Kobe

[Superman]

We're going to agree to disagree here. I wouldn't put "called Kwame a F. F. or a F. B." every day on Kobe's resume. If Kobe did half the things attributed to MJ in this book, he'd be lambasted. As a result, Jordan got a pass. And I don't consider that book to be full of fibs. I've seen Steve Kerr discuss they day they kicked MJ out of practice for punching him in a snoot over calls not going his way. I've seen Bill Cartwright discuss how MJ was riding him so hard that he threatened to fight him.

Kobe's degree of aloofness can't really be measured outside of what he and his teammates admit. They have admitted to doing things together -- however that's supposed to translate out on the court. I don't think aloofness is a differentiation between good leader and bad leader. If there was a differentiation, it's that MJ's lesser teammates were afraid of him. Kobe's aren't (and that point is clear). MJ had to build up that rep. Collins couldn't handle him in TWO separate stints, which shows how he tests people just like Kobe, if not worse. MJ and Kobe are MUCH more similar than Pippen and Kobe. Pippen has a TANGIBLE track record of being a poor leader. Kobe doesn't have much other than the supposition that he and not Jerry Buss "ran Shaq out".

I think the differentiation between Kobe and MJ, even though they both were clearly the best players on their team, is that Jordan's team clearly respected him as the leader on the court. No matter what happened the previous day in practice. And that was the case throughout his entire career.

Maybe the reason that hasn't been the case for Kobe is because he was considered as an arrogant teenage brat when he first came in the League. The Lakers were built around Shaq, and Kobe wanted the spotlight. Either way, just between the past two seasons has Kobe begun to be a respected teammate by everyone wearing a Laker uniform.

 

[Gargamel]

I think the differentiation between Kobe and MJ, even though they both were clearly the best players on their team, is that Jordan's team clearly respected him as the leader on the court. No matter what happened the previous day in practice. And that was the case throughout his entire career.

Maybe the reason that hasn't been the case for Kobe is because he was considered as an arrogant teenage brat when he first came in the League. The Lakers were built around Shaq, and Kobe wanted the spotlight. Either way, just between the past two seasons has Kobe begun to be a respected teammate by everyone wearing a Laker uniform.

I wouldn't even go as far as to say he was an arrogant brat at age 17. I know that's the prevailing notion, but there wasn't much out of him until his first spat w/ Shaq in 2001 to really lay that on him. He was an introvert/aloof, but then again, who wants to hear anything out of a teen rookie? Tex Winter says that it was Shaq who was harsh to Kobe from the early stages, not the other way around. No patience on that team in general for rookie mistakes (KB wasn't Bron, there was a big learning curve). Young Kobe was probably more brazen on the floor than he was in the lockeroom, trying to dribble thru 3 guys, attempting gaudy dunks and crossovers, etc. That's probably what turned Shaq off. Harris was very demonstrative in his displeasure w/ him too, which probably lent to the atmosphere.

Does he now have respect? At the very least, I suspect that Odom, Mihm, Walton, and Butler (when he was here) did/do. Imo, most of the guys on this particular squad probably don't even know that they should respect him. A guy like Smush Parker doesn't even throw off the vibe that he respects the uniform, much less Kobe. Kwame is terrified. Radman is a space cadet. Sasha is a little emotionally labile rat. Bynum is having more youngster probs than Kobe... I don't think Kobe has much to work with as the roster stands. Jax himself has had numerous run-ins w/ these guys (he yelled at Bynum a few games ago, making him cry). I commend Kobe for not trying to choke one of them.

 

[Gargamel]

A tangent on how we view some players over others.

Magic Johnson:

1979/80 - Tiffs w/ Norm Nixon (a loudmouth) over sharing PG duties. Wins Finals MVP in a dubious manner. Kareem got the votes, CBS execs managed to get it changed to Magic after Gm6 since Kareem was absent.

1980/81 - Magic tears knee lig, out 45 gms. Eddie Jordan and Cooper share his role and the team plays well. Magic comes back at the end of the year and is thrust into his old role, which caused some disarray in the lockeroom between Coach Westhead and other vets. Lakers lose in Rd1 (3 gm series) to Houston. At end of Gm3, winning play drawn up for Kareem, but Magic throws up an airball.

