Artest: "I'm Not Retiring"

[Vlade4GM]

sure it affects the team in that it doesn't exactly reflect the image that you want for the kings, but i still don't think this is a legitimate way to judge the situation. who says you can't have "distractions" all the time? the kings suit up and play every game, regardless, and what are the kings being "distracted" from, exactly? losing? the distractions aren't what is contributing to the losing, i'll tell you that much. the kings were losing this season before artest became such a big "distraction," and they're losing now after he's become a "distraction." if there's one admirable quality about ron artest its that he doesn't let his off-court crap interfere with basketball. he just put up 24 pts and 9 rebs in a win against the suns at the absolute height of all this "distracted" talk.

now, the retirement stuff is just typical open-mouth ron-ron banter. its interesting though, that he hints to the idea of leaving the nba altogether when his distractions do interfere with his on court play. i don't claim to understand what goes on inside that head of his, but artest as a person doesn't seem to correlate much to the kings success, and i imagine it won't until he's suspended by the league for something unlawful. artest as a player, on the other hand, may or may not be "distracting" his teammates' performance. artest has an invariably positive impact on the game, but he's also not the best decision maker on the court, and occasionally nullifies his efforts with faulty heroics. that is what we should be complaining about.



now we're actually getting somewhere concrete. this is the meat and potatoes. i've said on numerous occasions in this thread that i'd prefer artest to be moved, so i actually agree with you there, believe it or not. however, my reasoning is different, in that i don't really care about what happens to ron artest off the court if its not affecting the way the kings play as a team on the court, and i don't believe it has. however, given that either way, the kings are still a losing team, i'd rather see a youth movement in which the veterans we have are cashed in for developing younger players in the interest of building towards a viable future. in my opinion, ron artest is not a part of the kings future because of the way he plays and the inability of the coach to reel him in, and not because of his off-court problems.

Sure you can never "prove" the effect of distractions on players, but i think it's common sense that these players get tired of being asked questions about ron artest 24/7 instead of the team and if they're tire

funny how you write off his retirement talk as no big deal but then talk about how important it is to move artest. well his retirement talk is only going to hurt that process. after all that's happened this year with ron do you think we need teams to have even more reasons to avoid this guy? whatever reason you like the best ron cannot be kept.

 

[VF21]

...our team is our team at all costs, good guys or bad.

Wrong.

My team is a team I can enjoy watching and taking my children/grand-children to. It's not a team of thugs. Never has been and never will be. It's NOT just the abilities. It's the whole concept of TEAM.

You're mixing the whole thing, however. I have said time and time again that my main objection to Artest isn't a matter of good or bad, because I don't think he's in essence a bad person.

My main objection is that he's simply too high maintenance. He detracts from the team to the point where it's very aggravating to me. Again, as I said before, Kevin got POTW and it was overshadowed by Ron's domestic violence problems. Mike has a career and franchise night for threes and it's overshadowed by Ron's retirement talks. This is an everyday occurrence. It just seems to ALWAYS be about Ron Artest.

And don't kid yourself. The players aren't happy about all the focus, either. They just want to play the game; they do NOT like being asked time after time about the latest episode in the soap opera that is the life of Ron Artest. I can guarantee it.

 

[Padrino]

Sure you can never "prove" the effect of distractions on players, but i think it's common sense that these players get tired of being asked questions about ron artest 24/7 instead of the team.

funny how you write off his retirement talk as no big deal but then talk about how important it is to move artest. well his retirement talk is only going to hurt that process. after all that's happened this year with ron do you think teams need even more reasons to avoid this guy? whatever reason you like the best ron cannot be kept.

there's nothing ron can say or do at this point that will convince a team that he is or isn't worth their while, short of killing someone. it's not like he's exactly working from a clean slate. everybody was calling sacramento his "last chance" when he got here. people know what they're getting with ron. the maloofs just happen to be bigger gamblers than most owners in the nba.

 

[Padrino]

Wrong.

