Kings do not pick up Giles and Caleb team options for next year!

From today’s Bee:
“Walton says Giles will get a chance to play in a game again when the coaching staff is satisfied he’s working hard enough in practice.”

Read more here: https://www.sacbee.com/sports/nba/sacramento-kings/article237062109.html#storylink=cpy
That reads as a nasty shot at Giles but it's also obviously paraphrased so it would be nice to see what was really said along with the context. I find it hard to believe Giles isn't working hard but I don't find it hard to believe that he may be making dumb mistakes that would make it a liability in game (mostly fouling a ton).

Also if he were remotely game shape, is Stockton an option or not because he's third year?
 
The actual quote from Luke was so benign..."minutes are earned in practice", yada, yada, yada. I hate to speculate on injuries, but I'll do it anyway (haha). Taking everything as a whole, it seems that this is something of a Kawhi/Spurs type situation. Not as divisive, of course, but it seems the team thinks he is fit to play. Anyway, given Luke's quotes on the matter since camp, I think the "not working hard enough" narrative would be more aptly defined as "not competing hard enough"--avoiding scrimmages and contact drills, stuff like that.
 
I find it hard to believe that he's not working hard. This smells like BS, but we'll see. If the Kings are spinning a damaging, false narrative against him I'd expect a reactionary social media post from him or some sort of ambiguous words in an interview.
 
This is unbelievable Kangz. I never use that term and always ignored it, but seems to fit best here.

Kangz = things looking good....aim gun at foot and pull trigger
 
I am with the crowd (maybe small group of posters?) that think this paraphrase is out of context. Walton has no need to call out Giles in this way and he is known as a players coach, so it doesn't make sense on that level either. My take is that the quote is around being "up to speed," "being able to work at 100% in practice," not that he isn't "working hard enough."

Bottom line, I refuse to get my undergarments in a ruffle over this.
 
Maybe there was a disconnect in the things Giles worked on and what the team wanted him to work on.
Someone who has spent the last 6+ years (early high school!) on rehab focused workouts may have a lower tolerance of what a healthy professional offseason workout program entails.
 
I am with the crowd (maybe small group of posters?) that think this paraphrase is out of context. Walton has no need to call out Giles in this way and he is known as a players coach, so it doesn't make sense on that level either. My take is that the quote is around being "up to speed," "being able to work at 100% in practice," not that he isn't "working hard enough."

Bottom line, I refuse to get my undergarments in a ruffle over this.
Agreed. Let's not forget that Luke came from under the Zen Master, Phil Jackson coaching tree. Phil Jackson was Luke's coach when he was with the Lakers. Phil would take these small public jabs at his players to prod them into getting mad and working harder.

While I'm not sure how bad or inflammatory Luke's comments were about Giles, but he may be trying to light a fire under Giles to push it a little harder, to get him ready to play?
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
I think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions. Since the Bee has this behind a paywall - and I refuse to give them so much as a dime - I can't see the actual article but Sactown ExPat makes an excellent point.

The actual quote from Luke was so benign..."minutes are earned in practice", yada, yada, yada. I hate to speculate on injuries, but I'll do it anyway (haha). Taking everything as a whole, it seems that this is something of a Kawhi/Spurs type situation. Not as divisive, of course, but it seems the team thinks he is fit to play. Anyway, given Luke's quotes on the matter since camp, I think the "not working hard enough" narrative would be more aptly defined as "not competing hard enough"--avoiding scrimmages and contact drills, stuff like that.
It's so easy to make assumptions about partial comments or paraphrasing. Before we build the gallows, maybe we should examine the facts?
 
For now, Harry is still a Kings player. He will most likely be with the team until the end of the season, if not longer. He still has an opportunity to convince and grow with 70+ games remaining this season. The coaches and front office want to win and it's his job to convince them he can help with that.
 
For now, Harry is still a Kings player. He will most likely be with the team until the end of the season, if not longer. He still has an opportunity to convince and grow with 70+ games remaining this season. The coaches and front office want to win and it's his job to convince them he can help with that.
That's understandable. But when the cost is $4 million to lock him up for 5 more years of team control (one year guaranteed followed by restricted free agency and the ability to match any 4 year deal) and the alternative we have chosen means that we have now become the only team in the league who cannot offer him more than $4 million next season, what they're saying doesn't actually match reality. Either accidentally or by design, we have made it so any amount of success this season will guarantee he's playing for a different team next season. That's why it only makes sense if they've given up on him as a player. Saying this is meant as incentive for him to play harder is either BS or our front office is about to pull another Gerald Wallace and dump a young player for nothing because they overlooked a fairly obvious detail.