1981/82 - Westhead decides that after getting pushed around by Houston, the Lakers needed to develop a fallback halfcourt plan. He switches the gameplan totally at the start of the season. Magic is so frustrated that he tells reporters, "They might as well trade me..." The next game (a win) he repeats it. Buss fires Westhead w/o even having a backup in mind (he tried to re-insert West as coach). Magic booed by home crowd during player intros for a month. Even Riley says that Buss' firing of Westhead was unfair.

That's Magic Johnson we're talking about, one of the most beloved players in league history. Some players get a pass. Others don't. Kobe doesn't.

* Buss already proved in 81 that he would choose star guard over coach. The notion that Kobe drove Phil and Shaq out on his own is bogus. Buss pulls the strings.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

We're going to agree to disagree here. I wouldn't put "called Kwame a F. F. or a F. B." every day on Kobe's resume. If Kobe did half the things attributed to MJ in this book, he'd be lambasted. As a result, Jordan got a pass. And I don't consider that book to be full of fibs. I've seen Steve Kerr discuss they day they kicked MJ out of practice for punching him in a snoot over calls not going his way. I've seen Bill Cartwright discuss how MJ was riding him so hard that he threatened to fight him.

I've read enough of the book to agree. He terrorized a number of players. When he made his third comeback he completely destroyed a young Wizards team for another shot at personal glory, sacrificing the growth of their young talent and installing a puppet coach. His image hardly took a hit for that while AI and Kobe and 10-15 other players are universally regarded as selfish ball hogs. He's also gotten a huge pass on his off court behavior which is notorious in his favorite vacation spots yet widely unknown outside of them.

I don't think that Kobe's a better guy nor do I think he is better than MJ at this point in their careers, I just think MJ has been the beneficiary of a huge hype machine intended to give basketball its own Babe Ruth or Mohammed Ali. And like those two who are widely heralded as the Greatest of All Time in their respective sports there are one or two others who can make a pretty legitimate argument for the title.

 

[Superman]

I wouldn't even go as far as to say he was an arrogant brat at age 17. I know that's the prevailing notion, but there wasn't much out of him until his first spat w/ Shaq in 2001 to really lay that on him. He was an introvert/aloof, but then again, who wants to hear anything out of a teen rookie? Tex Winter says that it was Shaq who was harsh to Kobe from the early stages, not the other way around. No patience on that team in general for rookie mistakes (KB wasn't Bron, there was a big learning curve). Young Kobe was probably more brazen on the floor than he was in the lockeroom, trying to dribble thru 3 guys, attempting gaudy dunks and crossovers, etc. That's probably what turned Shaq off. Harris was very demonstrative in his displeasure w/ him too, which probably lent to the atmosphere.

I think most fans and the media viewed Kobe that way. He still gets booed in Philly because of that opinion. And it was more because of his performance on the floor - as you mentioned, trying to do it all - than his personality. But his personality didn't help. And it wasn't all his fault. He was from a different generation than all of his teammates, and he had never not been the best. Tough adjustment to make. I don't think he did a very good job at making it, but I don't think I would have, either. Point is, he was disliked more than he was liked in his early Laker days.

Does he now have respect? At the very least, I suspect that Odom, Mihm, Walton, and Butler (when he was here) did/do. Imo, most of the guys on this particular squad probably don't even know that they should respect him. A guy like Smush Parker doesn't even throw off the vibe that he respects the uniform, much less Kobe. Kwame is terrified. Radman is a space cadet. Sasha is a little emotionally labile rat. Bynum is having more youngster probs than Kobe... I don't think Kobe has much to work with as the roster stands. Jax himself has had numerous run-ins w/ these guys (he yelled at Bynum a few games ago, making him cry). I commend Kobe for not trying to choke one of them.

But I think they respect his game/accomplishments moreso than his three-peat teammates (Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, etc.) On the court, he's viewed as the best player, the leader, the go-to guy, Numero Uno, etc. They've all conceded as much in the past... maybe not Smush, but he's an idiot.

And I think they respect him because he doesn't publicly fly off the handle at them, throw them under the bus, etc. He would ride guys during games two seasons ago. Not so much anymore. That's led to him being a respected leader on the floor.