My team is a team I can enjoy watching and taking my children/grand-children to. It's not a team of thugs. Never has been and never will be. It's NOT just the abilities. It's the whole concept of TEAM.

You're mixing the whole thing, however. I have said time and time again that my main objection to Artest isn't a matter of good or bad, because I don't think he's in essence a bad person.

My main objection is that he's simply too high maintenance. He detracts from the team to the point where it's very aggravating to me. Again, as I said before, Kevin got POTW and it was overshadowed by Ron's domestic violence problems. Mike has a career and franchise night for threes and it's overshadowed by Ron's retirement talks. This is an everyday occurrence. It just seems to ALWAYS be about Ron Artest.

And don't kid yourself. The players aren't happy about all the focus, either. They just want to play the game; they do NOT like being asked time after time about the latest episode in the soap opera that is the life of Ron Artest. I can guarantee it.

i understand all that. what i'm trying to do is point out the difference to people. its a matter of preference, i guess, cuz it doesn't really aggravate me all that much. what aggravates me is management's ineptitude. they're suffering from sitting on their hands syndrome, and they hired a coach who is seemingly incapable of dealing with any kind of nba personality, much less the ron artest's of the world (and there are many in this league like ron-ron). as for the rest of the team...they may not like it that they're asked questions about ron artest all the time. i don't care. they're paid way too much money to get their panties in a bunch over a high maintenance teammate. when i see evidence of the ron artest drama affecting the results on the court, then i'll say you were right all along.

until that point, though, kevin martin's still going to improve. despite ron's best efforts at "taking all the spotlight," kevin martin is at the top of the competition to win the most improved player of the year award. mike bibby was still able to have that career night from beyond the arc. the media overshadows performance with drama because they're the media. the media is always more interested in drama than performance, because performance isn't interesting. it's good on the court, but boring on paper. drama is human interest, though, and is nailed to the front page every time. what i've been trying to say from the start is that kings fans are confusing personal feelings with performance. people are overestimating the negative impact that ron artest is having on the court. in the interest of the future, i'd prefer artest to be moved, but for the moment, all this talk just seems like much ado about nothing from where i'm sitting...leastways until it does impact what happens on the court.

 

[VF21]

what i've been trying to say from the start is that kings fans are confusing personal feelings with performance. people are overestimating the negative impact that ron artest is having on the court.

No, what you're missing is that to a lot of Kings fans the personal feelings are part of the package.

And just because you personally don't see the evidence of the Ron Artest drama affecting the results on the court, don't make the assumption there aren't any...

Performance isn't interesting? Says who?

Sorry, Padrino, but I think you're totally off on that, too. I still have the copies of the Sacramento Bee from 2002 and 2003. It WAS about performance.

If it seems much ado about nothing to you, that's cool. But it does seem to be something for a lot of people and I think they're going to contninue to talk about it...

Again, do not assume that you haven't seen an impact on the court just because it hasn't been specificially pointed out as such.

 

[Padrino]

No, what you're missing is that to a lot of Kings fans the personal feelings are part of the package.

And just because you personally don't see the evidence of the Ron Artest drama affecting the results on the court, don't make the assumption there aren't any...

Performance isn't interesting? Says who?

Sorry, Padrino, but I think you're totally off on that, too. I still have the copies of the Sacramento Bee from 2002 and 2003. It WAS about performance.

If it seems much ado about nothing to you, that's cool. But it does seem to be something for a lot of people and I think they're going to contninue to talk about it...

Again, do not assume that you haven't seen an impact on the court just because it hasn't been specificially pointed out as such.

that's because you're not a journalist.

to a journalist, the human being is more interesting than the numbers they put up. that's why the sports section of the bee does so many human interest stories about the individual players each season. the numbers aren't enough for people who deal in words. i understand performance is EVERYTHING to the fans. i agree. its all i care about, personally. but for the media, ron artest is a gold mine, so no matter how small of a demerit gets stuck to his resume, the bee and all the other outlets interested will overshadow the performances of other players to get a scoop inside ron artest's brain matter...cuz he's a total nutjob.

