Artest: "I'm Not Retiring"
- Thread starter Purple Reign
- Start date
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Oh, I think Ron is not only our best player, but our most effective player in whatever our system is supposed to be, and the +/- type numbers back that up. He's the guy who makes the biggest difference for us, and after the first few months of the season its been he, not Kevin, not Mike who has been the differencemaker again. Setting aside FT shooting, he has also been our most efficient offensive player -- he shoots better from everywhere on the floor over that span than either Kevin or Mike (even downtown). And he's better on defense on his worst day than those guys are on their best.
But all that said, does not really matter. There's a good argument to be made that he is the third most talented player to ever put on a Kings uniform (Webb, Mitch). But its a team sport, and unless you really are Kobe (not just incredibly deluded), then the effect you have on your teammates is critical. Ron is very talented, he may be better than all these other guys, but not only does he not raise them up, he throws them into constant chaos. How can you ever develop a cohesive team/lockerroom, get into any kind of rhythm with this kind of mess constantly bouncing off the walls? Be bad enough if he was a 12th man, but its particularly amplified when its your best guy. Then its just impossible to ignore. And the wild inconsistentcy from game t4o game, half to half makes it impossible to even coount on production game to game. This is really the difference this year from last -- last year for that half season Ron did something I never thought he could, an he got the rest of the Kings to buy into his wackiness (assist to Adelman for paving the way). But he was still nuts, and our guys were really nuts for listening to him. Unfortunately that kind of nuttiness gets old rather quickly. And then you're just left with a mess.
But all that said, does not really matter. There's a good argument to be made that he is the third most talented player to ever put on a Kings uniform (Webb, Mitch). But its a team sport, and unless you really are Kobe (not just incredibly deluded), then the effect you have on your teammates is critical. Ron is very talented, he may be better than all these other guys, but not only does he not raise them up, he throws them into constant chaos. How can you ever develop a cohesive team/lockerroom, get into any kind of rhythm with this kind of mess constantly bouncing off the walls? Be bad enough if he was a 12th man, but its particularly amplified when its your best guy. Then its just impossible to ignore. And the wild inconsistentcy from game t4o game, half to half makes it impossible to even coount on production game to game. This is really the difference this year from last -- last year for that half season Ron did something I never thought he could, an he got the rest of the Kings to buy into his wackiness (assist to Adelman for paving the way). But he was still nuts, and our guys were really nuts for listening to him. Unfortunately that kind of nuttiness gets old rather quickly. And then you're just left with a mess.
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Miles and Miles
G-League
I have seen several people in this thread say Ron "Is not a bad person." I am curious what would make someone a bad person?
Kingster
Hall of Famer
But what you omit is his basketball IQ. He makes poor decisions at the end of games. And as you know, in the NBA the last 4-5 minutes of the game usually is the game-deciding time, so the effects of his poor decision making are amplified. He dribbles much too much at the end of games. He's not a good one-on-one player, but he thinks he is, so he'll go outside the offense to make his own shot. If he were Kobe, he could get away with the cowboy approach to basketball, but he's not.
I'd put Vlade in top 3 before Artest.
bibbinator
Bench
Artest was good in the playoffs last year. Even at the game ends.
I'd rather get rid of Muss and see if he's the problem. It's easy to find Muss level talents. Artests don't come around very often.
I'd rather get rid of Muss and see if he's the problem. It's easy to find Muss level talents. Artests don't come around very often.
LilMissDiva
Bench
WHATTA WORLD!!
WHATTA WORLD!!
WHATTA WORLD!!
WHATTA WORLD!!
WHATTA WORLD!!
WHATTA WORLD!!
WHATTA WORLD!!
=(poof)=
WHATTA WORLD!!
WHATTA WORLD!!
WHATTA WORLD!!
WHATTA WORLD!!
WHATTA WORLD!!
WHATTA WORLD!!
=(poof)=
Ron is not like most people. He's like a 16 year old that has terrible judgement and does stupid things, except that the 16 year old is very likely to grow out of it. Because Ron won't grow out of it, doesn't mean that he's evil. It just means that you want to keep him at a safe distance.
He's going to throw a kegger anyway, so let him do it down by the levee. Don't hand him the keys to your car and ask him to house sit.
Miles and Miles
G-League
I'm not saying Ron IS a bad person I think he just has a screw loose. But if you add up the facts...
1. Accused wife beater.
2. Accused dog abuser.
3. Started the "biggest brawl in sports history".
4. Sounds like a locker room cancer. Screaming at coaches and teammates.
5. Retires and unretires in the course of two days because he needs attention.
6. Etc, etc, etc, etc...
It doesn't sound good.
I think the reason that he unretired is because Petrie probably told him that Muss will be fired after the season. That's just my guess.
1. Accused wife beater.
2. Accused dog abuser.
3. Started the "biggest brawl in sports history".
4. Sounds like a locker room cancer. Screaming at coaches and teammates.
5. Retires and unretires in the course of two days because he needs attention.
6. Etc, etc, etc, etc...
It doesn't sound good.
I think the reason that he unretired is because Petrie probably told him that Muss will be fired after the season. That's just my guess.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Now you're getting into a completely different discussion of what constitutes a bad person.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Lets keep Muss until Artest retires and we void his contract.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Malice.
Not carelessness, lack of self-control etc. But malice, intentional selfishness, intent to harm, planned aggression. Ron's not a guy I would want to be around, not a guy I would trust, but its because he's an overgrown child, not because I think he would intentionally set out to hurt me or those around me.
Miles and Miles
G-League
So if he PLANNED to beat his wife that would make him bad? Just asking.
bibbinator
Bench
Planning an evil act and then executing it is worse than simply executing an evil act without the prior intent, at least according to the law.
Miles and Miles
G-League
I completely agree. But if you stabbed someone without planning it first then you aren't a bad person?
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Are you trying to turn this into an ethics debate? Trying to define a bad person is a difficult and very subjective thing to do. Also, stabbing is very different and a lot more severe than anything Ron has done (that we know of).
CaminoChaos
Bench
No, Please retire.
Dime Dropper
All-Star
I'm certainly not defending Rons actions, but I think if Ron was a "wife-beater" than his wife wouldn't be in such good health. He is extremely strong, if he used any force on her it would be like the average man using alot of force. Again, I'm not condoning Rons actions, but I don't think it's completely fair to judge him so harshly when we don't know exactly what happened between them.
They obviously have had some problems, she seems as much to blame as him IMO going on what we know. She smashed up his car, and from what I've heard alot of what she did was just spiteful.
I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong, just giving my opinion.
I really have no view on whether he should stay or leave, I'll support this team regardless.
They obviously have had some problems, she seems as much to blame as him IMO going on what we know. She smashed up his car, and from what I've heard alot of what she did was just spiteful.
I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong, just giving my opinion.
I really have no view on whether he should stay or leave, I'll support this team regardless.
kingzzzfan4ever
G-League
I totally agree with ballapete. Everyone liked Artest last season and now everyone is getting on his case and talking trash about him. He plays well on the COURT and hes a great asset for the Kings.
Padrino
All-Star
a lot of it has to do with the fact that the kings are losing. simple as that. if the kings were a winning team with a legitimate shot at upsetting the competition in the playoffs, then we'd still be having this conversation, but artest wouldn't be the target of nearly as much crap as he's gotten in just about every thread created here since december, when everybody who hadn't already figured it out began to realize just how bad the kings really are.
Wrong. Simply wrong.
There were any number of fans who were worried right from the beginning about the potential of Ron Artest to be a disruptive influence but were willing to give him a clean slate when he became a King.
As long as it was about the game, things were fine. But now he's become so disruptive that he just isn't worth the trouble.
We aren't talking trash about him. He DID have an animal taken away because of malnourishment. He WAS arrested on domestic violence charges. He HAS said things in the press that have caused major headaches for the front office.
As far as him playing well on the court, that's debatable also. He's missed games because of his off-the-court problems. He is capable of playing very well at both ends of the court but that doesn't always mean he'll do so.
Great asset for the Kings? An asset is something of value that can be exchanged for something else of value. Right now, Artest is about as far from an asset as you can get. There are very few, if any, teams that would be willing to take on his shipping crates of baggage.
If he could just shut up and play, MAYBE it would be a little better but I don't think so. There aren't many coaches out there who could get through to Ron and control him. Eric Musselman certainly isn't one of them and there's no guarantee any other coach we might hire could either.
Sorry, but Ron Artest is his own worst enemy and the Kings don't need to be part of the battle.
That's really putting the blame on us instead of Artest and it's not fair.
We didn't allow his animals to be neglected. We didn't call the police over a half-dozen times on domestic disputes at his home in Loomis. We didn't get into a physical altercation with Mrs. Artest that resulted in domestic violence charges being filed.
As I said about, Artest is his own worst enemy not the fans of the Sacramento Kings. Don't believe it? Go ask the fans of the Indiana Pacers...
Padrino
All-Star
winning cures a lot of ills. fans of any professional sport will tell you that. i'm not putting the blame on anybody. i just don't see the point of people getting so worked up about ron artest being on the team. the amount of indignance on the board concerning ron-ron has been startling the last couple of months, to say the least. and all the feelings of self-entitlement have been near laughable, in my opinion. i just turned 20 years old, but even i can remember the backside of the bad ole days. i went to my first kings game when i was eight. i love this team just as much as the next person, but i believe its rather silly to go around proclaiming that "ron artest doesn't belong on my team." it's almost as childish as ron himself. i find ron artest to be a disagreeable person, but that's about it. he's immature and irresponsible, as are many other nba players who sign multi-million dollar contracts after coming from poor backgrounds. animal neglect? i don't really want to hear about it, to be honest. i can guarantee that ron was not sitting in his hotel room, devilishly running his hands together with thoughts of his dogs starving. domestic abuse? now that's a big deal, but the full details of the story haven't been released. all we know is that ron and his wife were fighting, and both are guilty of overstepping their boundaries.
allen iverson has been accused of stuff similar to all of this and more, yet many people here were salivating at the opportunity to bring in a dynamic scorer who could help generate wins. i'll say it again: winning cures a lot of ills. if the kings were a winning team and could compete in the playoffs, people might look at ron as they do now, but i guarantee they wouldn't be calling for his head, because he would no doubt be instrumental in the kings playoff chances. ron artest would be less of a "distraction" in the locker room if the kings were winning. it cures a lot of ills. he's happy as a peach when his team is winning. the fans are, too, because he's a dynamic player that can bring a lot to a team. however, the kings are not a winning team, and i happen to believe removing ron artest from the team is necessary for the security of the kings future, but that's because i believe in an inexpensive youth movement. i don't hold anything against ron, personally, because the nba is not full of david robinson's anymore. it's full of spoiled, immature young people who aren't held to any standards (except the suit they must where which is somehow supposed to polish their otherwise rough exteriors).
The NBA might well be full of spoiled immature young people but that doesn't mean they have to be on the Kings. Sorry, Padrino, but there are things that are worth arguing about and things where apparently we have such great conceptual differences that future dialog would simply not be productive. This is one of those cases.
It's not about the particulars. It's about the whole package for me.
And for the record I don't recall anyone thinking Ron premeditated any of this stuff. It doesn't matter.
Winning may cure a lot of ills but winning at all costs can also ruin a franchise.
Peace.
EDIT: My main request is that Artest simply quit talking to the media and just do the job he's being paid millions of dollars to do. Unfortunately I don't think he can do that. And, for that reason primarily, I think he'd be better off elsewhere.
It's not about the particulars. It's about the whole package for me.
And for the record I don't recall anyone thinking Ron premeditated any of this stuff. It doesn't matter.
Winning may cure a lot of ills but winning at all costs can also ruin a franchise.
Peace.
EDIT: My main request is that Artest simply quit talking to the media and just do the job he's being paid millions of dollars to do. Unfortunately I don't think he can do that. And, for that reason primarily, I think he'd be better off elsewhere.
