Kings NBA Draft Workouts

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#31
Ooops.

You are right. I got some numbers switched. Thanks.

Corrected numbers:

Wesley Johnson - FG% (50.2), 3P% ( 41.5), FT% ( 77.2 )
Gordon Hayward - FG% (46.4), 3P% ( 29.4 ), FT% ( 82.9 )
While personally I would take Johnson over Hayward, I do think that Hayward is a much better shooter than the 29% he shot last season. He shot around 45% from 3pt land his freshman year. Only explanation is that he was the focus of the defense more in his sophmore year.

I also think that there's the possiblilty that Babbitt might end up being better than both of them.
 
#33
Oh dear lord. Monroe doesnt have to workout against anybody?? Yikes! How can you bring in that group on the 8th and not make Monroe go toe to toe with any of them?
Maybe Monroe has a workout scheduled elsewhere on the 8th or perhaps his agent won't let him do group workouts (that would be a red flag to me).
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#35
I could be wrong, but didn't Evans have an individual workout last year. I think that turned out OK ;)
From what I remember there was the big PG summit which he dominated and then he was asked back for an individual workout after that. In this case the big man group workout is the following day and Monroe isn't included. It's probably an agent thing -- he's the one guy of the group with the most to lose just like Rubio was last year -- but it's not encouraging news anyway.

EDIT -- Err, make that the day after the following day. Just trying to keep the facts straight.
 
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bajaden

Hall of Famer
#36
From what I remember there was the big PG summit which he dominated and then he was asked back for an individual workout after that. In this case the big man group workout is the following day and Monroe isn't included. It's probably an agent thing -- he's the one guy of the group with the most to lose just like Rubio was last year -- but it's not encouraging news anyway.
I believe that Petrie brought in Evan, Jennings, Flynn, Curry, and one other to sacramento for a group workout. Thats the workout where Evans was able to guard all the others, but no one was able to guard him.
 
#37
I believe that Petrie brought in Evan, Jennings, Flynn, Curry, and one other to sacramento for a group workout. Thats the workout where Evans was able to guard all the others, but no one was able to guard him.
That's how I remembered as well. Evans was brought in initially for an individual workout. He aced the test so he was asked back for a group workout with Flynn, Curry, Calathes, Douglas, and Mills. As far as I could remember, Jennings was not part of the group.

Monroe could very well be brought back for a group workout or GP could travel to another team's home arena to watch him go against other prospects. We do know that GP likes to conduct a "second interview' before he hires him.

.
 
#38
I could be wrong, but didn't Evans have an individual workout last year. I think that turned out OK ;)
Actually he had both. I guess I didn't express myself correctly. I don't have a problem with an individual workout. It would make me wonder, though, if the reason they wouldn't do a group workout was becasue tthe agent wouldn't allow it. I'd think they were avoiding comparisons. ;)
 
#40
Monroe could very well be brought back for a group workout or GP could travel to another team's home arena to watch him go against other prospects. We do know that GP likes to conduct a "second interview' before he hires him.
So far it looks like an agent thing with Monroe. He is only working out individually for the Jazz as well. If he was willing to do a group workout I don't see a reason why he wouldn't have been included in our big-man group workout.

It isn't necessarily a huge issue, but I can sort of understand why he is doing it. Monroe is in a crowded group of bigs once you get past Favors and Cousins, so he might be afraid that if he doesn't do as well rebounding and in the post against some of the other prospects that he could drop down.
 
#41
It isn't necessarily a huge issue, but I can sort of understand why he is doing it. Monroe is in a crowded group of bigs once you get past Favors and Cousins, so he might be afraid that if he doesn't do as well rebounding and in the post against some of the other prospects that he could drop down.
I find that about as impressive as pleading the fifth amendment, and would hope that it usually backfires.

Maybe he can work out against furniture like Yi Jianlian did. :D That guy may not be much of an NBA player, but he's always put chairs to shame on either end of the floor.

NBA GMs: please wise up, at least if you're picking after #4. Agents aren't your friends.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#42
I believe that Petrie brought in Evan, Jennings, Flynn, Curry, and one other to sacramento for a group workout. Thats the workout where Evans was able to guard all the others, but no one was able to guard him.

More than that, in the month before the draft Tyreke was openly calling for 1 on 1 workouts against any of the top prospects who would dare to show up. At the time I took it for arrogant grandstanding trying to get some attention, but of course as it turns out it was very saavy -- he knew that his game was tailor made for that kind of competition and nobody was going to be able to stop him 1 on 1, and he punished everybody he faces all the way into the Top 4.