Basically, anyone who was banking on Harry's potential as a way that this team can reasonably improve in the future just had a giant wrench thrown into that theory. That's one more piece of the core gone, one more first round pick wasted. If Marvin Bagley doesn't turn out to be a superstar now, we're well on our way to being capped out as a borderline playoff team.
 
I think that Bee quote is out of context. Here I think is the quote, also from the BEE (https://www.sacbee.com/sports/nba/sacramento-kings/article237020694.html):

“Minutes are earned in practice and that’s where it’s unfortunate that he’s missed so much time, because he hasn’t had the opportunity to earn minutes,” Walton said. “As he gets healthier and healthier and continues to practice and make plays, has an understanding of the offense, then he’ll earn those minutes. “We’re excited to be having him come back but we also completely understand that it’s not like he comes back and he’s in the rotation. You gotta earn that on the practice floor first."
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
Well, looks like the anti-Giles PR campaign has begun. Not a good look.
maybe Giles feels he's entitled to playing time despite outworking the man in front of him? We don't know what happens behind closed doors but if Giles' work ethic isn't what we expect, then he doesn't deserve court time.
 
That's understandable. But when the cost is $4 million to lock him up for 5 more years of team control (one year guaranteed followed by restricted free agency and the ability to match any 4 year deal) and the alternative we have chosen means that we have now become the only team in the league who cannot offer him more than $4 million next season, what they're saying doesn't actually match reality. Either accidentally or by design, we have made it so any amount of success this season will guarantee he's playing for a different team next season. That's why it only makes sense if they've given up on him as a player. Saying this is meant as incentive for him to play harder is either BS or our front office is about to pull another Gerald Wallace and dump a young player for nothing because they overlooked a fairly obvious detail.

Basically, anyone who was banking on Harry's potential as a way that this team can reasonably improve in the future just had a giant wrench thrown into that theory. That's one more piece of the core gone, one more first round pick wasted. If Marvin Bagley doesn't turn out to be a superstar now, we're well on our way to being capped out as a borderline playoff team.
Also fine but there are several ways of looking at this:

'Kings did not extend contract of frequently injured player yet to show anything'

'Kings will not have control of player with potential but no track record'

'Kings are dumb because Harry has superstar potential that he will have to reach somewhere else'

My views belong closer to the first. The others might end up being closer to reality but they also might not. I do not think that the first choice is without merit. The second choice also has merit but based on what I have seen on court first is personally more appealing. I would argue the third choice is based, so far, on fantasy.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
I think that Bee quote is out of context. Here I think is the quote, also from the BEE (https://www.sacbee.com/sports/nba/sacramento-kings/article237020694.html):

“Minutes are earned in practice and that’s where it’s unfortunate that he’s missed so much time, because he hasn’t had the opportunity to earn minutes,” Walton said. “As he gets healthier and healthier and continues to practice and make plays, has an understanding of the offense, then he’ll earn those minutes. “We’re excited to be having him come back but we also completely understand that it’s not like he comes back and he’s in the rotation. You gotta earn that on the practice floor first."
Thank you. Amazing how putting a comment into context changes things. I hope all those who were so quick to criticize Walton can back off a little.
 
Thank you. Amazing how putting a comment into context changes things. I hope all those who were so quick to criticize Walton can back off a little.
That's from a different article than the paraphrase I posted, but by the same author. Seems odd the author would paraphrase the quote like that, but... (shrugs)
 
Regardless of how you look at this, none of it is good news.

If he's not working hard and has fallen out of favor then it was a blown draft pick.
If his knees are truly in shambles and he can't stay healthy, it was a blown draft pick.
If he comes back this year, works hard, and looks really good........some smart team is going to pay him more than 4 Million next year and the Kings then lose control over a player that did turn out to be a good pick.

All 3 scenarios suck.
 
Also fine but there are several ways of looking at this:

'Kings did not extend contract of frequently injured player yet to show anything'

'Kings will not have control of player with potential but no track record'

'Kings are dumb because Harry has superstar potential that he will have to reach somewhere else'

My views belong closer to the first. The others might end up being closer to reality but they also might not. I do not think that the first choice is without merit. The second choice also has merit but based on what I have seen on court first is personally more appealing. I would argue the third choice is based, so far, on fantasy.
Right but this also means stepping away from the "Harry Giles was the best player in his class and if he can get healthy then the Kings may have another potential star to develop" narrative and admitting that the pick was wasted. I'm all for adjusting to the most recent results but you can't give Vlade credit for drafting him while simultaneously saying it's no big loss because he's injured all the time anyway. That's exactly why so many people didn't draft him in the first place. What we've done now is remove any chance of that investment paying off in the future. I don't see that as an improvement.