 

[BMiller52]

Kobe himself said yesterday on ESPN(sportscenter) that they should give the MVP to Dirk.

 

[Superman]

Kobe himself said yesterday on ESPN(sportscenter) that they should give the MVP to Dirk.

What do you think Dirk would say? What has Steve Nash said the past two seasons? What does every MVP candidate say?

 

[AleksandarN]

Oh hardly. That's just the Lakers homerness coming out.

One of the great separating features with Jordan was exactly his ability to hang out with the guys in the locker room. He was intensely competitive, he could be an *******, but at the end of the day he was also the guy making the jokes, the guy setting up poker nights, the guy leading expeditions to the clubs etc. He was never aloof from his own teammates. He may not in any true since have been nice, but he right with them as the alpha dog. Doing what they did, intimately involved in leading them. Until the Washington years, there was never a huge wall between MJs locker and the rest of the team's.

Kobe's sour little puss is actually much closer to Pippen's personality than Jordan's. And at a certian point that is just what it is. Some people have a knack for leading and interracting with people. Some people do not.

Yeah such a nice team leader how about the times he punched out his team mates or treatment he gave to Toni K? He was far from a team leader and further from sainthood like some of the media and fan would like people to believe.

 

[KINGSFAN-FROM-L.A.]

Yeah such a nice team leader how about the times he punched out his team mates or treatment he gave to Toni K? He was far from a team leader and further from sainthood like some of the media and fan would like people to believe.

yet he won 6 rings... any hardships he had with the team were because of competiveness and his hunger to be the best and to win championships

 

[Bricklayer]

Yeah such a nice team leader how about the times he punched out his team mates or treatment he gave to Toni K? He was far from a team leader and further from sainthood like some of the media and fan would like people to believe.

People are wimps sometimes. I mean seriously.

No one said "nice". Nice is irrelevant. Many a great leader is not "nice". That's NOT the standard. Can you connect? Hang with the guys, badger them, drive them, dictate the locker room? MJ wasn't just a good leader, he was a GREAT leader. One of the strongest nastiest alpha dog type leaders I have seen. Few "liked" him, but they all followed him anyway on sheer charisma and force of will.

 

[Gargamel]

He's also gotten a huge pass on his off court behavior which is notorious in his favorite vacation spots yet widely unknown outside of them.

I haven't read the Wizards book, but I plan to pick it up someday.

I remember when during his separation from his wife, a reporter asked him about his infidelities. Jordan looks at him and says, "C'mon, man..." and walked off. That was about all the crap he took on that subject... And I bet the other reporters around him treated him like a leper for asking. You can bet that the Chicago guys were well aware of his freezeout of Sports Illustrated.

As to his bonds w/ Pippen, there was a pretty damn funny interview that BSPN did w/ Scottie back in 94 or 95 when he was considering leaving the Bulls as a FA. Dan Patrick gave him a set-up question about how supportive Jordan was and after Scottie waxed about Mike, Patrick played audio of Jordan saying, "I got sick and tired of carrying Scottie and Horace when their asses got tight late in games and my father was too." Scottie looked irritated at that and he replies, "With all due respect to Michael, I don't know where that's coming from. No one ever had to carry me in a game." (sorry, Scottie...)

 

[Gargamel]

yet he won 6 rings... any hardships he had with the team were because of competiveness and his hunger to be the best and to win championships

We can say the same about Isiah Thomas, but many fans detest him because he didn't shield his impish side from the cameras.

 

[vladetomiller]

Oh hardly. That's just the Lakers homerness coming out.

One of the great separating features with Jordan was exactly his ability to hang out with the guys in the locker room. He was intensely competitive, he could be an *******, but at the end of the day he was also the guy making the jokes, the guy setting up poker nights, the guy leading expeditions to the clubs etc. He was never aloof from his own teammates. He may not in any true since have been nice, but he right with them as the alpha dog. Doing what they did, intimately involved in leading them. Until the Washington years, there was never a huge wall between MJs locker and the rest of the team's.

Kobe's sour little puss is actually much closer to Pippen's personality than Jordan's. And at a certian point that is just what it is. Some people have a knack for leading and interracting with people. Some people do not.

And that is the anti laker homerness or hatred coming out or MJ worshipping happening here.

