Kobe

[vladetomiller]

MJ went up against much better teams than the stars of toiday do though. He went up against Bird's Celtics 2 out of 3 times. Then he goes and leads a team to 50 wins and the 2nd round in Pippen's first year but it's not like Pip was even very good that year. He was a rookie who didn't start a single game.

Really, many think otherwise though. When he went up against the elite that you are talking about he was swept, his playoff record was 1 win and 9 games lost.

And the team that won all those championships even without MJ won 50 games and were pretty good.

But to say that the players much better during the bulls run shows how much of basketball you watched during that time

 

[Geoff]

Jemele Hill (she of the "Kobe is better than MJ" view) posted an addenum to that column. Check it out at http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070330&sportCat=nba

 

[Superman]

Wow, she is on crack.

I've never heard anyone say that Kobe is a better defender than Mike. Ever. In fact, John Salley was just on ESPN Radio with Colin Cowherd this morning and said, very plainly, Kobe isn't anywhere near Jordan as a defender. And he calls Kobe better than Jordan.

Great columnist, though. I'll give her that.

 

[BMiller52]

Really, many think otherwise though. When he went up against the elite that you are talking about he was swept, his playoff record was 1 win and 9 games lost.

And the team that won all those championships even without MJ won 50 games and were pretty good.

But to say that the players much better during the bulls run shows how much of basketball you watched during that time

So you're saying Bird ISN'T much better than Nash/Dirk/LeBron? You're saying that McHale and Parish AREN'T better than all of the sidekicks on those teams? Really? Are you freaking kidding me?

 

[vladetomiller]

So you're saying Bird ISN'T much better than Nash/Dirk/LeBron? You're saying that McHale and Parish AREN'T better than all of the sidekicks on those teams? Really? Are you freaking kidding me?

Man you are good at twisting words or you simply dont understand things.

1. Bird was better than all this yound bunch we have today

2. Coming to your point, during Bird and celtics best days they swept MJ

I understand you will come back with the argument about MJ being young and blah blah blah. Then you have to consider the fact that Bird was breaking down with injuries. He has surgery to remove bone spur from his heels in 88-89 season, in 90 his back problems had become worse and had to have surgery. But clearly after 88-89 he wasnt playing at his top level just because he was bothered by injuries. He wasnt getting any younger, that reason you gave for MJ in DC.

3. Magic Johnson announced his retirement in 91

So 90-91 is the only year when MJ went up against some decent opposition.

Who do you think MJ went up against in those years, on defense he was being guarded by John Starks who was a midget compared to him.

 

[KP]

Kobe will not win another championship, Shaq may and then I'll laugh when I hear all the excuses from LA fans again, but Kobe won't. He's MJ Light at best.

 

[BMiller52]

Man you are good at twisting words or you simply dont understand things.

1. Bird was better than all this yound bunch we have today

2. Coming to your point, during Bird and celtics best days they swept MJ

I understand you will come back with the argument about MJ being young and blah blah blah. Then you have to consider the fact that Bird was breaking down with injuries. He has surgery to remove bone spur from his heels in 88-89 season, in 90 his back problems had become worse and had to have surgery. But clearly after 88-89 he wasnt playing at his top level just because he was bothered by injuries. He wasnt getting any younger, that reason you gave for MJ in DC.

3. Magic Johnson announced his retirement in 91

So 90-91 is the only year when MJ went up against some decent opposition.

Who do you think MJ went up against in those years, on defense he was being guarded by John Starks who was a midget compared to him.

LOL. Dude, face it. MJ went up against great players and teams.

Kobe goes up against...good-great players at best and good teams.

 

[hoopsfan]

Kobe will not win another championship, Shaq may and then I'll laugh when I hear all the excuses from LA fans again, but Kobe won't. He's MJ Light at best.

Make a wager on that??

 

[VF21]

Anybody catch the shot Kobe made last night to tie the game? I still maintain, although I really do not like Kobe Bryant, that he makes some shots no other human could make...

 

[hoopsfan]

3 to send it to OT:

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Anybody catch the shot Kobe made last night to tie the game? I still maintain, although I really do not like Kobe Bryant, that he makes some shots no other human could make...

well...I think guys named Earvin...and Michael, were making those shots long before Kobe was old enough to buy a lottery ticket. But in the NBA TODAY...you're probably right.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Jemele Hill (she of the "Kobe is better than MJ" view) posted an addenum to that column. Check it out at http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070330&sportCat=nba

Jamelle Hill is on crack...she was the one that posted the 'Ron Artest is O.J.' editorial.