as for on the court performance, you are right...just because no member of the kings organization has pointed out that ron artest's behavior has negatively affected play on the court, it doesn't mean it hasn't. however, it doesn't affect ron's game at all. he's been consistently inconsistent all season, but he always comes to play. and people can continue to talk all they want. it don't make much difference to me either way. it just doesn't seem very practical to worry about a player who isn't really at the core of the kings problems. we should be worrying about brad miller's enormous contract, and how difficult its going to be to move. we should be worrying about kenny thomas' enormous contract, and how difficult its going to be to move.

if we can't move artest, we just won't re-sign him after next season. we've got thomas through '09-'10, though, and miller through '09-'10 as well. those are big picture issues. artest doesn't make much money in comparison. shoot, he makes a bunch less than KT. i could live with his 18.8 pts, 6.6 rbs, and 3.3 asts per game for another season if i absolutely had to endure it.

 

[VF21]

You might want to read the article I just posted.

 

[Troy]

Please take this outside!!!

Seriously, you both have great valid points.

The media is a monster of it's own and to hand Ron a Mike is bad in every situation....his music, his after game comment banter, and his teamate Mike Bibby who got back at him in a way without Ron knowing it with that aweful Mohawk!!!!

This season is sure a soap opera, good or bad!!!

GO KINGS!!!!!!

 

[VF21]

Please take this outside!!!

Don't worry. There's no anger or malice behind anything either Padrino or I have posted to each other.

 

[kennadog]

winning cures a lot of ills.

I can only speak for myself on this. I have never liked this saying. If people are really willing to look the other way and ignore bad behavior, just because the end result is what they want (winning), I can't join in.

That's saying that results matter more than character and I will never accept that as a value.

Some will say that is the way the world operates, but to me that doesn't mean that negative behaviors become acceptable the more people act that way.

I don't believe you have to excuse poor behavior to win and I won't accept that in my team for long. And how much bad behavior is acceptable, just to win? Where is the line? Is there a list of behaviors that aren't acceptable, unless the team is winning, then its okay?

 

[kupman]

The media is a monster of it's own and to hand Ron a Mike is bad in every situation....his music, his after game comment banter,

That is so on the money it made me LOL.

Really, handing Ron a mike is like handing a child a loaded gun.

 

[Bibbilicious]

wait, was that a crack at mike or ron?

 

[VF21]

wait, was that a crack at mike or ron?

It wasn't about Mike. The capital M was a mistype. "Mike" in that instance was short for microphone, not Mike Bibby.

 

[chelle]

people are overestimating the negative impact that ron artest is having on the court. in the interest of the future, i'd prefer artest to be moved, but for the moment, all this talk just seems like much ado about nothing from where i'm sitting...leastways until it does impact what happens on the court.

Maybe we are overestimating the impact that all of his drama is having on the court and with the other players. I doubt it, but it is possible. What I do know for certain, however, is that this is the first season where I have found myself almost ashamed to be a King's fan. Trust me, I have been a fan for a LONG time, so that has NOTHING to do with our record.

I may be old fashioned in my thinking, but "winning at all costs" is not a theory to which I subscribe. Sadly, I think we may have already sold our soul and the way back could be very long.

 

[Padrino]

Maybe we are overestimating the impact that all of his drama is having on the court and with the other players. I doubt it, but it is possible. What I do know for certain, however, is that this is the first season where I have found myself almost ashamed to be a King's fan. Trust me, I have been a fan for a LONG time, so that has NOTHING to do with our record.

I may be old fashioned in my thinking, but "winning at all costs" is not a theory to which I subscribe. Sadly, I think we may have already sold our soul and the way back could be very long.

there's a lot of truth to this. the kings have a lot of money tied up in a few players for a lot of years, and none of those players figure into any kind of "successful" future. it's probably gonna take a long time for the kings to rebuild. there are ways in which the cards could fall and we could end up on top in a short amount of time, but management has showed no signs of having the balls to risk that approach. not to mention that our gamble-crazy owners have tightened the purse strings the last few years, and have recently been neutered by the artest debacle. i don't imagine they're gonna want to be taking many big risks in the rebuild to follow. the kings greatest hope lies in the maloofs' willingness to surrender total management control to geoff petrie so that he can find the courage to initiate a full rebuild.

