Peter_Gibbons
Starter
http://dimemag.com/2009/04/dime-sma...oward-spurs-manu-ginobili-injury-uconn-women/
In case you are interested.
[LAL/HOU] - Western Conference, Round 2
- Thread starter kingsnation
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http://dimemag.com/2009/04/dime-sma...oward-spurs-manu-ginobili-injury-uconn-women/
In case you are interested.
beb0p
Starter
The thing with Yao Ming is that if you just watch him against the Kings or other minnows, you don't see the real Yao Ming. I've watched him many times and the thing is, Yao doesn't always play hard. He saves his energy against centers he deems not worthy, but he gets fired up against the elite. How he played Spencer Hawes is very different from how he played Dwight Howard. If he had brought the same intensity against Hawes as he did against Howard, Yao would have Hawes crying by halftime.
And as good as Yao played in Game 1. There is a higher level he can go to. I've seen that higher level and this game is not it. I think the key is for Yao to stay out of foul trouble, but I don't know if that's possible. I know very soon Phil will start bitching about all the things that Yao gets away with and the refs will over-compensate and start calling breathing fouls on Yao.
kingsnation
All-Star
Go Rockets!!!
Peter_Gibbons
Starter
Yeah, I think a determined and focused Yao is going to be big trouble for the lakers. Remember the play where he was doubled by Gasol and Ariza and Yao spins baseline around Gasol and flushes down a dunk? Probably not many people thought he could do that.
I don't mean for a season. My point is that you rarely see Mind dominate the stat sheet as well as the game for prolonged periods of time. My theory is that he just can't. His size is a detriment as well as a blessing. Throw in the fact that he has been playing year round for the past 6 years, the continuous problems with his legs (he will never be healthy, and his national team has cut his career in half) and you get a guy that will never dominate. He will be good, but not dominant. His size and unique skillset will keep him in the game, but his shortcomings will stop him from advancing where he is right now. He has reached his peak.
I didn't say there can't be dominant finesse players. I don't find Yao to be dominant. He gets taken out of the game way too much, be it by foul trouble, stamina or ineffectiveness. I also prefer my centers to be in the more traditional sense... bangers down low. I don't mind jumpshooting big men, I love the versatility. I just think the focus should always be in patrolling the paint, grabbing all and any rebound near you and blocking the crap out of anybody that tries to come into your living room. Yao does neither. I think he wants to, his body is just not willing.
Peter, thanks for the link.
Beb0p... I do understand your point, and it is valid. But! He is not consistent enough. I don't think you can just turn it off and on. He needs to have the same intensity through the season. Either play 100% or don't play at all. Just how I've been taught. If you don't need to, sit the hell down and rest. Yao is not THAT good that he needs to take plays off. Other teams might be that BAD, but he is not that good. He's got a couple of moves here and there, turnaround J, step back J, some sort of hook shot. I've just seen him pushed around way too many times in the paint. Today, he spun around Gasol, tried to finish and blew a wide open dunk because he was fauled by, wait for it, Vujacic. You are 7'6" man, what the hell are you doing???? Shaq would have put his testicles so far in Vujacic's face he never would have dared to come within 10' of the rim. That's the mentality that he lacks, and the reason he will never truly be dominant or great. He always had that problem of being too nice, and he never changed. He always gets pushed around, outhustled, outmuscled. He's big, but not strong for his size. There's a reason Pau and every other skilled center gets his own numbers v Yao. I just think if you're going to be talked about as great, that better translate to defense too. And you better dominate against everybody.
beb0p
Starter
If the comparison is Shaq, then there is no comparison. No human being will ever come close to Shaq. Ever. Patrick Ewing (who by the way, also took a lot of jumpers) and David Robinson (ditto) would be soft too if the bar is set to Shaq's level.