Monroe though...that's kind of sad. I understand when big shotblocking/rebounding types dodge these type of things because what they do shows up 5 on 5, not in drills and 1 on 1 stuff. But Monroe is a skill player, outside of the passing, if he can't show in 1 on 1 type drills, where exactly can he show? That's conceding you're a roleplayer who needs others to set you up before you even start.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#43
Just curious.

I got a little bit confused by your pronouncement. Correct me if I am wrong, but my impression is - if you were to pick you want Hayward more than Johnson to wear the Kings uniform this coming season. And I find it a little bit absurd that you are saying Hayward has winner written all over him, as if you consider him the better player than the top 5 ( or 6 ) pick Wesley Johnson.

Without regard to what place in the draft we are picking or if we are to draft one of the two only, who between Wesley Johnson and Gordon Hayward do you want to see wearing the Kings uniform next season and why?

Wesley Johnson - FG% (50.2), 3P% ( 29.4), FT% ( 82.9 )
Gordon Hayward - FG% (46.4), 3P% ( 41.5 ), FT% ( 77.2 )

I consider you as one of those knowledgeable people in this board when it comes to basketball. Maybe you can share your reason why you are so high on this Hayward kid to the point of seemingly ignoring the fact Wesley Johnson is the top 5-6 concensus pick.
Well, at no charge ;)I'm going to give you unsolicited my philosophy on evaluating players. First, stats for me are secondary. I go by what I see on the floor, first and foremost. I give my own eyeballs the benefit of the doubt, not the draft boards, stats, analysis, or other people's opinions. Stats and analysis are after the fact. So what is "the fact", you ask? You're own initial impressions of the player. The raw sensory data, which translates to intuition, or "gut". Analysis, more than anything, is just the rationalization of what your gut tells you most of the time. And it's my belief that the more you analyze, the further you get from the truth about a player. Stats are the same. A guy "looks good" and you go to the stats to verify it or not. You don't believe your own senses. Stats can be as much of a crutch as anything else. Also, in the same vein, I don't typically like to "compare" one player to another. Again, that's a crutch. You don't trust what your gut tells you so you have to justify it by asking who the player resembles in the NBA that's good or not. We saw that with Tyreke last year. People couldn't handle Tyreke as Tyreke. They just HAD to compare him to someone else. But the more they did, the further they got from the truth about Tyreke. The guys who had it right about Tyreke didn't have to go further than one thing: "The guy has it". No analysis. No stats. No comparison. "The guy has it". Period. End of story.

As far as "consensus" is concerned, that's the average of other people's opinions. I don't care about that. To be very pejorative, that's arrogance on my part. At the end of the day, I could care less what consensus is. That's because I'm not going to surrender my own judgement to anybody, even though I fully acknowledge that I could be and have been totally wrong. My eyeballs showed me a guy in Hayward that can take the game over at big moments and isn't afraid at all of taking the big shot. They showed me a "presence" on the floor that Johnson just didn't have. To me, he has "it". Who jumped out on the screen in the big games? Was it Hayward or Johnson? For me, it was Hayward much more than Johnson. I just can't ignore that, otherwise I'm ignoring my own best judgement.
 
#44
Well, at no charge ;)I'm going to give you unsolicited my philosophy on evaluating players. First, stats for me are secondary. I go by what I see on the floor, first and foremost. I give my own eyeballs the benefit of the doubt, not the draft boards, stats, analysis, or other people's opinions. Stats and analysis are after the fact. So what is "the fact", you ask? You're own initial impressions of the player. The raw sensory data, which translates to intuition, or "gut". Analysis, more than anything, is just the rationalization of what your gut tells you most of the time. And it's my belief that the more you analyze, the further you get from the truth about a player. Stats are the same. A guy "looks good" and you go to the stats to verify it or not. You don't believe your own senses. Stats can be as much of a crutch as anything else. Also, in the same vein, I don't typically like to "compare" one player to another. Again, that's a crutch. You don't trust what your gut tells you so you have to justify it by asking who the player resembles in the NBA that's good or not. We saw that with Tyreke last year. People couldn't handle Tyreke as Tyreke. They just HAD to compare him to someone else. But the more they did, the further they got from the truth about Tyreke. The guys who had it right about Tyreke didn't have to go further than one thing: "The guy has it". No analysis. No stats. No comparison. "The guy has it". Period. End of story.

