Kings Fan Gerard
Bench
Yeah, why replace a 7 foot post player with a 6-6 post player? I just don't get it!
Interest in Chuck Hayes?
- Thread starter sidney
- Start date
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I hope we start hearing some other, more meaningful names in the coming week. We can expect to see more starting monday, as that's when courting and visits can start.
But we didn't wait all these years, saving up the cap room, and clearing space to spend it on a midget center, and a guard who'd be 3rd/4th in the backcourt pecking order.
These rumors really don't even make sense, in terms of our needs.
But we didn't wait all these years, saving up the cap room, and clearing space to spend it on a midget center, and a guard who'd be 3rd/4th in the backcourt pecking order.
These rumors really don't even make sense, in terms of our needs.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
It is a concern not so much because of Chuck Hayes himself, who as I have noted might bring a hardnosed mentality, but because of what our pursuit of him could mean about our plans for our current frontcourt. Hayes might be the least talented big minute player in the NBA, but he is used to getting those big minutes and its hard to see him wilingly signing someplace unless they guarantee him time. And on our squad there just absolutely is none at all for a player such as him unless we start tossing some of our bigger, more talented personnel overbaord to make room for him. This isn't Jon Brockman who you can bring in as an end of the bench scrub to give you some toughness. This is a guy used to playing 25min a night in Houston for years, albeit mostly because they had no options.
And here's the thing: last year our frontcourt worked. We finished 2nd in the entire NBA in rebounding. 2nd. Us, the Sacramento Kings. We went big, and physical, we beat people up and took the ball away from them, and that was while being sabatoged by another twerp in Carl Landry for half the season. Changing that and going small after we finally found a strength last year juat does not impress me as a great idea. We've got something we can do. Build around it. Don't get cute and destroy it. Hayes at least is the right style/mentality fo player. But he's tiny and you have to always wonder about that.
6'11" DeMarcus Cousins (post All Star: 30.5min 14.2pts 9.3rebs)
6'11" Samuel Dalembert (post All Star: 29.8min 11.4pts 11.1rebs) (or Nene, Chandler, etc.)
6'9" J.J. Hickson.......... (post All Star: 31.5min 16.9pts 10.8reb)
6'11" Jason Thomspon (post All Star: 26.5min 10.0pts 6.8reb
7'0" Hassan Whiteside
First of all look at those numbers -- taken as a group that's the deepest frontcourt in the NBA. But secondly, where/how are you going to fit a 25min a game 6'6" guy in there? Answer: you can't. All you can do is put his 28.2min 7.9pts 8.1reb in place of one of the other guys' minutes. Maybe it would make sense if we used one of the other guys in trade, about it.
And here's the thing: last year our frontcourt worked. We finished 2nd in the entire NBA in rebounding. 2nd. Us, the Sacramento Kings. We went big, and physical, we beat people up and took the ball away from them, and that was while being sabatoged by another twerp in Carl Landry for half the season. Changing that and going small after we finally found a strength last year juat does not impress me as a great idea. We've got something we can do. Build around it. Don't get cute and destroy it. Hayes at least is the right style/mentality fo player. But he's tiny and you have to always wonder about that.
6'11" DeMarcus Cousins (post All Star: 30.5min 14.2pts 9.3rebs)
6'11" Samuel Dalembert (post All Star: 29.8min 11.4pts 11.1rebs) (or Nene, Chandler, etc.)
6'9" J.J. Hickson.......... (post All Star: 31.5min 16.9pts 10.8reb)
6'11" Jason Thomspon (post All Star: 26.5min 10.0pts 6.8reb
7'0" Hassan Whiteside
First of all look at those numbers -- taken as a group that's the deepest frontcourt in the NBA. But secondly, where/how are you going to fit a 25min a game 6'6" guy in there? Answer: you can't. All you can do is put his 28.2min 7.9pts 8.1reb in place of one of the other guys' minutes. Maybe it would make sense if we used one of the other guys in trade, about it.
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sidney
Starter
Couple things: per48 Hayes is not terrible as a rebounder at 13.8 last year. Dalembert is at 16 per 48 as a reference.
It's possible Dalembert is asking for 5/60M or something similarly insane so Petrie is moving on to Chuck Hayes as the backup plan. We already have 3 talented big guys but all young so Hayes would be the hard nosed vet they covet to stabilize the crew with no other reasonable options available.