1. MJ was the undisputed leaded in that bulls era, no doubt about that but how are you attributing all of that to MJs personality / leadership skills.

If he was such a great leader with a veteran / skilled bulls team he shouldnt have any problems leading a washington team which was basically in awe of that guy in the locker room and would have listened to whatever he had to say, unless they all collectively felt that he was not the right leader. Mind you some of those guys were not alpha dogs or wannabe alpha dogs who didnt want to listen to one, they have shown that they are comfortable playing that role in some other team and are contributing their success as well.

Which makes me believe MJ was not the sole reason for what happened in Chicago

2. PJ has shown twice in his career that he can take two super stars, pick an alpha dog and maintain that status through championship years. He did it with MJ and Pippen and then ensured that Shaq was the alpha dog versus a kobe.

Shaq really was not a great leader as he doesnt and didnt have the required work ethics, but because of his abilities as a player he was undisputed within the team as a leader until atleast the 3 rings were in the pocket.

Maybe PJ is the reason MJ and Shaq were successful as leaders.

3. Just because there is an alpha dog doesnt mean others in the pack will always have to be subordinates. If others feel that they are better its upto the pack to decide who the alpha dog is and they will do it to their best interest obviously. Didnt Pippen leave MJ after 6 rings, what was the reason, he wanted to prove he can win without being in the shadows, maybe he thought he was an equal and not a side kick.

Even if we assume that Kobe wanted Shaq out of town, he was not the deciding authority. It was the owner, who decided to ship Shaq and PJ out of town just to have a shot at signing the free agent Kobe Bryant. I dont think Buss had to take that risk, he could have stayed with Shaq and PJ and signed maybe another 2 guard in the team. So even if we assume that Kobe was complaining every day to the owner, 7 times a day, the owner didnt have to do it, unless he had compelling business reasons to do so.

4. How come Kobe is the only one who is getting blamed forever for things like this. Couldnt TMac have stayed with Carter and continued what seemed like a great beginning of special things to come.

How many times had Kobe been accused of skipping practice, not being on time etc. I mean practice here

How many players have let as free agents from championship teams just after they have won the ring, are they all selfish and mean.

As Garg pointed out, lots of those sensitive questions that were posed to MJ were just ignored by him and the media or league did not villify him for that.

 

[vladetomiller]

People are wimps sometimes. I mean seriously.

No one said "nice". Nice is irrelevant. Many a great leader is not "nice". That's NOT the standard. Can you connect? Hang with the guys, badger them, drive them, dictate the locker room? MJ wasn't just a good leader, he was a GREAT leader. One of the strongest nastiest alpha dog type leaders I have seen. Few "liked" him, but they all followed him anyway on sheer charisma and force of will.

Ah,MJ defense either way.

A leader wouldnt punch a teammate and he picked Kerr to throw that punch. How about picking a Rodman or a oakley to throw that punch.

Anyways, a leader wouldnt initiate a physical conflict in a basketball team, if he reacts or settles a physical issue thats different, but you dont start throwing punches in practice for missed calls.

unlike you define or think leaders are not the person who everyone fears, there is respect for the talent, love for the togetherness and fear for the consequences of not following, where the consequences are not achieving success and not a broken nose.

I definitely agree that being a social person helps for a leader, but not the other points that you try to throw around as leadership excuses.

Again as i said in another post, maybe PJ was the real leader who made the team click.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Just to add more fuel to the fire (okay, now you can say I'm "dogging" Kobe, hoopsfan), here's tonight's Low Five from NBATV's Fantasy Hoops show:


Low Five: Things Kobe needs to do before he should even be considered to be even to Mike


5. Win Defensive Player of the Year
4. Raise Playoff scoring average
3. Win nine more scoring titles
2. Win five MVP awards
1. Win three more championships

3,2 and 1 are pretty much the arguments that most people hang their hats on, but I did find 4 and 5 quite interesting. Four in particular: Kamla went on to mention how Bryant's career playoff average is actually LOWER than his regular season average (of course, he then chickened out and went out of his way to clarify that he was not implying that Kobe comes up small in the playoffs).

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I haven't read the Wizards book, but I plan to pick it up someday.