As far as "consensus" is concerned, that's the average of other people's opinions. I don't care about that. To be very pejorative, that's arrogance on my part. At the end of the day, I could care less what consensus is. That's because I'm not going to surrender my own judgement to anybody, even though I fully acknowledge that I could be and have been totally wrong. My eyeballs showed me a guy in Hayward that can take the game over at big moments and isn't afraid at all of taking the big shot. They showed me a "presence" on the floor that Johnson just didn't have. To me, he has "it". Who jumped out on the screen in the big games? Was it Hayward or Johnson? For me, it was Hayward much more than Johnson. I just can't ignore that, otherwise I'm ignoring my own best judgement.
I am impressed with your thorough explanation. Very revealing of how you assess things. You are the man.
 
#45
Well, at no charge ;)I'm going to give you unsolicited my philosophy on evaluating players. First, stats for me are secondary. I go by what I see on the floor, first and foremost. I give my own eyeballs the benefit of the doubt, not the draft boards, stats, analysis, or other people's opinions. Stats and analysis are after the fact. So what is "the fact", you ask? You're own initial impressions of the player. The raw sensory data, which translates to intuition, or "gut". Analysis, more than anything, is just the rationalization of what your gut tells you most of the time. And it's my belief that the more you analyze, the further you get from the truth about a player. Stats are the same. A guy "looks good" and you go to the stats to verify it or not. You don't believe your own senses. Stats can be as much of a crutch as anything else. Also, in the same vein, I don't typically like to "compare" one player to another. Again, that's a crutch. You don't trust what your gut tells you so you have to justify it by asking who the player resembles in the NBA that's good or not. We saw that with Tyreke last year. People couldn't handle Tyreke as Tyreke. They just HAD to compare him to someone else. But the more they did, the further they got from the truth about Tyreke. The guys who had it right about Tyreke didn't have to go further than one thing: "The guy has it". No analysis. No stats. No comparison. "The guy has it". Period. End of story.

As far as "consensus" is concerned, that's the average of other people's opinions. I don't care about that. To be very pejorative, that's arrogance on my part. At the end of the day, I could care less what consensus is. That's because I'm not going to surrender my own judgement to anybody, even though I fully acknowledge that I could be and have been totally wrong. My eyeballs showed me a guy in Hayward that can take the game over at big moments and isn't afraid at all of taking the big shot. They showed me a "presence" on the floor that Johnson just didn't have. To me, he has "it". Who jumped out on the screen in the big games? Was it Hayward or Johnson? For me, it was Hayward much more than Johnson. I just can't ignore that, otherwise I'm ignoring my own best judgement.

The "it" feeling only goes so far. And in fact it only means anything at all if the player in question has transferable skills and physical attributes. Many guys were tagged as having "it" in the college game (and indeed Europe) - Adam Morrison being a prime example. That's why you cannot rely solely on what you see at the college level and at face value. You absolutely HAVE to look deeper than that to get a good read on a guy.

You could easily argue that Luke Harangoody has "it". In most of the games I've seen he appears to have it. Outplays better and bigger prospects. Has a fiery drive. Rebounds, scores. Yet despite what he actually does, and despite his (relative) domination, my head over-rules my gut and tells me that he's not going to be a difference-maker on the next level. Of course, I could be wrong, but I sincerely doubt it. Without blowing my own trumper, I think I'm pretty good at evaluating young talent. Harangoody, at best, will be an energy-provider in limited minutes.

Looking at athletic ability, background, character, measurements etc., they all can be valuable. I'm not saying they're more important than games, but they are important. Watching our very own Tyreke Evans last year, I wasn't sure exactly what he'd be like in the Pros. The dribble-drive offense looked awful, he consistently drove into traffic and took poor shots. He was trigger happy from the outside. He made some poor decisions with the ball. Yet if you looked past that, looked at his physical dominance, his size and power, his family structure, his ability to put the ball on the floor, get to the hoop, defend and rebound, you could see that this clearly was a guy who could become something much more than his college play indicated. And that's how it turned out. In his first year in the NBA, in a much MUCH better league, Evans far out-performed himself from the preceding year. Who would have guessed it? BTW, not many at all said Tyreke "had it" last year. In fact, I think you'll struggle to find anyone who said he "has it" before we drafted him, expert or not. There were too many unknowns about how his game would translate. Obviously all those questions have been answered now.