I don't like it, but it's possible. I'd rather try and trade for Okafor's 3 year contract if we can't get Dalembert/Chandler in there
It's possible Dalembert is asking for 5/60M or something similarly insane so Petrie is moving on to Chuck Hayes as the backup plan. We already have 3 talented big guys but all young so Hayes would be the hard nosed vet they covet to stabilize the crew with no other reasonable options available.
I don't like it, but it's possible. I'd rather try and trade for Okafor's 3 year contract if we can't get Dalembert/Chandler in there
I think it is important to note however, that our rebounding numbers were inflated in part to our large number of offensive rebounds, which was high not only because we grabbed a lot of offensive rebounds but because we missed a lot of shots.
I think it is important to note however, that our rebounding numbers were inflated in part to our large number of offensive rebounds, which was high not only because we grabbed a lot of offensive rebounds but because we missed a lot of shots.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Just to make a slight correction here, we were 4th, not 2nd. But it wasn't just 4th in total rebounds, it was 4th in rebounding differential and rebounding percentage too. In other words it had nothing to do with how many shots we missed, we just flat out grabbed a higher percentage of rebounds than all but a handful of teams. Our neighborhood was CHI +5.8 ORL +3.5 MIA +2.9 SAC +2.7 LAL +2.5 OKC +2.2 which is absolutely the neighborhood you want to be in. And I don't know whay anybody should be surprised about that other than just Kings non-rebounding tradition. We trotted out 3 6'11" guys on our frontline, all of whom are good rebounders, and a strong rebouding PG to boot.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Am I the only one thinking that this may be a negotiating tactic in order to induce Sam Dalembert to come sign with the Kings quickly ("Hey Sam, if you don't sign with us quick, we'll just 'replace' you") and, as a result, cheaply (less time for other teams to drive up demand for him)?
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I've been going the other way and tring to figure out who we are going to trade JT for (Cousins is untouchable, Daly isn't ours, we just went out and picked up Hickson, Whiteside has no real value, so logic suggest sJT would be the victim). Problem is most of the guys I would be interested in are already free agents, and JT wouldn't even make that big an impact for some of the teams if we did sign and trades to get Battier or Ak47 etc. Those teams already have complete frontcourts. In fact Utah has as big a logjam up front as we do. I pondered Igoudala again, Philly could use a quality big, but it couldn't be JT straight up, and the next logical guy to join the package would be Salmons, who left Philly as an unwelcome dog, and who I am not sure can be traded until the end of the month (be 6 months since we got him). You could sub in Cisco, but then does he have real value, adn how much leadership did we just lose there as maybe the two best returnign King leaders get swapped out in one package.
Anyway, as I mentioned there are flat out no minutes for Chuck Hayes on this basketball team as currently constructed. If he is coming, then that means somebody else is going. My fantasy that's brillliant! scenario would be us resigning Daly, bringing in Hayes, and then trading JT as part of a package for one of the ace defensive SFs around the league so that suddenly we have a defensive core that could change our culture. But as mentioned, a number of the best defensive SFs are free agents anyway, and there isn't a clear line.
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sidney
Starter
There would be a minutes crunch with Cousins/Hayes/JT/Hickson but there would be a minutes crunch with Cousins/Dalembert/JT/Hickson too. It's not clear to me yet how Hickson will fit in yet and I wouldn't ship out JT until it was clear yet how this team looks. If Salmons bombs we may need to trade a big for a SF. If Salmons surprises and the Hayes or Hickson move looks awful we may need a change up front sooner.
Nice thing about signing Dalembert it we already know how well he works here. Let Hickson and JT fight for the 3rd big spot and use the other to improve whatever weaknesses show.
Circa_1985_Fan
All-Star
You really think we'd get a 1st round pick for JT?! Oh, and just my two cents on Chuck Hayes: HELL NO!!!
MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
There is a logic to signing Hayes and Dalembert while trading JT. It's not logic that I am a fan of, because I would take JT over Hayes any day of the week. BUT if something like that went down we will have set ourselves up with a pretty good defensive and offensive combination at the big spots... with everyone being able to play with everyone.
Hayes would work well defending some of the smaller/stronger bigs in the WC .. guys like Randolph and Griffin, while Dalembert goes to work against the taller guys. Like basically everyone said, Hayes is fine, but doesn't seem like a great fit on this roster right now. Especially if he still wants to play major minutes.
