[Game] Kings v. Celtics - Wednesday, March 6 - 7PT/10ET

The game just highlights the lack of depth on this team. Bagley goes out and there is a cascading domino effect in which there just isn't the talent to withstand a team like Boston.

I have no affinity for the following players: WCS, Bjelica, Bogs. WCS is a non-competitor, hence his inconsistency. Bjelica and Bogs, though competitive, are both too unathletic at their size to be more than minor pluses. Bjelica is too slow. Bogs is too slow. Bogs appears to be one of those guys who is just at the cusp of being "fast enough" and "not fast enough." If he gets dinged at all or gets a little tired or he plays too much in the off-season or has a cold it throws him into the "not fast enough" category and he becomes the 10th man on the bench because he can't get separation on his shot. He might be effective if he doesn't dribble and runs two miles during the game like Buddy Hield, but he just doesn't seem to be that guy. He can maneuver and gets some shots against bigger players, but then he gets killed on the defensive side of the ball by those same players. I just can't see him as the 6th man for a top 10 team in the NBA. He's more of a guy that you put in the game after he's been resting for two or three games so he can take advantage of some vet in January who has tired legs. Vlade has a lot of work to do in the off-season.

I agree with most of what you’re saying but I see Bogi more as a spot up shooter who can get inside when the opportunity presents itself. Yes he can bring the ball up but not so much on the fast break as most of the time when he brings the ball up the opposing defense is already set up.
 
The game just highlights the lack of depth on this team. Bagley goes out and there is a cascading domino effect in which there just isn't the talent to withstand a team like Boston.

I have no affinity for the following players: WCS, Bjelica, Bogs. WCS is a non-competitor, hence his inconsistency. Bjelica and Bogs, though competitive, are both too unathletic at their size to be more than minor pluses. Bjelica is too slow. Bogs is too slow. Bogs appears to be one of those guys who is just at the cusp of being "fast enough" and "not fast enough." If he gets dinged at all or gets a little tired or he plays too much in the off-season or has a cold it throws him into the "not fast enough" category and he becomes the 10th man on the bench because he can't get separation on his shot. He might be effective if he doesn't dribble and runs two miles during the game like Buddy Hield, but he just doesn't seem to be that guy. He can maneuver and gets some shots against bigger players, but then he gets killed on the defensive side of the ball by those same players. I just can't see him as the 6th man for a top 10 team in the NBA. He's more of a guy that you put in the game after he's been resting for two or three games so he can take advantage of some vet in January who has tired legs. Vlade has a lot of work to do in the off-season.
In hindsight, the 2016 draft wasn't as much as a ringing success as previously thought.

Papa G was an obvious bust and a washout from Day 1.

Skal was traded and is on the end of the bench in Portland.

That leaves Bogdanovic, who was clearly the big target in that trade. An average SG with little upside on a more expensive contract than your average FRP. One should expect to get more than that from a mid-lottery pick. Failure.

Not to mention, I guess the Bjelica signing ended up being a waste of time.
 
Criticism isn't hate. And there's valid criticism about his lineups.

The biggest problem in this game was that Boston put out a tall lineup that our small-ball lineup couldn't defend. They shot over the Kings, and it was mentioned by the commentators calling the game, called out by the fanbase since the lineup was put in, and it was mentioned by the coach in the post-game interview. Now, if we ALL can see that Bogi defending Tatum isn't a great idea, then WHY THE HELL is coach doing it? Why? Change the lineup.

Why switch so much with a small lineup? The more mobile and athletic and quicker guys should be able to man up. They were exploiting mis-matches all game long, especially when Horford got switched onto a smaller player (plus having Barnes as the main defender there???).

At the end of the day, the Kings can win by minimizing mistakes, sure. No complaint there. But the game might not have had to be won in a last possession scenario if the coach adjusted to what he admits is a problem that everybody can see.

The core point is the Kings don’t have a lineup to match Boston.

Boston wasn’t playing two bigs. They had Horford, Smart/Rozier, and a bunch of wings. Kings don’t have personel to match that. Shifting Barnes to the 3 spot wouldve exposed Giles/Bielieca on the perimeter. Which brings me to my original post, we needed JJ in a game like this and wish we would’ve given up seconds instead of him.