The same exact thing happened with Papagiannis. We were told that it was unfair to judge him by his first few years and that we should give him a chance to prove himself and then when he was cut before the end of his roookie contract it was no big loss because he wasn't any good anyway. Drafting players is an investment. If you don't do your homework you end up wasting the assets that are supposed to secure the future of the team. We're not a team that can get away with missing on first round picks in consecutive years. And some of these misses were on multiple players in the same draft. I think it's a mischaracterization to suggest that fans are upset because they've been deluded enough to believe that a guy we've seen in 5 minute stints off the bench will be a superstar. I tried to give Vlade the benefit of the doubt on this one and we've been fed a stream of publicity from the usual hype men and women that something special was coming down the line. For this to end in "yeah, he is who we thought he was from the beginning... a terrific talent whose knees are shot" is marginally disappointing.

That barely even moves the needle for me at this point though. Alright, we missed on another pick. What else is new. I'm more upset that they're still trying to spin this. Seriously could they have any less respect for their fans at this point? You won't pick up a $4 million option for 5 years of control and yet he's still a part of the future and we just want him to earn his playing time? Even Papagiannis got his option picked up and there's no point at which he looked better than awful in a Kings uniform. Giles isn't even a trade asset now. Declining the option gives his current contact negative value for the reasons outlined above. Once you step off the magical merry go round it all sounds pretty ridiculous. Credibility counts for a lot with me and I think it does for players, agents, and other front office personnel too. If you're caught in an obvious lie and then double down on it, why would we continue listening to you? If you read through the rest of this thread, I think more people are upset about the spin applied than the actual facts.
 

Warhawk

The cake is a lie.
Staff member
I think he has integrity. I've never seen him tailor his opinion to the mood of the day.
Psh. Not based on my experiences with him working with Crown Downtown (I was a founding member and he came in to help us on a project). I actively avoid him at this point. Can't stand him and he has me blocked on Twitter because he can't take criticism when I called him on his crap.

Not trying to derail the thread - just tying to provide some context. Carry on.
 
Right but this also means stepping away from the "Harry Giles was the best player in his class and if he can get healthy then the Kings may have another potential star to develop" narrative and admitting that the pick was wasted. I'm all for adjusting to the most recent results but you can't give Vlade credit for drafting him while simultaneously saying it's no big loss because he's injured all the time anyway. That's exactly why so many people didn't draft him in the first place. What we've done now is remove any chance of that investment paying off in the future. I don't see that as an improvement.

The same exact thing happened with Papagiannis. We were told that it was unfair to judge him by his first few years and that we should give him a chance to prove himself and then when he was cut before the end of his roookie contract it was no big loss because he wasn't any good anyway. Drafting players is an investment. If you don't do your homework you end up wasting the assets that are supposed to secure the future of the team. We're not a team that can get away with missing on first round picks in consecutive years. And some of these misses were on multiple players in the same draft. I think it's a mischaracterization to suggest that fans are upset because they've been deluded enough to believe that a guy we've seen in 5 minute stints off the bench will be a superstar. I tried to give Vlade the benefit of the doubt on this one and we've been fed a stream of publicity from the usual hype men and women that something special was coming down the line. For this to end in "yeah, he is who we thought he was from the beginning... a terrific talent who's knees are shot" is marginally disappointing.

That barely even moves the needle for me at this point though. Alright, we missed on another pick. What else is new. I'm more upset that they're still trying to spin this. Seriously could they have any less respect for their fans at this point? You won't pick up a $4 million option for 5 years of control and yet he's still a part of the future and we just want him to earn his playing time? Even Papagiannis got his option picked up and there's not point at which he looked better than awful in a Kings uniform. Giles isn't even a trade asset now. Declining the option gives his current contact negative value for the reasons outlined above. Once you step off the magical merry go round it all sounds pretty ridiculous. Credibility counts for a lot with me and I think it does for players, agents, and other front office personnel too. If you're caught in an obvious lie and then double down on it, why would we continue listening to you? If you read through the rest of this thread, I think more people are upset about the spin applied than the actual facts.
I don't completely agree re admitting the pick was wasted. You do not make 2016's draft picks in 2019 with three additional years of information to assess. The Kings drafted Harry, a promising player with a serious injury history, with the idea of red shirting him for a year and then seeing what he could do. At best he responds well to rehab, gets onto the court and makes a difference. At worst he never plays. In reality he played a little bit, made a bunch of fouls and some nice passes but is now hurt again. He is still on the team, so the experiment is not over, but it obviously hasn't gone as well as possible and they decided not to extend him.

Comments on spin, Sacramento decision fatigue, Kings selling/fans buying hope etc might influence why some are upset - but when assessing Harry Giles' progress in a vacuum - I am not upset with how it has played out so far. They drafted a low floor, high ceiling guy and have had a sensible plan with rehabilitation and gradual minutes. It is not over.