Hayes would work well defending some of the smaller/stronger bigs in the WC .. guys like Randolph and Griffin, while Dalembert goes to work against the taller guys. Like basically everyone said, Hayes is fine, but doesn't seem like a great fit on this roster right now. Especially if he still wants to play major minutes.
boffacheerios
G-League
I'd rather have chuck hayes than sam dalembert. Yes, i said it. Chuck hayes is the kind of guy who never asks for plays, and never complains about calls or bitches at his teammates. He is literally the PERFECT role model for cousins. I remember how generally unhappy i was every time dalembert pulled up from 20 only to rim out and be nowhere near the basket to rebound, added to the fact that we don't need any offense from him when we have cousins. Hayes and Dalembert put up similar numbers last year contrary to popular belief (Hayes doesn't block shots though). His wide base allows him to physically keep players from backing him down and he takes charges like a pro. Make no mistake, Chuck Hayes defends the basket. For a much smaller price tag we're getting :
Dalembert: 8 points, 8 rebounds, 1.5 blocks, .8 assists, 1.7 TOV in 24 minutes
Hayes: 8 points, 8 rebounds, .7 blocks, 2.7 assists, 1.2 TOV in 28 minutes
Statistically they are very close. With Sammy getting more blocks and Hayes getting more assists. Start Hickson and Cousins with Hayes getting big minutes off the bench alongside cousins. Every offseason he's gotten better, and believe it or not his free throws aren't as ugly as they use to be, he's actually gotten fairly consistent. A guy like Hayes leads by example, and i think pretty quickly when these young guys see how hard he works it'll begin to rub off. Just to give a few examples of why this is the kind of guy i think we need check these out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6f5Uyu6Dv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbRZZLD48B4&feature=fvwrel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_rYIzgGXOg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL8JIVrWUEA&feature=related
So bring on the "you're an idiot" comments, but this is my genuine opinion.
Dalembert: 8 points, 8 rebounds, 1.5 blocks, .8 assists, 1.7 TOV in 24 minutes
Hayes: 8 points, 8 rebounds, .7 blocks, 2.7 assists, 1.2 TOV in 28 minutes
Statistically they are very close. With Sammy getting more blocks and Hayes getting more assists. Start Hickson and Cousins with Hayes getting big minutes off the bench alongside cousins. Every offseason he's gotten better, and believe it or not his free throws aren't as ugly as they use to be, he's actually gotten fairly consistent. A guy like Hayes leads by example, and i think pretty quickly when these young guys see how hard he works it'll begin to rub off. Just to give a few examples of why this is the kind of guy i think we need check these out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6f5Uyu6Dv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbRZZLD48B4&feature=fvwrel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_rYIzgGXOg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL8JIVrWUEA&feature=related
So bring on the "you're an idiot" comments, but this is my genuine opinion.
J
jdbraver
Guest
I'd rather have west than hayes.
SacKings7
Starter
Stats don't always tell the whole story. Dalembert is a 7 footer who has good shot blocking ability. He may only average 1.5 blocks per game, but he intimidates opponents in the paint and has surely altered many shots, a stat that is not recorded. Hayes might be a good post defender, but he is hardly intimidating at 6'6. I'm 6'2, and I wouldn't be intimidated by Hayes if he were standing in my way in the paint. I agree that he is the kind of player we need, but unfortunately in basketball, size matters.
ParniValjak
All-Star
I am staggered how quickly people forget what it is like to not have a 7 footer shot blocking force on the team.
With Sammy D, we no longer resembled a team that allowed their opponents to practice their lay up drills. We locked down the paint and started playing some really good basketball towards the end of last season. Now all of a sudden Sammy D is no longer good for us because there is this 6'6 midget who has similar stats but nowhere near the intimidation of Sammy D.
Newsflash people, there is a reason why a contender like Miami is showing interest in Dalembert and not Hayes and it has nothing to do with their similar stats. You pay for what you get!
If we lose Dalembert, that tells me that this team is NOT serious about winning and we will NEVER win anything until we have an interior defender like Dalembert on our team. Someone that will block shots and intimidate the opposition. There is only a small number of players that can play with Cousins in this league. We have one right under our nose and all of a sudden we would be happy to let him go?!
Great thinking people! I look forward to Chuck Hayes intimidating Pau Gasols and Andrew Bynums of this world with his shot blocking prowess
With Sammy D, we no longer resembled a team that allowed their opponents to practice their lay up drills. We locked down the paint and started playing some really good basketball towards the end of last season. Now all of a sudden Sammy D is no longer good for us because there is this 6'6 midget who has similar stats but nowhere near the intimidation of Sammy D.
Newsflash people, there is a reason why a contender like Miami is showing interest in Dalembert and not Hayes and it has nothing to do with their similar stats. You pay for what you get!
If we lose Dalembert, that tells me that this team is NOT serious about winning and we will NEVER win anything until we have an interior defender like Dalembert on our team. Someone that will block shots and intimidate the opposition. There is only a small number of players that can play with Cousins in this league. We have one right under our nose and all of a sudden we would be happy to let him go?!
Great thinking people! I look forward to Chuck Hayes intimidating Pau Gasols and Andrew Bynums of this world with his shot blocking prowess
boffacheerios
G-League
It's not that i don't value dalembert, but I think the price tag will be too high in the end for a guy who isn't an elite player. If We're not going for an elite player at center, I'd just as well save the money by signing hayes, Then invest in caron butler or AK. We had dalembert all year and we went 24-58. Without significant change to the roster, what's going to change in the record? If you want a 7 footer for the sake of intimidation throw whiteside in and see what happens. Guaranteed players will be just as weary to drive on him. Whiteside isn't ready yet, but if the argument is that size is everything, then there you go. Finally, I'm 6'2" also and i'd be scared as hell to drive on Chuck Hayes. What he lacks in height he makes up for in shear mass, the guy is a tank.
ParniValjak
All-Star
Oh please!
With all due respects, Whiteside is currently not fit enough to tie Dalembert's shoe laces. He played 2 minutes last year and was picking up fouls left right and center. He wouldn't intimidate anyone and is years away from being able to provide that.
On Dalembert, when he actually recovered from his injury and started getting some consistent minutes, the team was playing .500 ball and that is despite Evans having an injury riddled season and missing chunks of games and when he did play he was no where near as effective.
If you are going to apply that criteria to Dalembert why don't you also apply it to Hayes?! Last time I checked, Houston was also a lottery team with Hayes as their C and a perennial play off team with a 7'5 guy manning the middle in years gone past.
Chuck Hayes intimidates no one. He does not provide any rim defence and players like Gasol, Buynum, KG, Nowitzki, Aldridge et al just shoot over him all day long. I would rather pay Dalembert $10 million than Hayes $5 million....you cannot teach length.
Hayes is strong so as a result he makes it difficult for players to post him up. He can hold his spot against quite a few NBA bigman BUT he does not protect the ring, he does not intimidate anyone as a shot blocker or a goalie.
Like I have said, he is a right type of veteran glue guy to have on your roster but for a team that is serious about winning, he is a 4th or 5th big off the bench and not a major cog in the wheel. Like I said, there is a reason why contenders like Miami are showing strong interest in Dalembert but no one really is THAT interested in Hayes.
Dalembert has done this his entire career. He is among the all time leaders in shotblocking and he is an excellent rebounder per 48 minutes. He has also proven that he can play effectively with Cousins which is a major plus for us. He provides flexibility because he is able to guard both PFs and Cs which allows us to "hide" Cousins defensively. Hayes has had 1 solid season, Dalembert has done this his entire career. There is a distinct difference in talent between Hayes and Dalembert and it is also a reason why one will get a bigger pay check than the other. Players of Dalembert's ability (in terms of what aspect of the game they bring to the team) are the 2nd most important type of player on a championship winning team besides your superstar/s.
A player like Dalembert will ALWAYS[\b] have a role to play on a contending team while Chuck Hayes would be a Mateen Cleaves of the PFs/Cs on those teams. A veteran presence who is exceptional at waving towels, pealing oranges and coming in for spot minutes to make some fouls and break up the tempo of the game.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
He did that all in two minutes?
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Lol! Ha. Thanks for the laugh.
Yeah right, i'm sure I never made the mistake of thinking Hayes can protect the paint, let alone anywhere near as effectively as Daly.
He works extremely hard because he's an under-skilled midget, for the NBA. When you have no height, no athleticism, and no offensive skill, of course you're going to work hard. What else can he rely on besides effort?
I'd go through the effort of posting advanced stats, showing how ridiculous of an argument this is, but it really isn't worth the time. Wonder why Miami isn't going after Hayes to solidify their defense......but want Daly instead.
boffacheerios
G-League
You're right, Dalembert does all those things. He's still not worth what he's going to get paid. You realize Tyson Chandler is asking for a MAX contract? What makes you think Dalembert, a player who admittedly is not far behind chandler skill wise, won't ask for close to the same? These guys are GOING to take advantage of all the teams with a lot of cap room, and i for one don't want any part of it. Next years free agent list is much better than this year and I can't justify spending for the sake of spending. I say let him walk and save for something better. I never suggested replacing Sammy with Hayes, the idea is to have a high motor work horse off the bench. Apparently I'm the only one here who thinks anything of JJ Hickson.
KingsInBrazil
G-League
are u kidding me?! Hell no to that guy... so many quality bigs to go after and we are bringing 6'6 Hayes? What a joke!
Nene, Chandler, Jordan, Gasol... geez list goes on and wait? CHUCK HAYES!? Give me a break no no no no no no... hell no! wake me up of this nightmare
Nene, Chandler, Jordan, Gasol... geez list goes on and wait? CHUCK HAYES!? Give me a break no no no no no no... hell no! wake me up of this nightmare
LPKingsFan
All-Star
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Some things worked but some others didn't, it comes down to how important Dalembert really was in relation to those numbers. IMO this team isn't going to drop into the bottom of the league in rebounding without Dalembert. Dalembert's biggest contribution to the team was rebounding, I think that's pretty well covered with or without him.
The stats that trouble me more that those stats make me feel good is how bad this team was with turnovers and in assists and in FG differential. One common theme amongst all the top teams in the league last year was that they could run an efficient offense. While Dalembert compliments Cousins in some areas there are others where he just absolutely hinders this team. His spacing was horrible. Cousins would be working the paint or making a move, or Evans would be making a drive into the paint and there's Daly clogging the area waiting for the offensive rebound although I think part of that was flawed coaching. I think this teams love affair with going for offensive boards was counterproductive to actually running an efficient offense where the key focus was creating space for it's two most talented players.
Bottom line, while this team gobbled up offensive rebounds it was still a miserable defensive team with or without Dalembert. I would love to have Dalembert back, but there is certainly an argument for Hayes considering he is good at doing many of the things Dalembert is not.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
First, lets not exaggerate. You can't pick up fouls left and right in 2 minutes of one game, and even if you could, its certainly not an indication of anything. Its just one game. I have hope for Whiteside in the future. But that aside, I still desire having Dalembert on the team, and I'd certainly have him ahead of Hayes on my list. But I should point out that Hayes is rated by synergy.com as one of the top post defenders in the league last season. And he was rated ahead of Dalembert. That said, Dalembert brings things that Hayes is incapable of. Two things I do like about Hayes over Dalembert is that he's a much better passer, and he never demands the ball. And I think he's to be commended for that. I think for you to describe him as no better than a towel waver is ridiculous. I'd rather have Dalembert as well, but that doesn't mean I have to denigrate Hayes to make my point.
How about this. Lets wait till we see what the final roster is before getting our panties in an uproar. It cracks me up how people are ready to lynch someone over something that hasn't even happened.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Then again, Hayes can do things Dalembert can't. Like set an effecitive screen, shut down a wing player when switched onto them, catch the ball, and understand his role offensively.
boffacheerios
G-League
If I could hug you I would...... haha
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I don't have the stats in front of me, but the difference in our points scored and points allowed was dramatic. It was close to 6 points a game, and your not going to win too many games with that big a spread. We did fine in rebounding +/-, but once again got in trouble in the difference in the assists and turnovers area. We scored around 100 pt's a game but allowed around 106 pt's a game. That has to change if were going to make an kind of dramatic improvement. Now if you look at the last 20 games of the season those numbers are quite different, and thats reason to be optimistic. And, thats the reason I want both Dalembert and Thornton back.
We had something going at the end of the season, and I'd hate to throw that away without finding out just how much better we can be. We traded Casspi for Hickson. Casspi contributed little last year. One can argue as to why and who to blame, but at the end of the day, he had little to do with how we finished the season. So subtracting him from the equation means little. Adding Hickson could be a bigger plus than we know. Hickson played his best when he wasn't the focus of the offense. While Lebron was there he had a plus 50% FGA. Without Lebron there, his percentage dropped quite a bit. In other words he scored more, but was less efficent while doing it. On the Kings he once again wouldn't be the focus of the offense. So coming off the bench, he might be able to be the high energy guy that comes in and impacts a game.
What I don't see is having both Dalembert and Hayes on the same team. Unless as Bricky suggested, were trading either Thompson or Hickson. And frankly, I'd rather have either one of them over Hayes, especially if Dalembert is on the team. I just can't see us carrying more than 4 bigs. So if were really trying to bring Dally back, the Hayes thing confuses me.
