Kings do not pick up Giles and Caleb team options for next year!

I think the Giles situation is less complicated than most assume, The Kings know his PT will be limited this year. And with the limitations, Giles likely won’t be able to generate much interest, which would then allow the Kings to sign him at a much more reasonable price—say $2M per instead of $4M per. Calculated risk.
 
I don't completely agree re admitting the pick was wasted. You do not make 2016's draft picks in 2019 with three additional years of information to assess. The Kings drafted Harry, a promising player with a serious injury history, with the idea of red shirting him for a year and then seeing what he could do. At best he responds well to rehab, gets onto the court and makes a difference. At worst he never plays. In reality he played a little bit, made a bunch of fouls and some nice passes but is now hurt again. He is still on the team, so the experiment is not over, but it obviously hasn't gone as well as possible and they decided not to extend him.

Comments on spin, Sacramento decision fatigue, Kings selling/fans buying hope etc might influence why some are upset - but when assessing Harry Giles' progress in a vacuum - I am not upset with how it has played out so far. They drafted a low floor, high ceiling guy and have had a sensible plan with rehabilitation and gradual minutes. It is not over.
See here's the issue for me... I don't agree with the theory that you need a crystal ball to project player performance. If that were the case the outcome would be completely random but we know that it's not. Some teams are consistently better at identifying and developing talent than others. The seeds of who a player is going to be are already there by the time they're 19 or 20. If you make an unusually risky pick and it doesn't work out, you should be held accountable for that decision. It's not like this was a low percentage pick in the late 20s either where teams often go for riskier picks because the elite talent is already taken. We had the 10th overall pick in that draft and turned it into two busts who looked like busts on draft day. I didn't like either of those picks. Justin Jackson was the type of player who gets a second round contract and looks good in the G League before fizzling out. Harry Giles wasn't even healthy enough to play a full college season. I wanted no part of either guy. So one of those picks had to work out for me to approve of the decision making. If you consistently miss on lottery picks year after year while teams picking below you are adding All Stars and MVPs and reliable starters that's not bad luck, it's bad talent evaluation. And every one of those missed picks matters. You could build multiple championship level teams just from the guys we've missed on in the last decade.
 
See here's the issue for me... I don't agree with the theory that you need a crystal ball to project player performance. If that were the case the outcome would be completely random but we know that it's not. Some teams are consistently better at identifying and developing talent than others. The seeds of who a player is going to be are already there by the time they're 19 or 20. If you make an unusually risky pick and it doesn't work out, you should be held accountable for that decision. It's not like this was a low percentage pick in the late 20s either where teams often go for riskier picks because the elite talent is already taken. We had the 10th overall pick in that draft and turned it into two busts who looked like busts on draft day. I didn't like either of those picks. Justin Jackson was the type of player who gets a second round contract and looks good in the G League before fizzling out. Harry Giles wasn't even healthy enough to play a full college season. I wanted no part of either guy. So one of those picks had to work out for me to approve of the decision making. If you consistently miss on lottery picks year after year while teams picking below you are adding All Stars and MVPs and reliable starters that's not bad luck, it's bad talent evaluation. And every one of those missed picks matters. You could build multiple championship level teams just from the guys we've missed on in the last decade.
I think your opinion is fair, valid, and well reasoned. I agree - Giles had multiple injuries that were serious and he had hardly played. Few players with that history will be able carve out careers as top players. For me, picking him in the 20s (or wherever) wasn't that much of an issue - as I don't think the opportunity cost is that high. I think the approach the Kings took with him - a year of rehab, gradual minutes in year 2, was a smart one. I don't think - given he is not playing at the moment - that not picking up his option is such a bad move. If anything it says to Harry - don't enjoy rehab too much buddy - the point is to get out there and play.

