Guard glut

[SacTownKid]

Buddy's wingspan doesn't help him play defense. He is bad no matter who he guards. Here's the thing, right now Mitchell is better defensively than Buddy no matter who he guards (don't care if they are 5'11 or 6'11). Chris Paul has been guarding players bigger than him his whole career & he is 6'0 with a 6'4 wingspan.

I disagree, and we shouldn't rank defenders as either garbage or great and/or throw out role and resposibility in the process. Buddy by all accounts when you watch him was actually not bad defensively in certain areas. The team scheme was terrible all the way around however as evidenced by the fact that most of the better net rating 5 man units defensively last year had Buddy in them but none were that good. The problem is the Kings lack and did lack fundamental aspects of what it typically takes to be decent defensively in a league so based on switch defense and wing size. Paul doesn't guard some of the players Buddy was forced to last year and no coach would put him in that position routinely. Buddy was often used as a defacto SF defensively.

 

[The_Jamal]

yep. The problem is 6’ 8” decent 3 and D wings are so hard to find teams rarely trade them and as we just saw they will reach for them in the draft.

So would you have Monte draft for need (on his big board, not ours) over what his BPA was? I would have taken Moody too in that slot, but my big board was obviously different than his.

Can't agree more on the importance of wings in today's league. It's the most valuable position to fill once you find your elite creators. Hopefully it's something Monte makes a priority moving forward since he's pretty heavily invested in the guards/bigs.

 

[SacTownKid]

definitely don't underestimate mitchell. He has elite lateral quickness/anticipation and is strong

For sure, however when teams go "small", force the Kings to switch, and the Kings have to run out to shooters to contest will be the question as it is with any team expecting to run a crop of 6'5" and under players at the 1-4. Hopefully they keep the pressure up and switch into equal pressure because teams will continue to spread the Kings out and shoot over the top all night regardless of how good an on ball defender is otherwise. Walton used the on ball defenders he had last year but in a team set while undersized so we know what the result is. Mitchell will help a great deal with his instincts but they have to find themselves on both ends before they know what they will be. They could be a lock down team, but maybe not. Then the situation gets a little sticky with any team stacked at basically 2 positions if they can't all succeed offensively at the same time. This is still a team with exactly 1 superstar level potential talent and that's Fox. Every decision has to be based around that.

 

[SacTownKid]

So would you have Monte draft for need (on his big board, not ours) over what his BPA was? I would have taken Moody too in that slot, but my big board was obviously different than his.

Can't agree more on the importance of wings in today's league. It's the most valuable position to fill once you find your elite creators. Hopefully it's something Monte makes a priority moving forward since he's pretty heavily invested in the guards/bigs.

At this point I think he should have been even more aggressive in attempting to move down Vlade style and still get Mitchell depending on his intel from other teams or get back in later. Even the wings taken past the lottery are looking legit. Greg Brown would sure be a nice get now.

 

[sactowndog]

So would you have Monte draft for need (on his big board, not ours) over what his BPA was? I would have taken Moody too in that slot, but my big board was obviously different than his.

Can't agree more on the importance of wings in today's league. It's the most valuable position to fill once you find your elite creators. Hopefully it's something Monte makes a priority moving forward since he's pretty heavily invested in the guards/bigs.

I don’t think like most things it’s black and white. Last year I thought Hali was a good pick even though we had guards. This year with Mitchell its less clear. And I love what I have seen in Mitchell. Heck I’m willing to trade Fox.

To answer your question given our roster, what was available and our needs I probably would have drafted Jalen Johnston or Zaire. But trading Fox for Simmons might be an even better option if you believe in Mitchell.

Mitchell could well be the poster child of why you do or don’t especially draft guards as BPA. Trading big for small is always easier.

 

[Jkbiker]

My takes on the discussion:

1. I agree with sactowndog that trading Simmons for Fox theoretically improves the Kings. Reason: as sctDawg mentioned, a better improvement over replacement. The reason it might not work: concerns with BS attitude and character.

2. I would rather use Buddy + Marvin in trade for a good 3 + D SF and keep Fox.

I went through all the other NBA Teams trying to find a team with a shortage of quality SGs
that might have a good 3&D wing for a trade - Man I just dont see it

Denver - per spotrac has 5 PG , 0 SG, 3 SF
Wil Barton makes 15m? Not sure they would make a Buddy for Barton trade, no way they trade MPJ

Most other teams are pretty much set at SG and/or dont have a starting SF they would part with to match salary

I think only possible trade would be Pels Hart and/or Sato for Buddy, but I dont see either as a starting SF
and after looking at Pels Board not sure we would even get a 1st rd pick

Maybe by trade deadline teams needs change, but I think we are stuck with Buddy/Bagley
SF - Barnes(part),Buddy(part),Harkless PF Bagley,Barnes(part),Metu

 

[The_Jamal]

I don’t think like most things it’s black and white. Last year I thought Hali was a good pick even though we had guards. This year with Mitchell its less clear. And I love what I have seen in Mitchell. Heck I’m willing to trade Fox.