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Padrino
All-Star
i've got no problem disagreeing with people. i don't even have a problem with agreeing to disagree.
i think this sort of dialogue is good, though, because professional sports, in concept, are a silly thing. we watch 10 people run up and down a court, throwing a ball through a metal ring. and those 10 people get paid a whole helluva lot more doing that for just one year than many of us will be paid in our entire lifetimes, doing much more noble work, no doubt. point is, we do it anyway, because this is america, dammit! we don't root for personalities in sports. the color commentators provide us with enough of that. on the court, we like the good guys, we detest the bad guys, but its the abilities of the people that really matters to us, in the end. personalities are nice, but its fluff in comparison to the importance of the game in our lives.
our team is our team at all costs, good guys or bad. if i thought ron artest was someone who could help the kings go forward from here on out, then i'd hope we would hold on to him, baggage and all. i don't believe its as black and white as "winning and losing" or "winning at all costs." i believe its more about a franchise putting themselves in a position to put an entertaining product on the court that puts fans in the seats. for a small market team, its a bit easier, because that team is the only game in town. however, marty mac might be right about the state of kings fans. we might just be a bit spoiled. we might just be indignantly sitting on our suburban high horses, playing armchair gm. and, in principle, there's nothing wrong with that, really. that's the nature of sports.
we've tasted winning, and we expect winning, and when the team doesn't win--and when a lot of negative focus is directed at one player--we tend to pounce on that. i'm just trying to get people to think a little bit before they post ludicrous, grandiose judgements about a human being they don't even know. we can debate all day long about whether or not ron artest is a "bad person," but in the end, that may not be what matters. greg oden might be a great guy...or maybe he's a horrible human being, what do i know? but he sure as hell could help the kings out.
point is, things are magnified for ron artest, because he's an nba target, and he's not real bright. the kings aren't somehow "too good" for someone like that. we're just too spoiled. vlade was a real nice guy, peja was a real nice guy...jason williams was a hoodlum, but he was exciting. chris webber wasn't a saint, but when he flashed that smile, he made you believe he was. brad's a nice guy, mike's an indifferent personality with a desire to win, kevin martin's a real nice guy, and yes, ron artest is a whackjob, but if they created the magic that the adelman kings did, my guess is that it wouldn't really matter.
of course, this is all philosophy, so feel free to disagree.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Whether Artest plans this crap or not, it's undeniable that it DOES affect the team. You can't have these kind of distractions all the time, you just can't and it's a never ending trend with Artest.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
it has nothing to do with judging artest and just not wanting a "bad guy" on the team, it has to do with the distractions he inevitably causes. you can't have that kind of loose cannon on the team and you can't build around someone so unreliable. we're not in a win now mode so keeping artest on the roster just doesn't help us, there is no future with him.
Padrino
All-Star
sure it affects the team in that it doesn't exactly reflect the image that you want for the kings, but i still don't think this is a legitimate way to judge the situation. who says you can't have "distractions" all the time? the kings suit up and play every game, regardless, and what are the kings being "distracted" from, exactly? losing? the distractions aren't what is contributing to the losing, i'll tell you that much. the kings were losing this season before artest became such a big "distraction," and they're losing now after he's become a "distraction." if there's one admirable quality about ron artest its that he doesn't let his off-court crap interfere with basketball. he just put up 24 pts and 9 rebs in a win against the suns at the absolute height of all this "distracted" talk.
now, the retirement stuff is just typical open-mouth ron-ron banter. its interesting though, that he hints to the idea of leaving the nba altogether when his distractions do interfere with his on court play. i don't claim to understand what goes on inside that head of his, but artest as a person doesn't seem to correlate much to the kings success, and i imagine it won't until he's suspended by the league for something unlawful. artest as a player, on the other hand, may or may not be "distracting" his teammates' performance. artest has an invariably positive impact on the game, but he's also not the best decision maker on the court, and occasionally nullifies his efforts with faulty heroics. that is what we should be complaining about.
now we're actually getting somewhere concrete. this is the meat and potatoes. i've said on numerous occasions in this thread that i'd prefer artest to be moved, so i actually agree with you there, believe it or not. however, my reasoning is different, in that i don't really care about what happens to ron artest off the court if its not affecting the way the kings play as a team on the court, and i don't believe it has. however, given that either way, the kings are still a losing team, i'd rather see a youth movement in which the veterans we have are cashed in for developing younger players in the interest of building towards a viable future. in my opinion, ron artest is not a part of the kings future because of the way he plays and the inability of the coach to reel him in, and not because of his off-court problems.
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