On other picks. I love D'Aaron Fox. I like and am excited by MBIII. I liked Justin Jackson - was sad to see him go - but think we got max value for him and the move was a no brainer really. I don't think our draft performance is worse than teams like Philly, Lakers, Boston, etc. We don't get bailed out by free agents and we have some inherited trauma. Last year we were definitely going in a good direction. Too soon to say whether Luke has ruined that but am hopeful.
 
I think your opinion is fair, valid, and well reasoned. I agree - Giles had multiple injuries that were serious and he had hardly played. Few players with that history will be able carve out careers as top players. For me, picking him in the 20s (or wherever) wasn't that much of an issue - as I don't think the opportunity cost is that high. I think the approach the Kings took with him - a year of rehab, gradual minutes in year 2, was a smart one. I don't think - given he is not playing at the moment - that not picking up his option is such a bad move. If anything it says to Harry - don't enjoy rehab too much buddy - the point is to get out there and play.

On other picks. I love D'Aaron Fox. I like and am excited by MBIII. I liked Justin Jackson - was sad to see him go - but think we got max value for him and the move was a no brainer really. I don't think our draft performance is worse than teams like Philly, Lakers, Boston, etc. We don't get bailed out by free agents and we have some inherited trauma. Last year we were definitely going in a good direction. Too soon to say whether Luke has ruined that but am hopeful.
I agree with most of your points. For these pointing at the players the Kings did not draft, you can find multiple examples for every single team in the NBA. Recently, Nikola Jokic was drafted 42nd (or so), Donovan Mitchel was not a top 10 pick, and there are many more examples. Misses happen all the time. However, I still think that the Kings (including Vlade) did not draft well since the Petrie time. The problem is they did not have any hit, apart from the obvious pick (Fox).
 
Jason Jones’s latest for the Athletic (behind a paywall, so won’t link) quotes a source that Giles “has to earn” a deal for next year and that Giles wasn’t around the team as much as they wanted over the summer. He reports concerns by a source that the recent knee soreness was caused by not reporting to camp in good enough shape.

Jones has been solid on these types of things, especially since he’s joined the Athletic (no need for clickbait when your business model is subscription based), so unfortunately I don’t think we can just chalk this up to the Bee.
 
Jason Jones’s latest for the Athletic (behind a paywall, so won’t link) quotes a source that Giles “has to earn” a deal for next year and that Giles wasn’t around the team as much as they wanted over the summer. He reports concerns by a source that the recent knee soreness was caused by not reporting to camp in good enough shape.

Jones has been solid on these types of things, especially since he’s joined the Athletic (no need for clickbait when your business model is subscription based), so unfortunately I don’t think we can just chalk this up to the Bee.
I've heard these rumblings (don't pay for the Athletic). The only reason I question them is because I don't think he'd be set to play next week if he hasn't been meeting the team's requests. Too much of a liability.

Now if he keeps saying he is ready to go and the team keeps holding him out, I think we have an answer.
 
Jason Jones’s latest for the Athletic (behind a paywall, so won’t link) quotes a source that Giles “has to earn” a deal for next year and that Giles wasn’t around the team as much as they wanted over the summer. He reports concerns by a source that the recent knee soreness was caused by not reporting to camp in good enough shape.

Jones has been solid on these types of things, especially since he’s joined the Athletic (no need for clickbait when your business model is subscription based), so unfortunately I don’t think we can just chalk this up to the Bee.
(Not directed at you)

THERE. IS. NO. EARNING. IT.

When you don't pick up an option, you're all but cutting the player. Either they're woefully ignorant or they're expecting us to buy that crock, either way it's laughable.
 
