Its a winner...Sac/Cle/NYK

[perezident]

Ok based on the rumors that the Cavs and knicks are talking about a big man a la Zack Randolph, I decided to try something out....

Sac trades: Brad Miller Mikki Moore
gets: Wally, Mardy Collins and future 1st rounder top 5 protection 09?? (knicks) 2nd rounder cavs & cash considerations

Newlineup
Hawes/Williams
Thompson/Greene/Kenny/SAR*
Salmons/Wally
Kevin/Cisco/Collins*
Beno/Bobby/Douby/Brown*

Why,because it completes a full youth movement for the kings. Assuring Thompson Hawes Sheldon and Greene more playing time. I know Greene is a SF but at 6'10 he should be able to play some PF. Wally is just to clear cap space and this deal doesnt kill 2010 cap space plan. Also Kings get what they want for Brad (pick, prospect and expiring)

Cavs trade: Wally Varejao 2nd rounder & cash considerations
gets: Randolph and Mikki Moore

Newlineup
BigZ/Big Ben
Randolph/Mikki/Hickson
Lebron/Devin Brown
West/Pavlovic
Mo/Gibson

Why, makes the sigining of West more important after the trade. West gets to play his natural postion without any back log at that spot. Adding Randolph and Mikki gives them much needed depth and solidify's the PF position. Mikki and Varejao are both hustle players and make the same money, but with Mikki you get more athletic and a bit more offensive. This move looks like a win now move and roster

NYK trades: Randolph Mardy Collins future 1st rounder 09? (top 5 protected)
gets: Brad Miller Varejao

Newlineup
Brad/Varejao
Curry/Lee/Rose
Richardson/Gallinari/Jefferies
Crawford/Chandler
Duhon/Nate/starberry

Why,because they finally make some sense of their starting lineup/roster. Knicks were quoted saying they dont have enough big men. So with this deal they aquire another big man in Varejao. With this lineup Brad compliments Curry ALOT better than Randolph did. Curry can now be on the block demanding double teams opening this up for the (what looks to be) good outside shooters for the Knicks. Brad is what D'Antoni would love in a Center, with his gr8 passing skills and he's able to spread the floor with his shooting. This lineup looks like a playoff pusher. I think the knicks win big in this trade

thoughts?

 

[beb0p]

There's no way the Knicks gives up a #1 pick for that. I also don't see why the Knicks would want Miller, they can't play Curry and Miller together, over Wally's expiring. It makes more sense for NY to deal directly with the Cavs than work out a three-team trade.

For that matter, I don't see why Lebron would want Randolph on the team, but that's another story.

 

[FakeInjury]

Yea, if anyone offers you a NBA GM position, don't take it. Seriously, it doesn't make sense for New York, and it kills Cleveland's outside shooting. Sacramento essentially gets 1st round pick for an allstar and a servicable bigman. Let me ask you what you think? who wins in this trade, other than you for coming up with it?

 

[NME]

Also, the Knicks have already traded away their 2009 pick, so unless they acquire a pick elsewhere the next pick they can part with is in 2011.

 

[venom_7]

forget the pick and this trade is golden. good scenario. Cleveland to me gets a lot better withthis trade. And if playing with LeBron can't make Zach Randolph get his head straight then nothing will. Also Mo Williams might be an all-star this year.

 

[SacKings7]

I agree with venom, take out the 1st to us and it's pretty fair all around.

 

[perezident]

There's no way the Knicks gives up a #1 pick for that. I also don't see why the Knicks would want Miller, they can't play Curry and Miller together, over Wally's expiring. It makes more sense for NY to deal directly with the Cavs than work out a three-team trade.

For that matter, I don't see why Lebron would want Randolph on the team, but that's another story.

What are you talking about???? Why would the Knicks want miller???
My friend did you not read the reasons why i stated this trade would work for the respected teams??