Yao Ming is dominant. He is that good. Shaq is the only big man I've seen in my life that doesn't need a jumpshot. Maybe Wilt and Kareem are like that too, but I've never seen them. Every other great centers or 7-foot PF use the jumpers regularly: Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, Zo, Duncan, KG, etc. I don't get why shooting jumpers mean you're not dominant.
For every jumpshots that Yao takes, he shoot at least three shots from within five feet. I don't get where this Yao as a Brad Miller type jump shooter is coming from. Because he hasn't played that way since he left China.
I just think this Yao is not a dominant center thing is coming from way out of left field. He isn't as dominant as Shaq, but who is. Yes, he need to score to be effective because the team is build around Yao being able to score. It'd be nice to have Hedo and Rashard to carry the scoring load, but the only other 20+ pt scorer on the Rocket is out for the season. So yes, Yao needs to be 24 and 10 to be effective because he is the team's only consistent scorer. Ron Artest isn't a consistent scorer,he only thinks he is.
And while the idea that you either play 100% or don't play sounds good on paper, it isn't practical. Especially for big guys. Shaq took plays off all the time, and to some extend so did Chris Webber. For the amount of punishment that big men take, it's all about pacing yourself so you don't break down come post-season.
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Variant
Starter
Yao is good -- at times he's even dominant.. but he could be even moreso. As much as I marvel at his size and skill during a game, it's inevitable that I'll yell at him for being passive, hanging his head, getting outjumped for a rebound by someone much smaller, jamming a point blank dunk off the rim (yeah he got fouled but you're 7'6" for pete's sake!) and seemingly getting bullied by much smaller players. As someone mentioned already, there's a point where you can be TOO tall and big. Maybe if Yao was 3-4 inches shorter some of the clumsiness might give way to intimidation...
Yao is clearly not a wuss: he hit clutch shots and was determined to come back into the game when he realized his knee injury was not serious, but I wonder if he's just too nice of a guy at heart maybe...
On the other hand, maybe he's as good and skilled as he is largely because of his demeanor, and trying to unleash a more raw and intimidating side would do more harm than good at this point...
Yao is clearly not a wuss: he hit clutch shots and was determined to come back into the game when he realized his knee injury was not serious, but I wonder if he's just too nice of a guy at heart maybe...
On the other hand, maybe he's as good and skilled as he is largely because of his demeanor, and trying to unleash a more raw and intimidating side would do more harm than good at this point...
Big Cuz 15
All-Star
Big Cuz 15
All-Star
Don't take my words too literaly. My comparison to Shaq was for one play. Meaning - if you are that big, you need to play THAT big. Send a message. Nobody is scared of Yao. He does not deter anything. Dominant means being a force offensively and defensively. Yao is just skilled and tall, and there are not really any quality big men in the NBA.
So you're saying taking plays off is okay? I understand about pacing yourself, but the previous comment made was that Yao basically doesn't even try. Pacing is one thing. Taking plays off is another. I understand it's different for big men, Yao especially, but that's the kind of mentality that doesn't really fly with me. I never really considered Shaq dominant because of his skillset anyway. But, he used his size. Yao just kind of goes with the flow, never really changes the game as much as he should to be considered dominant.
Last night he played great, he really did. Those two jumpers toward the end of the game effectivelly killed off that mini rally. But honestly, what do you want your 7'6" center that is an 85% FT shooter to do? Shoot 20' jumpers? Or ****ing shove it down Pau's throat for an And 1??
bigbadred00
Starter
Yao
Dwight
Duncan
KG
All seem like quality big men to me. Are they not big enough for you?
And Shaq had some nasty post moves in his prime, I'd consider that a pretty nice skillset.
Okay... you're proving my point for me. That is 4 quality big men. KG is a power forward, and so is Duncan if we're going by position. That's a totally different argument, and yes I agree both of them are phenomenal and in their prime were great rebounders and scorers. However! Duncan and KG have slowed down considerably. I'm talking about RIGHT NOW. Who? Howard... Yao... who else? Camby is good but can't stay healthy. All other "big men" are more roleplayers than "stars". Yao is not dominating against Wilt and Kareem. He's not dominating period. 20 and 10 is not dominating. Is David West dominant?? Puts up same numbers and he's a damn foot shorter. Similar games... altough Yao does spend more time in the post.