 

[KINGSFAN-FROM-L.A.]

Good point, however that intensity and pressure will work only if your teammates are that kind of a group who want to win and will do what it takes. Steve Kerr could be that good employee you see in an office who will work 20 hours to finish that work the boss gave for the day, but that doesnt necessarily work every time as MJ found out in DC.

So again maybe PJ was the one setting the tone in that team or it was just pure luck or coincidence that they had such a run with no inter personal problems between the players, atleast anything that mattered until Pippen decided it was enough. He had finally decided that he didnt want to be the next in line.

why do u keep bringing up this DC nonsense??? jordan was 40 and coming off retirement(even tho his game was at a high level up until artest injured him, you cant expect the same MJ) and the wizards were a weak team hence the reason jordan climbed down from the front office to the court and the only good player the wiz had was RIP.

 

[BMiller52]

3 to send it to OT:

Kobe is so clutch, he had the game winning travel for houston.

 

[VF21]

Kobe is so clutch, he had the game winning travel for houston.

I can't believe I'm about to defend Bryant...

Kobe fell victim to the increased focus on dragging a pivot foot. It doesn't take away from what he did earlier in the game. It was a stupid thing to do but it happens. A LOT of players have been called for traveling this year because of the way the officials are now calling it.

It's not about clutch. It's about trying to unlearn something you've been doing your entire career. It doesn't make it right but it is understandable.

 

[vladetomiller]

LOL. Dude, face it. MJ went up against great players and teams.

Kobe goes up against...good-great players at best and good teams.

Can you throw some facts and data to prove it. Or is it some general stuff you throw around. Tell me which great players and teams he went up against during those 6 rings

 

[vladetomiller]

why do u keep bringing up this DC nonsense??? jordan was 40 and coming off retirement(even tho his game was at a high level up until artest injured him, you cant expect the same MJ) and the wizards were a weak team hence the reason jordan climbed down from the front office to the court and the only good player the wiz had was RIP.

Read the post first, understand the context and then reply.

To be a leader age doesnt matter, so get the context right

 

[Kingzrool]

I just need to say that BMiller52 owns this thread. You guys/gals should give it up.

 

[vladetomiller]

I think so

Its like saying neener neener neener

 

[DaMan]

I can't believe I'm about to defend Bryant...

Kobe fell victim to the increased focus on dragging a pivot foot. It doesn't take away from what he did earlier in the game. It was a stupid thing to do but it happens. A LOT of players have been called for traveling this year because of the way the officials are now calling it.

It's not about clutch. It's about trying to unlearn something you've been doing your entire career. It doesn't make it right but it is understandable.

It was more like a hop step more then a drag of the pivot foot. I was watching this game and it was most likely the best game i have seen in a long time. Kobe and T-mac both shot the ball awful, kobe needed 43 shots to get his 53. But kobe was truely clutch at the end of the 4th and lead them to overtime, but he lost the game for them. First he fouls T-Mac at the 3 point line and then travels to offically give the game to the rockets. Bryant is a great player but his inabilitly to trust his teammates will get him no where, once he sees he can't do it by himself thats when he will show some progress.

 

[Superman]

Can you throw some facts and data to prove it. Or is it some general stuff you throw around. Tell me which great players and teams he went up against during those 6 rings

Patrick Ewing in his prime. Karl Malone and John Stockton. The Showtime Lakers. Charles Barkley and Kevin Johnson in their prime. Isiah Thomas and the Bad Boy Pistons. Alonzo Mourning. Reggie Miller.

And more, I'm sure.

 

[BMiller52]

Can you throw some facts and data to prove it. Or is it some general stuff you throw around. Tell me which great players and teams he went up against during those 6 rings

In the finals Mike played against:

Stockton/Malone twice
Payton/Kemp
KJ/Barkley
Drexler
Magic

in the ECF and ECSF he played against and beat:

Penny/Shaq
Ewing
Tim Hardaway/Zo
Barkley's Sixers
Isiah/Dumars Pistons


the guys he lost to in the playoffs:
The Celtics and their HOF frontline of Bird McHale/Parish and the badboy Pistons at their best.

that's PRETTY impressive. Multiple HOFers there.

 

[vladetomiller]

Bryant is a great player but his inabilitly to trust his teammates will get him no where, once he sees he can't do it by himself thats when he will show some progress.

