We've made an offer to Monta?

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AaronPDX said:
Take this for what it's worth. Some kid on Twitter claims to have spoken to Chris Mullin today:

Jonathan Hihi ‏@jonathanhihi 59m
... Also asked if Kings are gonna sign Monta. Says if he takes 8-9 million, yes. Anything else no.

May just be hopeful, but figured I'd post...lol
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It makes sense. Monta over values his worth. He should have taken the bucks extension if he wanted the money. He probably got similar offers from the teams. At $8-9 mil he would be at least a trade able asset, but I hate his fit. At $12 mil I don't see anyone wanting him. At $6-7 it would be a valuable deal.
 
AaronPDX said:
Take this for what it's worth. Some kid on Twitter claims to have spoken to Chris Mullin today:

Jonathan Hihi ‏@jonathanhihi 59m
... Also asked if Kings are gonna sign Monta. Says if he takes 8-9 million, yes. Anything else no.

May just be hopeful, but figured I'd post...lol
Click to expand...

Yeah, because I'm really sure Chris Mullin is gonna talk private Kings business to some guy in SF. He also said that Mullin told him HE (meaning Mullin) was the one who told the Kings to back off on the Iguodala deal. I'm crying BULL****. ;)

Go to Twitter and read some of @jonathanhihi's stuff. He's not exactly a rocket surgeon.
 
I would take Ellis at 3 years $8-$9 million tbh, he is an asset at that price(more than Thornton). Our best hope for Cousins changing his attitude is putting a winning team out there, and having a coach he respects. It seems like a lot on here would be content with another tanking season, but that will only frustrate Cousins even more. Getting Ellis at least lets Cousins know going into the season that the owners are trying to put a winning team out there.

Ellis, Vasquez, Landry, Mbah Moute, McLemore> Tyreke, Thornton, McLemore imo

makes us more balanced as well with a versatile scorer in Ellis, post scorer in Landry, role playing great defender in Mbah, and off the ball scorer/athletic finisher(potentially good defender, has length, quickness and agility).

But i will wait until our roster is final before making any evaluations, this roster is far from being final.

Its also great that we have an owner/FO that is trying to put a good product out there. Last season signing James Johnson was the highlight of our summer, just take that in for a second.....

Whether fans on here agree with the moves, at least it gets us talking, we can analyze stats, youtube videos etc. Last year at this time this board was a ghost town. At least Kings basketball is back and relevant.
 
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jcwkings said:
I would take Ellis at 3 years $8-$9 million tbh, he is an asset at that price(more than Thornton). Our best hope for Cousins changing his attitude is putting a winning team out there, and having a coach he respects. It seems like a lot on here would be content with another tanking season, but that will only frustrate Cousins even more. Getting Ellis at least lets Cousins know going into the season that the owners are trying to put a winning team out there.

Ellis, Vasquez, Landry, Mbah Moute, McLemore> Tyreke, Thornton, McLemore imo

makes us more balanced as well with a versatile scorer in Ellis, post scorer in Landry, role playing great defender in Mbah, and off the ball scorer/athletic finisher(potentially good defender, has length, quickness and agility).

But i will wait until our roster is final before making any evaluations, this roster is far from being final.

Its also great that we have an owner/FO that is trying to put a good product out there. Last season signing James Johnson was the highlight of our summer, just take that in for a second.....

Whether fans on here agree with the moves, at least it gets us talking, we can analyze stats, youtube videos etc. Last year at this time this board was a ghost town. At least Kings basketball is back and relevant.
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Pretty much sums my feeling as well.
 
jcwkings said:
Its also great that we have an owner/FO that is trying to put a good product out there. Last season signing James Johnson was the highlight of our summer, just take that in for a second.....
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Don't forget the great Aaron Brooks!!!!!!!!
 
