Kings do not pick up Giles and Caleb team options for next year!

This is incorrect. Giles could be offered a multi-year deal by the Kings, but the salary (and bonuses) in the first year of the deal cannot exceed the value of the contract option we declined. Here is the relevant text directly from the CBA:



You can read just the bolded parts to cut out excessive verbiage, it doesn't change the actual content. The CBA clearly allows for annual increases and decreases in salary in this situation, which means that it obviously allows for multi-year contracts.

James Ham got it wrong. I know it may be a little bit tough to cut through the legalese of the CBA, but Ham has no excuse. I hear his wife is a lawyer.
Does it mean they can sign Giles to a 4 year contract at $4M salary for year 1, followed by a massive increase for years 2-4?
 
Harry had a good six minute stretch followed by a short 4th quarter stint that can best be described as a bag of gunpowder being teleported into a burning barn full of hay (not entirely his fault).

I still stand by my opinion that the "thigh bruise" from last season wound up being worse than that and/or an examination over the offseason revealed he had Brandon Roy knees.
This would be the only thing that makes sense
 
My guess is that they could sign Giles to a comfortable 2 year deal and then have Bird rights to give him a big deal after they have taken care of Fox and Bagley.

But we have the worst FO in the league according to most here so that's a pipe dream.
Let me introduce you to DeMarcus Cousins and Isaiah Thomas. Given Giles injury history any agent that allowed him to do the above versus taking a life changing deal would be committing malpractice.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
Let me introduce you to DeMarcus Cousins and Isaiah Thomas. Given Giles injury history any agent that allowed him to do the above versus taking a life changing deal would be committing malpractice.
But the CBA's likely going to change in two years, resulting in another mass spending spree like the one last year and two seasons earlier.

I'd usually agree with you but in this situation, it may be more prudent to wait until then.
 
4-year contract, yes, "massive" increases, no. The increases would be limited to 8% of the first year (about $320K) per year.
then it won't provide any relief for the "Harry plays great" scenario. Nobody has said anything that makes me feel better about the risk of being outbid with our hands tied behind our backs...
 
But the CBA's likely going to change in two years, resulting in another mass spending spree like the one last year and two seasons earlier.

I'd usually agree with you but in this situation, it may be more prudent to wait until then.
They expecting the salary cap to decrease with China pulling away from the NBA.
 
It's interesting. Every time there's some slight against the FO by a player or a figure in the organization, whether real or perceived, the response is to burn all bridges.

We saw it with Cousins in #CharacterMatters, Joerger with Vlade's attempt to "consolidate power" and feud with Brandon Williams, Brandon Williams for the same, and now Giles with the out of shape reports.

Buddy miraculously survived getting into it with the FO.

You could make a serial drama out of this. In the next episode, dissatisfied bench player Bogdanovic and diva Bagley go up against Vlade and his scorched earth policy. How will they fare?
 
But the CBA's likely going to change in two years, resulting in another mass spending spree like the one last year and two seasons earlier.

I'd usually agree with you but in this situation, it may be more prudent to wait until then.
Sure you take a 2 year deal but in Giles case, with his injury history, you don’t give a discount to the home team. You take the biggest 2 year deal you can get.
 

Larry89

Disgruntled Kings Fan
It's interesting. Every time there's some slight against the FO by a player or a figure in the organization, whether real or perceived, the response is to burn all bridges.

We saw it with Cousins in #CharacterMatters, Joerger with Vlade's attempt to "consolidate power" and feud with Brandon Williams, Brandon Williams for the same, and now Giles with the out of shape reports.

Buddy miraculously survived getting into it with the FO.

You could make a serial drama out of this. In the next episode, dissatisfied bench player Bogdanovic and diva Bagley go up against Vlade and his scorched earth policy. How will they fare?
There will be a televised pay per view cage match with guest appearance referee Brandon Williams hitting Bjelica with a chair coming out of the crowd and then holding down Vlade for the count while Bagley is on top of him.
 
So if he plays well and some other team offers him more than the kings, lets say 6 mil instead of 4, you think Giles dips ?

This sounds kind of dumb, unless the FO has a handshake agreement with Giles ?

Just doesnt seen that wise knowing the team invested 2 years in Giles so its kind of weird. Was 4 mil that much ? Hes obviously fine he was playing yesterday. It just doesn't make much sense maybe if he were restricted it would make more sense.

Just kind of sucky.
 
So if he plays well and some other team offers him more than the kings, lets say 6 mil instead of 4, you think Giles dips ?

This sounds kind of dumb, unless the FO has a handshake agreement with Giles ?