It's reasons such as this that you simply CANNOT simply rely on the visual evidence that takes place on the court. You can't. Too many variables. Too many things unsure. You have to look past that. Anyone making decisions based purely on their gut simply isn't going to be right too much of the time.

Analysis is quite important. It allows you to break down each part of a players game - his weaknesses and his strengths. Things that are often over-shadowed by a more prominent facet of skills in college. Things that could be absolutely detrimental to a young guy's chances of getting PT at the next level. Things that you might never notice unless you actively looked out for it during a game (which isn't going to happen if you want a read on all aspects of a players ability).

I agree with you about comparisons. They are the least relevant part of the whole draft build-up. I guess people just need to put a tag on players. I remember people were comparing Tyreke to Larry Hughes last year, even though that comparison never really had too much behind it. Of course, people inevitably linked Tyreke to laziness and injuries and being over-paid. It's certainly the silliest part of it, and rarely are they right to any significant degree.

As for Hayward, I've seen very little of him. Which may make the following somewhat of a gamble, but I'll bet you a signature of your (and mine) choice that Johnson will be a far better player than Hayward down the line. Might have to wait a couple years for us to find out the result, but I'll still be around. Unless of course you weren't saying Hayward will be better. In which case, I retract my bet. :p
 
#46
The "it" feeling only goes so far. And in fact it only means anything at all if the player in question has transferable skills and physical attributes. Many guys were tagged as having "it" in the college game (and indeed Europe) - Adam Morrison being a prime example. That's why you cannot rely solely on what you see at the college level and at face value. You absolutely HAVE to look deeper than that to get a good read on a guy.

You could easily argue that Luke Harangoody has "it". In most of the games I've seen he appears to have it. Outplays better and bigger prospects. Has a fiery drive. Rebounds, scores. Yet despite what he actually does, and despite his (relative) domination, my head over-rules my gut and tells me that he's not going to be a difference-maker on the next level. Of course, I could be wrong, but I sincerely doubt it. Without blowing my own trumper, I think I'm pretty good at evaluating young talent. Harangoody, at best, will be an energy-provider in limited minutes.

Looking at athletic ability, background, character, measurements etc., they all can be valuable. I'm not saying they're more important than games, but they are important. Watching our very own Tyreke Evans last year, I wasn't sure exactly what he'd be like in the Pros. The dribble-drive offense looked awful, he consistently drove into traffic and took poor shots. He was trigger happy from the outside. He made some poor decisions with the ball. Yet if you looked past that, looked at his physical dominance, his size and power, his family structure, his ability to put the ball on the floor, get to the hoop, defend and rebound, you could see that this clearly was a guy who could become something much more than his college play indicated. And that's how it turned out. In his first year in the NBA, in a much MUCH better league, Evans far out-performed himself from the preceding year. Who would have guessed it? BTW, not many at all said Tyreke "had it" last year. In fact, I think you'll struggle to find anyone who said he "has it" before we drafted him, expert or not. There were too many unknowns about how his game would translate. Obviously all those questions have been answered now.

It's reasons such as this that you simply CANNOT simply rely on the visual evidence that takes place on the court. You can't. Too many variables. Too many things unsure. You have to look past that. Anyone making decisions based purely on their gut simply isn't going to be right too much of the time.

Analysis is quite important. It allows you to break down each part of a players game - his weaknesses and his strengths. Things that are often over-shadowed by a more prominent facet of skills in college. Things that could be absolutely detrimental to a young guy's chances of getting PT at the next level. Things that you might never notice unless you actively looked out for it during a game (which isn't going to happen if you want a read on all aspects of a players ability).

I agree with you about comparisons. They are the least relevant part of the whole draft build-up. I guess people just need to put a tag on players. I remember people were comparing Tyreke to Larry Hughes last year, even though that comparison never really had too much behind it. Of course, people inevitably linked Tyreke to laziness and injuries and being over-paid. It's certainly the silliest part of it, and rarely are they right to any significant degree.

As for Hayward, I've seen very little of him. Which may make the following somewhat of a gamble, but I'll bet you a signature of your (and mine) choice that Johnson will be a far better player than Hayward down the line. Might have to wait a couple years for us to find out the result, but I'll still be around. Unless of course you weren't saying Hayward will be better. In which case, I retract my bet. :p
But how do you appraise the player's "gut" which, in my opinion, is a significant factor in success but hard to read unless you live with the guy. Just curious, because both you and your fellow poster make very good posts.
 