OptimusRhyme said:
I read it in an ESPN article (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9463611/monta-ellis-pares-list-four-suitors) .. Im not sure where to find the full list. But I would be interested to see it aswell if anyone else knows how to get it.
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If there's a way to run an advanced search string on basketball-reference.com, I haven't figured it out. But there are 79 players who averaged at least 19ppg over their careers so I just went down the list and wrote down their career PER. It was a little tedious but didn't take all that long. The full list would take an entire page so I'm not going to post it here. I can PM it to you if you're interested. But here's the bottom of the list:

(lowest career PER average for players with at least 19ppg)

1. Jeff Malone - 19.04ppg - 15.2 PER
2. Darel Carrier - 20.03ppg - 15.6 PER
3. Jamal Mashburn - 19.06ppg - 15.7 PER
4. Hal Greer - 19.24ppg - 15.7 PER
5. Charlie Scott - 20.69ppg - 15.8 PER
6. Mike Mitchell - 19.78ppg - 16.7 PER
7. Monta Ellis - 19.45ppg - 16.8 PER

So Ellis actually comes out 7th by a hair. Interesting to note with this group: Charlie Scott, Darel Carrier, and Hal Greer are all missing blocks and steals from their career statistics because they played before 73 when those started being counted (Carrier and Greer for their whole career, Scott for the first 3 years) which means their PER is unfairly skewed down a bit. No excuses for Jeff Malone, Jamal Mashburn, Mike Mitchell, or Monta Ellis though. Hollinger rates a score of 15 PER to be league average, 16.5 PER as 3rd banana, 18 PER as a solid 2nd option, and 20 PER as a borderline All-Star so despite the high scoring totals, none of these guys were efficient enough to warrant 1st or 2nd option status. Here's the next group, for a little more context. I stopped when I got to Pistol Pete. Remember these are career averages so every one of these guys peaked with a higher PER than is noted here...

8. Levern Tart - 19.40ppg - 17.0 PER
9. Lou Hudson - 20.16ppg - 17.4 PER
10. Bob Verga - 20.23ppg - 17.5 PER
11. Glenn Robinson - 20.69ppg - 17.5 PER
12. John Havlicek - 20.78ppg - 17.5 PER
13. Dave Bing - 20.34ppg - 17.6 PER
14. Mitch Richmond - 21.00ppg - 17.6 PER
15. Elvin Hayes - 20.96ppg - 17.7 PER
16. Jack Twyman - 19.25ppg - 17.8 PER
17. Isiah Thomas - 19.23ppg - 18.1 PER
18. Kiki Vanderweghe - 19.73ppg - 18.4 PER
19. Pete Maravich - 24.24ppg - 18.4 PER

Interesting to see Mitch show up on the list. He's 37th on the career scoring average list with 21ppg though, which is highest of everybody listed here except Pete Maravich who is 20th at 24.24ppg. Also his last three seasons in Sacramento were the best of his career by far (19.2 PER, 21.6 PER, 20.4 PER) which helps explain why he's remembered so fondly here. And since I wanted to dig a little deeper on Ellis, I looked at his season by season PER scores and compared them with Evans to see if there were any trends. Evans' career averages to-date are 17.5ppg and 16.9 PER:

Ellis - (06, 11.1 PER) (07, 15.0 PER) (08, 19.0 PER) (09, 14.5 PER) (10, 16.7 PER) (11, 18.6 PER) (12, 17.5 PER) (13, 16.2 PER)
Evans - (10, 18.2 PER) (11, 14.4 PER) (12, 16.4 PER) (13, 18.1 PER)

So Ellis has played 8 seasons now and he bested his career average PER in only 3 of them. In other words, he's the very definition of a 3rd banana offensive player. The defense skews his value down though. Evans' numbers would look significantly better if he could wipe out his terrible sophomore season, but he looks like a good bet to be a solid 2nd option in the future as he hasn't yet reached his prime and has 2 seasons of 18 PER already. One last thing I noted from this, just because I've always suspected as much, Defensive Win Shares are an absolutely atrocious stat. Ellis' skyrocketed from 0.9 in 2012 to 3.3 in 2013 just by moving to a good defensive team.

Oh yeah, and now for the really good news:

Cousins - (11, 14.6 PER) (12, 21.7 PER) (13, 20.2 PER)

Folks, we have ourselves an All-Star!
 