So they played to their strength, which is to go with our small, but best players.
 
The core point is the Kings don’t have a lineup to match Boston.
Fox
Buddy
Barnes
Giles\Beli
KK

That would have matched up fine.

Boston wasn’t playing two bigs. They had Horford, Smart/Rozier, and a bunch of wings. Kings don’t have personel to match that. Shifting Barnes to the 3 spot wouldve exposed Giles/Bielieca on the perimeter. Which brings me to my original post, we needed JJ in a game like this and wish we would’ve given up seconds instead of him.
Giles/Beli seemed fine defensively when they were playing next to another Kings big. Boston was able to drive, but the alternative was them destroying the Kings by posting up or getting any shot they wanted over the top. I'd take dealing with penetration vs the other option.

So they played to their strength, which is to go with our small, but best players.
They allowed a weakness to be exploited and they lost.
 
We should make our layups.
Bjelica should have just grabbed the ball instead of trying to get cute.
Coach should have called a timeout instead of forcing Barnes to take such a low percentage shot.

But to me what is absolutely unforgivable and what has killed this team all year is free throws. We've lost so many games because of this teams inability to knock down the easiest shot in all of basketball. Fox and WCS should be shooting 200 FTs a day from here on out. I'm sick of this crap.
 
That's kinda like complaining about not winning 100 million when you're taking home a 80 million dollar lotto ticket! If Fox is top 10, I'm happy!
I think he meant for his position

Though for the first 1.5 months he actually did show potential top ten player future potential, which leaves many scratching their heads about the reason for the drop in play and if he can do that year round in the future

I’m still hopeful it’s physique. When I went to the NY game and paid attention I thought he was dragging. I don’t think he has the athletic zip he did
 
Criticism isn't hate. And there's valid criticism about his lineups.

The biggest problem in this game was that Boston put out a tall lineup that our small-ball lineup couldn't defend. They shot over the Kings, and it was mentioned by the commentators calling the game, called out by the fanbase since the lineup was put in, and it was mentioned by the coach in the post-game interview. Now, if we ALL can see that Bogi defending Tatum isn't a great idea, then WHY THE HELL is coach doing it? Why? Change the lineup.

Why switch so much with a small lineup? The more mobile and athletic and quicker guys should be able to man up. They were exploiting mis-matches all game long, especially when Horford got switched onto a smaller player (plus having Barnes as the main defender there???).

At the end of the day, the Kings can win by minimizing mistakes, sure. No complaint there. But the game might not have had to be won in a last possession scenario if the coach adjusted to what he admits is a problem that everybody can see.
Tatum is their best option without Kyrie, that’s why Boston went to him, and many SFs can’t deal with his length when he is “on”. Not just 7ft wingspan BOgi. I don’t think the team needs to put out different starting lineups every game dismounting the chemistry, let other teams match up to you
 
In hindsight, the 2016 draft wasn't as much as a ringing success as previously thought.

Papa G was an obvious bust and a washout from Day 1.

Skal was traded and is on the end of the bench in Portland.

That leaves Bogdanovic, who was clearly the big target in that trade. An average SG with little upside on a more expensive contract than your average FRP. One should expect to get more than that from a mid-lottery pick. Failure.

Not to mention, I guess the Bjelica signing ended up being a waste of time.
Wow recency bias.
Fickle fans.
Belly helped get us off to a great start and has faded.
Bogi is struggling .... but the disrespect is odd. He’s done a lot for us including the miracle Laker beater. On a banged up team he’s doing the best he can.

Sorry to all fans who have been robbed by the shortcomings of Bogi, Joerger, etc.. I feel really bad for all of you. You deserved better and I am glad there are no homer glasses making you see only the positive in this .500 season.
 
I think he meant for his position

Though for the first 1.5 months he actually did show potential top ten player future potential, which leaves many scratching their heads about the reason for the drop in play and if he can do that year round in the future

I’m still hopeful it’s physique. When I went to the NY game and paid attention I thought he was dragging. I don’t think he has the athletic zip he did
Oh duh! Obviously for position. .. dunno how I missed that haha.