In this game the lakers lost it in overtime because he trusted the teammates and gave the ball up. No one could make a shot in overtime.

But he needs to trust them and he cannot win it by himself, on the other hand his management needs to get some players who can hit some open shots. That team is very inconsistent in terms of shooting, sometimes they are on fire and most often they cant make layups

 

[BMiller52]

http://www.nba.com/aroundtheassociat...march2007.html

As a result, a lot of questions have begun popping up. Is Kobe as dominant as Wilt? Is he as refined as Jordan? Is he the game's ultimate scorer?

Allow me to answer in a word: No.

It's one thing to place Bryant at the head of his generation, ahead of Allen Iverson and, at least for now, a few of the young bucks who are hot on his trail. That distinction is fair and arguable.

One can also argue that Bryant deserves to be ranked ahead of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, George Gervin, Karl Malone and many of the other all-time great scorers. I'll buy that one, too.

To say he merits a mention alongside Wilt and MJ, however, is plain silly. The numbers just don't add up.

As Bryant said himself following the 43-point effort on March 27 that ended his string of 50s, Wilt was a human video game. Averaging 50 points was something he did for an entire season, not four or five games at a time.
The idea that someone can infiltrate The Big Dipper's realm of dominance with one extraordinary run is an insult to his legacy. I'm sorry. There's no other way to put it.

The same goes for claims against Jordan – as my colleague and resident fantasy freak Rick Kamla so eloquently pointed out.

If Bryant can hang on and clip Carmelo Anthony in the scoring race, he will earn his second scoring title –both in a row and overall – in 11 seasons. Jordan, on the other hand, won 10 scoring crowns in 15 campaigns.

Bryant's regular-season career scoring average is 24.5 points per game. Jordan's is 30.12.

In the playoffs, Kobe's average dips to 22.9. His Airness, on the other hand, actually kicked it up a notch and dropped 33.4 points per contest.

I could go on and reference more numbers, but I'll spare you the tedium and leave you, instead, with a final piece of advice:

Take Bryant's accomplishment and add it to his historic resume. Enjoy it for what it was – one of the most brilliant, awe-inspiring feats the NBA has ever seen. But don't tarnish it by forcing it into a place where it simply doesn't belong. There's no shame in being the third best, especially when the guys ahead aren't just great players but immortal ones.

Think I'm being too hard on KB24? Think he's got the goods to be ranked alongside Wilt and MJ? Drop me a line and tell me what you think.

 

[Geoff]

Jamelle Hill is on crack...she was the one that posted the 'Ron Artest is O.J.' editorial.

it's off topic, but after all that Ron has done since then and the vibe that he's getting in Sactown now, I'd more call her a prophetess.

 

[vladetomiller]

In the finals Mike played against:

Stockton/Malone twice
Payton/Kemp
KJ/Barkley
Drexler
Magic

in the ECF and ECSF he played against and beat:

Penny/Shaq
Ewing
Tim Hardaway/Zo
Barkley's Sixers
Isiah/Dumars Pistons


the guys he lost to in the playoffs:
The Celtics and their HOF frontline of Bird McHale/Parish and the badboy Pistons at their best.

that's PRETTY impressive. Multiple HOFers there.

Hardaway and Zo what did they do then, Shaq in Orlando LOL, Shaq in his younger days and Kemp are the same, athletic freaks who cant get anything done when it matters.
Who would you take KJ or Nash, Malone or Duncan, Ewing or Shaq today
Drexler or TMac
Then pistons or todays pistons and you have answered the question yourself, the pistons at their best beat MJ, but still would you take that team or todays team

 

[BMiller52]

Hardaway and Zo what did they do then, Shaq in Orlando LOL, Shaq in his younger days and Kemp are the same, athletic freaks who cant get anything done when it matters.
Who would you take KJ or Nash, Malone or Duncan, Ewing or Shaq today
Drexler or TMac
Then pistons or todays pistons and you have answered the question yourself, the pistons at their best beat MJ, but still would you take that team or todays team

Oh screw it I give up. You're a delusional Kobe fan.

edit: Actually I'll answer your questions.

Hardaway and Zo were a good combo. They made it to the ECF a few times, Zo was a damn good big man and Tim Hardaway would be a top 5 PG today. They never really reached their potential IMO but they did make it to the ECF. They'd have no problem contending today IMO.