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/k...mplicated-contract-situation-would-mean-kings

New information from Ham. I said in the other thread that this could be a combination of things. Looks like it's them being cheap, misjudging their own talent, and smelling their own farts, with some possible ignorance on how the salary cap works.
The article answers the question I raised earlier in this thread. So, they cannot give him a multi year deal either, even if under $4M.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
The article answers the question I raised earlier in this thread. So, they cannot give him a multi year deal either, even if under $4M.
This is incorrect. Giles could be offered a multi-year deal by the Kings, but the salary (and bonuses) in the first year of the deal cannot exceed the value of the contract option we declined. Here is the relevant text directly from the CBA:

Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in this Agreement, if a player is a Veteran Free Agent following the second or third Season of his Rookie Scale Contract (where the first Option Year or second Option Year (as applicable) to extend such Contract was not exercised), then any new Player Contract between the player and the Team that signed him to his Rookie Scale Contract (and/or, if such Contract was subsequently assigned, any such assignee Team) may provide for Regular Salary, Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses in the first Salary Cap Year of up to the Regular Salary, Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses, respectively, that the player would have received for such Salary Cap Year had his first or second Option Year (as applicable) been exercised. Annual increases and decreases in Salary and Unlikely Bonuses shall be governed by Section 5(c)(2) above.
You can read just the bolded parts to cut out excessive verbiage, it doesn't change the actual content. The CBA clearly allows for annual increases and decreases in salary in this situation, which means that it obviously allows for multi-year contracts.

James Ham got it wrong. I know it may be a little bit tough to cut through the legalese of the CBA, but Ham has no excuse. I hear his wife is a lawyer.
 
This is incorrect. Giles could be offered a multi-year deal by the Kings, but the salary (and bonuses) in the first year of the deal cannot exceed the value of the contract option we declined. Here is the relevant text directly from the CBA:



You can read just the bolded parts to cut out excessive verbiage, it doesn't change the actual content. The CBA clearly allows for annual increases and decreases in salary in this situation, which means that it obviously allows for multi-year contracts.

James Ham got it wrong. I know it may be a little bit tough to cut through the legalese of the CBA, but Ham has no excuse. I hear his wife is a lawyer.
Ham is wrong. There aren't a lot of examples of this happening but there's this:

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelp...rs-bring-back-furkan-korkmaz-on-two-year-deal
thanks to you both. Think there’s any Furkan way Ham corrects his piece?
 
(Not directed at you)

THERE. IS. NO. EARNING. IT.

When you don't pick up an option, you're all but cutting the player. Either they're woefully ignorant or they're expecting us to buy that crock, either way it's laughable.
There were two possibilities - Giles is completely done, or our front office is a bunch of idiots. Giles is playing, so we know the answer.

Now, we're supposed to hope for the exact sweet spot where he shows just enough for us to want to keep him, but not so much that anyone offers over $4 million. Or we could have have competent management and preserved our rights for a minimal financial risk.
 
I’m gonna keep it out of the game thread.

But WHAT IN THE BLUE HELL WAS THIS IDIOT IN CHARGE THINKING?!!!!
Let's see. His knees aren't shot, he's out there playing. Looking about as good as second half last year and isn't as raw as you would expect coming off injury.

All that had to do was pick up his option.

IT. WAS. THAT. EASY.

Instead they tried to get cute, presumably because of various reasons that I've mentioned.
 
Let's see. His knees aren't shot, he's out there playing. Looking about as good as second half last year and isn't as raw as you would expect coming off injury.

All that had to do was pick up his option.

IT. WAS. THAT. EASY.

Instead they tried to get cute, presumably because of various reasons that I've mentioned.
What are the chances they’ve had a conversation with him about doing some cap wizard type stuff with Cantanella, in order to be able to keep Bogie and still have room for Fox and Bagley presumable max contracts
 
What are the chances they’ve had a conversation with him about doing some cap wizard type stuff with Cantanella, in order to be able to keep Bogie and still have room for Fox and Bagley presumable max contracts
$4 million was already cheap. Those no wizardry that could save more than a couple of million. Meanwhile, we're dropping like $40 million on Ariza, Dedmon and Cojo this year.
 
There were two possibilities - Giles is completely done, or our front office is a bunch of idiots. Giles is playing, so we know the answer.