The knicks are lackying big men! They get Brad Miller (who D'Antoni would love) and Varejao! For the likes of Randolph and Collins 1st...i wasnt sure about the knicks pick that why i said "09??" I'll make it a 2011 pick then. But their is no way Knicks dnt deal Randolph without adding a pick. The guy's contract is HORRIBLE. They shed off a year with Miller and Varejao coming in. Miller compliments Curry to much! Curry can be on the block with out any interuptions. And Cavs and Knicks are NOT! good trading partners. Knicks need an additional big man

Yea, if anyone offers you a NBA GM position, don't take it. Seriously, it doesn't make sense for New York, and it kills Cleveland's outside shooting. Sacramento essentially gets 1st round pick for an allstar and a servicable bigman. Let me ask you what you think? who wins in this trade, other than you for coming up with it?

Stop trying to be funny and really state why is it you dont like the trade my friend. And how does this trade kill their outside shooting?? Ok let me ask you this if cavs trade with knicks str8 up ..who do you think they're gonna trade?? Wally most def. is going to be apart of the trade a la expiring contract and they wont get a shooter back (cavs) I think Knicks and Cavs sneak out like bandits..especially the Knicks.

 

[VF21]

Newlineup
Hawes/Williams
Thompson/Greene/Kenny/SAR*
Salmons/Wally
Kevin/Cisco/Collins*
Beno/Bobby/Douby/Brown*

Shelden Williams isn't a center and Greene isn't a PF. People really, really, really need to quit trying to force players out of position to justify their latest trade brainstorm.

I don't like the trade because I don't see any team really getting better. I know you like the trade, since you posted it, but this one would get a thumbs-down from me. Sorry.

 

[perezident]

Shelden Williams isn't a center and Greene isn't a PF. People really, really, really need to quit trying to force players out of position to justify their latest trade brainstorm.

I don't like the trade because I don't see any team really getting better. I know you like the trade, since you posted it, but this one would get a thumbs-down from me. Sorry.

sheldon not a C??? wow you cant be serious right... And i kno Greene isnt a PF i stated that..didnt you read what i typed? But in a trade like this he would see some time at PF

And you dont have to like it, but you're telling me the knicks dnt get better and neither does the cavs??

 

[beb0p]

What are you talking about???? Why would the Knicks want miller???
My friend did you not read the reasons why i stated this trade would work for the respected teams??

The knicks are lackying big men! They get Brad Miller (who D'Antoni would love) and Varejao! For the likes of Randolph and Collins 1st...i wasnt sure about the knicks pick that why i said "09??" I'll make it a 2011 pick then. But their is no way Knicks dnt deal Randolph without adding a pick. The guy's contract is HORRIBLE. They shed off a year with Miller and Varejao coming in. Miller compliments Curry to much! Curry can be on the block with out any interuptions. And Cavs and Knicks are NOT! good trading partners. Knicks need an additional big man

Miller doesn't compliment Curry at all. You want to put two guys who move at the speed of turtles in D'Antoni's up-tempo offense? If you had watched Eddy played, you'd know that he never pass out of double teams, so how are you going to open up the floor?

Lastly, the Knicks are not going to give up the #1 pick for Miller and Varejao. They'd rather eat Randolph's contract than give that up.

 

[VF21]

sheldon not a C??? wow you cant be serious right...

SheldEn Williams is not a center. Period. Unless, of course, the entire rest of the league has it wrong and you alone know what position he should be playing.

And i kno Greene isnt a PF i stated that..didnt you read what i typed? But in a trade like this he would see some time at PF.

Yes, I did read what you typed. I just wasn't that impressed. No need to get snarky just because you're being called on trying to force Greene into a position we have no idea if he could handle. Besides which, with Artest gone I'm going to be very happy to know we have a SF with potential to step in behind Salmons. Wally would NOT fill the gap, especially after this year.

And you dont have to like it, but you're telling me the knicks dnt get better and neither does the cavs??