I remember when during his separation from his wife, a reporter asked him about his infidelities. Jordan looks at him and says, "C'mon, man..." and walked off. That was about all the crap he took on that subject... And I bet the other reporters around him treated him like a leper for asking. You can bet that the Chicago guys were well aware of his freezeout of Sports Illustrated.

As to his bonds w/ Pippen, there was a pretty damn funny interview that BSPN did w/ Scottie back in 94 or 95 when he was considering leaving the Bulls as a FA. Dan Patrick gave him a set-up question about how supportive Jordan was and after Scottie waxed about Mike, Patrick played audio of Jordan saying, "I got sick and tired of carrying Scottie and Horace when their asses got tight late in games and my father was too." Scottie looked irritated at that and he replies, "With all due respect to Michael, I don't know where that's coming from. No one ever had to carry me in a game." (sorry, Scottie...)

I didn't even realize there was a Wizards book. Then again The Jordan Rules is something of a secret to most. Obviously Jordan and his people do their best to bury stuff like this. I won't touch the subject of his infidelities except to say that when I lived in Santa Barbara tales of Jordan's behavior at Madison's were a dime a dozen.

I always thought Pippen never got the due he deserved for what he did with the 93-94 Bulls, they were a notoriously blown call away from legitimately making a run at 4 straight. That was pretty much the only time a prime Pippen got a chance to do anything without MJ and he more than held his own yet people always point to his performance with the Blazers and Rockets instead.

 

[KINGSFAN-FROM-L.A.]

And that is the anti laker homerness or hatred coming out or MJ worshipping happening here.

1. MJ was the undisputed leaded in that bulls era, no doubt about that but how are you attributing all of that to MJs personality / leadership skills.

If he was such a great leader with a veteran / skilled bulls team he shouldnt have any problems leading a washington team which was basically in awe of that guy in the locker room and would have listened to whatever he had to say, unless they all collectively felt that he was not the right leader. Mind you some of those guys were not alpha dogs or wannabe alpha dogs who didnt want to listen to one, they have shown that they are comfortable playing that role in some other team and are contributing their success as well.

Which makes me believe MJ was not the sole reason for what happened in Chicago

2. PJ has shown twice in his career that he can take two super stars, pick an alpha dog and maintain that status through championship years. He did it with MJ and Pippen and then ensured that Shaq was the alpha dog versus a kobe.

Shaq really was not a great leader as he doesnt and didnt have the required work ethics, but because of his abilities as a player he was undisputed within the team as a leader until atleast the 3 rings were in the pocket.

Maybe PJ is the reason MJ and Shaq were successful as leaders.

3. Just because there is an alpha dog doesnt mean others in the pack will always have to be subordinates. If others feel that they are better its upto the pack to decide who the alpha dog is and they will do it to their best interest obviously. Didnt Pippen leave MJ after 6 rings, what was the reason, he wanted to prove he can win without being in the shadows, maybe he thought he was an equal and not a side kick.

Even if we assume that Kobe wanted Shaq out of town, he was not the deciding authority. It was the owner, who decided to ship Shaq and PJ out of town just to have a shot at signing the free agent Kobe Bryant. I dont think Buss had to take that risk, he could have stayed with Shaq and PJ and signed maybe another 2 guard in the team. So even if we assume that Kobe was complaining every day to the owner, 7 times a day, the owner didnt have to do it, unless he had compelling business reasons to do so.

4. How come Kobe is the only one who is getting blamed forever for things like this. Couldnt TMac have stayed with Carter and continued what seemed like a great beginning of special things to come.

How many times had Kobe been accused of skipping practice, not being on time etc. I mean practice here

How many players have let as free agents from championship teams just after they have won the ring, are they all selfish and mean.

As Garg pointed out, lots of those sensitive questions that were posed to MJ were just ignored by him and the media or league did not villify him for that.

dude, what r u talking about??? seriously! the man was 40!!! and had been out of basketball for 3 years and just came off that rib injury caused by artest in the summer... the wizars had 2 things going for them, MJ and rip, and then they traded half of that awa for a trash player in stackhouse

 

[vladetomiller]

dude, what r u talking about??? seriously! the man was 40!!! and had been out of basketball for 3 years and just came off that rib injury caused by artest in the summer... the wizars had 2 things going for them, MJ and rip, and then they traded half of that awa for a trash player in stackhouse

Chill.