Now, we're supposed to hope for the exact sweet spot where he shows just enough for us to want to keep him, but not so much that anyone offers over $4 million. Or we could have have competent management and preserved our rights for a minimal financial risk.
He only played 6 minutes this half, they might try to keep as the 11th man when Bagley comes back or keep him in short spurts to keep him under the radar.

But if they're holding him back for that sole purpose to get him on the cheap, that's pretty scummy in its own way.
 
Vlade and the FO are freaking morons!

Such incompetence in the FO. How damn hard is it to exercise a simple and cheap $4 million option to make sure you don't look like a damn fool come this summer? Really how hard? :(

The problem with this FO is that instead of doing the obvious and easy decision, they try to show everyone that they are smarter than everyone else.

The obvious choice was to draft Doncic #2 overall, didn’t do it! The obvious choice was to keep a good coach, Dave Joeger and fire Brandon Williams, didn’t do that. The obvious choice was to exercise the paltry $4 million option on Giles, didn’t do that.

I don’t understand the risk taking that this FO continually chooses to make, when not necessary.

They made one obvious choice in drafting D Fox and that turned out well. Everything else they chose to do is just a crap shoot. :(
 
Last edited:
What are the chances they’ve had a conversation with him about doing some cap wizard type stuff with Cantanella, in order to be able to keep Bogie and still have room for Fox and Bagley presumable max contracts
I doubt they had a conversation about that, but they could be trying to pull off a deal. They could just be trying to work him back from injury, but after tonight I feel it's going to be limited minutes for Giles all year in an attempt to keep him under the radar and get a deal, especially when Bagley comes back.

I'd be lying if I said that wasn't my preference, but it feels a little dirty and is such an unnecessary risk and Harry might not go for it anyway.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
Harry had a good six minute stretch followed by a short 4th quarter stint that can best be described as a bag of gunpowder being teleported into a burning barn full of hay (not entirely his fault).

I still stand by my opinion that the "thigh bruise" from last season wound up being worse than that and/or an examination over the offseason revealed he had Brandon Roy knees.
 
This is incorrect. Giles could be offered a multi-year deal by the Kings, but the salary (and bonuses) in the first year of the deal cannot exceed the value of the contract option we declined. Here is the relevant text directly from the CBA:



You can read just the bolded parts to cut out excessive verbiage, it doesn't change the actual content. The CBA clearly allows for annual increases and decreases in salary in this situation, which means that it obviously allows for multi-year contracts.

James Ham got it wrong. I know it may be a little bit tough to cut through the legalese of the CBA, but Ham has no excuse. I hear his wife is a lawyer.
Excellent post—thanks! So, it’s not too hard to read between the lines here. The team cleared Giles and he was expected to play summer league. He refused due to either “knee soreness” or because 3rd year guys aren’t trying to play summer league. He did his own workouts, didn’t work with the training staff in the summer, and came into camp unprepared. That doesn’t mean “out of shape” per se—it could mean he didn’t do enough yoga and had muscle tightness that led to knee soreness. Point being, he wasn’t following team direction. The FO did not appreciate such actions given the redshirt year, etc.

BTW, these kind of things can get pretty weird, which is likely why it’s been so quiet. At a certain point, someone’s going to say the team should just sit him all year and collect the insurance, and then you have to go back and forth with the doctors, the agent(s), the player, the insurer and the coaches. It’s a mess.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
Harry had a good six minute stretch followed by a short 4th quarter stint that can best be described as a bag of gunpowder being teleported into a burning barn full of hay (not entirely his fault).

I still stand by my opinion that the "thigh bruise" from last season wound up being worse than that and/or an examination over the offseason revealed he had Brandon Roy knees.
While I don’t know about his knees being destroyed beyond repair, I’m 1000% sure the “thigh bruise” was a massive farce.
 
Props to Walton for figuring out quickly that the young guys are not ready to self regulate their game and behavior on the court. Not being afraid to use those timeouts or go with the vets down the stretch.

Edit: I posted this in the wrong place, but yeah....
 
Last edited: