A point guard log jam

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sactowndog

All-Star
#1
#1
Okay time to create some conversation….

the Kings signed Monk expecting him to play as a 6 man off the bench. Instead he proved himself as a top point guard.

Has Malik spent his career playing out of position? Is he truly a point guard?

Do the Kings yet again have a glut at point between Fox, Malik and Davion?

Should the Kings trade Malik to be a starting point guard to somewhere like Orlando where he could start and make starter money? Could it be another win-win?
 
Sluggah

Sluggah

All-Star
#3
#3
Malik is a gestalt type of dude for the Kings. Value-wise, he will definitely mean more to us than he will to another team so I’m not sure there’s a realistic asset available that would make it worth it (and that’s not even taking the bargain contract side of things into account).
 
S

sactowndog

All-Star
#4
#4
ockingsfan said:
I wouldn’t trade Malik, he means too much to the team and Fox.

He’s the heart of our bench and may slide into the starting SG next to Fox, if Brown shakes up the starting unit. I consider Monk a core piece moving forward.
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yes and no.

I think Malik is truly best as a point guard who has played off guard due to Fox for many years. He could imho be a starting point guard in the NBA and make starting point money. As his friend, I doubt Fox would say don’t go do that…. I know I wouldn’t if it were my friend.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#5
#5
He's not a PG. I saw a combo-guard with playmaking skills in the vein of a Zach Lavine/Brad Beal. Excellent 2-man game passer with some real flash, but I didn't see much in terms of him being the main ball-handler that orchestrated the offense like Fox or even Davion. He certainly was the best PnR passer on the team though. But his real skill is scoring and if that FTr from the playoffs is anywhere near sustainable? Oh boy, now we're talking.

He can be a starter here, playing off Fox. Why wouldn't that work? Sounds like you've boxed yourself into thinking he's a starting point guard that can't work with Fox... when we just saw that pairing take the defending champs to 7-games. The bet is to move forward that he can be Zach Lavine with the bigger minutes workload and plan the team in that fashion. I think if you sold him now, you're not really going to get the right value for him, especially as an expiring contract.
 
S

sactowndog

All-Star
#6
#6
Sluggah said:
Malik is a gestalt type of dude for the Kings. Value-wise, he will definitely mean more to us than he will to another team so I’m not sure there’s a realistic asset available that would make it worth it (and that’s not even taking the bargain contract side of things into account).
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I think it’s the opposite. For a team like Orlando he could easily be a 30M a year starting point guard. The Kings can’t start him over Fox. I could see Orlando offering us 11 for Malik.
 
S

sactowndog

All-Star
#8
#8
The_Jamal said:
He's not a PG. I saw a combo-guard with playmaking skills in the vein of a Zach Lavine/Brad Beal. Excellent 2-man game passer with some real flash, but I didn't see much in terms of him being the main ball-handler that orchestrated the offense like Fox or even Davion. He certainly was the best PnR passer on the team though. But his real skill is scoring and if that FTr from the playoffs is anywhere near sustainable? Oh boy, now we're talking.

He can be a starter here, playing off Fox. Why wouldn't that work? Sounds like you've boxed yourself into thinking he's a starting point guard that can't work with Fox... when we just saw that pairing take the defending champs to 7-games. The bet is to move forward that he can be Zach Lavine with the bigger minutes workload and plan the team in that fashion. I think if you sold him now, you're not really going to get the right value for him, especially as an expiring contract.
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I haven’t boxed myself into anything and I don’t think he is a great starter next to Fox as he isn’t long enough defensively to contain a Booker of similar player.

I do think he could be a very good point guard if given the keys. The Kings often had him initiate the offense for us.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#10
#10
Age 24 seasons. Guess who is who!

Player 1:

Per 36:
26.4 PPG
4.4 APG
5.0 RPG
38% from 3

31.7% USG
13.3% TOV
56.8 % TS
21.7% Ast
7.7% TRB
.279 FTr

Player 2:

Per 36:
21.8 PPG
6.2 APG
4.3 RPG
35.9% from 3

25.8% USG
14.1% TOV rate
25% Ast
6.7% TRB
.260 FTr

Player 3:

Per 36:
22.5 PPG
4.5 APG
4.4 RPG
37.5% from 3

27.6% USG
11.5% TOV
21% Ast
6.9% TRB
.249 FTr
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#11
#11
sactowndog said:
Okay time to create some conversation….

the Kings signed Monk expecting him to play as a 6 man off the bench. Instead he proved himself as a top point guard.

Has Malik spent his career playing out of position? Is he truly a point guard?

Do the Kings yet again have a glut at point between Fox, Malik and Davion?

Should the Kings trade Malik to be a starting point guard to somewhere like Orlando where he could start and make starter money? Could it be another win-win?
Click to expand...
I don't think Monk is a pure PG. He's good in PnR, but we haven't really seen him run an entire offense from start to finish. I don't think he can consistently bring the ball up the court. As a PG, his ball handling is on the looser end. I think he's a combo-guard.

Him and Fox are an undersized back-court and this is why he fits a lot better as the 6th man.

I'd be interested to see what his value is around the league, but I don't think you can trade him because it'll seriously screw up the chemistry. I'm not sure how high his trade value is. He's an expiring unrestricted free agent with no birds rights.
 
K

kingsfan101

Starter
#13
#13
sactowndog said:
I think it’s the opposite. For a team like Orlando he could easily be a 30M a year starting point guard. The Kings can’t start him over Fox. I could see Orlando offering us 11 for Malik.
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I think it's hardly a jam, given that Monk is more of a combo guard. I also don't expect Orlando to offer him 30M, particularly when Fultz has started to come around a bit.

I could see them moving the pick for someone like Monk though. They have a bunch of promising young players who could benefit from some secondary ball handling, veteran shot making and leadership. They are not getting a Kyrie Irving to fill that role, but someone like Monk could check some of the boxes.

That said, I wouldn't trade him (or any other core piece) for a rookie/pick, unless it absolutely was a one-sided trade. We want to make a deep playoff run with the current roster, and not make moves for the "future" right now. Lucky/smart teams are sometimes able to do both, but as of now, I would stick to the the team making incremental changes, and hoping that some of Keegan/Davion/Neemias/Edwards/Keon (particularly Keegan) take the next step to push us to the next level. I would rather trade our pick than get one if it helps us land a difference maker.
 
KingsFanSince85

KingsFanSince85

All-Star
#14
#14
The_Jamal said:
He's not a PG.
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He’s certainly not.

This take is kinda coming from outta nowhere.

At no time has MM been a PG, while at Kentucky nor with the KINGS. I didn’t see him play much at CHAR or LAL, but I’m fairly certain he wasn’t used as one there either.

MM is a shooter/scorer. First and foremost. But he’s shooter/scorer that can do other things well and isn’t one-dimensional. He can handle the ball really well. He can drive and dish. He can play in the PnR.

But he’s not a primary ball handler. He’s an undersized 2-guard with some lead guard skills.

That’s why he wasn’t drafted as high as he could have been. Kinda like Steph Curry, had Monk been a considered a true PG — he’d have been drafted top 3 because of his shooting/scoring ability.

But like Steph, he was mostly considered to be an undersized 2-guard.

While MM can certainly handle the rock, he doesn’t possess Steph like ball handling or vision. He’s great in stretches as a primary ball handling option when Fox is out of the game or playing off the ball, but as a full-time PG? I don’t think most front office personnel see him that way.
 
S

sactowndog

All-Star
#18
#18
KingsFanSince85 said:
He’s certainly not.

This take is kinda coming from outta nowhere.

At no time has MM been a PG, while at Kentucky nor with the KINGS. I didn’t see him play much at CHAR or LAL, but I’m fairly certain he wasn’t used as one there either.

MM is a shooter/scorer. First and foremost. But he’s shooter/scorer that can do other things well and isn’t one-dimensional. He can handle the ball really well. He can drive and dish. He can play in the PnR.

But he’s not a primary ball handler. He’s an undersized 2-guard with some lead guard skills.

That’s why he wasn’t drafted as high as he could have been. Kinda like Steph Curry, had Monk been a considered a true PG — he’d have been drafted top 3 because of his shooting/scoring ability.

But like Steph, he was mostly considered to be an undersized 2-guard.

While MM can certainly handle the rock, he doesn’t possess Steph like ball handling or vision. He’s great in stretches as a primary ball handling option when Fox is out of the game or playing off the ball, but as a full-time PG? I don’t think most front office personnel see him that way.
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I would say his vision was surprisingly good. He has more assists per game than Davion and frequently ran the office.

The bolded part is kind of the point. His ball handling and passing were a bit of a revelation this year. He clearly has potential to be more than just an undersized 2 guard coming off the bench for minutes. I think no front office personal saw him that way previously but I think he clearly opened some eyes that his potential is greater than an undersized 2 guard.

But can he maximize that potential here?
 
D

dude12

Hall of Famer
#20
#20
The lines between what a PG is and isn’t has become blurred over the years. I think MM is a great guy to run the PNR with Domas. Problem is that we need another big who can run PNR effectively so that Domas can rest. Len isn’t that guy, Metu?, Holmes was good with Hali but he’s not going to play. Would be awesome if Neemi could be that guy.

I think we need a Delly clone for the deep bench
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#21
#21
I saw Malik playing PG out there more often than Davion when the two played together. Call him whatever you want, but he does the majority of the ball handling off the bench. The offense just simply runs smoother with him operating it off the bench.

He's essentially untradeable. Solid player, cheap, will more likely resign with us, great locker room guy and Fox's best friend.
 
S

sactowndog

All-Star
#22
#22
ESP47 said:
I saw Malik playing PG out there more often than Davion when the two played together. Call him whatever you want, but he does the majority of the ball handling off the bench. The offense just simply runs smoother with him operating it off the bench.

He's essentially untradeable. Solid player, cheap, will more likely resign with us, great locker room guy and Fox's best friend.
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will he? I suspect he may be offered a lot of cash to be a teams primary point guard.
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#23
#23
We have a guy who is in an ideal role as the third guard off the bench - who is an offensive spark plug due to his shooting and ability to attack the rim, and we think we need to trade him? Why? Because he's also an excellent playmaker?

I just don't see the logic here.

How would trading Monk improve the team?
 
upinsmoke

upinsmoke

All-Star
#24
#24
funkykingston said:
We have a guy who is in an ideal role as the third guard off the bench - who is an offensive spark plug due to his shooting and ability to attack the rim, and we think we need to trade him? Why? Because he's also an excellent playmaker?

I just don't see the logic here.

How would trading Monk improve the team?
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The first sentence in the thread is why. Hold your horses everyone the draft will be here in less than a month.

"Okay time to create some conversation…."
 
D

dude12

Hall of Famer
#25
#25
upinsmoke said:
The first sentence in the thread is why. Hold your horses everyone the draft will be here in less than a month.

"Okay time to create some conversation…."
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If we are trying to create some conversation, why don’t we ask ourselves why Jimmer isn’t on our roster!!!
 
Capt. Factorial

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
#26
#26
sactowndog said:
will he? I suspect he may be offered a lot of cash to be a teams primary point guard.
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Perhaps, but will he want to leave?

Monk seems to have found his happy, happy place in Sacramento. He made the playoffs for the first time, he's playing with his very close friend, the fans love him, and if things go as we expect, we should make a decent playoff run next year and be poised to be a championship contender over the course of his next deal. Does he value those factors more than money? I might.
 
Sluggah

Sluggah

All-Star
#27
#27
The_Jamal said:
Age 24 seasons. Guess who is who!

Player 1:

Per 36:
26.4 PPG
4.4 APG
5.0 RPG
38% from 3

31.7% USG
13.3% TOV
56.8 % TS
21.7% Ast
7.7% TRB
.279 FTr

Player 2:

Per 36:
21.8 PPG
6.2 APG
4.3 RPG
35.9% from 3

25.8% USG
14.1% TOV rate
25% Ast
6.7% TRB
.260 FTr

Player 3:

Per 36:
22.5 PPG
4.5 APG
4.4 RPG
37.5% from 3

27.6% USG
11.5% TOV
21% Ast
6.9% TRB
.249 FTr
Click to expand...
The suspense is killing me!
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#28
#28
Sluggah said:
The suspense is killing me!
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I know #2 is Malik from the 3pt shooting.

I'm going to guess #1 is Harden based on the usage. His age 24 year was (I think) his first in Houston. But the FTr seems way too low.

I don't know on #3. The 3P% is too low to be Curry. Probably the assists too. Maybe Ginobili?

EDIT: Just realized Manu didn't play in the NBA until he was 25
 
beb0p

beb0p

Starter
#29
#29
sactowndog said:
I would say his vision was surprisingly good. He has more assists per game than Davion and frequently ran the office.

The bolded part is kind of the point. His ball handling and passing were a bit of a revelation this year. He clearly has potential to be more than just an undersized 2 guard coming off the bench for minutes. I think no front office personal saw him that way previously but I think he clearly opened some eyes that his potential is greater than an undersized 2 guard.

But can he maximize that potential here?
Click to expand...

Monk is a good off-the-bench two-guard who can run some plays and see the floor like what you'd expect a starting NBA two. An argument can be made that he may be good enough to start as a SG somewhere but calling him a PG is a reach, let alone a starting PG. There are skill and knowledge involved in being a PG that I don't think Monk has.

First thing that comes to mind is he is not a methodical coach-on-the-floor kind of player, which is what you want from a PG. Monk is very attack minded and will force plays even if they're not there.

Second thing is his handle is not as tight as you'd want from a PG. It's good enough for a two, but comparing him to a Kyrie/Fox/Brunson/Trae and you can see the difference.

Third is, does Monk even want to be a PG?? You move an attack-minded I-have-the-green-light type of player to a role where he has to be calculating, dictate the tempo, keeps tab on how many fouls for your teammate, keeps tab on how many fouls for your opponents, find mismatches, feed the ball to guys who aren't getting enough touches, etc. A PG is different role than the SG. Not everyone can make the switch or even want to. Tyreke couldn't do it. Jamal Crawford failed at it. Some guys are just born to play SG. I'd put Monk in that group.
 
S

sactowndog

All-Star
#30
#30
Capt. Factorial said:
Perhaps, but will he want to leave?

Monk seems to have found his happy, happy place in Sacramento. He made the playoffs for the first time, he's playing with his very close friend, the fans love him, and if things go as we expect, we should make a decent playoff run next year and be poised to be a championship contender over the course of his next deal. Does he value those factors more than money? I might.
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He might not but when you have the opportunity to make generational money one has to think hard about it….
 
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