Age is not an issue to be a leader of the team. understand the subject being discussed before answering and specifically quoting.

 

[Superman]

4. Raise Playoff scoring average

...

Four in particular: Kamla went on to mention how Bryant's career playoff average is actually LOWER than his regular season average (of course, he then chickened out and went out of his way to clarify that he was not implying that Kobe comes up small in the playoffs).

I think I would have mentioned that Kobe played in several playoff games before he became a good player. His rookie years saw a lot of bad outings in the postseason, I think.

 

[acisking]

A leader wouldnt punch a teammate and he picked Kerr to throw that punch. How about picking a Rodman or a oakley to throw that punch.

And yet Steve Kerr himself claims, as recently as the yesterday with the new section on the 95-96 Bulls at nba.com, that it was Jordan's incredible competitiveness ans the pressure that he put on them that led them to win.

"Michael had put so much pressure on us all year that whatever we faced in the playoffs wasn’t going to bother us. Every practice through all year just continued the intensity, and when you have Michael you pretty much think you’re going to win every game. So he took so much of the pressure off just by being himself."

So quite frankly, whether through tough words or even punching a teammate, Micheal found a way to lead and to inspire his teammates.

 

[vladetomiller]

And yet Steve Kerr himself claims, as recently as the yesterday with the new section on the 95-96 Bulls at nba.com, that it was Jordan's incredible competitiveness ans the pressure that he put on them that led them to win.

"Michael had put so much pressure on us all year that whatever we faced in the playoffs wasn’t going to bother us. Every practice through all year just continued the intensity, and when you have Michael you pretty much think you’re going to win every game. So he took so much of the pressure off just by being himself."

So quite frankly, whether through tough words or even punching a teammate, Micheal found a way to lead and to inspire his teammates.

Good point, however that intensity and pressure will work only if your teammates are that kind of a group who want to win and will do what it takes. Steve Kerr could be that good employee you see in an office who will work 20 hours to finish that work the boss gave for the day, but that doesnt necessarily work every time as MJ found out in DC.

So again maybe PJ was the one setting the tone in that team or it was just pure luck or coincidence that they had such a run with no inter personal problems between the players, atleast anything that mattered until Pippen decided it was enough. He had finally decided that he didnt want to be the next in line.

 

[Superman]

Good point, however that intensity and pressure will work only if your teammates are that kind of a group who want to win and will do what it takes. Steve Kerr could be that good employee you see in an office who will work 20 hours to finish that work the boss gave for the day, but that doesnt necessarily work every time as MJ found out in DC.

So again maybe PJ was the one setting the tone in that team or it was just pure luck or coincidence that they had such a run with no inter personal problems between the players, atleast anything that mattered until Pippen decided it was enough. He had finally decided that he didnt want to be the next in line.

Well, I think 6 rings and 5 MVP awards later, it's pretty obvious that Jordan's intensity and pressure worked to the positive more than it did to the negative. Look at the highlight of Steve Kerr's career. He said: "Kerr, a shooting specialist, was giddy with excitement after clinching the title for Chicago. "He (Jordan) said, 'You be ready, Stockton is going to come off you.' I said, 'I'll be ready, I'll knock it down. He's so good that he draws so much attention. And his excellence gave me the chance to hit the game-winning shot in the NBA Finals. What a thrill. I owe him everything." He got punched in the mouth by this man that he says he owes everything to. I think it's safe to say that Steve Kerr respected Michael Jordan, despite his over-intensity and over-competitiveness. I think that's what his teammates probably respected about him the most.

I remember Toni Kukoc being a player that, when Jordan first came back in '95, couldn't handle the pressure and intensity. A three-peat later, and he wound up okay, I'd say. It's funny that he never played as well as he did in those 3+ years with Jordan for the rest of his career, I don't think. At least he never played better.

And regarding Pippen not wanting to be the next in line, I have my reservations about that line of thinking as well. Pippen was a front-runner among those begging Michael Jordan to come out of retirement following the '93-'94 season. Begging. This after a career year for Pippen in which he led the team in nearly every major statistical category.