 

[chelle]

there's a lot of truth to this. the kings have a lot of money tied up in a few players for a lot of years, and none of those players figure into any kind of "successful" future. it's probably gonna take a long time for the kings to rebuild. there are ways in which the cards could fall and we could end up on top in a short amount of time, but management has showed no signs of having the balls to risk that approach. not to mention that our gamble-crazy owners have tightened the purse strings the last few years, and have recently been neutered by the artest debacle. i don't imagine they're gonna want to be taking many big risks in the rebuild to follow. the kings greatest hope lies in the maloofs' willingness to surrender total management control to geoff petrie so that he can find the courage to initiate a full rebuild.

While I agree with much of what you just said, I think you missed my point. I was not referring to money with my comment. I was referring to character.

 

[Padrino]

While I agree with much of what you just said, I think you missed my point. I was not referring to money with my comment. I was referring to character.

hm. well, "the way back" won't be so long then. one more season of artest isn't a great length of time, in the grand scheme of things.

 

[chelle]

It's not just his character that has me concerned.

 

[VF21]

hm. well, "the way back" won't be so long then. one more season of artest isn't a great length of time, in the grand scheme of things.

I think you've missed the point of what I believe chelle was trying to say. I don't know if I can express it accurately but it's more like a loss of innocence than a loss of money. (And that's just an attempt to find some kind of comparison. I'm not saying the Kings have actually lost any innocence. I'm saying they may have lost something that, like innocence, cannot be regained once it's gone...)

 

[BMiller52]

I think you've missed the point of what I believe chelle was trying to say. I don't know if I can express it accurately but it's more like a loss of innocence than a loss of money. (And that's just an attempt to find some kind of comparison. I'm not saying the Kings have actually lost any innocence. I'm saying they may have lost something that, like innocence, cannot be regained once it's gone...)

Like Artest etc. taints the team? Cuz if that's what you guys mean I can agree with that.

 

[VF21]

Not just Artest himself but all the turmoil that surrounds him. The idea we've somehow lowered our expectations of how a player should conduct himself on and off the court. It's a philosophical concept but it's a slippery slope. And, actually, I think the Kings started down it with Chris Webber's grand jury problems...

 

[BMiller52]

IMO the only solution for that is making a commitment to rid yourself of the "bad guys" like Artest. Portland did it by getting rid of Sheed, Damon, etc. It can be painful, it's usually accompanied by rebuilding, but I think it's the only solution. Then you have to go and get guys who are good guys and not just good players. It takes a while but then again it's not like we're the 96-98 Bulls who only put up with Rodman because he won them championships.

edit: And yeah I agree about all the negative attention Ron brings. It's a huge distraction for everyone. Fans don't want to hear about that we want to hear about Martin/Bibby and their accomplishments. It was amazing to see Mike hit 9 3s and instead all of the attention is on Ron. It's annoying and frustrating. Same with KMart's player of the week only to see Ron's issues be all over the news. He just brings too much negative attention and it brings down everyone, from the organization to his teammates to the fans.

 

[VF21]

IMO the only solution for that is making a commitment to rid yourself of the "bad guys" like Artest. Portland did it by getting rid of Sheed, Damon, etc. It can be painful, it's usually accompanied by rebuilding, but I think it's the only solution. Then you have to go and get guys who are good guys and not just good players. It takes a while but then again it's not like we're the 96-98 Bulls who only put up with Rodman because he won them championships.

Kind of.

The trick is to find a way to be just "bad" enough on the court to be really, really good without turning your team into a soap opera or America's Most Wanted episode.

 

[BMiller52]

Kind of.

The trick is to find a way to be just "bad" enough on the court to be really, really good without turning your team into a soap opera or America's Most Wanted episode.