Just doesnt seen that wise knowing the team invested 2 years in Giles so its kind of weird. Was 4 mil that much ? Hes obviously fine he was playing yesterday. It just doesn't make much sense maybe if he were restricted it would make more sense.

Just kind of sucky.
I might be more mad about this than the pick who must not be named.

Don't get me wrong, it's not nearly the franchise ruining mistake that not picking this board's Voldemort was, but the combination of the things they've said and done since they drafted him and the reasons, I just can't wrap my head around how braindead you would have to be to do something like this. It might be the second-most braindead thing done in Vlade's tenure in terms of sheer stupidity and ignorance!
 
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I have to believe there's a handshake deal knowing he has Barnes and Bagley's agent. It makes too much sense. Especially since Barnes took an annual pay cut for a longer term deal there's a history that the agent and FO can work together for mutual benefit.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
...
Just doesnt seen that wise knowing the team invested 2 years in Giles so its kind of weird. Was 4 mil that much ? Hes obviously fine he was playing yesterday. It just doesn't make much sense maybe if he were restricted it would make more sense.

Just kind of sucky.
So was Chris Webber right up until he collapsed in a heap on the Mavericks court.

I have to agree with Tetsujin. His history might preclude Giles from getting any really lucrative offers, regardless of what he does this season. The first thing he absolutely has to do is stay healthy and stay on the court.
 
So was Chris Webber right up until he collapsed in a heap on the Mavericks court.

I have to agree with Tetsujin. His history might preclude Giles from getting any really lucrative offers, regardless of what he does this season. The first thing he absolutely has to do is stay healthy and stay on the court.
I just think that the pros outweigh the cons here for picking up the option.

I have noticed giles not very sullen tho so who knows maybe there is some handshake deal in place. Im sure theres stuff we don't know
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
As the driver of the H20 bandwagon, I more than understand everyone's desire to believe that Harry is being railroaded by an incompetent front office but when there's enough smoke there's fire and in this case there's more smoke than a Willie Nelson tour bus.

I present to you another much beloved prospect in Sacramento Kings history: Donte Greene.
A 6'10" big man with the athleticism to defend all five positions on the court. After showing huge flashes and ending the season looking like he had the potential to be a potential star, Donte spent the offseason eating cheeseburgers and participating in light weight training in the name of "bulking up" and wound up coming into training camp out of shape and utterly momentum-less. Now I'm not saying that Harry pulled a Donte but the work ethic concern stories are similar, complete with Harry bringing Panda Express to a summer league game.

Disregarding the fact that his name is Harry Giles, a 6'9" power forward taken 20th overall in the draft who has shown the occasional flash but with a serious injury history and work ethic concerns generally wouldn't garner consideration for a huge contract.

I'm not saying that I understand Vlade's decision here but I'd be incredibly surprised if Harry winds getting a huge offer in the offseason.
 
So was Chris Webber right up until he collapsed in a heap on the Mavericks court.

I have to agree with Tetsujin. His history might preclude Giles from getting any really lucrative offers, regardless of what he does this season. The first thing he absolutely has to do is stay healthy and stay on the court.
Any then there is Shaun Liviingston.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Any then there is Shaun Liviingston.
I'll never quite get past the memory of his horrific injury. In fact, my stomach still gets queasy thinking about it. The mere fact he was ever able to step on a court again, let alone be productive, is a testament to the human spirit IMHO.
 
It's interesting. Every time there's some slight against the FO by a player or a figure in the organization, whether real or perceived, the response is to burn all bridges.

We saw it with Cousins in #CharacterMatters, Joerger with Vlade's attempt to "consolidate power" and feud with Brandon Williams, Brandon Williams for the same, and now Giles with the out of shape reports.

Buddy miraculously survived getting into it with the FO.

You could make a serial drama out of this. In the next episode, dissatisfied bench player Bogdanovic and diva Bagley go up against Vlade and his scorched earth policy. How will they fare?

Honestly, because im moving in your same direction as you, how do you continue to be able to remain a kings fan with such a high level of cynicism? I think you may be the most negative on this forum in regards to your confidence in the Kings management and the moves they have made. What keeps you around?
 
As the driver of the H20 bandwagon, I more than understand everyone's desire to believe that Harry is being railroaded by an incompetent front office but when there's enough smoke there's fire and in this case there's more smoke than a Willie Nelson tour bus.

