passes off to another cutter for an easy layup. It works. We've seen it work for years. And personally, the fact that Adelman and Carril are still here is what gives me the most hope that this team can still be a contender.
I think this is a classic case of "the grass is always greener on the other side". Boston fans have been waiting for Pierce to be "the man" and what have they gotten? They got to the conference finals once in the much weaker eastern conference. It's evening out a bit now, but in those Lakers dynasty years it was considerably weaker than the west.
So anyway, that's my opinion. I'd rather have Peja than Pierce with this team. He knows the offense and he's a perfect player for this type of offense. And he'll always be one of the best shooters in the league, even in a down year like this one was.
I guess you don't know how the motion offense works. All that off the ball movement is not just for getting open. If you watch Reggie Miller or Rip Hamilton, that's what all their movement is for and in their case I would agree with you. But if you watch the Kings you can see that it's different. Those cuts stretch the defense and open up lanes for other players to drive to the basket. It definately does benefit other players.
And about the Pierce/Peja comparison, I will grant you that in some abstract comparison like overall player rankings, Pierce would probably come out on top of Peja. Not sure that's the case last year, but this year it would be. But what does that mean really? Pierce plays in a totally different system than Peja. Pierce can create his own shot more and that creates opportunities for other people too, but then he's not a real three-point threat either and that creates opportunities for other players too.
Anyway, it's a more complex comparison than just looking at who's got the better numbers. They are about the same age. Their defense is a wash, though Pierce is quicker and gets more steals. Obviously that's what you would expect when comparing a 6'9" - 6'10" ish SF to a 6'6" SG. Pierce costs a lot more but that may even out with the need to resign Peja in a year.
Basically, your suggestion of bringing in Pierce or your other one of bringing in KG results in a complete reworking of the style of play. I suggest in that case that you send Adelman on his way too because you're going to need to play a lot more defense to win when you're only scoring 90 points per game instead of 103.
People keep saying that the Kings don't have an identity now. I think they do. I think their identity is the Princeton offense. You don't need one player to create all the offense for you (ala Steve Nash or Dwayne Wade) though that seems to be the route most teams go in the NBA. And if you expect Pierce to be your 'creator' you're going to be watching a team a lot like the Lakers of this year. A lot of standing around while he "does his thing". With the Princeton offense, everybody is a passer and everybody is a scorer. That's what it means to make the extra pass. You catch the ball at three point range and they have to guard you if you've got a shot. So the defense shifts to compensate and you pass it to someone else who drives for the lane and then passes off to another cutter for an easy layup. It works. We've seen it work for years. And personally, the fact that Adelman and Carril are still here is what gives me the most hope that this team can still be a contender.
I think this is a classic case of "the grass is always greener on the other side". Boston fans have been waiting for Pierce to be "the man" and what have they gotten? They got to the conference finals once in the much weaker eastern conference. It's evening out a bit now, but in those Lakers dynasty years it was considerably weaker than the west.
So anyway, that's my opinion. I'd rather have Peja than Pierce with this team. He knows the offense and he's a perfect player for this type of offense. And he'll always be one of the best shooters in the league, even in a down year like this one was.