PS Sorry for highjacking thread. leaving now.
PSS Lakers suck.
rexb_kings
Bench
classy
Wow.looking at what Kobe did to Battier shouldn't that be grounds for suspension? I don't see this any different with what Dwight Howard did. intentionally swinging his elbow to Battier's head.
This is part of the fascination with the Lakers after they handled the Jazz in five. Ariza went 11-18 from outside in that series. Shannon Brown had a great series. Derek Fisher was effective. Odom was hitting shots.
Peter_Gibbons
Starter
classy
Yeah I remember this play. Pretty obvious kobe sneaked in that cheap shot because he was pissed Battier blocked off his pass clean.
bigbadred00
Starter
Yao's impact is more than just rebounds and scoring. He forces other players out of the paint which West can only dream of. He is also a lot more helpful in help D and much more efficient. There aren't a ton of great bigs you are right, but you act like there is just 1 in Yao.
If the Lakers front Yao, Bynum, Odom and Gasol are going to wind up in foul trouble every game. The Rockets are going to swing the ball around and drive to the rim, and once the Lakers defense starts scrambling, they commit silly fouls. Especially Bynum, and he's the only one that's big enough to really cause Yao any trouble. They don't want to do that. Their best shot is to play straight up and hope that they can break down the Rockets defense more effectively to score more than 92 points on Wednesday.
Living in SoCal, I've heard all the chatter for the past several days about how the Lakers aren't going to have any trouble with the Rockets, this will be a four or five game series, etc. People fail to understand that the Rockets match up well with the Lakers, and they play a style of basketball that makes LA uncomfortable on both ends.
Whether the Rockets can win this series or not, the Lakers aren't going to just steamroll them on their way to the conference finals. This is going to be a dogfight.
Peter_Gibbons
Starter
I know what your definition of being a dominant center is. You want the guy that can drop 30+ pts, dominate the boards and block shots. But really, there aren't anyone that can average 30 pts, 15 rebs for the whole season in recent history. As crazy as Shaq was, his BEST yr was 29pts, 13rebs.
I think someone said already, Dwight Howard is nowhere near Shaq. Shaq had 23pts, 14 rebs, 3.5blks his rookie yr. DH can never score the same way Shaq did. As big as DH is, he still has a lot of games where he will be a non factor scoring 10pts 9rebs.
Yao is dominant in his own ways. Like someone already said, he can shoot the ball very well and that is a plus. It keeps Gasol honest many times in having to come out of the lane to defend Yao with the ball 20 feet away allowing other guys to get in easier. While Yao isn't athletic, how many 7'5" guys can shoot a turn around baseline fadeaway like Yao? Its amazing someone this big can do some of the things he can do. Most guys around 7 feet has trouble using that move without looking clumsy, not mentioning guys like DH and Shaq won't make the shot even if they pulled off the move. Yao also shoots hook shots with either hand. I mean he's done well with what physical attributes he is given. Overly tall guys usually move like Frankenstein kind of slow. But he actually runs "quick" for his size. Yao is dominant to me and some other people. I guess everyone see things differently. But with Shaq past his prime, Yao Ming is the best center in the world right now.
Peter_Gibbons
Starter
Yup I agree. Most people don't realize Yao is pretty strong. Gasol is not strong enough for him. You see how Yao force Gasol baseline and Pau can't move him even with 2 or 3 bumps.
Fronting is not going to work for the lakers because they needs Pau to conserve his energy for offense and play 40+ mins a night. Blazers had that luxury because they switch Pryzbilla and Oden on Yao 5-10 mins at a time & both of these guys aren't big part of the offense. Bynum is going to pick up fouls and really, Oden is a better defender than Bynum. More physical and stronger too.