If the Knicks get better and the Cavs get better, then our Kings had damned well get better for a trade to work. And they clearly don't. IMHO I don't think this trade makes any of the three teams obviously better - and it's just moving people around to try and see if they fit. Again, that's my opinion. You asked for thoughts and got them.

 

[perezident]

SheldEn Williams is not a center. Period. Unless, of course, the entire rest of the league has it wrong and you alone know what position he should be playing.

Team Roster
NO. NAME POS AGE HT WT COLLEGE 2008 - 2009 SALARY
3 Shareef Abdur-Rahim PF 31 6-9 245 California $6,200,000
4 Bobby Brown PG 23 6-2 175 Cal State Fullerton$442,114
8 Quincy Douby PG 24 6-3 175 Rutgers $1,427,040
32 Francisco Garcia SF 26 6-7 195 Louisville $1,983,454
5 Donte Greene SF 20 6-11 226 Syracuse $971,160
31 Spencer Hawes C 20 7-0 230 Washington $2,180,760
8 Bobby Jackson SG 35 6-1 185 Minnesota $6,987,888
23 Kevin Martin SG 25 6-7 185 Western Carolina $8,760,335
52 Brad Miller C 32 7-0 261 Purdue $11,375,000
33 Mikki Moore PF 32 7-0 223 Nebraska $5,632,200
15 John Salmons SG 28 6-6 207 Miami (FL) $5,104,000
9 Kenny Thomas PF 31 6-7 245 New Mexico $8,562,500
34 Jason Thompson C 22 6-11 250 Rider $1,893,840
19 Beno Udrih PG 26 6-3 200 $5,585,000
22 Shelden Williams C 24 6-9 250 Duke $3,395,760
42 Lorenzen Wright C 32 6-11 255 Memphis

^From ESPN!!! so i guess you are the only one who knows basketball and all the EXPERTS dnt know anything

 

[perezident]

Miller doesn't compliment Curry at all. You want to put two guys who move at the speed of turtles in D'Antoni's up-tempo offense? If you had watched Eddy played, you'd know that he never pass out of double teams, so how are you going to open up the floor?

Lastly, the Knicks are not going to give up the #1 pick for Miller and Varejao. They'd rather eat Randolph's contract than give that up.

So i guess then the knicks should trade Curry as well?? Listen to yourself PLEASE. Didnt D'Antoni have SHAQ on the squad?? Miller is quicker than Shaq right??

Ok if you dnt like the trade thats one thing but trying to use baseless logic to express your displeasure in the trade is silly!

Look Miller does in fact compliment Curry! Curry is a post up player Miller doesnt clog the lane by being in the paint as well while Curry is posting (what Randolph did last season). And with the whole Curry not passing out of double teams well thats not my problem that the coaches problem to ensure he does.

 

[VF21]

^From ESPN!!! so i guess you are the only one who knows basketball and all the EXPERTS dnt know anything

Um, have you ever SEEN the Kings play??????

Shelden Williams is a PF, who occasionally shifts to the C depending on the other players on the court but he is NOT a legitimate center IMHO. And he certainly isn't ONLY a center. If you check the roster on kings.com, you'll see him listed as a F-C. I'm sorry if you think ESPN is a better source, but I"m gonna go with the ones who actually know the team.

http://www.nba.com/kings/roster/

 

[VF21]

So i guess then the knicks should trade Curry as well?? Listen to yourself PLEASE. Didnt D'Antoni have SHAQ on the squad?? Miller is quicker than Shaq right??

Ok if you dnt like the trade thats one thing but trying to use baseless logic to express your displeasure in the trade is silly!

Look Miller does in fact compliment Curry! Curry is a post up player Miller doesnt clog the lane by being in the paint as well while Curry is posting (what Randolph did last season). And with the whole Curry not passing out of double teams well thats not my problem that the coaches problem to ensure he does.

Heheheheh. You're actually trying to use "Miller is quicker than Shaq" as a rationale for your statements? Mike D'Antoni having Shaq on his squad had absolutely less than nothing to do with Shaq's relative quickness (and there are two words I never expected to use in conjunction with Shaquille O'Neal).

You might try having the discussion without the huge chip on your shoulder.

 

[PacMan]

Um, have you ever SEEN the Kings play??????

Shelden Williams is a PF, who occasionally shifts to the C depending on the other players on the court but he is NOT a legitimate center IMHO. And he certainly isn't ONLY a center. If you check the roster on kings.com, you'll see him listed as a F-C. I'm sorry if you think ESPN is a better source, but I"m gonna go with the ones who actually know the team.

http://www.nba.com/kings/roster/

Actually, I have to agree with Perez that Williams is more of a center than a power forward and that's probably why he's struggling in the NBA. He's a center that is trap in a PF's body and therefore he lacks the mobility to play with other PF.

Here's a description of his weakness on draftexpress

His face-up game in general is extremely unpolished, being a center in a power forward’s body for the most part, maybe even a tweener. He has shown very little ability to shoot the ball outside of 15 feet, although this is just not his role at Duke so it’s hard to get a very accurate read on this. His ball-skills are just as raw. He dribbles with his head down, looking very stiff. You really don’t want him doing much ball-handling outside of 12 feet, but he has never really had to in his career

 

[perezident]

Heheheheh. You're actually trying to use "Miller is quicker than Shaq" as a rationale for your statements? Mike D'Antoni having Shaq on his squad had absolutely less than nothing to do with Shaq's relative quickness (and there are two words I never expected to use in conjunction with Shaquille O'Neal).

You might try having the discussion without the huge chip on your shoulder.

No no no you miss understood what i said, i was making reference to what he said about Miller being slow in D'Antoni's style of play...

And Williams is a Center he was drafter as a Center played Center at duke played Center for the Hawks and he plays Center for the kings! Why cant you see and understand that he's a Center??

 

[rhythmless]

as far as skillset, sheldon is a center. the only thing that puts him in the pf/c mold is his lack of size. in that respect, you would also say kenny thomas is a pf/sf just because k9 is 6'7".

greene's skillset is sf. he has the height, and maybe later on, the size to play pf, but he is an sf in terms of skillset.

these positions operate on a sliding scale, but to call out each other about it, and to use espn, or even the kings roster to try to disprove each other on this issue is just wrong, and stupid. remember, amare played center for seasons at a time, but he is a PF. "Period."

so both of you are both wrong and right. shut up about it.

edit: thanks pacboy for helping out...

 

[NME]

It's wishful thinking to make Shelden a center given his limitations as a PF, but unfortunately 6'9" and groundbound does not make a desirable center.

Regardless of all that, if we don't get a 1st in this (and the Knicks don't have one to give) I don't see the point. It removes the logjam for the bigmen, but rejams up the SF and it doesn't help Greene's development to try to force him to PF at this stage. The only value we get back is a SG prospect, which isn't a need. I don't know if people may be high on Collins, but at 24 he hasn't received minutes with the Knicks and wouldn't be looking at minutes here either. Hopefully there is a little better, or better fitting, value for Miller out there between now and the trading deadline.

 

[VF21]

His face-up game in general is extremely unpolished, being a center in a power forward’s body for the most part, maybe even a tweener. He has shown very little ability to shoot the ball outside of 15 feet, although this is just not his role at Duke so it’s hard to get a very accurate read on this. His ball-skills are just as raw. He dribbles with his head down, looking very stiff. You really don’t want him doing much ball-handling outside of 12 feet, but he has never really had to in his career.

Consdiering the assessment Pacboy posted above, perhaps I should amend my comment to something like: "Shelden Williams will NOT (in my most humble opinion) ever be a true successful center in the NBA" for the very reasons already outlined. And that's what is important, isn't it? He looks like a power forward and he shows none of the positive traits we want in a center going forward.

rhythmless - I think perezident and I can do quite well without you telling us to "shut up." If you aren't interested in the discussion, please move on to the next thread. Thanks ever so...

 

[perezident]

as far as skillset, sheldon is a center. the only thing that puts him in the pf/c mold is his lack of size. in that respect, you would also say kenny thomas is a pf/sf just because k9 is 6'7".

greene's skillset is sf. he has the height, and maybe later on, the size to play pf, but he is an sf in terms of skillset.

these positions operate on a sliding scale, but to call out each other about it, and to use espn, or even the kings roster to try to disprove each other on this issue is just wrong, and stupid. remember, amare played center for seasons at a time, but he is a PF. "Period."

so both of you are both wrong and right. shut up about it.

edit: thanks pacboy for helping out...

bro please take your time and watch how u talkin to me...we are having a sensible convo here ...
with that being said...ok Hakeem "the dream" was a 6'9 Center and a dominate one at that..... so you trying to tell me because of his height he's really a PF???

Another example: Sir Charles was GRACIOUSLY listed at 6'4 he's really more 6'2 6'3 1/4. But he played PF!! not SF not SG but PF!!

As you can see the height doesnt have much to do what position you play it has allll to do with the skill set and the will and desire to be the best player you can be at your respected position

 

[perezident]

Consdiering the assessment Pacboy posted above, perhaps I should amend my comment to something like: "Shelden Williams will NOT (in my most humble opinion) ever be a true successful center in the NBA" for the very reasons already outlined. And that's what is important, isn't it? He looks like a power forward and he shows none of the positive traits we want in a center going forward.

rhythmless - I think perezident and I can do quite well without you telling us to "shut up." If you aren't interested in the discussion, please move on to the next thread. Thanks ever so...

gr8 post to both comments

 

[bajaden]

No no no you miss understood what i said, i was making reference to what he said about Miller being slow in D'Antoni's style of play...

And Williams is a Center he was drafter as a Center played Center at duke played Center for the Hawks and he plays Center for the kings! Why cant you see and understand that he's a Center??

There have been a lot of players that have played center in college, but never played center in the NBA. Could Sheldon play center on certain occasions? Sure, but those occasions don't occur very often. Sheldon is a PF in the NBA. And, I might add, thats his problem..

He's simply not mobile enough to play the position, at least as a starter. He may be able to bring a different look off the bench, such as Turiaf did last year for the Lakers, but thats about it in my opinion. I suspect this will be his last year with the Kings.

 

[bajaden]

It's wishful thinking to make Shelden a center given his limitations as a PF, but unfortunately 6'9" and groundbound does not make a desirable center.

Regardless of all that, if we don't get a 1st in this (and the Knicks don't have one to give) I don't see the point. It removes the logjam for the bigmen, but rejams up the SF and it doesn't help Greene's development to try to force him to PF at this stage. The only value we get back is a SG prospect, which isn't a need. I don't know if people may be high on Collins, but at 24 he hasn't received minutes with the Knicks and wouldn't be looking at minutes here either. Hopefully there is a little better, or better fitting, value for Miller out there between now and the trading deadline.

I tend to agree with everything you said. I don't see where the trade makes us any better. I found the trade proposal with the Bulls more inticing. If this deal is the best we can do, then I think Miller has more value as a mentor on the team. By the way, I went back and looked up Sheldon's measurement history from the combine. He is 6' 7.5" with out shoes. He does have a 7' 4" wingspan though. But at any rate, he's a little short by PF standards, much less Center standards.

 

[beb0p]

So i guess then the knicks should trade Curry as well?? Listen to yourself PLEASE. Didnt D'Antoni have SHAQ on the squad?? Miller is quicker than Shaq right??

Ok if you dnt like the trade thats one thing but trying to use baseless logic to express your displeasure in the trade is silly!

Look Miller does in fact compliment Curry! Curry is a post up player Miller doesnt clog the lane by being in the paint as well while Curry is posting (what Randolph did last season).

I never even suggest the Knicks should trade Curry. As for D'Antoni, he had Shaq at C and Amare at PF. You don't need all five guys running the break but you CANNOT get away with only three guys being able to get out and run, which is what happens when you pair Curry with Miller. Think about it, would you put Brad Miller next to Shaq on the 07-08 Suns? You can get away with it, for so', but it isn't ideal.

I think what you're trying to say is that Miller is a better fit than Zach Randolph next to Curry. I'll give you that. But that doesn't mean Miller compliments Curry in the neo-Suns system.

And with the whole Curry not passing out of double teams well thats not my problem that the coaches problem to ensure he does.

Yup, you just make the trade and let the coaches figure out how the pieces fit together. Nice.

 

[rhythmless]

bro please take your time and watch how u talkin to me...we are having a sensible convo here ...
with that being said...ok Hakeem "the dream" was a 6'9 Center and a dominate one at that..... so you trying to tell me because of his height he's really a PF???

Another example: Sir Charles was GRACIOUSLY listed at 6'4 he's really more 6'2 6'3 1/4. But he played PF!! not SF not SG but PF!!

As you can see the height doesnt have much to do what position you play it has allll to do with the skill set and the will and desire to be the best player you can be at your respected position

ey bro i never siad that sheldon wanst a center. i AGREED with you bro. look waht you quoted. "sheldon has the skillset of a center." i even used kenny thomas to disprove that just because he has the height of a forward, he is still a center by skill. i also dont think youre catching my sarcasm about listed positions vs true positions.

...i agreed with you. i said you were right. go read it again

as far as the "sensible convo," you seem like a little kid bantering, and vf is taking a very arrogant tone with you, which i dont think you are catching...

you guys are funny. continue. ill let you guys have your sensible convo while i watch the entertianment that is this sensible convo. well just "agree to disagree."

 

[Telemachus]

And Williams is a Center he was drafter as a Center played Center at duke played Center for the Hawks and he plays Center for the kings! Why cant you see and understand that he's a Center??

Williams was drafted as a PF who played C at Duke. A lot of PFs play C in college. This is why JT is listed as a C when everyone knows that his future is at PF. And Williams played PF for Atlanta. Pachulia was the C there in 06-07 (with Wright as his backup). And before the trade last year, Al Holford was at C with Pachulia backing him up.

I agree with another poster that said Williams style of play is more along the lines of a C. Unfortuneately, he just doesn't match up well with other Cs around the league. He's just not big enough for the position, and lacks the athleticism to help make up for his lack of size.

 

[Section 101]

Williams was drafted as a PF who played C at Duke. A lot of PFs play C in college. This is why JT is listed as a C when everyone knows that his future is at PF. And Williams played PF for Atlanta. Pachulia was the C there in 06-07 (with Wright as his backup). And before the trade last year, Al Holford was at C with Pachulia backing him up.

I agree with another poster that said Williams style of play is more along the lines of a C. Unfortuneately, he just doesn't match up well with other Cs around the league. He's just not big enough for the position, and lacks the athleticism to help make up for his lack of size.

Agree.

Shelden is not a center. Just because you can't shoot the ball and have to play next to the basket getting your shot rejected by the other teams center doesn't make him a center. In fact, after this year I wouldnt even count on him being an nba anything.

 

[SacKings7]

bro please take your time and watch how u talkin to me...we are having a sensible convo here ...
with that being said...ok Hakeem "the dream" was a 6'9 Center and a dominate one at that..... so you trying to tell me because of his height he's really a PF???

Another example: Sir Charles was GRACIOUSLY listed at 6'4 he's really more 6'2 6'3 1/4. But he played PF!! not SF not SG but PF!!

As you can see the height doesnt have much to do what position you play it has allll to do with the skill set and the will and desire to be the best player you can be at your respected position

Ummm, no he wasn't...

I agree with rhythmless that Williams has the skillset of a center, but is in a Pfs body. If height had nothing to do with it, then Miller would be playing spot minutes at PG for us.

 

[English]

I think that Sheldon is a human being.