His desire to leave the Bulls had nothing to do with Michael Jordan, the person. Not from what I remember. I remember it being a run-in with Jerry Krause regarding a contract extension, having a bit to do with the injuries he dealt with in the beginning of the '97-'98 season. And more than that, he didn't want to be remembered forever as the best second-fiddle in the League, the man who couldn't win without MJ.

They definitely didn't have the best relationship with each other, but I doubt there was any disrespect between the two of them at that point in their careers. Speaking of owing everything to someone, Scottie Pippen owes everything to the privilege of being able to be Batman's Robin during their prime years.

Phil Jackson sat on the bench and watched that team win games. Maybe his ego-management helped them co-exist, especially when you throw Dennis Rodman into the mix, but I wouldn't hasten to say that he was responsible for their success. Especially not as the person setting the tone for that team. Anyone who watched that team play would know that Jordan set the tone, and because he played with such professional role players - for the most part - it worked to the tune of three more championships.

In spite of Jordan's competitiveness, pressure and intensity? I doubt that. I'd say because of those things, more than any other single attribute.

 

[Gargamel]

I didn't even realize there was a Wizards book.

This is it:

http://www.amazon.com/When-Nothing-Else-Matters-Comeback/dp/0743254260

I always thought Pippen never got the due he deserved for what he did with the 93-94 Bulls, they were a notoriously blown call away from legitimately making a run at 4 straight. That was pretty much the only time a prime Pippen got a chance to do anything without MJ and he more than held his own yet people always point to his performance with the Blazers and Rockets instead.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-16412607.html

Here's an article from 2/6/95 on the state of the Bulls prior to MJ's return. Forget MJ, Scottie sure as hell got a pass. Check his rap sheet at the bottom. That looks like something you'd expect from Isaiah Rider. They didn't even list that Scottie flipped off his home crowd in 94. Surprising that fans remember 1994 as Scottie's renaissance while guys like Derrick Coleman were being decried for doing similar stuff at the same time.

 

[mcsluggo]

Great points about Pippin.

Pippin certainly owes alot of his success to Jordan, but people seem to forget how much the converse is true as well. Jordan never achieved squat (from a team perspective) without Pippin, either. Jordan NEEDED a pippin PLUS another elite (either Grant or Rodman) to achieve what he did in the two three-peats. Without them, Jordan's playoff record could basically be compared to Tracy MacGrady's.

On the other hand, without Jordan.... Pipin came fairly damn close to leading the Bulls to another championship.

(to be fair, the team surrounding pippin in the "interim" years, without Jordan were a HELLUVA lot better than the Bulls team surrounding Jordan before Pippin showed up... but that is the whole point that seems to constantly be lost in the eternal sainting of Lord Jordan... he NEEDED a damn good team around him to achieve what he did. Period.)

 

[Gargamel]

Shaq really was not a great leader as he doesnt and didnt have the required work ethics, but because of his abilities as a player he was undisputed within the team as a leader until atleast the 3 rings were in the pocket.

Shaq leadership was glorified to a great degree. He was more of a bully who formed cliques, but who also cracked jokes and bought teammates Rolex watches. He was light years more skilled than Kobe was at manipulating people. Sounds like the type of leader that Brick says MJ was.

Here's Shaq's lockeroom resume:

His anger towards NVE for the disruptions he caused in the 98 Jazz series were the final straw for Nick's career as a Laker. Shaq was demonstrative in his dislike for Coach Rambis. ODB didn't need any more reason than that to approach Phil Jackson. If the decision were left up to Jerry West, I highly doubt that he would've done that to Rambis (espec in favor of Jackson, whom he hates).

Shaq droning on and on about needing a shooter is part of the story behind Buss pressuring West into making that Jones/Campbell for Rice trade. Logo still talks poorly about that situation. Campbell, who got edged out of the paint by Shaq, was one of the guys who Shaq conveniently called out for being soft. Lo and behold, Elden was dealt even though the Lakers were left without a competent PF, which got them swept in 99. Note that Shaq was wrong about needing a shooter -- he needed a PF who could hit baseline jumpers (so Glen and his wife Christina were traded for Ho Grant).

Then Tex Winter comes along -- the only guy who ever called Shaq out. He says that he was taken aback by the level of mean spiritedness that Shaq showed to Kobe for little reason. Shaq slapped Kobe in practice once. After one of Winter's criticisms made it to press, Shaq waited until the next practice and yelled at him, "STFU, old man!" At that point, even Jackson was surprised that Shaq would be so spiteful (although he was key in coddling the bully).