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jalfa said:
here's the list.
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Two things:

(1) How do you run a search on basketball-reference like that? I've been trying to figure that out.
(2) I used the combined NBA/ABA scoring average list [here] which has a minimum 'games played per season' and 'total points scored' filter and I used the combined NBA/ABA PER averages not just the NBA only PER which is why my list comes up a little different than yours.

EDIT: Nevermind, I figured it out. I was just looking in the wrong place. :)
 
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I'll make a guess that if a s/t is involved it might involve IT,JT,PPat or Jimmer.. those are just the cheap contracts of value we have at positions of redundancy. As Brick and Gary said hopefully JT stays
 
While i like PER, it's almost exclusively an offensive-based statistic. It completely ignore defensive contribution (as SPG, BPG don't indicate the defensive acumen of a player very well). Just take a look at any defensive specialist type (Bowen, Christie, Allen) and you'll mainly see PER calling those guys "average players". When really, they were amongst the top individual defenders during their playing careers
 
The_Jamal said:
While i like PER, it's almost exclusively an offensive-based statistic. It completely ignore defensive contribution (as SPG, BPG don't indicate the defensive acumen of a player very well). Just take a look at any defensive specialist type (Bowen, Christie, Allen) and you'll mainly see PER calling those guys "average players". When really, they were amongst the top individual defenders during their playing careers
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that's fairly a propos nothing, though, unless you want to say Ellis contributes anything on that end.
 
The_Jamal said:
While i like PER, it's almost exclusively an offensive-based statistic. It completely ignore defensive contribution (as SPG, BPG don't indicate the defensive acumen of a player very well). Just take a look at any defensive specialist type (Bowen, Christie, Allen) and you'll mainly see PER calling those guys "average players". When really, they were amongst the top individual defenders during their playing careers
Click to expand...

Oh I completely agree, it's entirely an offensive stat. PER was brought up in this case to question Ellis' credentials as a top level scorer. Plus, as jalfa said, we've already discussed Ellis' defense at length and it's pretty much consensus that he is somewhere between bad and abysmal.
 
hrdboild said:
If there's a way to run an advanced search string on basketball-reference.com, I haven't figured it out. But there are 79 players who averaged at least 19ppg over their careers so I just went down the list and wrote down their career PER. It was a little tedious but didn't take all that long. The full list would take an entire page so I'm not going to post it here. I can PM it to you if you're interested. But here's the bottom of the list:

(lowest career PER average for players with at least 19ppg)

1. Jeff Malone - 19.04ppg - 15.2 PER
2. Darel Carrier - 20.03ppg - 15.6 PER
3. Jamal Mashburn - 19.06ppg - 15.7 PER
4. Hal Greer - 19.24ppg - 15.7 PER
5. Charlie Scott - 20.69ppg - 15.8 PER
6. Mike Mitchell - 19.78ppg - 16.7 PER
7. Monta Ellis - 19.45ppg - 16.8 PER

So Ellis actually comes out 7th by a hair. Interesting to note with this group: Charlie Scott, Darel Carrier, and Hal Greer are all missing blocks and steals from their career statistics because they played before 73 when those started being counted (Carrier and Greer for their whole career, Scott for the first 3 years) which means their PER is unfairly skewed down a bit. No excuses for Jeff Malone, Jamal Mashburn, Mike Mitchell, or Monta Ellis though. Hollinger rates a score of 15 PER to be league average, 16.5 PER as 3rd banana, 18 PER as a solid 2nd option, and 20 PER as a borderline All-Star so despite the high scoring totals, none of these guys were efficient enough to warrant 1st or 2nd option status. Here's the next group, for a little more context. I stopped when I got to Pistol Pete. Remember these are career averages so every one of these guys peaked with a higher PER than is noted here...