To answer your question given our roster, what was available and our needs I probably would have drafted Jalen Johnston or Zaire. But trading Fox for Simmons might be an even better option if you believe in Mitchell.

Mitchell could well be the poster child of why you do or don’t especially draft guards as BPA. Trading big for small is always easier.

Right, but we obviously have very different evaluations of where Moody/Mitchell/JJ/Williams were on the big board.

If Mitchell was say 6th, and he had JJ 14th, Williams 12th, Moody 15th, etc, are you fine with him "reaching" on the wing because of the need? Assuming no trade down available, because there really wasn't a ton of movement in the lottery with trades.

 

[sactowndog]

Right, but we obviously have very different evaluations of where Moody/Mitchell/JJ/Williams were on the big board.

If Mitchell was say 6th, and he had JJ 14th, Williams 12th, Moody 15th, etc, are you fine with him "reaching" on the wing because of the need? Assuming no trade down available, because there really wasn't a ton of movement in the lottery with trades.

Depends. If you think Mitchell is close to Fox then you make the pick and make the trade. If not you don’t spend 9 on a backup and you reach for a big. I’m not even sure you can trade down if you wanted Williams as he went right after us.

 

[Telemachus]

Depends. If you think Mitchell is close to Fox then you make the pick and make the trade. If not you don’t spend 9 on a backup and you reach for a big. I’m not even sure you can trade down if you wanted Williams as he went right after us.

This is faulty thinking. Bad teams stay bad because they don't take the best player available regardless of need. Most teams rate players in tiers. If you have a tier 2 player available that is redundant, but the best player who fits a need is a tier 3 player, then you take the tier 2 player. Now I don't where the Kings had the players rated, but I would assume that is this pick went. Talent rises to the top and you figure out how to use them together.

 

[sactowndog]

This is faulty thinking. Bad teams stay bad because they don't take the best player available regardless of need. Most teams rate players in tiers. If you have a tier 2 player available that is redundant, but the best player who fits a need is a tier 3 player, then you take the tier 2 player. Now I don't where the Kings had the players rated, but I would assume that is this pick went. Talent rises to the top and you figure out how to use them together.

In general I would agree with you but most things taken to an extreme is equally faulty. I would argue Monte put himself into this spot by not trading Barnes for Nesmith and a 1st in a deep draft. But once in it he had this problem.

not paying any attention to fit is part of what got Vlade in trouble. How did the Buddy/Bogi overlap work out?

 

[ockingsfan]

I expect that teams will sit on their current roster until closer to training camp. Once we get to the start of training camp, trades will be made, because teams will not want their disgruntled players to become distraction to the new season. Teams are also sitting and waiting for offers to improve for their players.

I think we will see a lot more player movement right before and at the beginning of training camp at the beginning of October

 

[rosa u podne]

I went through all the other NBA Teams trying to find a team with a shortage of quality SGs
that might have a good 3&D wing for a trade - Man I just dont see it

Denver - per spotrac has 5 PG , 0 SG, 3 SF
Wil Barton makes 15m? Not sure they would make a Buddy for Barton trade, no way they trade MPJ

Most other teams are pretty much set at SG and/or dont have a starting SF they would part with to match salary

I think only possible trade would be Pels Hart and/or Sato for Buddy, but I dont see either as a starting SF
and after looking at Pels Board not sure we would even get a 1st rd pick

Maybe by trade deadline teams needs change, but I think we are stuck with Buddy/Bagley
SF - Barnes(part),Buddy(part),Harkless PF Bagley,Barnes(part),Metu

Ok, is the situation better with stretch bigs who are decent at defense?

 

[Jkbiker]

Ok, is the situation better with stretch bigs who are decent at defense?

Kings send Buddy to Mavs, 1st rd pick Damien Jones, Woodard to Bulls,
Kings get Porzingas
Mavs get Markkanen S&T 13m/yr, Buddy
Bulls get 1st rd pick to facilitate, Filler contracts

Why for Kings: We get Stretch big that can defend, send out surplus SG and C
Why for Mavs: get Buddy and Lauri shooting next to Luka
Why for Bulls: get Minmal salary, better1st rd pick they wanted from NO

Fox,Mitchell,Ramsey
Hali,TD
Barnes,Harkless,King
Porzingas,Bagley,Metu
Holmes,TT,Len,Quetas

 

[The_Jamal]

In general I would agree with you but most things taken to an extreme is equally faulty. I would argue Monte put himself into this spot by not trading Barnes for Nesmith and a 1st in a deep draft. But once in it he had this problem.

not paying any attention to fit is part of what got Vlade in trouble. How did the Buddy/Bogi overlap work out?

This is like 15th on the list of things that got Vlade in trouble. Buddy and Bogi were two of Vlade's wins in terms of actually finding a good player. The problem was 5 years on the job, 8 first round picks, 2 free-agent summers with the ability to spend and all he had to show for it was Fox/Buddy/Bogi/Barnes/Holmes/Bagley. That was the end-result of a 5 year plan. A $100+ million core that had yet to make the playoffs.