#47
But how do you appraise the player's "gut" which, in my opinion, is a significant factor in success but hard to read unless you live with the guy. Just curious, because both you and your fellow poster make very good posts.

I suppose it is a combination of things. How they conduct themselves on the court (and how they perform and the manner in which they carry out said performance), as well as background checks, interviews, workouts etc. What you asked is harder to determine, which is why there are always surprise guys in every draft who turn out far better than anticipated. It's not always straight-forward to pinpoint every aspect of both a players skill level and their mental make-up. But it always helps to try.
 
#48
More than that, in the month before the draft Tyreke was openly calling for 1 on 1 workouts against any of the top prospects who would dare to show up. At the time I took it for arrogant grandstanding trying to get some attention, but of course as it turns out it was very saavy -- he knew that his game was tailor made for that kind of competition and nobody was going to be able to stop him 1 on 1, and he punished everybody he faces all the way into the Top 4.

Monroe though...that's kind of sad. I understand when big shotblocking/rebounding types dodge these type of things because what they do shows up 5 on 5, not in drills and 1 on 1 stuff. But Monroe is a skill player, outside of the passing, if he can't show in 1 on 1 type drills, where exactly can he show? That's conceding you're a roleplayer who needs others to set you up before you even start.
I think its more a reflection that his agent already thinks he's separated himself from that tier of big men. Some of the online draft boards may disagree, but I think he's the clear third big behind Cousins and Favors so he has nothing to gain from playing Udoh, Davis, Aldrich and those guys.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#49
Kingster said:
As far as "consensus" is concerned, that's the average of other people's opinions. I don't care about that. To be very pejorative, that's arrogance on my part. At the end of the day, I could care less what consensus is. That's because I'm not going to surrender my own judgement to anybody, even though I fully acknowledge that I could be and have been totally wrong. My eyeballs showed me a guy in Hayward that can take the game over at big moments and isn't afraid at all of taking the big shot. They showed me a "presence" on the floor that Johnson just didn't have. To me, he has "it". Who jumped out on the screen in the big games? Was it Hayward or Johnson? For me, it was Hayward much more than Johnson. I just can't ignore that, otherwise I'm ignoring my own best judgement.
First of all, I don't think its arrogance to stick your own opinion. At least you know where it came from. When looking at polls, or the opinions of pundits, I'm not sure if I'm getting first hand infomation or second hand information. Now how much I might value your opinion or anyone else's, depends on how often you or anyone else actually saw a player play.

If I watch a player play in 15 games and someone that only saw him once or twice trys to convince me that I'm wrong about that player, They're probably going to fail. You can watch a player play one time and you may just catch him playing his worse game of the year, or his best game of the year. No player is going to be perfect every time out. Especially in college where there are so many variables.

Personally, I try to see a player no less than five times a season. I'm usually able to see the top players somewhere between 12 and 20 times. When the player is in one of the lesser conferences it becomes more difficult. Sometimes you luck out and his team makes the tourney, and so you get to see him at least once more, maybe twice if your lucky. But I can't look anyone in the eye and give an complete opinion about a player after seeing them just once or twice.

Having said all that, there are exceptions. John Wall is one of those. The first time I saw him play it was obvious he could do things that others couldn't. He simply leaped out of the TV at you. Turner is another one where it didn't take much viewing to realize that he was special. That brings me to Johnson.

He isn't the type of player that leaps out at you. I once said in a post on my college thread, that sometimes you don't seem to notice him on the floor, but there at the end of the game, he sits with 21 points 10 rebounds, 2 steals and a couple of assists. His problem, if you want to call it a problem, is that he's such a smooth, graceful athlete that it just seems effortless when you watch him. If I would call Hayward the baby faced assassin, then I would call Johnson the quiet assassin. Personally I would take Johnson over Hayward. Thats not a knock on Hayward. I just think Johnson has more upside and right now is a better player. But there are some intangibles that Hayward brings to the table that I really like. Babbitt is another one that brings a lot of those intangibles. One of the better off balance shooters in the draft. And he's one tough kid to boot. Too bad we can't draft them all.
 