8. Levern Tart - 19.40ppg - 17.0 PER
9. Lou Hudson - 20.16ppg - 17.4 PER
10. Bob Verga - 20.23ppg - 17.5 PER
11. Glenn Robinson - 20.69ppg - 17.5 PER
12. John Havlicek - 20.78ppg - 17.5 PER
13. Dave Bing - 20.34ppg - 17.6 PER
14. Mitch Richmond - 21.00ppg - 17.6 PER
15. Elvin Hayes - 20.96ppg - 17.7 PER
16. Jack Twyman - 19.25ppg - 17.8 PER
17. Isiah Thomas - 19.23ppg - 18.1 PER
18. Kiki Vanderweghe - 19.73ppg - 18.4 PER
19. Pete Maravich - 24.24ppg - 18.4 PER

Interesting to see Mitch show up on the list. He's 37th on the career scoring average list with 21ppg though, which is highest of everybody listed here except Pete Maravich who is 20th at 24.24ppg. Also his last three seasons in Sacramento were the best of his career by far (19.2 PER, 21.6 PER, 20.4 PER) which helps explain why he's remembered so fondly here. And since I wanted to dig a little deeper on Ellis, I looked at his season by season PER scores and compared them with Evans to see if there were any trends. Evans' career averages to-date are 17.5ppg and 16.9 PER:

Ellis - (06, 11.1 PER) (07, 15.0 PER) (08, 19.0 PER) (09, 14.5 PER) (10, 16.7 PER) (11, 18.6 PER) (12, 17.5 PER) (13, 16.2 PER)
Evans - (10, 18.2 PER) (11, 14.4 PER) (12, 16.4 PER) (13, 18.1 PER)

So Ellis has played 8 seasons now and he bested his career average PER in only 3 of them. In other words, he's the very definition of a 3rd banana offensive player. The defense skews his value down though. Evans' numbers would look significantly better if he could wipe out his terrible sophomore season, but he looks like a good bet to be a solid 2nd option in the future as he hasn't yet reached his prime and has 2 seasons of 18 PER already. One last thing I noted from this, just because I've always suspected as much, Defensive Win Shares are an absolutely atrocious stat. Ellis' skyrocketed from 0.9 in 2012 to 3.3 in 2013 just by moving to a good defensive team.

Oh yeah, and now for the really good news:

Cousins - (11, 14.6 PER) (12, 21.7 PER) (13, 20.2 PER)

Folks, we have ourselves an All-Star!
Click to expand...


Thanks alot for this post hrdboild. Very informative. Surprised too see The Rock on that list..
 
Section 101 said:
Translation: My agent screwed up by not forcing me to take the Bucks extension.
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Exactly. Although Monta's ego really is comical, and its quite possible he thought he would hit the market and be coveted right there alongside Paul and Howard. May not have been his agent who misjudged. Now he's scrambling to find anyone who will pay him anything close to what he lost, and so its blame the agent time.
 
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sdballer said:
Isn't Fegan cousin's agent?
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yup. but this kinda thing tends to be overstated in the contemporary nba. these days there are only a few power agents that control the majority of the top shelf talent across the entire league, so it's not terribly useful to try and connect those dots...
 
VF21 said:
This dumping on Vivek is, IMHO, not cool at all. It's kind of embarrassing to me, truth be told. I'd like to think Kings fans are better than this. That we do not sink to ridiculous insults against someone.
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Totally agree. Acting like a bunch of spoiled brats.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
It probably also means that the Monta Ellis Whoopstakes is going to drag out over another few days at least, I imagine.
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While I'd like to think it means teams (especially ours) coming to their senses the reality is that once it becomes a competition history shows that NBA teams generally get MORE irrational in pursuing an asset.

Moving Thornton would make getting Monta less painful, and especially if Monta is only signed for 2 years instead of 3 or 4. After all, Thornton is an ending contract after next season if he isn't moved before then.

What would be really painful is if we did a sign-and-trade with some ending contracts (Thomas, Patterson, Salmons, Fredette) or amnestied Salmons to acquire Ellis because it eliminates a lot of cap flexibility going forward to sign a guy that (1) is inefficient (2) doesn't mesh with what is obviously the core of the team in the minds of the front office - McLemore and Cousins and (3) I personally don't like watching play.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
It probably also means that the Monta Ellis Whoopstakes is going to drag out over another few days at least, I imagine.
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After Bynum decides and the possible Teague/Jennings situations get worked out I'm sure Monta is going to just have to take the best he can get.

Free agents are running out of big money slots. Monta and/or AK47 may have to settle for modest deals in the 7-9 range
 
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