 

[Section 101]

This is like 15th on the list of things that got Vlade in trouble. Buddy and Bogi were two of Vlade's wins in terms of actually finding a good player. The problem was 5 years on the job, 8 first round picks, 2 free-agent summers with the ability to spend and all he had to show for it was Fox/Buddy/Bogi/Barnes/Holmes/Bagley. That was the end-result of a 5 year plan. A $100+ million core that had yet to make the playoffs.

All Vlade had to do was draft Luka and he would still be here.

 

[SacTownKid]

This is like 15th on the list of things that got Vlade in trouble. Buddy and Bogi were two of Vlade's wins in terms of actually finding a good player. The problem was 5 years on the job, 8 first round picks, 2 free-agent summers with the ability to spend and all he had to show for it was Fox/Buddy/Bogi/Barnes/Holmes/Bagley. That was the end-result of a 5 year plan. A $100+ million core that had yet to make the playoffs.

Vlade actually was more concerned about fit then any previous GM he just clearly had no clue on the right coach or system to make it work, if even possible at all. The issue was he stacked at positions. He used the money and assets he had to create an impossible situation when it came to minutes and rotation for players expecting to play and created a roster that only looked good on paper. Saying you're 15 players deep is like saying theres gold up there in them hills from your vantage point at sea level. The Kings somewhat mirror that exact problem now at PG/C. As a result they all fed off of eachother and leached from one anothers productivity and created declining assets that would continue to decline every second they remained on the books. Buddy/Bogdan. Bagley/Holmes/Dedmon. Fox/Hill. Now, hopefully that doesn't repeat with Fox/Haliburton/Mitchell and in order for it not to, they HAVE to run that 3 PG rotation consistently or risk diminished value.

 

[EIM86]

He bullies them because they’re normally really weak. He’s had issues powering past Fox since Fox has bulked up and Davion is 200+ as a six footer and that weight isn’t fat.

yah he’s LB for LB strong so he’s got a better chance then Hali Thats for shre

 

[EIM86]

The other thing is that you don't need Mitchell giving you 30 minutes at the 3. You probably need him giving you 8-12 so that you can run some lineups with Mitchell/Fox/Hali. But for the most part, Mitchell will be playing with Fox or Hali, not both. In the future (post-Buddy) I think you are building toward this:

PG- Fox (32) Mitchell (16)
SG- Hali (32) Mitchell (8) Davis (8)
SF- Mystery Wing (32), Mitchell (8) Davis (8)
PF- Barnes (32) Stretch 4/maybe Metu (16)
C- Holmes (32) second defensive big (16)

I list Mitchell with 8 minutes at SG and 8 at SF, because I think you will want to find time with all three guards on the court (probably closing time), but again, I think most time is two of the 3 small guards, not all 3. How good this team is depends on the ceiling of Fox, Hali, and Mitchell, and who that mystery SF is. If we can't trade Buddy, I am guessing he slots in to the 32 SF minutes, at least until we can trade for/draft that position.

But that breaks down at Fox (32), Hali (32), Mitchell (32), SF (32), Barnes (32) and Holmes (32). 6 main guys, plus three more main rotation pieces - Davis (16), Metu (16), backup C (16) - for a regular 9 man rotation.

why does everybody keep forgetting about Bagley lol

 

[Section 101]

why does everybody keep forgetting about Bagley lol

I wish I could

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1427374712984834048

 

[Rain man]

why does everybody keep forgetting about Bagley lol

He might be here this year, but he isn’t a long term solution I don’t think. I was projecting where this might go in the next few years.

 

[NewArena]

why does everybody keep forgetting about Bagley lol

I think we're all assuming he'll get hurt again. But i guess i'll give him one last shot in hopes that he'll win me over in some way or whatever. Ugh

 

[EIM86]

I think we're all assuming he'll get hurt again. But i guess i'll give him one last shot in hopes that he'll win me over in some way or whatever. Ugh

dont bother lol. He’s gonna hurt the tip of his pinkie and be out for 3 months

 

[midtowner]

dont bother lol. He’s gonna hurt the tip of his pinkie and be out for 3 months

Just the tip?

 

[EIM86]

Just the tip?

any more of the pinkie and it’s 6 months lol

 

[NewArena]

Just the tip?

This is a family friendly website, guys.

 

[ppine]

The Kings have had success with 3 guards. They will probably use the 3 guard set even more this year.
Fox and Mitchell are really quick. Halliburton has some length and needs to get stronger.
Hield has size but can't play defense. He costs too much to come off the bench.
Barnes can play the 4 a lot of the time.
This scheme makes Bagley less important. He has trouble staying healthy and struggles with defense. He is likely to get traded.

 

[Kingz19]

I think they’ll make it work with Fox, TH, and Mitchell.

After all, Cory Joseph managed to play 21 minutes on average, and up to 30 minutes some nights when Fox and TH were healthy. Mitchell will likely have the same role as Joseph, only we expect him to actually be good.

I’m less clear on where TD gets a significant amount of minutes if Buddy remains and Hali’s minutes at SG expected to rise

 

[upinsmoke]

Less is more with regards to Buddy.

 

[EIM86]

Less is more with regards to Buddy.

we can hide Bagley at least with Buddy out.