I present to you another much beloved prospect in Sacramento Kings history: Donte Greene.
A 6'10" big man with the athleticism to defend all five positions on the court. After showing huge flashes and ending the season looking like he had the potential to be a potential star, Donte spent the offseason eating cheeseburgers and participating in light weight training in the name of "bulking up" and wound up coming into training camp out of shape and utterly momentum-less. Now I'm not saying that Harry pulled a Donte but the work ethic concern stories are similar, complete with Harry bringing Panda Express to a summer league game.

Disregarding the fact that his name is Harry Giles, a 6'9" power forward taken 20th overall in the draft who has shown the occasional flash but with a serious injury history and work ethic concerns generally wouldn't garner consideration for a huge contract.

I'm not saying that I understand Vlade's decision here but I'd be incredibly surprised if Harry winds getting a huge offer in the offseason.

If Giles has poor work ethic, the result will show on the court. So, we'll see.

Quite frankly, I have a hard time believing that a guy who managed to come back from three knee surgeries would have poor work ethic.
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As the driver of the H20 bandwagon, I more than understand everyone's desire to believe that Harry is being railroaded by an incompetent front office but when there's enough smoke there's fire and in this case there's more smoke than a Willie Nelson tour bus.

I present to you another much beloved prospect in Sacramento Kings history: Donte Greene.
A 6'10" big man with the athleticism to defend all five positions on the court. After showing huge flashes and ending the season looking like he had the potential to be a potential star, Donte spent the offseason eating cheeseburgers and participating in light weight training in the name of "bulking up" and wound up coming into training camp out of shape and utterly momentum-less. Now I'm not saying that Harry pulled a Donte but the work ethic concern stories are similar, complete with Harry bringing Panda Express to a summer league game.

Disregarding the fact that his name is Harry Giles, a 6'9" power forward taken 20th overall in the draft who has shown the occasional flash but with a serious injury history and work ethic concerns generally wouldn't garner consideration for a huge contract.

I'm not saying that I understand Vlade's decision here but I'd be incredibly surprised if Harry winds getting a huge offer in the offseason.
The trouble is that it doesn't have to be a huge contract. All it needs is one team to offer slightly higher than what we can offer, and we lose him.

I don't know what the plan is. Perhaps the FO thinks we already have a crowded front court, and Giles might not fit into it, particularly for the role they have in mind. Overall though, the cost for retaining him was very low, and I doubt we can make better use of the money we will save from not picking the option. Due to our mismanagement, we have lost lot of talent for no compensation, losing guys like WCS, Mason, Skal, and probably Giles for no compensation (ignoring Caleb as compensation here). While it might be argued that none of them have set the league on fire, it may be a bit early to say that. Remember HW took a few years after he left us, and even IT, even though he was a good player with us, and with Denver, became really dominant in Boston. IIRC, we lost both of them too for no compensation.

Finally, Giles didn't come cheap. We traded down to pick him and JJ, when we could have picked Mitchell. I know it's easy to be wise in hindsight, but most of us had supported the move that time, since we believed JJ could be a decent role player (he seems to be making some progress there) at a position of need. However, the real prize there was Giles, who was a potential top prospect. While the JJ for Barnes trade was good (one can argue about the contract given to Barnes separately), but losing Giles for nothing would be horrible.

Finally, I don't get to watch a lot of games, so probably unfair to make this comment. However, I think the team needs more players who play with an edge, and I think Giles did that. Another reason I would hate for him to go. While his health will always be a question, till he proves otherwise, I still think he has the tools to be an excellent player.
 
I'm not saying that I understand Vlade's decision here but I'd be incredibly surprised if Harry winds getting a huge offer in the offseason.
Here is the thing about declining Gile’s paltry $4 million option. He doesn’t need to be offered a HUGE contract for the Kings to lose him. Someone can just offer him part of their MLE (ie. 5 million for 2 years) and the Kings lose him.

It’s a dumb gamble to take when Giles potential upside is worth way more than a cheap $4 million rookie scale option.
 
Ok I just look at what we have with Giles at least to me.
Who knows how far in the draft he would of dropped if we did not pick him, who really knows?

Most folks I know think it was a decent pick where we got him and worth the risk involved. This young man has been paid by the Kings going onto 3 years now and has received excellent care with bringing him along.

If the doctors haven’t cleared him until just the other day I doubt our coach would be happy not having another player he could use if he was really ready.

I feel he in the short term needs to show he can stay on the floor and that is in regards to his health.

What I want to see is Giles to settle into the rotation and once comfortable become a productive player and then figure out his value.
I do understand we may lose him with this tactic and I know he is young and hopefully he has a productive long career. But I cannot see him filling a roster spot for like 4,5,6 years or more because of potential and not production.