Yeah, it is like trying to find players with that "swagger" I think it's called, but in our case the guy we found is absolutely insane.

 

[Padrino]

Not just Artest himself but all the turmoil that surrounds him. The idea we've somehow lowered our expectations of how a player should conduct himself on and off the court. It's a philosophical concept but it's a slippery slope. And, actually, I think the Kings started down it with Chris Webber's grand jury problems...

what is this, an episode of leave it to beaver?



a franchise is not a static thing. to try and avoid turmoil in the nba is as impossible as trying to avoid getting wet when it rains. the only real way to do it is to curl up indoors until the storm lets up. some storms are longer than others, though, so the kings are gonna have to get a little wet over the course of the next few years. they're gonna have to get their hands dirty. a franchise cannot control what a player does on and off the court. those are personal decisions made by individuals. and ron artest is indeed among the nuttiest individuals in the nba, but so what? when he's gone...he's gone. its not as if the sacramento kings pearly white image will be forever mustard-stained by the behavior of the king formerly known as tru warier. the nba is a business like anything else. you do a little house-cleaning as is necessary to weed out the bad seeds, and you move on. the portland trailblazers had it a lot worse than we did, and look at them now. they've got a bright future. it may not pan out, but the "jailblazers" are basically just a memory. its not impacting their present. one more year of mediocrity along with artest may be a ***** and a bore (and a boar), but its only one step in the process...

 

[VF21]

what is this, an episode of leave it to beaver?

No, it's people trying to express their opinions in a manner that others will understand.

a franchise is not a static thing. to try and avoid turmoil in the nba is as impossible as trying to avoid getting wet when it rains. the only real way to do it is to curl up indoors until the storm lets up. some storms are longer than others, though, so the kings are gonna have to get a little wet over the course of the next few years.

Okay the NBA is a storm. What's your point? It has nothing to do with what chelle and I were attempting to put into words.

they're gonna have to get their hands dirty. a franchise cannot control what a player does on and off the court. those are personal decisions made by individuals. and ron artest is indeed among the nuttiest individuals in the nba, but so what? when he's gone...he's gone.

A franchise may not be able to control what a player does OFF the court but they can certainly control what he does on the court. If nothing else, they can do what the Pacers eventually did and just not play him.

its not as if the sacramento kings pearly white image will be forever mustard-stained by the behavior of the king formerly known as tru warier.

It's not about an image being forever tarnished. It's about an image being damaged to the point where a percentage of the fan base just quits supporting it.

the nba is a business like anything else. you do a little house-cleaning as is necessary to weed out the bad seeds, and you move on.

Yes, the NBA is a business. And so are the Sacramento Kings. And the success of their business depends upon the willingness of fans to spend money to partake of their offerings. This latest episode with Artest, paired with the animal cruelty charges, have actually turned some fans away...and more could easily follow.

the portland trailblazers had it a lot worse than we did, and look at them now. they've got a bright future. it may not pan out, but the "jailblazers" are basically just a memory. its not impacting their present.

You might want to read up on that a bit more before you pronounce everything rosy in the city of the roses. Portland has had major difficulties shedding the Jailblazer image and their attendance took what might have been a mortal hit. Only time will tell if they can, in fact, survive.

one more year of mediocrity along with artest may be a ***** and a bore (and a boar), but its only one step in the process...

No. I'm not going to buy into that in any way. If you have a cancer, you cut it out. You don't allow it "one more year" to cause further damage.

Don't get me wrong. I like Ron Artest the player. I feel sorry for Ron Artest the human being. I just do not see that this situation is going to help the Sacramento Kings.

It's a difference in philosophies and perspectives, I suppose. I'm sure there are any number of fans like you who don't have a problem with Artest but, based on what I'm seeing both here and on other message boards, there are an equal number of fans like me who are just fed up with all the drama.

 

[Padrino]

No, it's people trying to express their opinions in a manner that others will understand. Sorry if it offends you.

it doesn't offend me. hence the

for the record, hypocrisy, ignorance, arrogance, apathy, war, and brussel sprouts offend me. it'd be hard to do so on a message board.