#50
I think its more a reflection that his agent already thinks he's separated himself from that tier of big men. Some of the online draft boards may disagree, but I think he's the clear third big behind Cousins and Favors so he has nothing to gain from playing Udoh, Davis, Aldrich and those guys.
Yeah, I would say that the mock drafts disagree, they mostly have Cousins going at #5, with Aminu and Aldrich as major contenders at 6 and 7. Out of 22 recently updated mocks, Monroe is never picked in the top 4, 4 times at #5, 5 times at #6, 8 times at #7, 2 times at #8, and 3 times at #9 or later. http://dcprosportsreport.com/NBAMocks.htm

I'm not saying that the mocks are correct predictions of draft night, anything much past the top 3 is questionable. But I do think they indicate that Monroe does indeed have something to prove, at least at the level of public perception.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#51
Yeah, I would say that the mock drafts disagree, they mostly have Cousins going at #5, with Aminu and Aldrich as major contenders at 6 and 7. Out of 22 recently updated mocks, Monroe is never picked in the top 4, 4 times at #5, 5 times at #6, 8 times at #7, 2 times at #8, and 3 times at #9 or later. http://dcprosportsreport.com/NBAMocks.htm

I'm not saying that the mocks are correct predictions of draft night, anything much past the top 3 is questionable. But I do think they indicate that Monroe does indeed have something to prove, at least at the level of public perception.
I agree with you that he's not the clear choice behind Cousins and Favors. I also disagree that he has nothing to gain by getting involved in a multiplayer workout. By the same token he probably has something to lose by getting involved. The knock on him is his lack of athleticism and percieved softness. By going up against some of the players that are competing for lottery spots he could have helped himself. By not getting involved it could be percieved that he's ducking such competition.

Now to be fair to him, he could have had prior commitments. It will be interesting to see if he does any multiplayer workouts between now and the draft.
 
#52
Yeah, I would say that the mock drafts disagree, they mostly have Cousins going at #5, with Aminu and Aldrich as major contenders at 6 and 7. Out of 22 recently updated mocks, Monroe is never picked in the top 4, 4 times at #5, 5 times at #6, 8 times at #7, 2 times at #8, and 3 times at #9 or later. http://dcprosportsreport.com/NBAMocks.htm

I'm not saying that the mocks are correct predictions of draft night, anything much past the top 3 is questionable. But I do think they indicate that Monroe does indeed have something to prove, at least at the level of public perception.
A) Public perception means close to nothing. Mock draft sites feed us their thoughts and projections, but it rarely has much to do with what the decision makers think. Because the decision makers don't share what they think.

B) That said, if he is going mostly 7 or higher, that means for the most part I'm right even in those sims. After the Wall/Favors/Turner/Cousins foursome he's in competition with Wesley Johnson and Aminu for those 5/6/7 spots. Maybe Aldrich is higher on a board or two, but I'm guessing those two wings are the guys slotted higher on most of those. So he's still the 3rd big off the board in most people's eyes and doesn't have much to gain working out against Aldrich/Udoh/Davis/Patterson.

BTW - I'm not saying that its a brilliant strategy, I'm just saying that's my guess about what his agent thinks, as opposed to "Greg Monroe is scared of those guys".
 
#53
Yeah, I would say that the mock drafts disagree, they mostly have Cousins going at #5, with Aminu and Aldrich as major contenders at 6 and 7. Out of 22 recently updated mocks, Monroe is never picked in the top 4, 4 times at #5, 5 times at #6, 8 times at #7, 2 times at #8, and 3 times at #9 or later. http://dcprosportsreport.com/NBAMocks.htm

I'm not saying that the mocks are correct predictions of draft night, anything much past the top 3 is questionable. But I do think they indicate that Monroe does indeed have something to prove, at least at the level of public perception.
Unless you're a guaranteed top 3 pick and have already solidified your spot in the lottery, you need workout with teams and try to move up as much as possible. The players that work out against chairs, have agent-ran workouts, or doesn't want to workout against other players raises big red flags. Proceed cautiously with those players. Monroe might come back for a group workout like Tyreke did, so we'll see.
 
#54
After the Wall/Favors/Turner/Cousins foursome he's in competition with Wesley Johnson and Aminu for those 5/6/7 spots.
A digression: actually, Johnson is currently projected to go at #4, and most mocks have us taking Cousins at #5. (I happen to find Cousins at #5 doubtful, since Geoff never signs anyone he hasn't worked out, and Cousins has yet to be asked to Arco, but we'll see.)
 
#57
The "it" feeling only goes so far. And in fact it only means anything at all if the player in question has transferable skills and physical attributes. Many guys were tagged as having "it" in the college game (and indeed Europe) - Adam Morrison being a prime example. That's why you cannot rely solely on what you see at the college level and at face value. You absolutely HAVE to look deeper than that to get a good read on a guy.

You could easily argue that Luke Harangoody has "it". In most of the games I've seen he appears to have it. Outplays better and bigger prospects. Has a fiery drive. Rebounds, scores. Yet despite what he actually does, and despite his (relative) domination, my head over-rules my gut and tells me that he's not going to be a difference-maker on the next level. Of course, I could be wrong, but I sincerely doubt it. Without blowing my own trumper, I think I'm pretty good at evaluating young talent. Harangoody, at best, will be an energy-provider in limited minutes.

Looking at athletic ability, background, character, measurements etc., they all can be valuable. I'm not saying they're more important than games, but they are important. Watching our very own Tyreke Evans last year, I wasn't sure exactly what he'd be like in the Pros. The dribble-drive offense looked awful, he consistently drove into traffic and took poor shots. He was trigger happy from the outside. He made some poor decisions with the ball. Yet if you looked past that, looked at his physical dominance, his size and power, his family structure, his ability to put the ball on the floor, get to the hoop, defend and rebound, you could see that this clearly was a guy who could become something much more than his college play indicated. And that's how it turned out. In his first year in the NBA, in a much MUCH better league, Evans far out-performed himself from the preceding year. Who would have guessed it? BTW, not many at all said Tyreke "had it" last year. In fact, I think you'll struggle to find anyone who said he "has it" before we drafted him, expert or not. There were too many unknowns about how his game would translate. Obviously all those questions have been answered now.

It's reasons such as this that you simply CANNOT simply rely on the visual evidence that takes place on the court. You can't. Too many variables. Too many things unsure. You have to look past that. Anyone making decisions based purely on their gut simply isn't going to be right too much of the time.

Analysis is quite important. It allows you to break down each part of a players game - his weaknesses and his strengths. Things that are often over-shadowed by a more prominent facet of skills in college. Things that could be absolutely detrimental to a young guy's chances of getting PT at the next level. Things that you might never notice unless you actively looked out for it during a game (which isn't going to happen if you want a read on all aspects of a players ability).

I agree with you about comparisons. They are the least relevant part of the whole draft build-up. I guess people just need to put a tag on players. I remember people were comparing Tyreke to Larry Hughes last year, even though that comparison never really had too much behind it. Of course, people inevitably linked Tyreke to laziness and injuries and being over-paid. It's certainly the silliest part of it, and rarely are they right to any significant degree.

As for Hayward, I've seen very little of him. Which may make the following somewhat of a gamble, but I'll bet you a signature of your (and mine) choice that Johnson will be a far better player than Hayward down the line. Might have to wait a couple years for us to find out the result, but I'll still be around. Unless of course you weren't saying Hayward will be better. In which case, I retract my bet. :p
More impressive.

And I agree that you have to take into account so many things and not just the "it" factor in comparing players - for that "it" factor is oftentimes biased and misleading, especially if a lot of people think otherwise.

But I think you have to agree with me that although it is not a very good virtue having the mentality of " not going to surrender my own judgement to anybody", it does make a man " The MAN ".
 
#59
From Chad Ford

"On Friday, they (Utah) brought in Georgetown big man Greg Monroe for a solo workout. Monroe's agent, David Falk, will let Monroe work out against only Cousins or Favors."

So he'll work out against guys, but only those they perceive as projected higher than him. I doubt Favors or Cousins will work out against him either. Not because they're afraid, but because they have nothing to gain.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/blog?name=nba_draft&id=5260049
 
#60
"On Friday, they (Utah) brought in Georgetown big man Greg Monroe for a solo workout. Monroe's agent, David Falk, will let Monroe work out against only Cousins or Favors."

So he'll work out against guys, but only those they perceive as projected higher than him. I doubt Favors or Cousins will work out against him either. Not because they're afraid, but because they have nothing to gain.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/blog?name=nba_draft&id=5260049
Yeah they would be dumb to work out against him. But occasionally I do like to see players that'll work out against anybody in the draft. It's nice to see a bit of confidence in some people every now n then, as opposed to just hearing them or their agents talk