The blazers has a very similar team to the lakers in many respect. They have Brandon Roy, the perimeter star player than can drop 30-40 any night while setting other guys up. When Artest said Roy is the best he's ever defended, I think he meant it. But I think what he meant was that Roy was really that good in that series. I don't think Kobe can do any better than Roy having to go up against Battier & Artest every night. Roy shot a very good % even with that kind of D on him. The blazers also have size which is one of the advantages that the lakers have on many teams. Also a deep bench just like that lakers. The blazers series actually helped the rockets prepare for the lakers.
The people that thought it was going to be a easy series for the lakers don't really understand bball. Kobe is going to get wore down much like what the celtics did to him. Except the rockets have 2 top perimeter defenders in the game taking turns on kobe. Keep in mind kobe's 32 pts included about 3 uncontested drives to the basket at the end as the game was already in hand for the rockets.
As much as people say Yao doesn't get enough blocks, he alters a lot of shots. kobe missed couple shots even after getting by Battier because he has to throw the ball higher than usual to avoid Yao. The intangible is that the Rockets are the hungrier team right now. You can totally tell in when Yao just demanded to go back in. Its going to be a hard fought series.
bigbadred00
Starter
Kobe was very inefficient last night. For the amount of shots he took, he didn't make nearly enough. And definitely didn't get to the line enough.
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You saw last night what Pau's best defense against Yao is: try to steal the post-entry pass, and while he got his hands on three or four of them, the rest of the time he was giving Yao clear lane to the basket.
And all this talk about Yao being so big that if a guard fouls him, he still should make the dunk and get the and-1 is nonsense. No one is like Shaq, and if that's your idea of a dominant center, then your bar is set way too high. Shaq is one of a kind. Any other big man getting fouled at the basket is going to have to adjust their shot to get it to fall. I'll admit that I was embarrassed for Yao, watching him get hung after that Vujacic foul, but as long as he forces teams to send two or three players at him, he's doing his job.
Oden is probably stronger than Bynum, but what makes him more effective is that he's smarter on defense. And that's not to say that Oden is an Ivy Leaguer; Bynum doesn't even realize that he picks up silly fouls. He thinks there's a conspiracy or something to keep him in foul trouble. He needs to get in the film room and watch good help defenders, study the way they move their feet to get good position, watch how they don't hack at the ball. He's still not ready to be an elite defender.
Right. All the headlines are about how the Lakers got caught sleeping, how the layoff messed them up. I watched the Rockets outplay the Lakers, straight up. Houston wasn't sharp on offense either, turning the ball over more than they should. And they gave up a lot of offensive rebounds. That wasn't their "A" game. It wasn't the Lakers "A" game either, but this wasn't the Rockets playing lights out and LA not showing up to play. This was two teams that matchup well slugging it out, and that's what this entire series is going to be about.
RKid
Bench
The funny thing is, I dont remember Dick missing all of those free throws at HOME.
Just stop it. If you want to contribute, let's have fun talking about this series.
beb0p
Starter
In a crucial moment late in the game, Pau Gasol was three feet from the basket and threw up a brick because Yao was standing next to him with arms stretched. If that is not a defensive presence, what is? If Gasol wasn't weary of Yao being there, then why did he short armed a three foot shot that didn't hit rim?
Dude, this is not baseball. You can't just compare stats because they're often meaningless in basketball. To put it another way, a lot of meanful stats in bball are not being kept. If they keep track of shots altered, shots discouraged, shots created by drawing double teams, shots from within 5 feet, number of dunks, amount of touches, etc; then you can see that David West's stats are very different from Yao's. They're not even close. And if you watch them play, it should be very obvious that Yao's impact is much, much greater than West's.
You're right. That spanking they got from Detroit a few years back was exactly what should have happen.
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