I still think Fox can be a top 3 PG... it's all about that shot developing though.

Not that he isn't being run ragged, playing both ends of the court with this crazy pace.
 
Fox
Buddy
Barnes
Giles\Beli
KK

That would have matched up fine.



Giles/Beli seemed fine defensively when they were playing next to another Kings big. Boston was able to drive, but the alternative was them destroying the Kings by posting up or getting any shot they wanted over the top. I'd take dealing with penetration vs the other option.


They allowed a weakness to be exploited and they lost.

What? That lineup gets destroyed. Horford pulls KK to the perimeter and abuses him.

The only lineup that may have potentially worked is WCS/Giles, Barnes, Brewer, Buddy/Bogi, Fox. Even then, when factoring in Bogi’s offense, it’s not better than what was out there last night.
 
Tatum is their best option without Kyrie, that’s why Boston went to him, and many SFs can’t deal with his length when he is “on”. Not just 7ft wingspan BOgi. I don’t think the team needs to put out different starting lineups every game dismounting the chemistry, let other teams match up to you
And honestly, if you watch how Bogdan defended him, he did a good job. Some of those calls he got were totally ticky tack as well.
 
The Kings could've won the game. And the players played a bit too fast at times--Bjelly's dive and toss to the Celts, Willie throwing the ball away (again), Fox mishandling the ball, and Yogi rushing the play and losing a breakaway. One of those plays go in our direction and everyone is happy.

Plus like 8 missed FTs (I haven't checked and don't care to). I hate hindsight quarterback analysis.

I don't get the Joeger hate. He played his best players. Our best players happen to be undersized at the 3 spot. We need more size there and in a perfect world, JJ would've stayed here and we would've given up Zbo and one or two second rounders for Barnes.

That said, it's not over, but is indeed looking bleak. The Kings have three second rounders--if the Kings keep all three, I expect one of the picks to be a Euro stash and the other two to be lotto tickets on SFs. Here's looking at you Kris Wilkes.
Our best player at the 3 is Harrison Barnes who happens to be 6'8" and really strong.
Sometimes he is played as a 4 which can be a challenge.
 
This season is done as far as I am concerned. Let's talked about what we need next season and who we should go after. This is what need when it comes to free agency. The most dangerous team is a team that can all spread the floor, all five guys can dribble and attack, can shoot all the way out from 3, can run fast break a la Golden State's death squad. Here's what we can do:

We can either bank on Bagley to play the 5 and move Harrison to the 4 and sign player like Middleton or we can move Bagley to the 4 and sign a great center like Vucevic, a center that can spread the floor...making it easy for De'Aaron Fox to attack the basket. We ABSOLUTELY cannot, I repeat CANNOT have a center like Willie Cauley-Stein in this offense because his man is just going to leave him and dare him to shoot and that is a big NO! It makes the offense weak and it makes everyone's game weak. A center that spread the floor is A MUST for this fast pace offense, ESPECIALLY when you have a PG that strike and move at the speed of light. The last thing you need is another help body that stop him from penetrating. That's number one when looking at free agency. The number two thing to look out for is.....can this player keep up with the speed and pace of this offense? Is he fast or slow? Is his game going to deteriorate due to tiredness? Can Vucevic be that guy? I don't know....but what I do know is he's excellent in all areas of his game, ESPECIALLY his passing and court vision. He is going to provide the offense with another QB that the defense ABSOLUTELY cannot take the eyes off, which is going to increase the Kings' scoring ability. He is fundamental sound and will do the fundamental things like box out and rebound, the little things that win games, not like Cauley-Stein...who has been a failure. Remember those close games that the Kings lost at homes because they constantly giving up second chance shots to the opposing team? How irritating, where is the fundamental? Now, I am not saying Vucevic is going to solve the rebound entirely. The cause of the problem is not just on one man. Players like Hield, Bogi and Willie have the tendency not to box out and rebound anyway. But at least with Vucevic....he already have the fundamental down and being 7 feet tall, definitely help grab those rebounds.