 

[BMiller52]

Great points about Pippin.

Pippin certainly owes alot of his success to Jordan, but people seem to forget how much the converse is true as well. Jordan never achieved squat (from a team perspective) without Pippin, either. Jordan NEEDED a pippin PLUS another elite (either Grant or Rodman) to achieve what he did in the two three-peats. Without them, Jordan's playoff record could basically be compared to Tracy MacGrady's.

On the other hand, without Jordan.... Pipin came fairly damn close to leading the Bulls to another championship.

(to be fair, the team surrounding pippin in the "interim" years, without Jordan were a HELLUVA lot better than the Bulls team surrounding Jordan before Pippin showed up... but that is the whole point that seems to constantly be lost in the eternal sainting of Lord Jordan... he NEEDED a damn good team around him to achieve what he did. Period.)

Are you freaking kidding me? When did TMac score 60+ against the Celtics in the playoffs? Never. When has TMac won a DPOY award. Where is TMac's MVPs. 40 year old TMac isn't getting a team with Chris Whitney as the 3rd best player to 35 wins.

BTW it's PippEn.

and Grant wasn't elite.

 

[Gargamel]

Bryant's career playoff average is actually LOWER than his regular season average (of course, he then chickened out and went out of his way to clarify that he was not implying that Kobe comes up small in the playoffs).

Kamla would've been silly to imply that. Kobe got garbage time in his first two years which cuts his career avg down by 3 ppg and Jordan didn't have a teammate averaging 30 a game. Jordan's playoff FGAs went up by 2.2 a game. Kobe's have by 0.4 a game.

 

[mcsluggo]

Are you freaking kidding me? When did TMac score 60+ against the Celtics in the playoffs? Never. When has TMac won a DPOY award. Where is TMac's MVPs. 40 year old TMac isn't getting a team with Chris Whitney as the 3rd best player to 35 wins.

Jordan was drafted in 1984. PippEn was drafted in 1987.
(well traded for Olden Polynese on draft day, 1987 bwaaaahaaaaahaaaaa! )

in the interum, Michael Jordan's bulls went 1 win versus 9 losses in the playoffs. Yes his team-mates sucked, and you could hardly expect a team with only one good player to do much... BUT THAT WAS MY FRIGGING POINT

(what does a bogus DPOY have to do with this? I was talking about relative playoff records. Tracey MacGradey is widely criticicized for his inability to deliver a first round playoff victory... that was why I used him for this comparison about playoff success.)

BTW it's PippEn.

oh, big effen deal

and Grant wasn't elite.

who on the lakers today would you not trade for Grant in his Bull's championship years...?
(14 and a half-ish points, 10 ish rebounds, defense)

 

[BMiller52]

MJ went up against much better teams than the stars of toiday do though. He went up against Bird's Celtics 2 out of 3 times. Then he goes and leads a team to 50 wins and the 2nd round in Pippen's first year but it's not like Pip was even very good that year. He was a rookie who didn't start a single game.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-16412607.html

Here's an article from 2/6/95 on the state of the Bulls prior to MJ's return. Forget MJ, Scottie sure as hell got a pass. Check his rap sheet at the bottom. That looks like something you'd expect from Isaiah Rider. They didn't even list that Scottie flipped off his home crowd in 94. Surprising that fans remember 1994 as Scottie's renaissance while guys like Derrick Coleman were being decried for doing similar stuff at the same time.

I'd say its 50-50. I think Pippen did deserve more credit for what he did on the floor during that time, as I remember it the made-for-tv narrative was that he could not live up to being Jordan's successor at they loved to point that out whenever he failed. But really the only thing keeping them from the NBA finals that year was Hugh Hollins's whistle. On the other hand Jordan did come back and people mostly forgot about the fact that Pippen behaved like an entitled brat. But my main point was that people like to point to the post-Bulls era Pippen to suggest that Jordan carried him his entire career when their individual history seems to suggest they carried each other and 1993-94 is the only full season Pippen had without Jordan before age and injuries started taking their toll.

Thanks for the link to the Wizards book. I will look for it.