Drexler is a HOF calibre player. He lead teams to the NBA finals. TMac leads teams to... the first round of the playoffs.

Shaq in Orlando was a beast and Penny basically is on the level of today's elite swingmen. Shaq in Orlando led that team to the NBA finals and also was one of the only players to beat MJ(even though he was coming off of retirement). They would have no problem at all contending.

KJ/BARKLEY>Nash/Amare. Nash is probably better overall but KJ was a much better defender. Also played in a more compettitive era and there was much tougher defense back then. If KJ/Chuck played today they would have no problem winning it.

Duncan is starting to age and I'd take a prime(NBA finals) Malone over the player Duncan is right now. IMO Duncan's prime really started to end in 2005. Not to mention Malone had maybe the 2nd best PG of all time who I'd definitely take over Parker/Ginobili.

Prime Ewing would kill any center today including Shaq. He was just a BEAST and I know Shaq has a big impact now but that's mainly because he's smart and there's a lack of big men in the league. Put prime Ewing on the same team as DWade and that is a dynasty. Ewing went up against Olajuwon, Mutumbo, and Robinson. Shaq today goes up against Yao and Big Ben.

The badboy Pistons are much better than the current pistons.

Bottom line is Kobe goes against weaker compettition then MJ did.

 

[acisking]

Hardaway and Zo what did they do then, Shaq in Orlando LOL, Shaq in his younger days and Kemp are the same, athletic freaks who cant get anything done when it matters.
Who would you take KJ or Nash, Malone or Duncan, Ewing or Shaq today
Drexler or TMac
Then pistons or todays pistons and you have answered the question yourself, the pistons at their best beat MJ, but still would you take that team or todays team

This is purely delusional.

 

[DaMan]

In this game the lakers lost it in overtime because he trusted the teammates and gave the ball up. No one could make a shot in overtime.

But he needs to trust them and he cannot win it by himself, on the other hand his management needs to get some players who can hit some open shots. That team is very inconsistent in terms of shooting, sometimes they are on fire and most often they cant make layups

In overtime all the blame goes to kobe, the lakers lost because he fouled T-mac at the 3 pt line and he travled, if he didn't do either, espeacify that foul, they would have won.

I really doubt that kobe could share the spot light with any other superstar because he is all about himself. I am no kobe hater, i think he is the best player in the leauge and should have won MVP last year but the guy is just all about himself. Maybe having that mental thought is what makes him so great but he kick out the best center in this genation out of LA because he wanted to be the main show, if he can't play nice with shaq i really don't know if he could play well with anybody.

 

[vladetomiller]

In overtime all the blame goes to kobe, the lakers lost because he fouled T-mac at the 3 pt line and he travled, if he didn't do either, espeacify that foul, they would have won.

I really doubt that kobe could share the spot light with any other superstar because he is all about himself. I am no kobe hater, i think he is the best player in the leauge and should have won MVP last year but the guy is just all about himself. Maybe having that mental thought is what makes him so great but he kick out the best center in this genation out of LA because he wanted to be the main show, if he can't play nice with shaq i really don't know if he could play well with anybody.

Sometimes people just cant co-exist, it happens. We see so many life term decisions changed cos people cant co-exist.

Many feel that Kobe chased Shaq out of town, he might have had a say in it but i think it was Buss who made the final decision and not Kobe. In fact Kobe was a free agent at that time, so probably he had to chose between Kobe and Shaq and he chose Kobe.

We will never know who the problem was, PJ has been going back and forth, he initially was blaming Kobe and now he seems to blame shaq.

Kobe had problems with Shaq

Shaq had problems with Penny
Then with Elden Campbell
Then with Nick van excel
Then with Eddie jones
Then with Kobe

Its not that one is to be blamed, both are superstars who wanted to have a team of their own. Shaq didnt realize when to give up, he tried to hold on to the team but after he was traded he changed. its not in him to defer to another player but he did with DWhistle and only DWhistle in his career. Maybe that trade put things in perspective for him that he is still not the most dominant player in the league and he has been reduced to a mere super star in the league.

But I feel that stern had a say in what happened as well, nba made most of its money in the christmas games which before that were good but did not have as much drama added to it. There were a few rivalries that were milked but nothing that had so much emotions to it, in fact Kobe and Shaq kinda said the same thing about those games.

Hopefully next year they will change that game, there are other teams in the league too. I am guessing Lakers - Cavs though