Okay the NBA is a storm. What's your point? It has nothing to do with what chelle and I were attempting to put into words.

of course it has nothing to do with what you and chelle were attempting to put into words. it was a metaphor for the lull the kings will be in the next few years. sh** happens. gm's don't make it as complicated as fans do. gm's scout talent. owners like the maloofs who have a lot of money and control scout dynamic personalities in the interest of generating publicity. they took a risk, and they'll reap the benefits, both negative and positive. that's all i was saying.

And you know this how exactly? A franchise may not be able to control what a player does OFF the court but they can certainly control what he does on the court. If nothing else, they can do what the Pacers eventually did and just not play him.

i know this because we live in america. people are allowed to make free choices away from their professions. it doesn't mean they always make the right choices (ie: vladimir radmanovic violating the terms of his contract by snowboarding, night club brawls, etc.), but the nba doesn't leash their players. as for on the court, ron's been playing to the tune of 18.8 pts, 6.6 rbs, and 3.3 asts per game. you can bench him, sure, but has he really been that much of a distraction this season, or is it the frustration of losing that's doing the talking? it'd be harder to bench ron artest if the kings were winning, for example, especially concerning they've retained his services for only a little over a year. you take risks, and you live with them. artest hasn't done anything on the court to violate the conditions he was brought here under (ie: starting sports' most infamous brawl).

It's not about an image being forever tarnished. It's about an image being damaged to the point where a percentage of the fan base just quits supporting it.

again, losing tends to do that, especially to fans who've been spoiled by the recent successes of a much better on-court product.

Oh really? The NBA is a business? Wow. I never thought of that.

maybe you have...maybe you haven't. it ain't my place to determine what other people are thinking. just pointing out that its business before its personal 99.9% of the time in professional sports. if it is at all possible, the kings will move ron artest, because its a move for the future of the franchise.

You might want to read up on that a bit more before you pronounce everything rosy in the city of the roses. Portland has had major difficulties shedding the Jailblazer image and their attendance took what might have been a mortal hit. Only time will tell if they can, in fact, survive.

i didn't pronounce that everything was rosy. all i said was they have a bright future with a young squad that has a fresh image. their attendance will rise as the product grows and improves. the jailblazers are, indeed, a memory. management has done its job. its up to the fans to do the rest.

No. I'm not going to buy into that in any way. If you have a cancer, you cut it out. You don't allow it "one more year" to cause further damage.

easier said than done. if it can be done, then i'm all for it. if it can't, you cut your losses and deal.

Don't get me wrong. I like Ron Artest the player. I feel sorry for Ron Artest the human being. I just do not see that this situation is going to help the Sacramento Kings.

it probably won't. but considering that the kings are in a transitional period, i don't see it hurting much, either. the next few seasons will be mediocre, at best, and during the first of those seasons, ron's contract status will be the least of management's worries.

It's a difference in philosophies and perspectives, I suppose. I'm sure there are any number of fans like you who don't have a problem with Artest but, based on what I'm seeing both here and on other message boards, there are an equal number of fans like me who are just fed up with all the drama.

i suppose its easy for me to ignore the drama. i just love the game of basketball, and what takes place between the sidelines and baselines is all that really matters to me.

 

[VF21]

Okay, you win.

One final thought, however? Once the well is poisoned it's too late to worry about the stuff being dumped into it.

Peace.

 

[Padrino]

Okay, you win.

hey, that's not fair! you were doing so well. i haven't had this stimulating of a conversation at kingsfans.com since chris webber was traded. losing tends to take the argument outta me...

 

[VF21]

hey, that's not fair! you were doing so well. i haven't had this stimulating of a conversation at kingsfans.com since chris webber was traded. losing tends to take the argument outta me...

You're young, grasshopper. You have the fiery passion of youth AND the atmosphere of college on your side.

I, on the other hand, am old and tire easily...not to mention forgetting the point I was trying to make.

I'm sure we'll clash again.