Now i heard on radio today, guys are talking about don't invest the money and save it for future home grown stars for fear of losing them. True, but if you look at the elite teams in this league.....they all are overpaid to get a great product on the court. Their owners are willing to invest and go over the cap to retain them. So if the Kings want to have a great team, they can't be stingy. The opportunity to get a great player like Vucevic (who have his root with the Serbian family) is in the Kings favor. Do not blow it! Also, the guys on the radio talking about investing in service players like Kosta. YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! I said it before and I'll say it again.....this is why the Kings is going no where because they believe in players like Kosta and Willie. Mark my words. The last time I said this, Giles and Bagley weren't getting much playing time and when i brought up STOP giving Kosta minutes......look what happened.
 
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Criticism isn't hate. And there's valid criticism about his lineups.

The biggest problem in this game was that Boston put out a tall lineup that our small-ball lineup couldn't defend. They shot over the Kings, and it was mentioned by the commentators calling the game, called out by the fanbase since the lineup was put in, and it was mentioned by the coach in the post-game interview. Now, if we ALL can see that Bogi defending Tatum isn't a great idea, then WHY THE HELL is coach doing it? Why? Change the lineup.

Why switch so much with a small lineup? The more mobile and athletic and quicker guys should be able to man up. They were exploiting mis-matches all game long, especially when Horford got switched onto a smaller player (plus having Barnes as the main defender there???).

At the end of the day, the Kings can win by minimizing mistakes, sure. No complaint there. But the game might not have had to be won in a last possession scenario if the coach adjusted to what he admits is a problem that everybody can see.
Yep, it’s not like every line-up was negative or has been negative over the past 5-6 games.
 
What? That lineup gets destroyed. Horford pulls KK to the perimeter and abuses him.

The only lineup that may have potentially worked is WCS/Giles, Barnes, Brewer, Buddy/Bogi, Fox. Even then, when factoring in Bogi’s offense, it’s not better than what was out there last night.
Beli was fine on Morris. BTW the Kings did pretty well before the line up change as I recall.
 
I cannot understand an urge to throw in the towel now to get an early start on TDOS... this year of all years.

Take me now Jesus.
I don't see anyone who wants to do that. Acknowledging that our playoff hopes are very unrealistic after our recent string of results is not wanting to throw in the towel, it's being realistic. Anything is possible, but it's not likely.

Before you take the angle that I'm saying it's a wasted season or a failure, I'm not.
 
Bogi is our Manu. He needs to come off the bench, share ball handling and running the offense for the second unit, along with being the primary scoring threats with Bags and Giles, and when he's with the starters: become a spot up shooter.
This. People forget that Manu had entire seasons that were throwaways because he had burnt himself out playing for the national team the previous summer. Many times, the Spurs main goal with Manu was to get him healthy/dialed in by the playoffs. They were good enough to be able to wait on Manu—we are not currently good enough for Bogi to have that kind of approach.
 
I don't see anyone who wants to do that. Acknowledging that our playoff hopes are very unrealistic after our recent string of results is not wanting to throw in the towel, it's being realistic. Anything is possible, but it's not likely.

Before you take the angle that I'm saying it's a wasted season or a failure, I'm not.
the poster right above me was doing exactly that. exactly.

anyway - maybe I am just really really old.... I've seen a lot of improbable late season playoff runs in a lot of sports. If the Kings make the playoffs this year it would not even qualify an "amazing" finishing run. Catch up 2 in the loss column to Spurs plus beat them on their floor. That is unlikely but not super unlikely. If the Kings play consistent quality ball like they have been, it is not even unlikely - just depends on Spurs faltering just a little (not much... their schedule is hard.

We could very likely be playing a HUGE game on March 31. Why resign hope of the playoffs because of the Celtics loss??? It just means we have to win one extra game that we expected to lose (maybe a Celtics rematch, a resting Houston at the end.. who knows).

The idea that the loss to Celtics was a final nail the playoffs coffin mystifies me. It for sure was not. Yet a massive consensus seems to feel that way and I just don't get it.
 