I also believe everyone on both sides in those decisions understand what needs to be done.
 
The pick is a sunk cost. Ham spelled out everything in his article. Again, Giles was cleared after the thigh contusion and was expected to play summer league. He chose not to. He was expected to be at the Kings’ training facility over the summer working closely with training staff. He did not do that either. Subsequently, he came to camp unprepared. Not “out of shape”, but having not managed his training properly, his body (w/ his injury history) was unprepared for camp.

The Kings say they remain in the Harry Giles business. Meaning, they would very much like to sign him for $4M next year—but they need to see that Harry is following team direction in order to stay healthy. From Vlade’s perspective, if someone else wants to spend more on Giles, then so be it. He already has Holmes signed up for next year. Again, the pick is a sunk cost. You spend the pick hoping to find a guy like Holmes. Well, we got that.
 
The trouble is that it doesn't have to be a huge contract. All it needs is one team to offer slightly higher than what we can offer, and we lose him.

I don't know what the plan is. Perhaps the FO thinks we already have a crowded front court, and Giles might not fit into it, particularly for the role they have in mind. Overall though, the cost for retaining him was very low, and I doubt we can make better use of the money we will save from not picking the option. Due to our mismanagement, we have lost lot of talent for no compensation, losing guys like WCS, Mason, Skal, and probably Giles for no compensation (ignoring Caleb as compensation here). While it might be argued that none of them have set the league on fire, it may be a bit early to say that. Remember HW took a few years after he left us, and even IT, even though he was a good player with us, and with Denver, became really dominant in Boston. IIRC, we lost both of them too for no compensation.

Finally, Giles didn't come cheap. We traded down to pick him and JJ, when we could have picked Mitchell. I know it's easy to be wise in hindsight, but most of us had supported the move that time, since we believed JJ could be a decent role player (he seems to be making some progress there) at a position of need. However, the real prize there was Giles, who was a potential top prospect. While the JJ for Barnes trade was good (one can argue about the contract given to Barnes separately), but losing Giles for nothing would be horrible.

Finally, I don't get to watch a lot of games, so probably unfair to make this comment. However, I think the team needs more players who play with an edge, and I think Giles did that. Another reason I would hate for him to go. While his health will always be a question, till he proves otherwise, I still think he has the tools to be an excellent player.
lumping Harry with WCS, Mason, Skal - well I hope you're right about that. If Harry Giles does not far exceed the NBA productivity of all those three guys put together, then I understand the move and he is just washed.

This is only a problem if Harry Giles winds up being a much better player than WCS, Mason and Skal. Those are three "guys who didn't work out" I have no problem with them
 
Honestly, because im moving in your same direction as you, how do you continue to be able to remain a kings fan with such a high level of cynicism? I think you may be the most negative on this forum in regards to your confidence in the Kings management and the moves they have made. What keeps you around?
Hmm, I couldn't say for sure. I still root for most of the players on the roster and would prefer a smart FO over what we have, but taking a hyperbolic dump on these decisions I guess is the only way I can scrounge up some entertainment some times.

I've tried the optimistic approach before, and when I say optimistic I mean rationalize or downplay all their moves so I don't have to be sad approach and I'm never doing that again.
 
The pick is a sunk cost. Ham spelled out everything in his article. Again, Giles was cleared after the thigh contusion and was expected to play summer league. He chose not to. He was expected to be at the Kings’ training facility over the summer working closely with training staff. He did not do that either. Subsequently, he came to camp unprepared. Not “out of shape”, but having not managed his training properly, his body (w/ his injury history) was unprepared for camp.

The Kings say they remain in the Harry Giles business. Meaning, they would very much like to sign him for $4M next year—but they need to see that Harry is following team direction in order to stay healthy. From Vlade’s perspective, if someone else wants to spend more on Giles, then so be it. He already has Holmes signed up for next year. Again, the pick is a sunk cost. You spend the pick hoping to find a guy like Holmes. Well, we got that.
...

Are you rationalizing the move or laying out the reasons why Vlade is a bad GM? I honestly can't tell.

And sorry, but no... speak for yourself on that one. Do I want them to spend their 1st round picks looking for role player energy bigs? No, I'd rather them try to find a guy with a much higher ceiling with up to nine years of team control over.

We had that. Now we don't. If Vlade let Giles walk over Holmes who by the way we only have two years of team control over then he's (still) an idiot.

Yeah, it's the late first round so you can't expect something more than Holmes, but to go into the 1st round TRYING to get a guy like Holmes? Miss me on that one.