I don't know who first said it, probably Bobby Knight:

"Show me a good loser, and I will show you a real loser. "
This is no time to give up, feel puny and start complaining. It is the time to step up and believe in this team.
 
the poster right above me was doing exactly that. exactly.

anyway - maybe I am just really really old.... I've seen a lot of improbable late season playoff runs in a lot of sports. If the Kings make the playoffs this year it would not even qualify an "amazing" finishing run. Catch up 2 in the loss column to Spurs plus beat them on their floor. That is unlikely but not super unlikely. If the Kings play consistent quality ball like they have been, it is not even unlikely - just depends on Spurs faltering just a little (not much... their schedule is hard.

We could very likely be playing a HUGE game on March 31. Why resign hope of the playoffs because of the Celtics loss??? It just means we have to win one extra game that we expected to lose (maybe a Celtics rematch, a resting Houston at the end.. who knows).

The idea that the loss to Celtics was a final nail the playoffs coffin mystifies me. It for sure was not. Yet a massive consensus seems to feel that way and I just don't get it.
The post above yours is by sactowndog and couldn't be interpreted as throwing in the towel. Unless I'm not seeing a post by someone I have on ignore, which is very possible.
 
The core point is the Kings don’t have a lineup to match Boston.

Boston wasn’t playing two bigs. They had Horford, Smart/Rozier, and a bunch of wings. Kings don’t have personel to match that. Shifting Barnes to the 3 spot wouldve exposed Giles/Bielieca on the perimeter. Which brings me to my original post, we needed JJ in a game like this and wish we would’ve given up seconds instead of him.

So they played to their strength, which is to go with our small, but best players.
Wait a minute. Doesn't losing the game by 2 points (with Gordon Hayward running full court then nailing a tough fade away over Buddy for the winner) basically prove that we do match up well with Boston? The Kings gave as well as they got.

And that's really been the story all year. This team can hang with everybody. To be a playoff team we need to give better than we get (so to speak) but that hasn't ever really been the case this year. A team's point differential is almost always the barometer for the playoffs. We've been in the negative all year. It would take an incredible display of crunch time brilliance to overcome that for a full season. We saw last year that these guys are good at executing down the stretch but I don't think it's reasonable to expect it to the point of calling them out when they can't pull miracles.

This has been an unfortunate run with so many chances to solidify our playoff standing slipping away. That's tough. Part of the reason we were confident at the All Star break is that we saw how our depth was a problem for Denver. We've got three guards (and sometimes 4 when Yogi gets hot) who can create and make tough shots. We've got three highly athletic big men pogo sticking around the paint when the ball is in the air. We were just wearing people out. Now with Barnes we've got a forward who can knock down shots and handle defensive matchups we previously had no answer for.

Getting Bagley back should give us a lift but it's fair to wonder at this point what the mental state of the team is. If they are who I think they are, they're going to come out even hungrier. People are saying it's over but, come on. It's not even close to over yet. I watched the 2012 Oakland A's make up a 5 game deficit in their last 9 games to take the division from the Rangers in the final game of the season. All we care about at this point are losses. We can still get wins but we can't erase losses. The Kings have 32 while the Clippers and Spurs have 29. That's 3 games we need to make up not 4. And while the Clippers have the tiebreaker over us, we have the tiebreaker over San Antonio (regardless of who wins our next matchup). Does losing 3 less games than the Spurs over the next 18 really sound impossible?

I don't care about their record so far or their record at home or their record against playoff teams. That's all in the past. Sometimes you can predict the future based on those patterns but sometimes you can't. That's why we watch! Every game we don't know what's going to happen. If these guys come out angry every game and say "naw man, we worked too hard for this to give up now" then I like our chances! Why would anyone throw in the towel just when it's getting interesting? Pick yourselves up, dust off your shoulders, and let's see what kind of fight these Kings have saved for the stretch run. I don't believe they're going to go down quietly.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
We should make our layups.
Bjelica should have just grabbed the ball instead of trying to get cute.
Coach should have called a timeout instead of forcing Barnes to take such a low percentage shot.

But to me what is absolutely unforgivable and what has killed this team all year is free throws. We've lost so many games because of this teams inability to knock down the easiest shot in all of basketball. Fox and WCS should be shooting 200 FTs a day from here on out. I'm sick of this crap.
You see this in almost every game there is at least one Kings' player that doesn't grab the ball with both hands in a loose ball situation, but instead tries to dribble it into his possession. The Bjelica thing was even more awful because he apparently was trying to tip it while on the floor to a Kings' player. Just grab the freaking ball with BOTH HANDS, please. GET THE BALL IN YOUR POSSESSION WITH BOTH HANDS FIRST; DRIBBLE OR PASS SECOND!!! Again, this is coaching. Simple fundamental basketball that we constantly don't see on the floor. Hield is one of the major perpetrators of this. Why can't we see some improvement in this????? Again, just like I said earlier in the season with these one handed off the dribble passes that led to a loss, why can't we see simple fundamentals on the court that will not lead to a loss????? It's incredible that we see this at an NBA level. Joerger has got to do something about it. Sorry, but I just can't get behind a coaching staff that can't rectify these simple basketball 101 errors. It's not a one-off thing - it's a constant stream of stupid non-fundamental basketball. You don't see this on a good college team. It's inexcusable to see this on an NBA team.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
You see this in almost every game there is at least one Kings' player that doesn't grab the ball with both hands in a loose ball situation, but instead tries to dribble it into his possession. The Bjelica thing was even more awful because he apparently was trying to tip it while on the floor to a Kings' player. Just grab the freaking ball with BOTH HANDS, please. GET THE BALL IN YOUR POSSESSION WITH BOTH HANDS FIRST; DRIBBLE OR PASS SECOND!!! Again, this is coaching. Simple fundamental basketball that we constantly don't see on the floor. Hield is one of the major perpetrators of this. Why can't we see some improvement in this????? Again, just like I said earlier in the season with these one handed off the dribble passes that led to a loss, why can't we see simple fundamentals on the court that will not lead to a loss????? It's incredible that we see this at an NBA level. Joerger has got to do something about it. Sorry, but I just can't get behind a coaching staff that can't rectify these simple basketball 101 errors. It's not a one-off thing - it's a constant stream of stupid non-fundamental basketball. You don't see this on a good college team. It's inexcusable to see this on an NBA team.
Unless it’s Harry Giles who goes to the floor and in one motion whips a behind the back no look pass to the closest open man.
 
the poster right above me was doing exactly that. exactly.

anyway - maybe I am just really really old.... I've seen a lot of improbable late season playoff runs in a lot of sports. If the Kings make the playoffs this year it would not even qualify an "amazing" finishing run. Catch up 2 in the loss column to Spurs plus beat them on their floor. That is unlikely but not super unlikely. If the Kings play consistent quality ball like they have been, it is not even unlikely - just depends on Spurs faltering just a little (not much... their schedule is hard.

We could very likely be playing a HUGE game on March 31. Why resign hope of the playoffs because of the Celtics loss??? It just means we have to win one extra game that we expected to lose (maybe a Celtics rematch, a resting Houston at the end.. who knows).

The idea that the loss to Celtics was a final nail the playoffs coffin mystifies me. It for sure was not. Yet a massive consensus seems to feel that way and I just don't get it.
I keep saying this, but it's the Clippers who we need to focus on more imo. They have a harder schedule than the Spurs.

Clippers schedule: OKC, BOS, POR, CHI, BKN, IND, CLE, NYK, MIN, MWK, CLE, MEM, HOU, LAL, GSW, and UTA.
Spurs schedule: MWK, DAL, NYK, POR, GSW, MIA, HOU, BOS, CHA, CLE, SAC, ATL, DEN, WAS, CLE, and DAL.

Spurs have the easier schedule. I think they're more likely to implode than the Clippers, but we'll see.
 
The post above yours is by sactowndog and couldn't be interpreted as throwing in the towel. Unless I'm not seeing a post by someone I have on ignore, which is very possible.
turns out it was because I had sactowndog on ignore.. .so that's why. It was the post above his that I was replying to. One of the pitfalls of the ignore function..
 
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